Lawsuit Against Alcoholics Anonymous World Services Over The Murder Of AA Member Karla Brada

Karla Brada

Alcoholics Anonymous World Services and Santa Clarita Alcoholics Anonymous has been sued by the parents of murder victim Karla Brada.

Grieving parents say in court that their daughter was murdered by her sociopathic addict boyfriend because Alcoholics Anonymous concealed his history of domestic violence.

” The Mendezes say that AA showed a “reckless disregard for, and deliberate indifference … to the safety and security of victims attending AA meetings who are repeatedly preyed on at these meetings by financial, violent, and sexual predators like Earle.” AA has known for years that meetings “are repeatedly used by financial, sexual, and violent predators as a means to locate victims,” according to the lawsuit in Superior Court.

But nevertheless the organization has no “specific policies and guidelines concerning conduct of so-called ‘sponsors’” and does little to supervise them.”

Full Story!

http://nadaytona.org/2012/09/28/alcoholics-anonymous-world-services-sued-by-parents-of-murder-victim-karla-brada/

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149 thoughts on “Lawsuit Against Alcoholics Anonymous World Services Over The Murder Of AA Member Karla Brada

  1. OMG! This is huge! Poor Karla Brada was another victim of Alcoholics Anonymous policies that encourage a perfect storm for harm to come to it’s own members. Court papers state AA members concealed Eric Earle’s violent past from Karla Brada, and she paid the price with her life. A brutal killing that she suffered greatly. This time what is different is her parents are suing AA World Services along with Santa Clarita Alcoholics Anonymous.

    It is about time that murder victims families start fighting back and holding AA World Services and The AA Districts for the unsafe environment they create. All victims of sexual assault, rape and financial predatory behavior by AA Members need to hold AA and their members accountable.

      • The statements being made here while maybe well intentioned are devoid of any accurate knowledge of AA’s legal structure.
        My question would be and why wasn’t it pursued on the 48 broadcast by the wellmeaning tthough ignorant reporter is,
        Why weren’t the lawyers and courts called unto question for mandating violent and according the broadcast sexual offenders go to unsuspecting AA meetings possibly attended by vulnerable women.

        Why isn’t Eden Ministry called out for bussing offenders to unsuspecting meetings?
        Meetings are anonymous.
        meetings don’t even have group numbers and are not even registered at GSO.
        So sue AAWS for what?
        How can they control something they don’t control or own.
        Anyone can start a meeting and call itself an AA meeting.
        This is a lawyer and a family trying to make money through something they know nothing about.

        • lance- I will leave a bit of your post up briefly.

          I am addressing a lot in my work as an activist. Groups do have group numbers and they are all registered at GSO if they have a GSR and if they donate any money. AA General Service Office is Highly organized. Eden Ministries was interviewed. They should be investigated and Action Family Should be shut down and reported to Blue Cross and Blue Shield. They have no real services there and if you look on their website their are NO bios and no one who works there has any credentials.

          Sue AA for wrongful death buddy boy….is what is happening.

          Sue AA for negligence and fraud …is that a posibility.

          They are running a multi million dollar corporation lancalot. And they have no responsibility?

          No lanceie poo they are lovely people and the lawyer represents 8 year old children who have been murdered by his parents type of cases.

          So consider this your last post here. Troll….Bye bye..

          • you put my post under the wrong reply. AA is NOT to blame. Each person is responsible for themselves. I am sad for the family and the murder victim. AA saved my life. Sober 42 years.

            • Sharon- Yes AA is at fault at many levels which we have already explained. Read the AA Service Manual.

              and …We don’t care how long you are sober.

              That is not a Bully stick you can hit us here with like you probably do at your AA meetings where you are suppose to be oh so spiritual.

              You are not better, smarter or more informed then we are because you say you have 42 years. We don’t give a shit! It means nothing.

              How are your personal relations? Are you happily married?
              Are you a success at your career?
              Do you like who you are?
              Do you have nice friends?
              How are your finances?
              Do your children like you ?

              See…we care about more important things here…like leaving AA far behind in the dust and exposing its sorry ass for covering up this BS for 50 F**King years.

              Bye Sharon….its over…the big game , smoke and mirrors AA has been playing with the DOJ since 1944 and worse since 1989 when Drug Court .oppps AA court began. Time for a change little Sharon….or are you use to being the big Kahuna at your meetings.

              Well you are not at your stupid meetings…..get off my blog. Troll alert!

              • Haha. I’m in AA and in no way are they responsible for this. It’s like saying it was AA’s fault for her using drugs and drinking again. She was new to AA and shouldn’t have been hanging out with him. Is it her fault??? No, of course not. He was court ordered to come in AA. Maybe blame the court!!!! AA is and always will be the best thing that has ever happened to me. They save many lives! He didn’t tell her, he lied to her! NOT AA”S fault!

                • AA is in bed with the courts. He was ordered there 52 times over 22 years. AA in NY knows this . They have had a board member who ran the entire penal system JEANNE WOODFORD, while she sat on the AA board. INFLUENCE. CONFLICT of interest…..

                  Next “HAHA” – what kind of SICKO are you to laugh about Karla being murdered? OH Yea — your a sick , narcissistic stepper with no compassion ….

                  Lastly – AA is a huge million dollar non profit and an AMERICAN institution that has weaved its way in and out of every system, media, entertainment, Boards of Nursing , The FAA, the ASAM, the White House ….

            • AA makes the bed. Members just lie about it.

              You are complicit in a crime, like the Catholic church. You Sharron, are a criminal, deviant, and are a harm to society. You help shield rapists. What “spiritual” principal is that?

        • actually no they cannot start a meeting and call it AA. AA will threaten to sue if they find out.

          Ever started a meeting. I have started many, you need to register them.

      • She was court ordered to attend, and he was living in a sober housing by court order, I wish more people knew about our 12 Traditions, as we never ask anyone about their background.

        • No she was not- She went to a rehab who drove her a christian rehab filled with violent offenders. No one warned her.

          AA needs a warning statement read at every meeting and it needs to be posted.

