Abstinence vs Moderation Are AA Members Lying, smoking weed, etc… and even Drinking and Still Taking Cakes?

alcohol

Anon, a resident blogger here has been documenting his journey, leaving AA,  after being abstinent in AA for 17 years. He is successfully moderating and proving AA’s…jails, institutions and  death, and destruction projection are all hogwash.

What would a meeting look and sound like if perhaps 25% of the room came out and told such stories, stating that they could take it or leave it, that AA and its 12 steps didn’t really help with life issues anymore after years of not drinking  and in fact staying in AA a long time made them feel so uptight and angry it was unbearable, so they drink moderately, smoke pot moderately, take pills here and there and do what ever…..moderately. Anon…you got me thinking and it would be a very funny scene for sure !!!:) Would they start cross talking and yelling at each other. Would there be a brawl like in an old western movie? Chairs flying….women yelling….Cowboy hats ….old western bar fight

I found his last two posts very insightful and I felt they need to be put here on the front page.

  1. Today is a good day to check into ye ole Moderation forum for an update. Moderate drinking after 35 years exposure and 15 years abstinence in AA? No problem what so ever. No signs of disease, compulsion, and no aspiration for self inflicted incarceration in the AA concentration camp, Stalag 12.
    I have alcohol in the house and little desire to drink it. Occasionally it’s fun to have a drink and even get a bit tipsy. It’s not fun to drink every day or feel tired after even the slightest excess.
    I guess my point is this; drinking and tobacco are enjoyable unless they cause an ill feeling. I have no desire to use either through that point.

  2. I went out to eat the other day with an old-timer friend with deep roots in AA. Three of the five members at the table admitted to using either weed, hallucinogens and or prescription drugs to ease anger. All take cakes in AA; all are well adjusted, successful, and wealthy.

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33 thoughts on “Abstinence vs Moderation Are AA Members Lying, smoking weed, etc… and even Drinking and Still Taking Cakes?

  1. YES!!!, I know people what go to AA and NA what do smoke pot and drink in moderation and clam there selves to be sober, I used to be one of them but i am not now I am clean and sober and I do not celebrate at all. I dont even work the program, I just go for the free coffee and donates, and PISS everyone off,
    I am a part of the 99 percent, AA sucks, NA is bullshit,
    I associate with the relapersers the people what are the 99 percent, and hate AA and NA

  2. Lying ass hypocrates! Newcomers are suffering thru anguish at those tables all for some shyt that the so called old timers are not “rigorously” being honest about? I ALWAYS suspected that. Thank you for giving us an example of successful moderation Anon. Ive been out of of AA for over 2 months now. I feel better than Ive felt in a long…long time. NO OBSESSION. By AA definition I should be dead by now…but rumors of my impending death have been GREATLY exagerated by AA.

    • Massive,

      Wow, this was an excellent analysis of AA . Talk about hitting the nail on the head. In 2.5 yrs this has got to be the best post I have ever read.

      If anyone is questioning the truth about AA; read this. He speaks the TRUTH. Dont let this happen to you.

      So much more I would like to say but I have to go to work. I havent read all the comments but i intend to do so. I would like to support him.

      Thanks for posting this. Ive come a long way since leaving; but this helped me even more.

      • Sue, thanks I found it by googleling Is AA dangerous and it showed up on page one with leavingaa. I am trying to figure out how to post on his blog and contact him but I can not ….I will keep trying. I agree. Very well written. I am sending to pp I know who are seriously in deprogramming mode.

        • Massive,

          Isnt google great! Even though my experience was different (as you know); There were so many issues that i could relate to and wanted to expand on. I was never a good stepper and I cant say I gave it my all. If they gave out grades; I would have received an “F”. Today, Im glad I failed.

          Either way, what they preach in AA still had a huge influence on my life for decades. Anyone who figures it out (however long that takes); before going off the deep end should pat themselves on the back for their inner strength.

          Im not sure; but i think it was tougher to make the decision 20 years ago. In my day, AA was considered the miracle cure by most of society. I guess it still is pushed that way; but I dont think AA was as rigid and bizarre years ago. Yet i always thought most of it was very odd but had a tendency to blame myself. Wonder why! 🙂 Maybe today; its bit easier to see the light (not sure), for those who still have the ability to think for themselves when they end up in AA. Whatever condition their in, they prefer to basically run their own lives. I think I always did but the odds were against me.

