Attention- Airline Pilots, Doctors, Lawyers and Nurses who Hate Alcoholics Anonymous we need you …

Old pilots picI have now been contacted by my 3rd Airline Pilot who is furious about AA coercion which my lawyer is saying is really Extortion.

I have a journalist who wants to talk to you. If you are willing to speak up publicly even better. ALL is good…

We are talking about getting you all connected so you can sue the FAA and/or the Airlines that has the EAP that forced you to an AA rehab, AA treatment and or an AA Psychiatrist who charges you $1,500.00 for an hour ( have been informed he was charged $2,500.)  pretty steep AA fees….so you can get cleared to work again ….fly  again….etc. OMG what BULLSHIT THIS IS!!!

If you are a DOCTOR…two young attractive doctors

I have a question… who could be sued….THE ASAM. the AMA and your employer who told you , that you had to go there.  I’m not sure but starting with your EAP employer….possibly.

The next Idea is about suing the courts..( the City )  for DUI coercion in a Class action lawsuit which was suggested to me by a reporter while I was in Court today. Then taking it all  the way to our State Supreme Courts and then to the Supreme court for a ruling that you have to offer Secular options. We are not in Saudia Arabia. We have a 1st Amendment. They are breaking it every day in all the courts all day long.

 

Its hard to sit in a court and hear a judge say this. I followed one man out and gave him my literature. He was sweating he was so scared. The judge told him ” You better get these 52 NA’s or you are going to jail.

I plan on helping in any way I can. I have a great lawyer in California that can  talk to you . contact me at makeaasafer@gmail.com

I’m open to other ideas as well.

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167 thoughts on “Attention- Airline Pilots, Doctors, Lawyers and Nurses who Hate Alcoholics Anonymous we need you …

  1. I love the idea of the class action lawsuit for having the AA component in the DUI classes. AA is religious and is not free, the hat is passed and people are shamed into financially supporting it.

    MM

  2. I agree with GenX Massive. You really have worked so tirelessly in the Pro-Truth AA Movement (Do you like that name? Some of us are communicating on coming up with something more positive that ye ole “Anti-AA” moniker) You are an inspiration. The class action lawsuit led by professionals being coerced is key. Thank you for letting these fine women and men know that they are not alone and that they are by no means “powerless”. Yeah Baby! Its about time that Alcoholics Anonymous be shown who they are really fn with!

    • I have thought about this guy for a while. My conclusion is he is an experiment. A gay, married, 12 Stepping alcoholic in recovery is not something middle America can relate to and certainly isn’t the profile of someone who instills fear in the hearts of drug lords. Everything in politics is political and not necessarily done out of the search for the highest efficacy. He is ineffective from the get go and nothing more than theater for the administration. That said, he is possibly dangerous as he has significant resources to do great harm if he wants to. And that includes wire tapping and internet surveillance of anyone he chooses. We know he’s a Stepper and we know steppers are delusional, passive-aggressive powderkegs and when you combine those attributes with power, the outcome could be disastrous. That WP article was set up long in advance and cleared through channels for a reason. Sure, it tries to paint him with the happy brush, but make no mistake, one of the things it is doing is sending a message to the anti-12 Step community – A Stepper with significant resources is in power. What that Stepper does with that power remains to be seen. He was a terrible choice and Obama does not need the controversy he will generate. But then again, the dude is only temporary.

    • Oh, that’s a NEW article! I thought that was one I saw several months ago, but this has some different info (such as the Mayor of Boston being a stepper).

      There’s plenty to comment on, but this (the “rallying around” a newcomer) stood out for me:

      “That’s the first time that I raised my hand and said that my name was Michael, and I was an alcoholic, and that I needed help,” he said. “At that point, people kind of rally around you.”

      In cult literature (which takes the expression used by the Moonies), this is called love bombing.

      Yes, it’s all there, folks. Read up on cults and you’ll find many or most of the techniques eerily familiar. And judges, ministers and “Assistance Programs” REQUIRE that people attend these 12-step meetings!

      • Once you see it and then see the enormity of the AA cult ecosystem in our society, it becomes surreal. An ineffective religious cult organization dominates the “recovery” field in the US. It’s like we have collectively lost our minds.

  3. It looks like this is getting some traction……..people will pay even more attention to professionals, everyone else tends to be treated like 2nd class citizens and there is apathy in regard to it. But when it comes to our pilots, nurses, doctors and other professionals I think more people will listen more. I hope the professionals reading this realize you are serious and mean business about going to bat for them and should contact you.

    Thank you.

  4. Just a quick aside: When someone is sent to AA by the courts I it should not be called think ‘mandated’, it should be called ‘sentenced’. If we use this word then the public will be more clear about what is happening.

    mm

  5. Its been threats from the start of inpatient to the present. Help but only with the quid pro quot of the giving over of ones life and thoughts to the simple program of Alcoholics Anonymous. I have witnessed quotes such as: “you can have your miracle all you have to do is work the steps and attend more meetings” “The FAA cannot require you to attend AA but they also do not have to give your medical back” “The FAA gold standard is firmly established in sobriety (tacitly meaning AA) established with a sponsor and working the steps” “I do not think you are done yet, you should go out and drink more until you lose everything and realize that your life depends on the program” “If you do not work your program, the steps, and attend meetings you will die” “you are not working a program that is accordance with the FAA’s expectations” “when you do your psychological evaluation with the FAA psychiatrist, there will be a rigorous evaluation of your knowledge of the steps and the big book” “We will help him but not until he has completed a thorough step 5”

    Excerpt from a recent group session inside a stepper aftercare facility that reports directly to the FAA.

    stepper:

    “what words would you say to a new sponsee”? “What would you say to a newcomer in the program”

    patient:

    “honestly, I do not know what I would say” “I do not have an answer for you”

    stepper:

    “well what are you doing to stay sober”? “how many meetings weekly do you attend”? “do you have a sponsor, a home group”? “What step are you on”?

    patient:

    “I go to three meetings weekly” “There is one meeting that fits my schedule” “I am on step 5”

    stepper:

    “what is it that you are doing to stay sober”?

    patient:

    “Well, I uhh, I am not drinking”

    stepper:

    “do you think that is enough”?

    patient:

    “yea, yes, I do”

    The next session, the patient was called into the office early and informed that they needed more rigorous treatment, in the form of intensive outpatient therapy. This therapy was to meet three days a week for two hours for two additional months at a substantial increase in cost. The patient became extremely depressed. Thy felt punished and like they had failed. This led to suicidal thoughts as the patient was under extreme financial duress and could not afford the facility to begin with.

    This is just a small excerpt from someone I know personally. Its just a brief glimpse into the life of a suffering individual who is being forced into a religious cult.

    I hope more people gather the courage to speak out about this like he has.

    Thanks for reading.

    Never ever give up.

    • Can’t express my level of frustration with that story. AND it plays out every day probably thousands of times just across the US. A cult member has control to do whatever they want. A “counselor” who has probably admitted they can not think correctly, has a disease of perception, is a liar, thief and a cheat and yet, is in a position of power over someone else. No one outside the realm of this nonsense understands the depth of the travesty. The whole substance abuse treatment industry that involves steppers needs to be repeatedly exposed and then punished for its behavior by governing bodies that don’t include AA cult members.