    • We are responsible for anyone other then ourselves.. I can not believe someone is tying to Hold AA people accountable, than why not start holding churches accountable, bars, etc. As these type of people are everywhere.. We hold to our traditions. People need to read them before they blame AA..

      • pam- AA is a place where people come , many court ordered who have no idea there is no one in charge and in fact we know that predators also come there exactly to prey on new comers.
        Your argument we have heard many times …for the past 4 years and we wonder why you even say such a thing….also in blogging ALL caps is like yelling so please stop yelling. Churches as bars have been sued. Have you not heard about the Child sexual abuse scandal with the Catholic Church. have you not seen the HBO doc called Mea maxa culpa…AA headquarters know that the courts have ordered violent and sex off to AA and have never bothered to warn the Public or current AA members.

      • AA is not above the law if the Catholic Church isn’t above the law. There are laws in this land that are above AA Traditions.

      • Bars and churches ARE held accountable as are other volunteer organizations.

        It’s time that AA be held accountable for making itself a Mecca / safe haven for criminals to feed off vulnerable people.

        Librarian

    • Sad that this young woman was killed by this violent psychopath. Eric Earle killed Kayla – not Alcoholics Anonymous. I find it astounding that no one mentions the millions of lives this program has saved. Bars, Churches, Gyms, the list goes on forever of places where sexual preditors lurk. Maybe people who frequent these places should have criminal background cheques done on them too? From all reports Earle was a known abuser. It is evident red flags were everywhere. We are all responsible to a huge degree for our own personal safety – the organizations or groups we belong to are not Again we have a case where, because the victim is female, she is not accountable for her own poor judgement and bad decisions with regard to this creep, so lets just blame Alcoholics Anonymous, a convenient scape goat. Had a man been murdered by a female AA member his murder would not have even made the headlines, and furthermore, a lawsuit against Alcoholics Anonymous would have been laughed at.

  2. Interesting that the case hinges on non-disclosure, I have always thought that non-disclosure was at the heart of AA’s negligence. Not only disclosure as to the promotion of potentially dangerous beliefs, but disclosure as to the potential for harm that exists within the membership.

      • Yet AA does promote a sense of safety among fellows “who normally would not mix, like people in a life boat” or some such to that effect. The over-all feeling I got is that we are all the same, and we can be trusted, we understand each other.

        People in my area did and do get stern warnings about safety from one long-time member who has always been despised by most other people with “time”. He says openly in meetings that the steps don’t do anything for you, and that he is an atheist, LOL.

        • I think this is the crux of any lawsuit against AA – complete and total non-disclosure of the shady people lurking in the rooms. I wonder if AA made disclosures, how many people would walk out of doors of AA for once and all? To have warnings read at meetings may cause a few people to start questioning things or at least start looking for these kinds of sites online. Personally I’d like to see AA end or at a minimum become a hollowed out shell of its former self. And if there were fewer saner folks there, the predators might move en masse to somewhere else to look for potential victims. I sure hope this lawsuit wins!

      • I found this blog after researching the topic after it was mentioned at my AA meeting this week. Tough emotional topic and tragic event. I don’t disagree with a lot of what I’m hearing here even after admitting that AA probably saved my life. It was just the closest tool at the time I had and I made it a goal to apply the program to how “I” wanted it to work for me. I agree that it appears cultish on the exterior but I also recognize that THE “fellowhip” of AA, the meetings, the sponsors, the 90 in 90, Etc., are NOT suggested as a tool of recovery in the text book. Every meeting is different and every meeting has predators, financial, sexual or whatever deviant behavior in tow. I do think that male/female attendees should be separated. I do think that statements of warning should be read in every preamble and I do think that at least some sort of oversight should be administered for attendees. Not to belittle such a tragic event but would also caution, if I may, that AA is not the fellowship and it certainly has very little to do with the textbook, Alcoholics Anonomous. I respect your persuit in creating change, I think eventually some of the things you are proposing may come to light and lead to some much needed change and reform.
        Keep pushing, it’s more than just a healthy debate IMHO.

      • No of course not Yuk yuk; what is funny is how stupid AA sayings are, try this one; “at least they died sober”.
        Screw political corectness!
        AA SUX.
        Ha ha ha…

        • Or how about when a long time sober AA member commits suicide, and they say ‘ he must not have been following the steps’.

          Instead of following steps people should be running from the steps . Then they might have less members committing suicide, getting raped and murdered.

          • My favorite was when my sponsor would say “it’s better them than me” or “it’s a terrible disease”.
            And he was a GURU with 30++ years!!!!

          • Old Timers commit suicide because they get suckered into believing that the steps cure secondary psychological illness- and they DON’T.

            Plus pride kicks in and they feel like they can’t share their actual feelings and problems because they are too scared of being looked down upon by other old timers.

            That is a sick pride. So their deeper problems go untreated and eventually they choose to quit living. I’ve seen it happen up close- very sad. Long term AA may be almost as dangerous as alcoholic drinking.

          • I agree Yo totally. I also think AA creates secondary psychological illness through cognitive dissonance and the dynamic you mentioned. AA causes suicides and binge drinking relapse which is another form of suicide.

    • The fact that AA discourages taking meds for emotional problems or seeking help from non 12 step professional therapists is something they should be sued on. AAWS is fully aware of these beliefs within their ranks in the rooms of AA. Yet they will continue to allow sponsors to push these beliefs on their sponsee’s with countless tragic consequences such as suicide.

      The typical cold reaction from AA/NA members when their buddies take their lives is pathological itself.