          Also, I was never exposed to any other opinions. I had no access to the internet until 8 months after I made the decision to leave. Just the way life goes.

          I will check out the the site again when I have time. I never tried to log on.

    • Very REAL. Thanks for sharing that.

      HONESTY: That is what I liked about his post. His honesty is disarming and insightful. He shares different details, but such a similar story to many I have read here.

      I can’t imagine having been in AA longer than the 18months I did and having such a solid basis in my own self-hood as he obviously still has. They had me all jacked up! I still can’t believe that mess…

      It is very encouraging when people who have been in AA for years and years leave and come to tell us the Truth about it; because as a perpetual newcomer…you are left to wonder…to doubt. They get into your head with that skunky-topsy-turvy-mind scruvy and it lingers…

      The effects fade as you build more time and space between your butt and those damned tables…but sometimes you may find yourself…QUESTIONING…

      Well, at least I still do from time to time…(and it is the damnest most ILLOGICAL thing!)

      It happens mostly when I allow myself to get over-tired…stressed…

      Were they right about me?

      Are they right about alcoholism?

      Am I dying from terminal uniqueness?

      If I get a lil wine tonight does that mean I am traveling on that eventual and AA prophesied road to jail, the nut-house and sure death?

      Is my best thinking now leading me to the worst outcome?

      Should I try to paste my Big Book back together?

      Am I thinking what I’m thinking because I have a thinking problem and can’t trust the brain that is thinking what I am thinking because I should not even be thinking at all?

      Should I go crawling back?

      Hmmmm…

      Hmmmm….

      FACK NAWW

      😀

      I dig bein a grown up again!

  3. Right…right… 🙂 I am, however, a different grown up than I was prior to AA. I feel less innocent and less easily deceived. I dont trust smiles…or hugs or friendly faces. I still feel a bit alienated from the rest of the world. There is a closeness with humanity in general that has been stolen from me. When you leave AA what was destroyed by AA is not suddenly restored. For instance, I do not think the friendship my mother and I once had will EVER be the same. I am not unchanged. I just dont feel the same. I have lost and I’ve gained. I am simply a different grown up now. I am not worse… I GUESS; just different. Life feels more precious…more important and demanding of AUTHENTICITY. I dont feel like playing games or biting my tongue. No BS. Most people, AA or non AA are so full of BS… Now after leaving AA I feel far far less patience for BS. Is that good? I wonder…but I dont care…

    • Hmmmm?
      Yeah. I don’t trust people so easily nowadays. I am really suspicious about ideologies, I guess I am burnt by aa. I am not so innocent nowadays and you could say that I have lost some of my innocence and that I miss its beauty. But ya get older and wiser. BS never works. And in the end we all have to go find something that does work. I have found that simply not drinking alcohol no matter what works pretty well.

      • Yeah…it is a blow to the soul, AA.

        I thought I had already had enough of those ‘blows to the soul’ to last a life time. Luckily, I have already learned to navigate thru the world of potential predators. I think that is what saved me from the 13 Stepper men. I scared them. My brambles are always up. I quickly got a reputation as a woman not to mess with after I went on at a table one day saying something like, “Men and their bicks are often the main reason women end up drankin to damned much in the first place! Some times a gal need a fackin drink just not to cut a bick!”

        Bah Ha Ha! You should have seen their faces! PRICELESS! 😀

        Actually, I was just testing them because my sponsor had told me I could say anything I wanted to share and no one would judge or attack me. So, I wanted to see how obnoxious I could be. No one said anything…but I was BRAND DAMN NEW… You KNOW how that is.

        As a survivor of molestation as a child and rape as a teen…I was none too quick to let any of the men slither up to close beside me. I’m kind of ‘gitchy’ about that until I get to know that man and feel a comfortable VIBE around him. Cause in my book, drink or no drink…a stiffy don’t think. 😉 And I did not think not one of those men were all good and harmless simply because they claimed not to be drinking…and I NEVER really believed that either because I could smell old liquor deep in their skin sometimes… How the hell does someone smell like liquor if they have not had a drink in 10…15…20+ some odd years?