      • Samson- I spoke to a pilot yesterday who told me part of his story. I am outraged as is he for the way he has been treated. There need to be a class action lawsuit against the FAA and the commercial airlines that are forcing the pilots with their EAP programs. SICKENING!!!!

    • It’s not surprising that the guy should feel like he’s being punished because that’s exactly what it is. They will be able to claim he’s still in “denial” even though he isn’t drinking, just because he’s rightly hesitant to submit to twelve step indoctrination. I love his honest answer about what he would say to a newcomer in the program. I never “knew” what to say to newcomers either beyond offering encouragement. I learned to repeat the standard dogmatic things that people say to newcomers, and I regret that, but it sure wasn’t because I “knew” whether it was right or not.

      • Yep. When I was first asked questions like “what are you going to do to stay sober?”, I foolishly answered “not drink”. Of course, their quick response was a stern “you can’t stop”, followed by more questions and admonishments. The fact that all of my “piss tests” always came up clean didn’t seem to really matter. Fortunately, it didn’t take long to figure out the right response was stuff like “meetings, maybe a couple or more each day if necessary.” Then the questions and admonishments stopped.

        • Right, they love their twisted version of compliance with a couple conversion narrative stories thrown in for good measure. For them, it is not enough to not drink. They are convinced that alcohol is cunning, baffling and powerful and your disease is at work at all times scheming on ways to get a drink. Only the crucifix of AA will keep the demons at bay.

  6. $2,500 an hour, for what?????? If what you get for your $2,500 is a prescription to “do 90 meetings in 90 days, get a sponsor, and/or work the steps,” it should be considered an unethical con and an immoral crime against humanity!

    • Its 10,000 to 40,000 and 4000 dollar copay’s to be told to do 90 meetings in 90 days. If this sanity of this is questioned, you are told: “go to meetings, and more meetings, keep going to meetings until you like going to meetings” This aggravates the business of getting on with life and recovering. Its hours of a person’s day, gas in your car, and precious time in life that you can never reclaim.

      You are psychologically hazed, told you are insane, will drink yourself to death if you stop, and accused of pathology if you question the efficacy or appropriateness of the treatment. It harms the self esteem, takes away self efficacy, dis-empowers, re-enforces negative self image, encourages relapse behavior, and, for some people, stimulates thoughts of suicide.

      • I have wondered if it is possible that it is actually the recovery industry that keeps AA going. They would have a financial interest in protecting its reputation and promoting it. I think the government just refers people to AA because government is broke and AA is free of charge.

        • Fernanand- Good point. I think you are right.

          Even after 2 years of making the film The 13th Step it was not until this year in early spring when I heard the pilot and doctors stories and people like Dupont being the first Drug Czar and I think Stepper who was a big Drug Testing company . I see now its so all about money. Its a billion dollar Industry. I can’t even cover all this crap in my film.

          But let me say this…..there are two other films coming out this year that address this stuff along with CBS….God bless whoever green lit that ….

        • “I have wondered if it is possible that it is actually the recovery industry that keeps AA going.”

          In large part it is. They need each other. At one time, Hazelden alone was responsible for over half of the annual Big Book purchases from AAWS. And the treatment centers need meetings to use as a dumping ground for their newly released clients.

      • Plus, after shelling out substantial cash for treatment there seemed to be no expectation from the staff that you will succeed in the long-term. Put another way, here you have an industry that unashamedly says rarely have they seen some fail if they work the program while acting like rarely will anyone they treat succeed! Never is there any recognition that maybe the poor efficacy of their treatment is simply because their approach really isn’t worth a shit. The Three Stooges could have passed for “addictionologists” when they said, “who are you going to believe, me or your own lying eyes”!

        • What does “thoroughly followed our path” mean anyway? It is so vague it can be assigned to anyone. Who has followed their path thoroughly? How would you know if you had or had not? No one is ever clear about what their path is.

          • There is a lot more to the “path story” and it is staring AA’s right in the face but they don’t see it. Wilson made up the “path” the moment he wrote it. So, in reality, no one, I repeat NO ONE had followed the path he wrote about. Again, NO ONE. This is because prior to him writing the 12 Steps FOR THE BOOK, the path was a six step path of the Oxford Group and it was Yeezuz-based. People have to let that sink in. The beginning of Chapter 5 that is read at almost every meeting is a lie, a bold faced lie. The 12 Step “path” didn’t even exist until he wrote it and before he wrote it, he said that people rarely failed if they thoroughly followed it. But it didn’t exist until he wrote it for the book. If we applied simple existing false advertising rules to that Chapter, they would get shut down until they changed it. I did a couple years of part-time research into this and the truth is a total mind blower. Bill Wilson was a total con and AA is a total con and an entire treatment industry has been built on top of a con. Treatment based on the 12 Step model of AA is a huge ineffective and dangerous fraud and it is allowed to continue and even proliferate. They big question really is “why?”.

              • “Here are the steps we took which are suggested as a program of recovery” No they didn’t. No one had taken the steps he wrote about when he wrote it. No one. It is a lie. It is complete fiction. Further, the entire Big Book is fiction. Not science, not medicine, not researched and vetted, it is fiction – all of it. Even the personal stories in the first edition are fiction. It’s all made up.

            • spj – However, the whole rarely have we seen someone fail that has thoroughly followed our path statement meshes perfectly with the cherry-picking circular logic of AA. Look at it this way: there was no 12 step AA path before the Big Book was written, so Bill W. was being truthful by saying that he had rarely seen anyone fail since no one could have failed at following a path that didn’t exist (of course, no one could have succeeded either). Unprovable one-sided claims such as this could keep roomfuls of glazed-over people solemnly nodding their heads in agreement for generations. Conversely, had Bill W. said “rarely will someone fail if they follow the path I am laying out here today”, the success/failure of following the path could be measured in the future which, of course, is undesirable in an organization that seeks to avoid accountability.

              • Common- well put! so Bill W. was being truthful by saying that he had rarely seen anyone fail since no one could have failed at following a path that didn’t exist LOL LOVE IT !!!!!!!!

        • In one particular inpatient session during my stretch, the therapist actually made point, again and again, how few would actually leave and remain sober. She rubbed the 5% in the session’s face every chance she got. This was a very negative experience.

      • Here is a link to a study that fails to correlate meeting attendance and abstinence. Every group studied had a fall off in attendance with no directly corresponding relapse rate. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2739250/

        There’s a few other good studies there too.

        No matter how hard they try, they can’t prove AA “works” unless they mess with the sample population. Must be really frustrating for steppers that they can’t prove something they believe to be true.

  7. Thoroughly followed our path refers to ingesting the twelve step dogma in its entirety, adherence to the errant Lutheran Buchmanist cult of confession and long overdone hangover of the bombastic ego and contrived dogma of ancient man.

    As a deist, I object vehemently to state sponsored participation in this.

    • I respect your freedom of religion. I am a Catholic and if I can follow mine, you can follow yours and vice versa. I also object to state sponsored participation in this.