  3. Hey- remember the horrible murder of Kristine and her 13 year old daughter Saundra Cass in august 2010 in Honolulu, Hawaii? I do . The first story did not mention AA but then a reporter spoke the truth…the Head line read …

    RED FLAGS MISSED… Claybourne Conelly was sent by judges and mental health professionals to AA meetings. Like they were going to help him. AA is filled with angry sickos who are told being angry is not spiritual or really tolerated. They are “above” that … aren’t they? Actually AA members in my experience are highly judgmental by nature. They think they are above the law and that they are part of a secret society.
    see fullstory here. Maybe this family , meaning her parents would like to sue Alcoholics ANonymous at every level too!

    http://www.staradvertiser.com/news/20101107_Red_flags_missed.html?id=106845753

  4. That’s wonderful that they are suing, I certainly believe they should. AA has gone insane with its protection of criminals and dismissal of criminal behavior. Everyone gets verbally lumped together in AA as “exactly the same” and “suffering from the same disease”. I’m sorry, but someone who gets a DUI isn’t the same as a cold blooded murderer just because they both drink too much. It’s dangerous to assume this and harmful to potential victims as well as mentally to the non-psychopathic folks who are told to believe that they are also the “worst of the worst”.

    I really believe “sponsorship” in itself is harmful. People think of their sponsors as authority figures with knowledge, they are no such thing and it can only lead to terrible outcomes.

    I hope this story spreads far and wide. It could eventually save lifes if AA has to pay up.

    • Sponsors are just guru cult life coaches with no training and many times a personal agenda. AA breaks down a person’s personal defense with love bombing, confidence and identification. The member believes they have found a panacea to cure all mans ills and conformity ensues. They embrace the identity “alcoholic” and amble through life in dangerous zombie like fashion. They adopt a new belief system; a system that can kill under the influence of the beliefs that; (a) they have a deadly progressive disease, (b) to drink will bring about Jails, institutions, and death, and (c) AA is the only solution that works.
      Not a condemnation, just my personal experience, just what happened to me.

      • I agree, I’ve had suicidal thinking in “the rooms” myself, feelings that I was a fake and wasn’t working the steps “right”, fears that I would be “found out” then have to do all kinds of humiliating things in order to prove myself. I’ve not taken anit-depressants that I needed because I wanted to be sober beyond question. I used to hold the belief that I should commit suicide if I ever drank again because of the sticky-sweet humiliation and degradation comming back to “the rooms” and “starting over” would bring. I know these thoughts are not those of a well mind, but they were my reality for YEARS. It is a struggle to move out of that kind of thinking. I want AA to have to pay up, strangly enough even though I still attend a meeting a week and am not in a position currently to not do that. I want the institution of AA to have to face some kind of reality for pretending to be the solution for everything and leading people to terrible outcomes that the victim gets blamed for.

          • Well, I am fortunate in that I haven’t had a drink in almost 20 years. I am disillusioned with AA but my whole life since age 28 has been tied up in it. My husband, my friends, my identity. I also have suffered from pretty bad OCD since I was a young child, and the effects of the jargon going through my head if I were to stop completely could be devestating. I know I am walking a line by being here, but you guys offer me the realization that I do not have to completely buy into AA, that I can live and have a life and dismiss a lot of the old fears I had built up around AA. It probably seems strange, but anti-AA message boards have helped my mental health for quite some time now, while still attending a meeting.

          • BCM- I had not thought about what AA must be like to someone who is OCD. What incredible stress and pressure. I know people with OCD, and see the anxiety that comes with it. Well I am glad to hear that sites like this has been helpful for you. Many of us have invested much time in trying to be there for those who have issues with AA. It is good to know it is helping people.

            The reason some stay like yourself is for friendship. Yet they have to tolerate all this mental abuse to keep friends they have made.

            AA would be much healthier if it dropped the steps and religion, and became just a support group like most people on the outside thinks it to be. There are many support groups that are not 12 step based that help people with all kinds of things like death of a spouse, cancer support groups, family members with mental illness, children with special needs etc.

            I always thought that is what AA was, just a support group. A couple of years ago I became a victim of both AA and NA members. When I learned what AA really was, how the courts force people to go, how they indoctrinate our children and cover up and lie about their crimes etc. I was totally disgusted and shocked. The more I learn the more I want to help make change and protect the rights of US Citizens to not have religion forced upon them. To protect our children from the irresponsible, reprehensible behavior of AA World Services and all their AA Areas and AA Districts.

    • bcm- so true. One of the ways it can become a huge law suit is that if in every state where it is already illegal to sentence someone to AA meetings for a DUI like California, Hawaii, Oregon, Washington and NY and a judge or lawyer suggested this to the citizen, then we expose the lawyers and parole officers and judges who are AA members sending them there, when there is a conflict of interest…..huge story. Huge case.

      Also If a judge sentences someone to 50 AA meetings, then sends them to a drug class and they own part of that business and they are profiting from that they can go to jail for that.

      • bcm- I understand. You are welcome here. I think AA rhetoric is extremely dangerous mentally after the 20 year mark.

        People go insane. They drive trucks into trees. They finally blow a “gasket”

        Who cares that we are sober 20 years, 37 years. Why is that so important. The years, the rigidity. I am beginning to think that long term abstinence in AA is harmful.

        This could be another great thread and discussion if people were honest about if they have sip and a drink and NOTHING happens. Especially with people who have had long time abstinence. What about MM. Many AA members are really not religious like muslims and are not GOOD people who practice patience, tolerance and love.

        They are usually angry, rigid, controlling and stubborn. Not a good mix for uptight folks who never put their feet up and relax.

        I think AA and its stupid philosophy has really harmed us Americans in this way.

        I dont know how to create another thread yet but bcm, you will be surprised how many people leave AA and drink so moderately after decades in the rooms. But AA people say shit like ” Oh, so and so is “drinking”. I have so many interviews and emails from ex steppers who got sober when they were in their teens. Especially young people who only drank for a few years. I especially feel ripped off by AA and its bullshit belief system.

        I plan to Document this aspect of it all in my Documentary as well. The AA lie, The Abstinence myth needs to be exposed.

        I always come back to the fact that AA was created in 1935 right after prohibition. OKAY guys….the Failed War on DRUGS is failed and this is not prohibition.

        Look what having George Bush an alcoholic in the WHite House did to us.

        OMG what will happen if a Mitt Romney a MORMAN gets elected. I guess John Smith will be visiting us in a time capsule with his made up bullshit religion.

        I hope some normal beer drinking man get’s elected. I cant take any more of the made up religiosity.