        Now after AA, I can barely even trust other kind women. ( My sponsor(s) REALLY worked me over…) I find myself second guessing everyone. Hearing their words…and wondering what they are REALLY saying… It’s gets TIRING…

        My sponsor acted so kind to me…but she actually RESENTED me horribly. ( And I ain’t never done shyt to that blitch!)

        I stay home more. I don’t talk much on the phone anymore. That way I don’t run the chance of offending anyone with my…my…” ME-NESS”

        They’ve said here that it just takes time. Okay.

        I really do not want to allow those cult-zombie-freaks to take me from myself. In my adult years I had worked thru a lot of the childhood and teen trauma. I’ve been a fun, creative gal to talk to and hang out with…

        I used to be a lot of fun…but not so much anymore.

        I am sad.

        But I know I have to keep moving FORWARD.

        So, I still try to relate to people here and there.

        I have connected with some genuine, cool people on here. That has been a BLESSING…

        Massive and AntiDenial are two ROCKIN GALS! I feel particularly blessed to have met them and been given an opportunity to get to know them a little better… They talk to me like a person…using REAL LANGUAGE and not that stunted redundantly mind-numbing AA-speak…

        I LOVE that!

        I am coming to realize that my sponsors and my few lil AA friends were all an illusion; because they are not REAL PEOPLE. They have to act the way that they do. They have to treat people poorly. They are not there. They are shells…sheople… Bill W’s flock. They are thoroughly AA mind controlled and indoctrinated.

        I ought to just be HAPPY that I got out of there without killing myself—REALLY.

        And as I learn how other people have been treated, sexually taken advantage of, robbed and even murdered–it breaks my heart.

        It’s bad enough that people go to AA and do not get any REAL help, but to go and be physically, mentally, financially and spiritually harmed? WICKED-EVIL

        Well…

        That’s my wahhh-rant for the day.

        Please view and “LIKE” the Karla Brada Story on YouTube… I will be posting my name as
        ” AAMurderOfKarlaBrada ” until the video hits 1,000 views for the month of Feb.

        This case deserves attention…it will save lives.

        http://youtu.be/uABc5vUGuGY

        Thanks to all who read this & view + LIKE the video…and please SHARE the link with others if you can.

        Yeah…it is a blow to the soul, AA.

        • CLARIFICATION: Now, I’ve not had the pleasure of actually meeting Massive & Anti-Denial IN PERSON…but in just speaking with them they have been more REAL and more GENUINE than the AA zombies were with me—even after sitting together at meetings and resturants, going shopping together, going to events…whatever…They just were not ever nearly as real as the powerhouse women who have built Leaving AA and NA Daytona have been…

          How could they be?

          Though I do hope to get back to CA this year and try my first and last In and Out burger on that glorious YOU ARE NOT POWERLESS bus stop bench with at least one if not BOTH of y’all! 😀

          • You threw me off with the new handle:).n Hey I love the new video you did. More info on Karla and new info on other murder victims.

            I am glad to have got to know you a bit more too. You seem like quite the little powerhouse yourself! I just do not understand AA’s rational in telling people to stop working and other important endeavors only to focus on sobriety. I would think logic would tell as well that keeping yourself busy doing healthy things for your mind, body and soul is the best medicine. staying away from certain environments is good advice- but AA did not originate that obvious advice.

            I cant believe your sponsor to not work on what you are so good at. Plus people do need to make a living and stay afloat. Many people turn to substances over the stress of finances. So AA tells people to give up jobs and healthy hobbies just so you sit in on meetings and do service work? How self serving of AA and NA!

            Thanks for all that you have contributed to getting the word out about AA, and hope you are also doing other things for yourself that you were not doing before.

  4. Thank you AntiDenial. Seriously, you and Massive crossed Paths with me at a pivotal moment in my life. I just needed some REAL FOLKS to say something contrary to the entire BS that was overwhelming me so at that time. You guys did that for me.

    At the time, it was all too much for me because I allowed myself to be convinced that giving a great modicum of my personal power over to these fools was somehow going to save me from the Adult-Boogey-Man or some such contrived Beast from Bill W’s delirium tremens. One has NO IDEA of what AA really is until they get in it. It is just NOTHING like what the public thinks it is…

    ***If you are new to this site and you are “thinking” of leaving AA…read on please…read on and think on…

    When I tried to tell my AA sponsors who I really was and what I was interested in REALLY doing; I was stifled. I was told that I needed to concentrate on my “sobriety”.