  8. And to find all the cases for a class action law suit simply google the words, ‘respondent shall furnish his sobriety monitor’ and all the cases show up.

    🙂

    MM

    • I had a sponsee who was involved in a court case and was sentenced to AA. She told me when she went before the judge he asked her what her sponsor had to say about her progress.
      I felt like, seriously? A judge is relying on my opinion. He doesn’t even know who I am. I could have been an axe murderer for all he knew.
      This was during my last days in AA. It was one of the little pieces that started adding up.

      • I also had to provide a letter and be in court and like you, I felt like I could have been an axe murderer and they would have still treated me like a saint because I was in AA.

        I have tried another search and this works well too. Google ‘respondent sobriety monitor sponsor’ It brings up physician cases as well.

        Sorry about so many posts…

  9. In this one Steve Polin a volunteer with the Lawyer Counselling with the Bar is both the ‘sobriety monitor’ is also his AA sponsor. But more importantly this ‘sponsor’ gives a detailed report to the court on where this individual is in the steps. ‘respondent has completed three of the twelve steps of the AA/NA recovery program, has started the fourth step, and is discussing other steps,[6] consistent with the process’. AA is definitely being used as a reporting system for the courts. http://law.justia.com/cases/district-of-columbia/court-of-appeals/1993/90-sp-297-5.html

    Sorry for so many posts…. I got on a roll with finding cases.

    • yep,

      pretty much identical to the HIMS program where HIMS monitor peer sponsors and corporate sponsors write letters on your progress in the program for the FAA and the company you work for.

    • His, “successful achievement” of some of the 12 Steps. OMFG !

      “Achievement” of the any of the 12 Steps in a legal document is beyond ludicrous.

        • The greatest tragedy of all is I have a fine conception of the god of my understanding and a vibrant spirit that want to help others. AA has tried to redefine this conception and redirect my belief system the the program. In my opinion, the program is not the work of god at all. Its the posthumous ingratiation of Bill Wilson’s ego.

          • Hello Samson, I just read the book called Christianity and Alcoholics Anonymous; Competing or Compatible by David Simmons. It addresses how the program conflicts with Christianity. Overall it was pretty heavy with doctrine and I didn’t agree with all of it, but it was nice to see a beginning at this issue being addressed in print.

            MM

      • Hello Massive and everyone,

        If you like the cases then you should download them to your computer. I had found one with the sobriety monitor, posted it on the Youtube film site then the contents of the link changed when I went back to read it and yes, I did double check that the link was correct.

        I was absolutely gobsmacked which is what got me going on finding so more cases. I figured… NOPE… you are not going to do that. ‘FU powerful ppl’. Below I have posted what the link got changed to. Totally sanitized. I had been arguing with a lawyer on the film site. After I had posted the case the lawyer went nuts and started deleting their own posts which effectively deleted mine. I had wondered what produced such a reaction, I think it was the proof of what the judges have been doing. I also note that this case comes from Washington. There are some buckass crazy steppers over there.

        http://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/03/f13/PSH-13-0130.pdf

        So EVERYONE, download all the links when you find them ’cause they could disappear or be changed. My first one did. Luckily I had remembered the wording.

        MM

        • So, this “achievement” of doing any of the 12 Steps got me thinking. In the world of education there are degrees and certifications. These are well known, established representations of “achievement.”

          To represent “completing” any of the 12 Steps as some sort of meaningful “achievement” in a legal document is beyond ludicrous. What this is saying is the 12 Steps have some sort of established societal value in which their completion constitutes an achievement and is to be recognized as such by the courts to the point that it is documented as an achievement. This is seriously stoopid shit.

          I have decided to update my resume with my successful achievement of completion of the 12 Steps multiple times. It obviously has societal value and I can put it right under my experience and achievements around successfully completing my training on learning how to boil an egg. I am confident they are equally valuable. Although boiling an egg is something that actually works so it might have an value edge there.

          • I don’t know if it still goes on anywhere, but there was a time when time in the rooms could actually be used as credit toward some kind of chicken shit chemical dependency degree. Good for cult status and maybe a job in a treatment center I guess.

            • Yeah, know a guy that got a job that way. Almost 30 years in AA and he finally got a job at a treatment center and it was mostly carrying warm urine samples from the bathroom to the lab. Nice guy, but he was the example of long term involvement in AA that I did not want to become. There were many more like him and they had themselves convinced they were “unemployable”. Another self-fulfilling prophecy. If one believes no one will hire you, that becomes reality, so, hey, why really try. Better to live in meetings and spout wisdom and help others while your life goes to hell.

          • You make an excellent point here, but to me the startling thing about her discovery, is MM found proof that AA actually is allied with outside agencies, and that violates their own 11th Tradition. The traditions are revered as holy and indivisible, and this proves that they aren’t!

  10. I had a short conversation yesterday with one of my AA peer review pilots. Its my 40th birthday. I told him that all I wanted was to be reintroduced to my career in some capacity. He said: “all you have to do is do what you are told and work the steps”.

    When I say things like: ” I find no relationship between the steps and my resolve not to “, I am told: ” you are not ready and you will drink again”. When I lash out and express frustration, I am told: “nobody is going to write you letters until you are stable in your sobriety”. These are usually followed by gross assumptions about my character continued assertions that I have no power over alcohol despite nine months of abstinence, none of which AA can take credit for.

    • They are called “step Nazi” for a reason. It sounds like reasoning with your AA indoctrinated overseer has unfortunately about as much a chance of success as some other well-informed, reasonable person trying to convince an SS guard at Auschwitz that the Jews were really not the source of Germany’s post WWI problems. In the SS guard’s mind “if the Fuhrer said it, it must be true”; similarly in the step Nazi mind “if Bill W.said it, it is true”. Even if your overseer agreed that your approach has been effective and, therefore, you are fit to fly, the overseer’s AA overseer would probably want both of you sent to the ovens.

    • At the end of the day, what they are looking to hear is any sign of a conversion narrative.

      I used to think/feel/do

      then, the program opened my eyes, I started to see things differently because of my involvement with the program, I got a sponsor and worked the steps, whatever

      And Now .. My life is better, I am not as angry, I can see the error of my ways, I realize how stubborn I was, etc, etc…

      Make up a couple and try them and watch their eyes light up. Conversion narratives are their number one source of determining compliance and not drinking isn’t enough.

      • And Celo Green just copped a plea with AA being part of his “sentence”. Sometimes I wonder if AA is past the tipping point and is now simply part of the fabric of America and it is too entrenched to be uprooted. A cult that went mainstream because of “secrecy” and missionary zeal. Not because it actually works.

        • Spj I heard that see the green going to DUI and was court ordered to AA

          I sense your hopelessness regarding how entrenched Alcoholics Anonymous is but I have to believe that my film and that the lawsuits and that the other films that are coming out will make a difference,

          It’s like the Catholic Church nobody’s taking it on yet but my film does
          There will need to be lawsuit after lawsuit and there will need to be a lot of media covering it as well,

        • Dear Samson,

          I don’t think Spj meant for you to lie, they said ‘Conversion narratives are their number one source of determining compliance and not drinking isn’t enough’. See how this fits with your beliefs.