        • Personally, because of my use of alcohol to self-medicate my OCD and Depression when I was young I feel it is personally dangerous for me to drink alcohol. But to each his own on that. I mentioned my length of time without drinking only to say I am not required legally to go to AA, but also have an entire adult life built around my long membership.

          I think I could have been at serious risk if I hadn’t started investigating the other side of the coin on AA, pushing down and ignoring one’s own thoughts as “bad” is not healthy at all. There are a LOT of long term sobriety suicides. Someone told me yesterday there had been 6 over the summer in my local AA area alone.

          • BCM- That is so sad about the suicides. That is something that still is not getting reported.

            I understand your choice to not drink. Moderation works for many, but there certainly are people that make the right choice not to drink! Good for you!

      • Hi Massive,

        I agree with you 100% by 20 years people are so “Over Programmed” they are often living life in a 12 Step straight jacket. No wonder so many go down hard and suicide out. Program structure that helped the early new comer in some FEW cases is now a torment for the Old Timer.

        The gift of these ex-stepper websites is the good news that after all those years without a drink, I don’t miss drinking with or without meetings. Funny how AA talks of “recovered” alcoholics, but NEVER suggests that means you don’t need AA anymore!!! That is definitely a cult control method.

        So enough time wasted, I’m growing beyond what the cult offers. I’m not forced to see people I don’t like, especially ones who are downright dishonest, mean, and often dangerous (!) – and I don’t have to listen to all the un-needed criticism.

        Even many of the really nice “sober” people I knew, some of whom I knew for many many years, showed an ugly side sooner or later- and for no good reason.

        When I first looked at this site’s pictures showing people rejoicing I thought that might be a bit extreme, but now that I am months without meetings, I am rejoicing!

        How about that! 🙂

        Keep up the great work Massive!

        • yuk- When I first looked at this site’s pictures showing people rejoicing I thought that might be a bit extreme,

          This really gave me a smile !!!! THanks. SO MUCH!!!!

  5. Many Thousands have died in AA. This should be a class action suit that compensates all who suffered loss. AA should have no problem with this being that they are a benevolent society whose very tradition prohibits the stockpiling of large sums of money.

  6. This is terrible. It would be better if there was no AA and people could stay drunk and kill each other on the highways like god intended, or kill themselves in cheap hotel rooms. AA is a perversion of natural selection.

    • Oh the familiar sounds of the arrogant 12 stepper that thinks AA is the only way to sobriety. They do not even speak of responsible drinking or harm reduction.

      You think AA members are excluded from killing themselves in cheap motel rooms?

      Maybe if AA actually had a referral service that encouraged and directed AA members with suicidal ideation to professionals that are trained to deal with that, AA would have less blood on their hands.

        • You know, I’m glad I gave up drinking and AA helped with that initially, but when I see the supressed anger in Letty’s sarcasm, it also makes me really happy to NOT be around AA’s any more.

          “Assholes Anonymous”, goodbye!

          • A friend of mine killed himself with 14 years sober in a cheap room becuse he did not ever solve his real life issues.

            Instead he hooked up with a bizzare cult that distracted him from the real problem, while he was trying to “Help” others he was not qualified to. Giving advice etc.. etc.

            Claiming he had found the one book of truth…. {Which is a joke book} the big book. But all the while as he acted like an ass claiming he now new everything {As revealed in the Big book}, his life degraded to a point where a bullet to the head seemed better than a damn drink.

            97% of those unfortunates who experience the cult quit, most real soon…. Many more need a fuller experience. I would suggest to anyone to have a drink over a shotgun blast to the head. AA is full of sick people, it is a dangerous group to make your support group. Anyone is far better off left to their own devices.

              • I lost 3 friends in the last two years. I have mentioned it before on here I am sure…

                It is really sad, mostly for those closer to them than I who are left behind.

                The worst part of those groups is that others who knew them a little conjured up all of these stories about how they had relapsed prior to the suicide,,,, upon my further investigation all these made up tales turned out to be total fabrications.

                AA is fur sure full of sicko’s.

                • What people in AA seem to fail to see or deal with is the trauma people do go through experiencing this phenomenon in suicides in AA. This is not normal. They have no trauma therapists or experience on how to help members deal with the loss of members from suicide, other than to blame them. AA and NA is just so toxic and unhealthy and emotionally damaging.

    • Letty- I can see how angry you are at AA. AA and Clancy and people like him have made AA the insane nuthouse it is.

      Don’t worry. Its shrinking every day in every way.

      Maybe you could create your own blog and get the truth out as well.

    • Or kill themselves after having been in a 12 Step Rehab when they should have been in a hospital – like Robin Williams did.

  7. A lobotomy will cure alcoholism 100% of the time.
    AA implements a sort of magical thinking lobotomy in which the member lets untrue thoughts change their beliefs.
    I would rather have people find real sustainable solutions to their problems than end up with backlash from faith healing.

  8. No home group mentioned, but this again no surprise given my experiences in Santa Clarita AA and my 15 years of involvement.

    I wonder if this took place at either at the Rafter’s Group or the newer group on Soledad Canyon, Clancy I, Ted and Fran S inspired and maintained.

  9. KellyRyan- I am not sure. I know we will find out soon though. I have spoken to her lawyer and family. This is a very very sad situation. But they are going to fight for their and Karla’s Rights.

    Do you still live out in that area. Will you join me for a protest?

  10. Here is a lawsuit that reminded me of the Karla Brada lawsuit against Alcoholics Anonymous. It is another lawsuit, this time against Catholic Community Services that hired a 12 stepper Director who seduced his patient and wanted to do a threesome with her and a 10 year old boy! She called the police on him.She has now filed a lawsuit.

    http://nadaytona.org/2012/11/05/catholic-community-services-sued-for-hiring-12-stepper-director-arrested-for-seducing-patient-and-wanting-threesome-with-10-year-old-boy/

    • These stories just get worse and worse. Anti D . thanks for posting. I created a petition o sign on .org t help stop the sentencing of criminals to AA/NA. I will repost it after Election Day.