    My sponsors never took the time to get to really know me, my talents or what gives Meaning to my life. They saw me as what the BB told them to see me as…nothing more and nothing less. It was pure objectification. I was just a pigeon, a newcomer, a baby…a walking disease.

    I often felt that they did not see me or treat me like a real person. Today, I wonder why I allowed that…or why I never said anything. It’s bizarre!

    They told me that I was really a child in an adult’s body. I told them that I did not believe that. They laughed in my face. “You’re an alcoholic. It doesn’t matter what you believe. Just do what we tell you to do!”

    I did ask them to help me live My Life as My Life rather than to tear my life down and build it back up into what they thought it should be. I thought that I just needed to develop new skill sets and coping mechanisms. They scoffed. They said that, that was not how The Program works and that my “new life” promised to be a MIRACLE and better than anything I had ever before dreamed of. They said to just…

    Pray…pray…pray…
    & OBEY…

    They would look at me rather askew when I told them that I did not necessarily want a life that necessitated me not being myself…

    “You have no self; if you do, you don’t even know who she is. Can’t you just surrender? Girl, go down!” My sponsor would often say such as that.

    Thinking too much was my biggest transgression from their perspectives. They forbad me to even read anything more outside of approved program literature…for my own good and the sake of my sobriety–naturally…

    They said that my writing made me think too much and that I needed to get a “regular job”…even at Burger King to prove that I was willing to go to any lengths for my sobriety. They thought it was my ego, but I knew it was not. I have worked very hard to become a full person in my life despite all obstacles.

    Ain’t nobody never GAVE me nothin!

    Years and years ago…I went on welfare with very young children after I divorced my abusive, repugnant ex husband. I worked menial jobs and went back to school. It took years for me to pull myself and my children up out of the wasteland we were in…through the Grace of God…we emerged.

    I earned degrees and held a respected position. I was paid a very nice salary. But I never liked the games, the politics and the corruption I witnessed in that system. Money is a useful tool; but without my soul…there is no use to anything that I do.

    I left it all behind when my oldest child started getting very ill.

    I decided to start my own business and work as a freelance content developer. I did alright. You have to ALWAYS be on your toes when you work independently. You have to constantly market yourself, produce work and far too often turn into a collection agency for dead beats who are always trying to steal your work…

    It’s stressful.

    I am not a lazy person… I have worked harder as an independent contractor than I ever worked as an employee.

    I hate being an employee. My temperament is simply ill-suited for it. I see through BS and as I get older I just have less and less patience for the games that people often pay.

    My AA sponsor, both newly retired afetr working fo ryears and years in controlled, menial systems, could not understand my nature at all. They decided to change this about me. Thus, my NIGHTMARE!

    It took a lifetime for me to develop into the person that I am. I’m alright. I do not feel that I am a bad, horrible person…or at least I feel less and less so as I get farther and farther away from them.

    I do feel stupid for what I allowed them to do to me; quite foolish…

    They wanted to break me down, strip me naked and make me into an AA devotee and/or success story… And if they could not do that, then they wanted (and still want) me to just die. As long as AA is evidenced as RIGHT…they don’t care who lives or who dies. AA must go on!

    So, that is why I am so open to add this cause to my Life’s Mission List. I want people to know what these 12 step organizations are doing as I learn. This is all still so new to me, but I’ve learned so much already. I want people who search for answers as I did when I first got slimed into AA to find them much more quickly and easily than I did.

    AA almost killed me.

    People deserve to know that there are alternatives.