          AA members are very big on hearing each other spout the words that they all commonly use. That is a reality. Without those Mantra’s your knowledge of the program will be suspect. The book on Christianity and the program talks about that. Basically using their terms is a display of knowledge.

          MM

        • That is completely up to you. The gray areas around the topics and assembly of conversion narratives is very broad indeed. A smart person like yourself can surely create narratives that are meaningful to both sides of this equation.

          Here is an example. ” I have been thinking about this Step 1. In reviewing my behavior when drinking excessively, it did seem at times like I had minimal control because I did end up drinking to excess despite not wanting to. So, in certain ways I can see how that could be considered powerless and I need to look at that aspect further. ”

          I don’t see that as a lie if there were times you drank to excess. They like it because it shows progress in their direction. To be in icy defiance when they control your future, unless you are going to fight them on legal grounds, is not in your best interest.

          Bill Wilson plagiarized from many sources. They all weren’t worthless and there is much to learn from the environment. This whole thing could be a worthy intellectual endeavor if you want it to be. Also, once they see movement towards a posture of “recovery”, they will be more tolerant of you talking about SMART or other abstinence recovery models. In their narrow scope, they perceive your negative stance towards AA as a negative stance towards “recovery” because the two are synonymous to them. Once they that you have willingness to start participating, they will lighten up a bit. You may be able to find a “sponsor” in SMART that is an ex-stepper that can help you navigate the AA gauntlet. If you are forced to do this, might as well make it an adventure. There really is a lot to learn from physical, social and psychological perspectives. Who knows, from all you will learn, there may be the ability to help others through this gauntlet in the future. I’m confident the opportunity will present itself if you have the knowledge.

          • Thanks spj. That’s a very well written useful post. I plan to work both sides towards the middle and I have been giving these intellectually honest narratives for some time. This endeavor was not helped by the fact that my former sponsor was an AA purist. There’s room for debate on both sides. I’ve not always handled it well and lashed out with vitriol but I do not believe a person can be reasonably expected to have serenity in the basement sub floor of the Maslow triangle. Things are getting better. I tip my hat to the concept of self efficacy and empowerment.

            • Hi Samson,

              Given that I have over 20 years sobriety and you are still new at it, I am going to slow you down at getting pissed off at all of this because you are so new. Remember the task at hand is to stay sober and getting your job back. All the rest can get dealt with at a later date. 🙂

              MM

      • “I used to think/feel/do”

        Doctors and judges absolutely love that kind of stuff. (“I’ve done a lot of things I’m not proud of”…)
        They know how to use that to open doors, and I think it’s a key part of why AA has been so successful in infiltrating the court system. The original template can be found in “The Doctor’s Opinion” where they bamboozled Dr. Silkworth: “You may rely absolutely on anything they say about themselves.” It worked for them in the thirties, and it still does.

    • Tape them. Simple as that. It is time. You may never use the tapes against them but it will give you confidence and something in your back pocket should it be needed.

    • This is horrifying, Samson.!! To get your job back, you have to conform to cult norms. At least now, with this blog’s help, you are able to step back from it and look at it objectively. You can fight them more effectively if you are educated on their cult mindset. This is such a clear example of violation of the “separation of church and state” amendment to the constitution. This is truly an outrage!

  11. Samson, there area lot of pamphlet on the AA website which state that AA members are not to testify, provide letters etc… you could have a lot of fun bringing them all to court and having a member from AAWS itself testify against them that they are not supposed to be doing this. Then you can provide copies of all these pamphlets to the court proving it. I think you have a lot of reading to do of the pamphlets. Go to the aa.org website. If anything it will empower you.

    I really am a shithead! Hahahhaha….

    MM

    MM

  12. Samson,

    One of the things that has been sticking in my backside is how steppers waive the ‘cooperation’ and ‘not allied’ flag while insisting that they are not working with other organizations. Well this might have been true when AA was new, but it is not any more and AAWS has produced many documents and created many committees to solidify their alliance with outside organizations. Here is one definition but no matter which one you look at, I believe that putting ANY definition of these words up and comparing it to AAWS and AA member activities, the relationship is clear and if it were to be dealt with in court, AA would be deemed part of the government and many organizations. Heck, just look at the trial cases I put up. Clearly the judges are relying on the services that AA members provide.

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/allied
    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cooperation

    MM

    • It has always been an organization of “say one thing and do another”. Also known as deceptive practices, or more commonly, lying. There is no “truth” in AA as an organization. They are slimy from top to bottom. Those that are in it and take it seriously and expect true honesty and propriety will be extremely disappointed. Continuation and expansion of the cult is all that matters to them. They do not care about false representation, harms done to others or the lack of efficacy of their beloved program and organization. Nothing can be proven to them about the harm done by their organization or the any other negative aspect. They will never come to the realization that they are full of shit and shut themselves down. They must be made to shut down and that will be a long and arduous battle. The good news is the internet is providing the means for this battle and people are finally engaged in exposing AA for the slimy, ineffective cult that it is.

      • I have always believed that AA’s soft underbelly are the judges and physicians that coerce people into AA. Given the large drop out rate in AA, it is essential that judges continue to sentence people to AA (in open defiance of Constitutionally guaranteed civil rights) and physicians continue to prescribe AA in treatment plans (in spite of its lack of statistically confirmed efficacy) for AA to prosper. Actually, I think it unreaslistic to expect AA to turn these mandated people away since it isn’t AA that is mandating the attendance (athough AA does actively encourage the coercion). While AA claims to be based on attraction and not promotion, it remains silent (i.e. lies by omission) on the disturbing.issue of coercion and its inherent dangers (e.g. meetings with many convicted felons attending, including violent offenders).

        • It’s not really a secret. AA is free. The government is broke. Parole officers, social workers, etc., have to put something on paper as a plan. Something has to be billable. There are no government programs to send people to. They are all cut.
          The government is seeking out AA to bring more meetings, more sponsors, etc. into jails and prisons.
          AA members are working for the government for free.

          • The government is not broke . It spends Billions on a war machine instead of things that matter.

            But billions are also spent on rehab. There is a budget of 500 million dollars for drug and alcohol prevention….who gets that money….

            Follow the money.

            Its all about money and power.

      • I am happy to have found this site. I am someone who joined AA about 1982 and would have argued about the description of cult. It now fits my viewpoints just about perfect. The statement that ” Nothing matters to them except the continuation and the expansion of their cult, Bingo, my thoughts exactly.

    • It’s a sad commentary,also, on the way prisoners are treated in this country. Most convicted felons, prisoners, or whatever you want to call them, want to get their lives together. It is hard for them to get jobs once they get out, get credit, get housing, etc. It’s a discouraging road, and if they have not been taught a good skill that they would like to make a living at, they are sorely tempted to go back to their old ways. Sending them to AA is just more of the same bad treatment. Prisoners should be helped. They need to be engaged by good people while they are in prison, and led to find what they really want to do in life. They are no different from non prisoners in that respect.