  11. I have been battling a work related depressive disorder and an anxiety disorder since 1994. I was a federal accountant who stopped numerous fund misappropriations. I started drinking over the harassment. I was an in and out AA member since I ETS’d from the army. I never blew the whistle on my superiors in the federal govt. I was granted federal workers comp in 1994. I have been in therapy ever since.

    I am constantly harassed, and told I should go to work. We should all be fully self supporting is the AA statement an old sponsor told me. He is no longer my sponsor, and I did at one point tell him that he was not much other than a horses ass. (so rigid that he reminds me of a stick man attempting to act out a life.)

    I bought a house about 3 years ago from a realtor who claims she has 30 + years of sobriety. My anxiety disorder all but excludes me from making good decisions. I told her this prior to hiring her. This realtor manipulated the deal so that I never got an inspector to examine the house. I called her on it, and since that time, her husband, a, “recovering sex addict,” picked a fight with me at an area AA roundup. I didn’t back down, he went and hid behind his wifes skirt, and since then, I have been made a piriah by the local AA alano society. Little jokes about my mental illness, laughed at, called a crazed killer, you name it.

    It has come to the point that I don’t attend many places. I stay the heck away from her, and what is known as the, “sick click,” but she has a lot of friends. I told my story at an AA meeting, and sure enough one of it’s members made a special trip to hear me. Further humiliation followed. If anyone out there has been the object of sick AA’s then you will understand what I mean.

    • I have seen people in AA made demeaned because they battle mental health issues. Ironic that they demand disease status for alcoholism with so little proof that it is a disease at all? While depression and anxiety disorders have been linked to chemical problems in the brain, definitely diseases.

      I wish you luck in improving your health and life. Please know that many people in AA probably have mental health issues that they do not have the guts to deal with, so they attack others and cause them harm. Get a click of people together like that and it is dangerous, no other word for it. Please know that you are not the person in the wrong.

    • It is never a good idea to work with anyone in Alcoholics Anonymous on any large purchases for numerous reasons. First off it is a “secret” society of people working together who claim they don’t make money off of the fellowships of Alcoholics Anonymous or Narcotics Anonymous. They are trained to go behind peoples backs and use the network of deceit they have learned to bend people to their will – they conspire behind your back in the parking lots of 12 Step meetings. They stick together to make a buck. If you dig deeper you may find out that the home you purchased was sourced from people made to “hit bottom” to make them more compliant to the “program” and they were able to nearly steal the home like Bill Wilson did with Stepping Stones and the widow Helen Griffith. Check the financing. Was it from a Stepper Friendly mortgage broker? Chances are it was because the Real Estate brokers work in the rooms and seek out brokers that are in the program. Bill Wilson bypassed this with Stepping Stones by having the widow Helen Griffith hold the note (at a quarter of the value of the home) with the help of the Real Estate broker Joan C.

      If you look even further you may find out that the lawyer that did the closing and title search was also in the program. Is this illegal? No, but it is a conflict of interest and it is a byproduct of the 12 Steppers who stick behind each other behind your back. I am sure you will find that many things happened “behind the scenes” that AA and NA “helped.”

      “When you discover a prospect for Alcoholics Anonymous, find out all you can about him.” BB Working With Others, p.90

    • Sorry all this happened and I am not sure where you live, but it is time to drop the AA rock completely and find alternatives. Harassment, bullying and social exclusion are their main tools to force compliance. Sometimes harsh, sometimes subtle, but always there. Since I dropped the rock several years ago I have only seen 4 steppers in that entire time. Two of them bat shit crazy and the other two are nice people, but screwed up in their own ways. Since leaving, no one has called me dick head, dumb ass or asked that age old question, ” how’s that workin for ya?” Not one. Most people in the “real world” are kind and considerate and don’t need to be called “earth people” or “normies” as if I they have something wrong with THEM. I am happy to not be in AA and now among the “earth people” . I have to admit, leaving has not been easy at times, but it is a thousand times worth it to have thrown off the shackles of AA and the master puppeteer and have my very own life. My life. Not theirs, not some fictitious higher powers, mine.

      (sanctimonious tone) Oh,.. well,.. how’s that workin for ya?

      Ugh …

    • crazybiker- Sorry to hear this. I agree with spj.Its time to run from AA. Can you check out a SMART recovery meeting? There are so many of these types in 12 step. You are not alone in this . Can you file a lawsuit?

  12. that is right they should sue that Damn AA cult, they should be exposed in the open, they now have cellar phone groups, AA meetings, all night long, and they treaten to boot me off.

  13. This is absurd. If a “life coach” gave the same tragic advice you would not sue the Coaches Training Institute (or wherever they got their “training”), you would sue the individual. A sponsor is a non-professional who helps someone with the 12 Steps. Anything they do beyond that has nothing to do with AA. I do know that many AA sponsors practice therapy without a license, give plenty of advice, etc. AA did not tell them to do that. Like a life coach who delves into therapy, they can and should be sued for practicing psychotherapy without a license. But this has nothing to do with AA. Having said that, I do agree that AA should issue an addendum to the preamble read at meetings cautioning new members that, because AA is open to everyone, and because AA has a policy of “cooperating with the professional community” by allowing courts to send criminals to meetings, members should not assume that an AA meeting is any safer than, say, the supermarket or the Catholic Church.

        • You are deliberately misrepresenting what I said. I said the individual who is responsible should be sued. I didn’t say anyone should get off “scott free.” Only that AA is not responsible for the illegal actions of people who attend its meetings. Is Leaving AA responsible if one of its “members” has a drunk driving accident? Of course not. The driver is responsible for their actions. But I understand this is a forum for AA bashing and that any comment that doesn’t follow that guideline will be attacked. Perhaps if your arguments about AA were more logical, and not just made up of ad hominem attacks, you might gain more credibility with the general public.

          • HI Eric-

            No judge is sending anyone including a violent criminal to my website. That would be the day !!!

            You are banned eric. You are what we call a troll here. Bye. You are not looking for help to leave. You have not been harmed by an AA member so why are you here.