    (That’s why on my blog, my web site and my FB page I take such a hard line regarding me ever communicating DIRECTLY with those pit-sticky stepper folk. They stink right off the damned screen!
    Everything they say has that air of faux retarded superiority from a hypnotized parrot in a cage who thinks it’s flying free. You don’t know whether to just ignore or B-B it out of its dumb blissful misery.
    If you notice, I never address some of the retarded stink-boxes who comment on this site (or others)…when I notice what they are all about…I just glide right thru their uselessness on to the next poster. I have a special message qued up for them if/when they hit “CONTACT” on my site:
    http://tinyurl.com/MessageToSteppers

    WHY are these characters on a site called Leaving AA for goodness sake?
    WHEN did they (or will they) speak with their sponsor (and/or tables) about reading and posting on such sites?
    WHO told them we give a flying fart about any jack-leg comment they make or what they “think” after chanting WE THINK NOT! every dog damned day?)
    HOW stupid are they going to feel when they keep reading these sites and the TRUTH finally hits them right between their blinded eyes and they realize that AA really is a bunch of made up bullspit by some drunk guys in 1939 who plagarized a lot of it from Oxford Group, gave it a name and printed up books to sell so their tacky asses could make some money?
    WHERE will they go when they do not die, the hospitals have no beds and the last asylum closes?

    I’ll tell you where….

    They will come HERE.

    Where WE are…

    The Truth will be all that is left.

    Alcohol over-use and drug mis-use are behaviors that one can overcome; some times alone, some times with help.

    One has the POWER to choose.

    May We Find Freedom Now

    http://youtu.be/uABc5vUGuGY

    • Most people cannot understand the mindset of the entrepreneur. Many envy it as well. I know as I have been an entrepreneur for decades. I do work longer than a regular job, but I love the variety of things I have done over the years. But what I found perplexing and sad was how many people resented you if they felt you had some modicum of success under your belt. That you did it without working a 9-5. I always hated the politics as well.

      I bet it was not much different for you in AA. You say you have more than 1 degree and obtained it as a single Mom. I just cannot say enough how proud I am of you for accomplishing that, and I do not even know you that well. AA should have focused on your strengths, not your weaknesses. It would seem to me they had much to work with, as far as helping you getting you back on track. Many have to start from scratch with no marketable skills. For them to tell you to work at Burger King when you had the education level seems bizarre. Not to say that I do not believe that people need to do what they need to do- and working at Burger King is very hard work indeed. You would think they might even suggest some happy medium until you reached other goals.

      It is possible they were jealous of you, or might not of even believed your story. It seems obvious you are a very intelligent, resourceful, talented, caring human being.

      I hope as far as the reason why you were in AA in the first place is working itself out. I sense since coming back from zombie land, you are doing better. I hope so. Don’t let anyone take away from what you have done in school and raising your kids. It seems their is not much you can’t do once you put your mind to something.

      Instead of not using the brains God gave you that AA tells you not to use, actually use the brains God gave you. Like Tom Horvath from SMART said- it is not your best thinking that got you to AA- it is your WORST thinking that got you there!

  5. HI all. I have been in a workshop all weekend and boy am I tired. It was a Producers Doc workshop…Thank you for all the love 🙂 illbefree. Now about leaving aa and not wanting people to hug me and not trusting strangers, religions, anything that could be a cult and living in AA I sometimes feel steppers are everywhere. I had to pitch my idea for my film in front of 21 people I didnt know. Even the teacher was shocked when I gave my pitch. He said it was a film about scandal. Only one guy was cold to me and he had a trailer/sizzle reel about following a yoga guru on a motor cycle up the Himalayas. As I watched his film I felt glad that I would never join any religion, cult or anything liken to AA ever again. I was waiting for the guru to tell them to jump ….like Jim Jones ..:) but it made me super glad I was gone from AA.
    I agree, Sue and Steve…AA gets deeply embedded. But it is possible to deprogram.

    Here is my deprogramming tip of the night.

    I do not use any word or phrase that I used in AA. I always use the word alcohol and drug over use…not addict …or alcoholic. I despise those words.

    Also Where can can I find a source fact that Bill Wilson was a 13 stepper. Who was it who wrote about it. Was it Francis Hartigan’s book?

    • Massive,

      “I agree, Sue and Steve…AA gets deeply embedded. But it is possible to deprogram.

      Here is my deprogramming tip of the night.

      I do not use any word or phrase that I used in AA. I always use the word alcohol and drug over use…not addict …or alcoholic. I despise those words. ”

      I completely agree and do not use those words. Even if it were the truth; AA is not the answer.