        • I agree, Massive, that the 7 other free options would be better than AA, since these options teach willpower, accountability, and personal pride and empowerment. But also, the felons need more rehab help while in prison. For every prisoner kept confined for 10 years, (I forget the # of years), the money it takes to confine that person, is enough to give that person an Ivy League education. Can you imagine what the prisoners could do with their lives then, if given some real help? This is a true statistic. The way they run prisons now makes the prisoners worse instead of better, when the means to rehabilitate prisoners is easily in our hands. People don’t realize that we are punishing ourselves too, when we spend so much on punishing those who have fallen into criminality. Punishment doesn’t really work. Excessive punishment is a recipe for disaster.

  13. BTW, the name Mary Magdeline just doesn’t seem to be feeling right so I am changing it to ‘The Librarian’. It seems to fit better too. 🙂

    The Librarian. 🙂

  14. Okie doke. Thanks Anti-D. It’s an old story (i.e. 1998) and I couldn’t find any follow up.
    I’m thinking that the traditions of the 12 step movement DO NOT, CANNOT safeguard professionals careers. It is my prayer that airline pilots, doctors, nurses, lawyers, accountants, and others realize and understand that participation (or lack there of) can potentially ruin them.

    • From About- “These actions taken and endorsed by the General Service structure of Alcoholics Anonymous worldwide have disturbed this writer to the point of questioning his own continuing membership in this fellowship.”

      One has to dissect the sentiment and attitude of that statement and there are others like it in the article. OMFG. Someone is actually questioning their continuing AA membership like it is the board of IBM or something. This is pure egoism. In his mind, he and AA are really important. He doesn’t yet know that AA does not give a shit about him and his “participation” and leaving is a total non-event for them. A TOTAL non-event. The boy needs to get his ego right-sized. But wait, isn’t that what AA is supposed to do? Cut the ego down to size? I think it does just the opposite eventually. The longer people are in AA, the more they become cock-sure they know a lot more and are more important than they actually are. Those that think the BB has all the answers to life and those answers are superior to doctors, psychologists, clergy, etc, get an ego that is completely out of wack with the world. Maybe that is why so many long-term AA members kill themselves, they have lost touch with reality.

    • The severity of the AA attack against their own member really surprised me, Marchon. AA appears to be pretty well organized, when their income is at stake! Wonder what happened with this one. I couldn’t access the documentation they listed on that website. Wonder, too, if that writer did resign his membership.

  15. I am also a pilot at a major airline who has been forced to chose between HIMS participation or lose my job. I have been out of work on unpaid leave of absence since March. I have yet to request admittance to the HIMS program, and have until October 5th to make that decision, as my personal leave runs out on that date.

    I raised the point with my supervisors and the HIMS committee about mandated participation in AA being an abrogation of 1A rights. The HIMS people told me that I did not have to attend AA, nor did I have to endure a rehab that uses AA as its treatment focus. Regardless, I’ll be answering to cult member, aka Steppers, and judged by AA yardsticks. Not fair at all. I’ll post more details, but I think it might be best to confer again with the inimitable Massive and see if this warrants a separate thread. I will fight these bastards, from the top down to the janitor. Something stinks in this whole situation.

    • Rich, you are in an excellent position to demonstrate how well other programs work. You have a green light to show these people how well SMART or other programs work without having to believe and spout a bunch of cult religious horseshit.

      You have won bubba !!

      Just make absolutely sure you are evaluated by a committee each time, not just one stepper.

      Stay sober, get and look more healthy and do a bit of community service work for the needy and you are golden dude. Those things aren’t manipulative, they are all good for you and if they help your case, all the better !

      I know the whole thing sucks, but you have an awesome opportunity in front of you and you can be an example of how it works without AA. Others may follow. Keep a journal so others may benefit from your experience in the future.

      Congratulations !!! And go get em dawg !

  16. Hi SPJ,

    Thank you for your encouragement. Let’s clear up some misconceptions, though. I am doing just fine with moderation management. However, I will be required to maintain abstinence. Not something I can’t do, but certainly something I don’t want to.

    I am healthy; vibrantly so.

    Community service is not my responsibility. Though not my responsibility, I serve my fellow human beings by my work exposing the government and its incessant murders, excuse me, wars for profit, and the unconstitutional violence, disproportional domestic abuse, and the disproportional child molestations committed by our police officers, as well as the dangerous militarization of our police. Doesn’t make me popular with many of my ex-military peers in the cockpit, whom I consider psychopaths; they’re proud of the death they rained down on the “enemy” and the vastly greater number of innocents.

    I don’t care if I’m golden in any sense. What I do care about is the railroading of pilots into an intrusive and unconstitutional program for profit, and I’ll fight these bastards with all that I have.

    I have been to three separate SAPs, including the one required by the FAA to evaluate me. None of them diagnosed me with alcoholism, nor alcohol abuse. However, the contract psychiatrist at the FAA who evaluated my medical documentation used some Common Core math, found that two plus two equals five, and subsequently denied my first class medical. No skin off his back to deny the medical, in fact every financial incentive in the world to deny it; liability for him if he approved my medical application. See how it works?

    I have sent the following email to the HIMS committee where I work: (r) indicates a name that has been redacted.

    Whom It May Concern:

    It appears that I will be forced to accept participation in the (r) HIMS program shortly or lose my job. I would like to request a copy of the exact HIMS contract that I be required to sign, not a “sample” contract as provided in the HIMS Pilot Recovery Handbook. This is to allow my legal advisor to vet the document, and preclude (r) from any unnecessary legal liability.

    I would also like to ask a few questions of the HIMS folks regarding some concerns associated with the resource material available in the HIMS Program Manual and the HIMS Pilot Recovery Handbook, as currently published and available on the Pilots’ site on (r).

    1.) I will not be attending AA. What non-sectarian “recovery” program(s) does HIMS accept instead of the AA program currently indicated as mandatory in the HIMS documents?

    2.) What non-sectarian meetings has HIMS approved to meet the so called “90 meetings in 90 days” requirement contained in the two documents?

    3.) If no such meetings are available, will I be mandated to attend AA meetings as a condition of successful participation in HIMS?

    4.) Page 3 of the HIMS Program Manual contains the following statement:

    All random, follow-on and/or medical sponsor directed urine tests
    accomplished during the crewmember’s JHIMS program monitoring
    period are subject to direct observation.

    Am I to understand that that as a condition of HIMS participation, and thus a condition of continued employment at (r), that I will be required to allow someone to observe my penis as I urinate for this testing or be terminated?

    5.) If I am required to endure the indignity of having my penis observed as I urinate for this mandatory testing, am I to understand that the observer may be female?

    6.) Will a non-AA affiliated Peer Monitor be provided for me?

    7.) If I am required to use a HIMS Peer Monitor who is a member of AA, what training will this person have received to preclude any bias in his or her reports regarding me as a person not in AA?

    8.) Regarding the HIMS Pilot Recovery Handbook, I noticed that several articles and quotes are included from “Bill” Wilson, the founder of AA. Mr. Wilson is well documented as a serial philanderer and LSD user, after his so-called sobriety in AA. Am I to understand that HIMS considers a man of this caliber to be a source of inspiration and guidance to (r) pilots in HIMS?