            I will leave your post up for a bit but then they will be deleted.

            • You’re right, I have no right to tell you how to post. I would like to point out that in my original post I said that AA should add to its preamble that meetings are open to anyone and that AA has officially agreed with the court system to allow them to send criminals to AA meetings. I think this is a valid point. You’re right, though, I’m not trying to leave AA, so I don’t belong here. As I understand it AA members can leave anytime they want.

              • AA members cannot leave anytime they want. What is it that you do not get? People are threatened with jail and loss of visitation with children, and their job etc if they are not attending 12 step meetings like AA and NA or 12 step rehab.

                That is why one man won 2 million dollars for being forced to a 12 step rehab.

                • I agree that people should not be forced to attend 12 Step meetings. That idea is truly absurd if it is actually happening. 12 Step meetings are nothing more than a so-called “spiritual” practice similar to a meditation community or a quasi-religious community like the SRF. Courts and governments should not be threatening penalties if people don’t attend. And I guess you’re saying that AA is at least partially responsible because they are cooperating with this behavior. I still think it’s mostly the fault of the government entities, but it does sound like AA is complying in some ways, so I agree this is wrong.

                  I would like to point out that a AA is not affiliated with any rehab, even if the rehab calls itself a 12 Step facility, so that is a separate issue. A court ordering someone to stay in rehab has nothing to do with AA, and may have more to do with the fact that rehabs are staffed by professionals and operate under certain laws. This would be similar to quarantining an Ebola patient in a hospital rather than at home for the good of the community… not that I agree with that, just saying the authorities have that power and that responsibility.

                  I have to say, looking through this site it seems that there are several legitimate and important issues being discussed. But I think these legitimate issues are obscured and diffused by the anti-AA rants, which I find just as illogical and ridiculous as some of the pro-AA rants I have read elsewhere. Both sides seem to have their crazies, and more than a few.

                  I apologize if I offended anyone. I came here looking for some facts about the case and an intelligent discussion about the issues involved. I’ll ban myself to save you the trouble. Bye bye.

                  • I think you would be shocked by what I know. I would like to educate you what is happening to Doctors and pilots. also how intrenched AA is in the courts. Can I send you some info? You sound open minded. Yes?

          • AA is responsible as the cult teaches that unless you ‘carry the message’ and unless you do intensive work with newcomers you will drink and die. This encourages every member, sick or well, to have contact with new and vulnerable (or new and dangerous) people.

            As I just said to you on the Signal CVS page, the fact that such an irresponsible and unsupervised pairing as step five exists at all is enough reason to sue AA. Only a trained priest or therapist should hear such an emotionally loaded confession and many people can and do have serious mental health problems after exposing themselves to someone not qualified to help them hold all that material. It’s very dangerous and it’s sick. I heard one guy talking about his step five. His parents used to beat him as a child. He put it on his resentment list.

            His sponsor told him he was self centred and ful of pride, that he owed an amend to his parents, and he shared that he could ‘see now why they hit me, I deserved it, I was a little shit’.

            I’ve heard people talk about sponsors directing them to make amends to abusers, rapists, violent ex husbands, even people who sexually abused them as children – we get the survivors on here all the time Eric, that’s why this site exists!

            • I am aware of a few acts in AA similar to this. One was a woman who used her husband’s 4th Step inventory in a divorce and came away with a lot of money. Another was a man who offered drugs to newcomer women in exchange the sex. I’m sure there are many such examples. My problem is with the idea of blaming AA. I’ll not saying they couldn’t do more to safeguard members. But I’ve also heard of similar acts in organizations like Agape and A Course In Miracles. These are also organizations that are quasi-religious where anyone can join and participate. Because they are so open, some bad people occasionally show up and do what bad people do. To blame the organization seems like shifting responsibility away from the individual. That’s what I’m saying.

              Another point is how people conflate AA and professional treatment businesses. You take about “12 Step rehabs” and “steppers” who work at rehabs. These are profit oriented businesses with a long history of malpractice, sometimes resulting in death. These are the bad guys. But they have nothing to do with the AA organization other than ripping off and misapplying it’s program, selling it as a treatment when it isn’t. Instead of attacking these greedy bastards you attack AA. You even suggest that people will be safer in a rehab because it’s “scientific.”. It seems like you’re so intent on blaming AA, which actually had very little control over what it’s members do, that you’re missing the real threat, or at least one of the real that’s that could be addressed in the courts with lawsuits that have a chance of succeeding.

              AA has no legal responsibility or any real power over what it’s members do or don’t do, so a lawsuit is a waste of time. I’m not saying it’s members don’t sometimes do bad things. I’m saying if they do they should be held accountable for their actions as individuals, which would have a chance of succeeding in the courts.

              • Eric

                I’m not going to argue with you but I suggest you read, The Real AA by Ken Ragge, AA Cult or Cure by Charles Bufe, and the Sober Truth by Lance Dodes and then come back and we’ll have a discussion about the treatment industry being ‘independent’ of AA.

                Meanwhile, go and do some research into the FAA HIMS programme.

                We are not talking about other quasi religious groups, we are talking about AA – a cult religion. Those other groups may well get sued, that’s their fight, and this is ours.

                If you are not saying AA could not do more to help members, what are you saying? If they could do more they should do it! The fact they are not doing it leaves them open to cases like this.

                You’ll be banned in a minute as this is a site for people LEAVING AA but you seem like an intelligent man. I beg you do do some invetigation. Remember your edict on contempt prior to investigation? So do some investigation, keep an open mind and seek the truth.

                If after doing all of that you decide you want to stay in AA that is your affair, but right now you are not sufficiently in possession of the facts to comment sensibly on this issue. I don’t think that’s out of malice like some other AAs on that newspaper page, but a misguided belief. I was just like you but the abuse problem you think is ‘just a few’ is in fact a case of rampant organised abuses. It needs to be stopped.

                You might also like AA Cult Watch, if you google it, it’s a UK group of steppers trying to do something about the abuses in AA but people contribute worldwide, I’m sure they’d love to have your help.