        • Massive,

          Sadly, very true. I guess I have come to realize who I can reason with and I can spot instantly those who are close minded and believe only the good they here. However, I want you to know that I always try and Im aware when to stop trying. Im referring to people who have never been there.

    • @ Massive
      For primary sources I think you would be best going to Orange for that. However isn’t the fact that this organisation had to create a ‘Founders Watch Committee’ a dead giveaway? Also I believe that many women employed at the cult HQ as ‘typists” could not even ‘TYPE’.
      Also Bills will where he gives Helen Wynne 10% royalties from the BB is pretty damning.
      There are also stories about Bill sitting in meetings with women on his knee.Or a couple of them, one on either side.
      Excuse me, but wasn’t this supposed to be a stop drinking program?

  6. Steve,

    I would like to add that “leavingaa’ has been very helpful also. Anytime we confront our past with AA, no matter how difficult it can be; it’s a step in the right direction. Thank you to Massive for immediately creating this forum. (:

  7. @ Sue. I hear you. But Ilse and Mark were perfectly within their rights to just call it quits and move on. None of us are owed anything. This whole thing that we are doing right now in cyberspace is a blessing. I treat it as such.
    None of my friends or family get this whole thing at all.
    They think aa is how you get sober and if you don’t wanna go there then you just wanna keep drinking.
    It’s not just me that is finding it hard to deprogram, it is the whole of society!!!! They really did a number on everyones thinking. Most certainly in the English speaking world where the American influence is strongest.
    But lately I have learnt that ethnicity is a factor in this. How many Chinese did you ever see in meetings? Not many I bet. They get alcoholism just like us. But they don’t buy into the powerlessness shit and move on. We can learn a lot from Asians.

  8. I spent about 18 months in NA being super involved and doing everything to work a good program as they say. My main problems have been alcohol but my husband was in NA and already knew the people so I went there. I fought my own instincts to do it , telling myself it was just ego lying to me, because my life was a bit of a mess and I was in a very bad place, vulnerable and unsure, eager to make it right, ready to believe that my best thinking got me there and I couldn’t trust myself. Big.Mistake. In time I saw that things were never as bad as NA made it out to be. I read somewhere about rewriting our own history to make a good 12 Step “share”, I can see that happening as I almost did it myself. Turning everything into being about addiction when it’s not. But the fact is, that once the alcohol is removed and some healing time experienced, things looked brighter as I just stayed free of intoxicants. I worked out my shame and did some inner child work, all on my own, imagine that, using some books and visiting the houses of childhood. Then I started wondering what these people’s problem was that they had to act the way they did. Why was I so depressed? On paper, things looked good! Well it was right under my nose. Half formed thoughts crystallized into fullness with the realizations of how petty, mean, shallow, uneducated and desperate these people were. They appeared to me as caricatures of the desperate demon who is losing his grip on the host like in a horror movie, it was the strangest thing. It became so obvious that they would like nothing better than to own my soul and turn me into a host for their evil little religion of stupidity. Like cows who suddenly become…wolf pack leaders. They’re still just a cow but since there’s nobody running things, they can act like a wolf. They never had any power in their lives until NA, and can get away with inappropriate behaviors and “keep coming back”. I had been rushing thither and yon, doing service work, inconveniencing my child, spending too much on conventions, stressing out over the somewhat illiterate group reports, just being a jackass really but I didn’t think so, I was all about service. They wanted to run my life for me, own my thoughts, know every detail, pick my pocket, all while telling me I was a piece of shit, because I had originally told them that I was! I let them do it to me. I’m still asking myself why. And get this, I just got offered a gently used, really nice gas grill by one of these people through my husband’s sponsor. I would rather use a twelve dollar hibachi thanks or some sticks and a pack of matches. 🙂 Better to live in a house with sticks and a pack of matches and own your soul than use the expensive gas grill of evil and be enslaved. Anyway, the one thing I came away with is knowledge of the value of my own soul and self, belief in myself that gets stronger every day. Thanks for being here, 2 years ago, now, whatever. It’s still appreciated.

  9. eliza- hi and welcome !> SO many good points and was to express what many of feel but can not always put into words as its all is so bizarre.

    Unfortunately AA and NA are huge in America and LA, so for that I hope to stop all the coercion with courts. Then AA will shrink as it should reflect many of us leaving.

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