    9.) Item 1 of the sample contract contained in the HIMS Pilot Recovery Handbook contains the statement:

    I understand that for the purposes of this contract, “alcoholism” shall be construed to include alcohol abuse.

    What is the meaning and purpose of this statement, in light of the fact that these are two separate conditions?

    10) The HIMS Pilot Recovery Handbook has multiple references to “God”. Does (r) management allow religious indoctrination to be published in an approved manual?

    11.) Will I be precluded from recording any and all interactions with a Peer Monitor, this recording for safeguarding both myself and the Peer Monitor from civil and/or criminal liability?

    Thank you for responding to this inquiry. I have included (r) (acting as point of contact with the (r) leadership team), and (r), the (r) in this communication.

    Best Regards,
    Rich (r)

    • All good stuff… maybe you should get a SMART Recovery handbook as a comparison tool to illustrate the vast differences between religious faith-healing tools and real substance abuse recovery tools. The difference is startling. AA calls whatever the hell it is they offer a “spiritual toolkit” and SMART is a cognitive toolkit with real tools to make you think, examine your motives and triggers and exact change.

      AA sure has infiltrated HIMS. Imagine that. A medically fraudulent, faith-healing organization has pilots by the proverbial balls. A pilot strike would be more appropriate than a letter imo.

      If you are required to get a sponsor, you may want to ask in the letter what the required qualifications of said individual should be and ask about their specific duties, role and influence in the process.

      • Hi Rich, When I was tracking down one of the trolls, I realized that many of the more arrogant members are conference speakers, and these same speakers have tapes which are available for sale. But more importantly, those tapes often contain far more personal information then what the person means to give out. I wonder if any of the ppl you are dealing with has a speaker tape…. like the fellow who wouldn’t pass your medical? Is it possible there is a conflict of interest?

      • spj- AA sure has infiltrated HIMS. Imagine that. A medically fraudulent, faith-healing organization has pilots by the proverbial balls. A pilot strike would be more appropriate than a letter imo.

        Yup- Get them all riled up file a suit and I bet there will be thousands who join the lawsuit. We have one of the pilots who is California talking to an attorney. I’ll see him tomorrow and I’ll let you know …

    • “9.) Item 1 of the sample contract contained in the HIMS Pilot Recovery Handbook contains the statement:

      I understand that for the purposes of this contract, “alcoholism” shall be construed to include alcohol abuse.

      What is the meaning and purpose of this statement, in light of the fact that these are two separate conditions?”

      Alcohol abuse is in the DSM. It is a mental health diagnosis. I wonder what the contract psychiatrist at the FAA diagnosed you with.

      • Hi Ferdinand,

        I have spoken on the phone twice with the contract psychiatrist. His name is Alan Sager, and his phone number is 703.819.1103. I was provided his phone number by the FAA Aeromedical folks when I asked them who rendered the decision that I committed “alcohol abuse”.

        I asked “Dr.” Sager point blank if he had diagnosed me with alcohol abuse, and he replied that he had not. He said he had made an “administrative recommendation” to the FAA to deny my medical for alcohol abuse.

        I do not conclusively meet the FAA or DSM-V criteria for alcohol abuse. This has been substantiated with the three SAPs I’ve met with thus far. I will be sending the FAA (aeromedical) a certified letter requesting clarification on whether or not I have been diagnosed with alcohol abuse, and also requesting the name of the physician rendering this diagnosis. I will then file suit against the bastard.

        • You are legally entitled to see your records and, in this case, they would be mental health records. They can get around it by saying that it would be harmful to you to see them. But you can put a request in writing to see them.
          Alcohol abuse is a lifelong diagnosis.

    • OMG Rich you said ” The HIMS Pilot Recovery Handbook has multiple references to “God”. That is just crazy! I am so glad you are putting up a fight. AA is so into the sponsor role, but then they call it something different. In Veteran Courts they have different names for them.

      SMART Recovery is so different and is accepted by some Employers.

    • Not to be a shit but…. you forgot to mention whether or not the FAA will obtain all the names of the people at the AA meetings from which you will gain this great awareness…. or can they be street people….. just saying…..

      Or do all the people who attend the AA meetings have to be ‘of quality’ and have to be vetted first.

      Librarian

    • I’m going to make them tell me what they approve of. They’re the ones responsible for providing me with a non-sectarian recovery program.

      I’m familiar with the SMART program, but I’m going to make them jump through the hoops THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR. If they want to intrude on my freedoms, they better stand the fuck by.

  17. The whole situation stinks from the beginning. A couple of guys in my NY crash pad made a call to my company’s HIMS mafia. Some of their statements were true, and a damning number were false. An intervention was held in August of 2013. I told them (very politely) thank you, but fuck off. There was a spike in my drinking, to be sure, but I never compromised my safety, nor that of anyone else. Compromising one’s safety is a key parameter of an alcohol abuse diagnosis, and I did not meet that during the period of increased drinking.

    Got a dui in Sep of 2013. Was not dui, as my recent “not guilty” verdict (Sep 11, 2014) by jury trial confirmed. I was guilty of contempt of cop, as I upheld my constitutional rights during the traffic stop, and also let the officer know what I thought of him. While not prudent, letting a cop know your true thoughts is not against the law, and certainly not reason enough to charge or convict someone with dui.

    Had to submit a package of info to the FAA as a result of the dui; included was an evaluation by a SAP. The SAP found me not alcoholic, nor an alcohol abuser, as did the SAP associated with the dui school I had to attend for driver’s license purposes. FAA countermanded the SAP’s findings, and denied my medical application. Unable to work as a result. The FAA offered two modalities of regaining the medical: wait out two years with no further motor vehicle actions, or join my company’s HIMS program. I am still in negotiations with my employer to get the remaining year off on personal leave; will most likely enroll in the HIMS program if this is not allowed. I supposedly will receive disability pay while in the HIMS program, and am not and will not receive any pay while on personal leave. I have enough money to retire at this point, but I prefer to right what I perceive as an injustice.

    Six months of abstinence/contemplation after the arrest. Learned moderation management techniques, safely resumed drinking in March of this year.

    I’ve dealt with dui, trial, loss of income, potential loss of employment (not sure if I really want to continue playing the flying game; it’s not been fun for a long time), and my mother’s deterioration and death this past July from cancer and Alzheimer’s. Though mourning, and concerned about the future, I’m doing fine.

    Fighting injustice invigorates me.

    • Rich

      I’m in the UK so know very little about this HIMS stuff, but I just wanted to say a) I am astonished you are currently suspended from your career for NOT having an alcohol problem or a drink driving conviction (I’ve got that right, right?) . How in the world can this be?

      and b) I really, really admire your attitude.

      Rebecca
      x

      • No criminal record whatsoever; just this one dui arrest, in which I was adjudicate not guilty in a trial jury. No diagnosis of alcoholism or alcohol abuse from three separate SAPs. One “administrative recommendation” from an FAA contract psychiatrist recommending denial of my medical certificate for alcohol abuse.

        I will bring the fight to these people.

    • They can’t send you to AA, a religious nut job cult for this or anything else. I am set on exposing this and stopping it. ALL coercion and extortion!!!