                Girlscout

                • I should add, what is more likely is you will do some investigation and decide you want to leave. That happens to most of us.

                  It’s a tough time, to realise you’ve been believing a lie, and dedicating your life to something that not only doesn’t actually work but messes you up psychologically.

                  We’ll be here to help you when you leave.

                  Take care

              • AA is responsible. Read the AA service Manual. Every 501c3 has responsibility. AA is not the skull & bones society. It really an organization that brings in $12 million dollars a year. Have you seen the Tax return for AA yet erci? Yes it knows. If you an dI talk on the phone….or on my radio show you would get it. Your just brainwashed form hearing the permeable read, the 12 traditions read so many times. They are utter bullshit.

                AA has knows what the courts have been doing all along. You would drop your jaw if you knew how intrenched AA is with the courts, the FAA, the government, NIA, NIAAA, NIADD. Social Workers, Parole Officers, Judges, Lawyers, the ASAM …
                Listen to my radio shows Blog talk radio Safe Recovery they are all free and you can download then to your phone. Im just saying you have an open mind….I once had no idea how bad this crap is.

    • You posted that AA has a policy of “cooperating with the professional community”. A little mendacious on your part don’t you think? Especially since a synonym for ‘cooperation’ is alliance and “AA is not allied with any, sect, denomination, politics, organization, or institution” or supermarket.

      I posted the link to the Merriam Webster link for the definition of ‘cooperation’ for your convenience:

      http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cooperation

      Oh and here’s the link for the definition of ‘allied’ just in case you need to broaden your understanding:

      http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/allied

      A synonym for allied is ‘kindred’. So is it safe to assume that AA and the courts, the supermarket and the Catholic Church are ‘kindred’ spirits?

      Oh, and another thing, many of us on this site have tried your ‘addendum’ approach at every level of the service structure and guess what? Nada, zero, zilch!

      AA as a whole is protecting their ill-defined vintage literature and at some level you know that this is the truth.

  14. Blimey, those steppers are getting a bit wearing on the Signal CVS page. I’ve managed to out one of them as a stepper, she was pretending to be a concerned citizen who was also a victim of domestic violence but foolishly put her real name on there and so I looked her up on facebook, and guess what it’s crawling with gratitude lists, references to meetings, even her sober birthday. She’s even grateful to be in ‘fit spiritual condition’. I guess she doesn’t do irony …

    These people are NUTS. Who on God’s green earth would spend two days trolling a website adamantly denying they are in AA when they are in AA all along? If the programme is so great, and God is on their side, why lie about it? She’s said the vilest things about Karla, and about her family, it’s disgusting, not sure i’ve got the stomach to argue with them anymore and not sure it’s doing any good anyway.

    Does anyone know the details of Karla’s last few months, the allegations seem to be that neither she and Earle were attending meetings, were using heavily, that there were several attempted interventions to get her out of the relationship, that she was begged to press charges etc. This is obviously not the version we have been told – but can anyone enlighten me – if it’s not in bad taste – as to what actually happened?

    Did her sponsor tell her to drop charges, and did they withold his criminal background from her?

    Bec
    x

    • Typical steppers, now its my fault I misunderstood, I ‘took the ball and ran with it’ … whatever that means. I give up.

    • They both had sponsors up until the end. That is why they are being sued. Karla and Earle were both current AA members. As people know you do not need to be sober to be an AA or NA member, you only need the desire to want to quit.

      Some steppers seem to have a unique vile way of protecting their cult. They make themselves look bad and do much of our work for us.

      Any normal person would realize you cannot run an organization with over 1 million members and not have a safety policy. It is a case of truth is stranger than fiction. For those that think AA is untouchable, think again!

      • Agree massive, I said the parents were reading the messages and what would they say to them. Their answer? ‘Where were you when your daughter needed you’.

        I give up, I can’t argue any more, they are so disgusting. It really is like arguing with a droid or a robot or something.

        Some you can tell are just devout believers, who given enough reason will actually question their own position but others, well they really will ‘go to any lengths’ to protect their ideology … and they really don’t care how they do it.

        Quite scary really … they will say or do anything.

        Bec
        x

  15. here ericess

    HI AA NY AA has a part in it. Why is it that AA members alway say that to victims both men and women when harmed by other AA members . Now it time for the Big Kahuna The General Service Board of AA, INC to be asked…what’s your part in it. Its your fault, you drank the tea….you dated eric, you wore those short shorts, you dated your old timer sponsor,

    WRONG…

    fyi

    Paul Cleary, a GS Board Member wrote a 7 page letter to the board addressing his concerns. They made him wait a year to read the letter to the board. Then they did nothing.

    The following information was taken from the Tax return of AA and their own literature
    The General Service Board of Alcoholics Anonymous Inc., serves as the custodian of AA Traditions and Funds (found on the tax return)

    (quoted from the AA Service Manuel ) Policies and Procedures.

    It acts for the society in matters of National & International Scope. The General Service Board has custodial oversight over both of these corporations.
    The General Service Board has Ultimate responsibility for seeing that both operate in the best interests of the movement. They provide services to AA Groups and Coordinate the AA programs of rehabilitating Alcoholics

    The General Service Board of Alcoholics Anonymous , Inc. and AA World Services, Inc. communicate with all groups, districts, Areas, Central Offices and the individuals who freely donate their time to the cause of AA for no pay. These positions are The GSR (General Service Rep)

  16. After much thought…. I am not fond of the pic that is here of Karla. I would rather see one that shows the happy and loved by her family Karla.

  17. Here are 2 quotes from a stepper on a stepper site. Even some of them are upset.

    “Love also involves loving the tough questions. If not, it is just masquerading as intolerance.”