  18. Hi Rebecca- thank you. The FAA (Federal Aviation Administration) looks at dui differently than criminal courts do. I refused a breathalyzer after my arrest. The FAA takes a very dim view of refusals, and considers them admissions of guilt, rather than a refusal to participate in helping the government harm oneself. After a refusal, the FAA requires reams of documentation, including your driving history, criminal records, all records related to the arrest, and also an evaluation from a SAP that conforms to certain FAA mandated protocols. My drinking was certainly worth evaluating, and I do not blame anyone for the scrutiny. What is troubling is that in the face of certain true and more importantly false statements, and in the absence of a diagnosis of either alcoholism or alcohol abuse, I am now required to go through an onerous and invasive process to reclaim my medical certificate.

    I’ve been flying professionally for over 28 years, and have been randomly drug tested numerous times as part of the normal testing pilots experience. We are also passively tested by the TSA every time we pass through security on our way to work; the pleasant “hello, Captain Jones” from the TSA person at security is actually an interrogation; TSA personnel are trained be looking out for the odor of alcohol. The pleasant greeting is actually a prompt to get you to exhale in their presence. I’ve never had an issue, but there are vultures who earn their living picking at your carcass.

    • That is ridiculous!

      So the law doesn’t think you are a criminal and a several doctors trained to diagnose addiction don’t think you are an addict or an alcohol abuser (even though you have been honest and said you were drinking too much and for your well being have addressed that) and yet you are still required to jump through all these hoops? It’s insane.

      I agree that I want my pilot to be safe to fly when I get on a plane, but they seem to be making it up as they go along! I don’t expect my pilot to be a robot and not be a human being.

      The summer my brother went to university, his best friend was killed in a car wreck, as they had an argument, and my brother’s friend got in his car after smoking weed, in a temper, roared off home and flipped the car and was killed. My brother, understandably, was distraught on more than one level, not least huge feelings of guilt and drank his way through university. On (barely) graduating, he drove drunk one night and was, as we say in England, ‘nicked’ for being extremely drunk at the wheel. Fortunately this was in the days before they tightened the law as he’d have gone to prison had it happened now – he was mouthy, obnoxious, tried to hit a female police officer and gave a breathalizer test three times over the limit. They kept him in the cells until he gave a negative breath test (you have to be compis mentis to be charged here to ensure you understand your rights) which took nearly twenty four hours! He went to court and was fined and lost his licence (quite rightly) for two years. This event was the kick up the backside he needed to realise that this reckless behaviour had to stop and he duly did just that. It brought everything to a head, the family rallied round, and he got his shit together. My brother is not considered, nor does he consider himself, an alcoholic. He now moderates successfully and is getting on with his life.

      When I decided to go to AA a few years after this, for a similar style of binge drinking, my brother argued strongly against it (I was one of those dummies that volunteered for this madness and kept it up for 12 years, when I too, really, was just drinking too much because I was unhappy and lonely) and tried to convince me I just needed to ‘get a grip’ (oh how I wish I had listened!!).

      My point being – preaching to the choir I realise – normal people go through phases in their life when they use substances or activities to soothe themselves, or distract themselves, or as a prop or a coping mechanism, or just because they do – it could be shopping, having affairs, collecting stamps, or drinking, or taking up marathon running. It’s insane that this behaviour is so pathologized and labelled as ‘sick’ – it’s normal. It might not be very clever, it might be unhelpful, it might be at times self destructive or unhealthy but provided it’s not endangering anyone else then i don’t see whose business it is.

      My brother deserved to get nicked, he took it on the chin, and now he’s moved on. However he’s very much like you and refused to read too much more into it other than he went though a ‘bad patch’ and there’s nothing wrong with him! I really hate this imposition of what are really po faced middle class values on everyone. It’s real life, shit happens … doesn’t make us all diseased. Makes my blood boil.

      Anyway, that is all a very long winded way of saying, I think you are absolutely correct to resist this intrusion and to play them at their own game. You’ve worked hard for your career and even if you do decide to retire it should not be under a cloud where you are being penalized for being an average human being, it’s not fair.

      Anyway, good luck to you Rich, I look forward to reading more of your story as things progress.

      Rebecca
      x

    • Rich – I saw the attorney today in Court for the civil lawsuit. I hope that we can start the case in Cali with the pilot here, then add you to it.

      Have you called the ACLU in Florida?

      Try that. IM calling them here tomorrow ….just a new idea…

  19. A pilot wrote this to me and said I could post it . This has to stop !!!!!

    Monica,
    I read your blog about the pilot and dealing with HIMS. This is very scary. The FAA will send him to one of the Independent Medical Examiners (IMS) (see http://www.faa.gov/pilots/amelocator/media/HIMS%20INDEPENDENT%20MEDICAL%20SPONSORS.pdf) . These are hired psychiatrists/”addictionists” of AA/FAA Notice that there are only TWO of them in ALL of northern California! They will (always) diagnose him with one of the disqualifying diagnoses, probably alcohol dependence or drug dependency. That means he can never fly again UNLESS he has insurance or cash to the tune of around $200K. I think the attorney should look at the HIMS website (www.himsprogram.com) and read under Disease Info/Treatment/Philosophy to see just how much AA controls the FAA. Unfortunately, that pilot is going to have to do at least 60 days (don’t believe 28) in rehab, probably 90 days, and three years or more of weekly monitoring and psych evaluations, group therapy, drug testing, and forced to be born again or act like it according to AA dictates. One’s obligation to AA never expires for as long as the pilot wants to fly.
    My last letter to the FAA asked for an alternative to AA or a 12 step program, and I insisted that I was not alcohol dependent, and I would not admit to that diagnosis, but the FAA did not reply. Unless an attorney can sue to remove the 12 step program and get REAL psychiatrists and objective evaluations not controlled by AA, I for one will never fly again.

    • My brain must not be working. What is the connection between the Independent Medical Examiners (IMS) listed and Alcoholics Anonymous? All I see in the PDF is a listing of MDs. Please help me not to feel insane here)

      • No, your brain is working just fine. It is merely a list of physicians and those with aa in their email seem to be American Airlines-related.

        There is no way to tell their affiliation with AA by just looking at the list. However, they should have to include information about their affiliation with AA or SMART or HAMS, or whatever, so pilots and other patients can get an indication of their approach to “recovery”.

    • Massive, Unless someone can demonstrate how this letter links the IMS/FAA to Alcoholics Anonymous I suggest we take this off this blog. We come here for the truth. Right?

    • My vacation from AA was short lived. I was just informed by my FAA IMS that I must attend three AA meetings a week or the FAA will reject my application for medical re-issuance.

  20. This is so heart wrenching. It is so unconstitutional for the FAA to be using AA religious fanatics; particularly since there is the document from AA which states members are not to perform this service. Read it to the end…

    http://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/smf-177_en.pdf

    I wish I was a lawyer and could start a class action lawsuit for all of you – or at least get you on 60 Minutes together. Sometimes the court of public opinion is what it takes…

    There is the last ditch option of turning to a very non-Christian religion, showing up with their symbols all over you then object on the basis of religious freedom….. just saying…… 😉

    Librarian.

  21. Hi Spj,

    Re: Independent Medical Sponsor

    What does that mean anyways?? ‘AA sponsor with a medical license who makes reports to the FAA about the pilots who have been forced to take them as sponsors’? Possibly.

    It would not surprise me if the MD’s on the list of ‘Independent Medical Sponsors’ were called that they would confirm that that is 1) their responsibility to report to the FAA on a Pilot who has been forced to attend AA. 2) They are taking payment for being an AA sponsor to that Pilot then report on their ‘progress’ within AA 3) they are aware that this is against the traditions and mandate of Anonymity in AA 4) they are breaking traditions and using the program for financial gain.

    So can all of this bring into question an MD’s integrity and ethics? Does it show that they are willing to pervert AA for their own financial gain? Perhaps.

    form F-177 and many other documents which relate to using AA for reporting purposes. http://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/smf-177_en.pdf

    Sooo I think this would be how someone could sue their organization and prevent the mandating to AA. Since AA itself does not allow itself to be used in this manor and has documents stating such, it is inappropriate for any organization to rewrite AA’s mandate and force someone to attend, then require them to allow another member (of the organizations choosing) to tattle-tale on them.

    Librarian.

  22. Here is a quote from Dr. Lynn Hankes,clinical professor emeritus,University of
    Washington School of Medicine. This man is advising the FAA and attends HIMS seminars spewing stepper garbage.

    Hankes asserted, “AA is empirically
    validated as the best form of mainte-
    nance treatment developed to date.”
    He said the famous 12 steps of the
    AA program could be summarized as
    four major stages in an AA member’s
    path to recovery—”giving up, cleaning
    up, making up, and growing up.”

    As mentioned, denial plays a major
    role in addiction. That’s why intervention
    is so important. Dr. Lynn Hankes pointed
    out, “Lying is a conscious distortion of reality;
    denial is a subconscious distortion
    of reality.”

    • If this is him, he’s a retired Urologist for crying out loud !!!

      http://addictionspecialistnearme.com/dr-lynn-robt-hankes-in-seattle-wa-98101/

      Just like Wilson latched on to a near wet brain and very sick butt doctor for credibility and inflated himself to a “stock broker” which he never was. AA’s will do anything to expand the cult.

      HIMS needs to listen to people that have devoted their entire adult careers to the study and treatment of addiction. Anything else is a side show geared to expand the cult of AA.

    • samson- can’t wait to expose this crap. The poor pilots. The time is coming for all of this to end. These AA cult leaders are heading for some hard times.

    • There is unbelievable irony in the fact that AA members end up believing they are “special” because they are closer to gawd and more spiritually advanced than “earth people”. There is a well documented speech in AA where the speaker in fact states that AA people are “chosen”. Doesn’t get much more special than that. From a broader societal perspective it is the AA ecosystem which is separate and special from the rest of society. Their “society” is different than the larger society. Wilson used the word society often when referring specifically to AA.

      In terms of pilots, give me an arrogant, unique pilot who really knows his shit, vs an ego-deflated, let go and let gawd amorphous blob of a human that long-term AA indoctrination turns people into. The cult of AA has infiltrated HIMS and they need a sit down with Stanton Peele and Tom Horvath to get some perspective.

      • It is also proven by extensive study that AA participation results in higher rates of binge drinking, re-incarceration and mortality. So, in essence HIMS is forcing people into an environment where the known outcomes are worse than other treatment modalities, including death. They are playing Russian Roulette with the well being and lives of pilots by forcing them into an environment where it is documented they are more likely to die than if they had other alternatives. And the specific justification for gambling with the lives of pilots, is what?

  23. Did you read the link spj? Read what Dr. Hudson has to say about the disease. He is the other FAA expert on the subject matter. This man’s oral diarrhea reeks of similar steppism.

    • Yeah, I reviewed it. Same old stuff with no basis in scientific fact. Stanton Peele and many other experts would have a field day with these guys.

  24. Hi Ms. Massive,

    I listened to your show (on 10/28) with the airline pilots and I was flabbergasted. To actually hear these two articulate men relay their experiences with you about “formal indoctrination” into a program that is so negativity based was heart breaking.

    “Bill Wilson’s Retirement Plan” I laughed out loud. Bill Wilson was a “rampant egotist” – so true.

    Thank you for giving these men an opportunity to voice their frustrations and begin to regain their dignity through your show………….

  25. Marchon- Thank you ! It is a very sad situation and had dot believe that AA is actually so infested with the FAA and Commercial Airlines but it is !!!. So , its good that these 4 airline pilots and one Dr are ready to fight back. Michael Langan is already do that. But , I agree… we will have more shows with them on and we plan to have Barry Hazel and his Lawyer John Heller on btw very soon to talk about the lawsuit they won for being forced to attend AA religious rehab and religious AA meetings.

  26. Unfortunately, I’m a Canadian airline pilot so I can’t contribute to your legal pursuit. But after 32 months in recovery, and the last 18 months back in the left seat, I am still dealing with mandated AA meetings (3 per week). Last night I attended my first AA Agnostic meeting and what a refreshing change. Not once did a discussion erupt in my head following someone’s share about God and/or a higher power.

    The last six months, the wide gulf between my own strong atheist/agnostic beliefs and what AA peddles as spirituality has affected my serenity. I’m so done with having to listen to people stating their belief that there’s some kind of refuge supplied by a supernatural, personally responsive being. Yesterday morning I pondered the idea that perhaps my next share should reveal that I now have several ‘Gods of my understanding’ vice one, and that I have now have ‘super’ powers vice ‘higher’ powers. Such is the benefit AA is now giving me.

    I appreciate the helping hand I received two and a half years ago when I approached my company and voluntarily disclosed that I had a problem and needed help. The only choice I was offered was 12 step rehab (which I think helped me) and AA as follow up, or handle things on my own with our regulator, unpaid (and “Good luck getting your medical back inside of 5 years!”). With hindsight I think that AA is the only arrow in the quiver of the medical establishment to help out pilots like myself, and for me, it’s now bordering on infringing on my right (I presume I have one) to freedom from religious content. Hopefully the AA Agnostic meetings will help reassure the powers that be that I have a firm sobriety established, and it will be that much more serene without traditional AA meetings in my life.

    • This is really intense. Are you public about this or would you go public for a huge Organization to expose the extortion they are doing with AA and Pilots?

  27. ..so to confirm you were given the option of being paid still if you attended AA and not if you didn’t?

    personally I wouldn’t want to fly an airline with a pilot who has been forced into AA whatever the status of higher power or not. Seems like a bit of a side track to the fully committed training you guys take which the 12 steps may potentially undermine in critical decision making..at 36000ft I wouldn’t welcome that the guy in charge suddenly becomes powerless over people places and things or has to revise a moral inventory etc etc. Perhaps you might kindly express this at your next review and that the evidence for 12 step “recovery” is still even after 80 years just fundamentally pernicious woo. I’m sorry that you did the decent thing and took responsibility and that this is what you have to contend with, I really do..and I hope you get the treatment that reflects you as a person first, responsible pilot and able to fully recover in the long term.

    Good luck and best wishes

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