    “Great quote. Far too often spirituality is used as a hammer to silence opposition.
    In our area, we have a click of addicts that see it as their duty to protect predators, thieves, wife beaters and other misanthropes from consequences. i call them the PPC, Predator Protection Committee. They also use spirituality and anonymity to silence any criticism. When that fails, they will resort to out right intimidation, using policy and misguided traditions as the weapon, and at times, physical intimidation.
    They are willing, and have, run out active service members on technicalities and outright wrong interpretation of policy, then put some of the worst predators in service positions.
    When someone lies about having cancer, uses those lies to defraud others out of thousands of dollars, then threaten a women with death to cover his lies, maybe area service isn’t for them. This is all while in ‘recovery’
    But the PPC squashes any criticism they can, using whatever means they can.
    Thats my mental pic of the ‘old guard’.”

  18. Here is a quote from the Signals thread showing that members are encouraged to take each other into their homes from Catherine2014.

    ‘Here are the quotes, it didn’t take me long to find them. Starting at page 96 of the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous,

    ‘He may be broke or homeless….. give him a little financial assistance… Perhaps you will want to take that man into your home… It may mean sharing your money and your home… A drunk may smash your furniture or burn your mattress. You may have to fight with him if he is violent. Sometimes you will have to call the doctor and administer sedatives under his direction…’

    The wrongful death suit is completely appropriate.

  19. I have question since this is gender based abuse article and I am pro equality for all. There was an incident at a church in Argentina the end of last year.

    Should these women AND their organization be held accountable via a lawsuit?

    Women took off their tops, bras & attacked by spitting on and spray painting the faces & crotches of passive men, arms linked in prayer.

    http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/between-errands-april-thompson/2013/dec/5/argentina-women-attack-church-while-men-try-protec/

    I am against violent abuse of any type. But I am also pro Tort Law reform.

  20. I know nothing about Alcoholics Anonymous, it’s “steps” or any of it’s practices. Answer me this – If Eric Earle had killed a man who was a member of Alcoholics Anonymous, instead of a woman do you think, and please answer me honestly, that there would be the same degree of hatred, vitriol, and ridicule, leveled at this organization? Not to mention the lawsuits?

    • if he had gone and had a sexual realationship with the other guy battered him, etc etc. if all else were equal. Just that the murder victims sex was switched….

      I would think so.

      So odd though that you know nothing about AA, the steps. or its practices, and found your way here. And that your finding it hard to chastize AA. You should read the rest of this sight, the orange papers, and check out my new growing site: http://therapevine.blogspot.com/p/blog-page.html
      NAdatona I almost forgot is great two, particularly if you want to see just how many of these type of stories are in the news….

      Education is a great thing, and if you do so the awnser to your question would be awnsered for you.

      • I don’t chastise something I know nothing about. I have seen people in my own neighborhood who had terrible problems with alcohol who are now sober and from what I can see are really doing quite well.

        I found my way here because I heard this lawsuit mentioned on TV.

        • I no nothing of raping a woman, yet I chastise it.
          I know nothing of murdering, yet I chastise murderers.
          I know nothing of beating my girlfriend, yet I chastise those who do this.
          I no nothing of harming children in any way, yet I abhor those who do.

          I am a very judgemental person on these topics.

          I suppose you are a better person than me fallon.

          The tales of abuse in AA go on for ever. On so many topics of disgust. If you do not know anything about it. Why do you think to give them a pass because “Fallon” does not know nothin about it.

          We handed the links to you to start your own education of discovery on the topic. Go to it!

          • I will definitely read the links you gave me, you have peaked my curiosity.

            Why the hostility? “I suppose you are a better person than me Fallon.” ?? Furthermore I am NOT giving them a “pass”

        • ok. Well now you have much you can learn. There are nice people and really fucking bad people in those same rooms holding hands.

  21. Yes . A man killed his sponsor in North Carolina Last year and went to jail for it. The sponsor was a prick, a sexual predator to Gay men or were new and vulnerable.

    Read the WHY I LEFT AA STORIES here. and go to http://www.stop13stepinaa.wordpress.com …read those stories WHY I LEFT AA stories there. That should keep you busy for a few weeks. Listen to my radio show Safe Recovery on blog talk radio.

    SO yes , yes. Many will be suing AA this coming year…..liken to the Catholic Church Scandal….

    Why are you here?

      • I have read several tales of gay preditor sponsors having the gay people they sponsor read the 5th step naked.

        help us expose it Fallon.

        Women get the headlines yes, I agree, but that is the greater media mindset, not mine, I want to bring it all out into the light of day… Every bit of it.

        • oddness I have read several tales of gay preditor sponsors having the gay people they sponsor read the 5th step naked. me too…this is so sick !!!

          • Happens in London, there’s a woman who runs a ‘joys of recovery meeting’ very hard line, like Pacific in the US, members are not allowed to speak until they’ve done step five, can’t go to other unapproved groups, must have this woman run their life,and rumours are girls have to strip naked to read their step five to her! Everyone knows, including intergroup and no one will do anything as ‘we are autonomous’ …. its fucking nuts!

            • PS Fallon might be a concerned citizen, but something smells fishy, great if she wants to learn, but I’m awaiting ‘but it helps millions’ – call me a cynic, or maybe my stepper radar is getting better….

            • it is the cult within the cult phenomena… My last sponsor talked openly about these cults within the cult.
              I was agast as he seemed not to really care much of any of the horrors he freely admitted were always going on in his 30+ years of recovery.
              He actually seemed to almost get off on it.

              • AA really is a culture of deviance. They relish tales of social and behavioral deviance and repeat the ones they hear and change their own stories to be more deviant than they probably were before AA. It is an ongoing competition of deviant superiority – I was worse than you. How does that help someone actually recover?

    • It is most unfortunate. I am confident they started with good intentions and really thought they had an answer to a vexing social problem. What it has become is also unfortunate. Unfortunate for the millions of people that religious faith-healing simply doesn’t work for and all those that have been harmed by an ecosystem of righteousness and secrecy. Unfortunate for all those people that thought they were engaging in overcoming a substance abuse problem in a safe place only to find financial and sexual predators and the mentally ill were in the rooms with them. Unfortunate that there are superior solutions for addressing substance abuse and they have been dismissed or suppressed by a dominant and domineering outdated recovery infrastructure that is based on religious, faith-healing nonsense from the 1930’s. Unfortunate indeed.

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