A Gathering Place for Predators Alcoholics and Narcotics Anonymous by Amber Weinacht, Yahoo Contributor Network Oct 21, 2013

What if, at the lowest time in your life, those who are supposed to help you, prey on you? It happens every day, in countless AA and NA rooms across the world. The story has the same lame routine and ring to it every time. The new, freshly sober gal comes to a meeting, hoping for clarity and a new way of life, and before you know it, there’s a man schmoozing her up, trying to get on her good side, with more than just good intentions at hand. This has been termed “13th stepping” and most women new to the program have no idea what 13th stepping even is. The one thing most freshly sobered up AA and NA patrons usually don’t count on is meeting other people who are more sick than themselves. They come in with rose colored glasses on, ready to see the world with new eyes and never figure that the problems they might encounter in the rooms themselves may be as bad or worse than the problems they already have. The question is, why don’t the old-timers and those who have been around the program for a while help these women? Better yet, why doesn’t the World Board in both programs set forth clear rules on this issue?

Those within the walls of AA and NA include those that want to be sober and are there of their own free will, those that aren’t sure if they even have a problem but want to check out a meeting or two, those ordered to attend by judges in cases such as drunk driving, and then there are those who have to come as part of a treatment program for other problems such as sexual crimes or other felonies they have committed. There are countless felons in AA, who by all standards are not all bad, but there are those who have committed sexual abuse, there those that have tried to kill their wives and girlfriends, those who have raped, and pedophiles. The list goes on and on. Perhaps judges in criminal courtrooms should stop ordering those who have committed sexual offenses into these programs and instead insist that they get individual counseling or inpatient treatment. Sadly, that wouldn’t entirely solve the problem even if such orders were issued however, because once those with sexual addictions figure out that meetings are a place to meet vulnerable women, they keep going back, even after court ordered sanctions have ended.

Frequently in the rooms, people say, “Keep your own side of the street clean, and take your own inventory.” What this means essentially is don’t worry about what others are doing. It is none of your concern. This is precisely the response that one newcomer got from from the World Board of NA after calling to call attention to a man with seventeen years of sobriety that made 13th stepping a regular habit. “What this man does is single out the newcomers. He’s around fifty years old and keeps an eye open for any fresh meat that comes through the doors. Doesn’t matter their age. They could be his age, or even under 18. If they look good to him, he pounces. He got to me when I had about thirty days sober. What these guys do is take women like me who have to leave everything behind in order to start a new life, and they sort of brainwash us I guess, make us feel like we can depend on someone and that all is not lost. What eventually ends up happening is that these girls and women build their foundation upon him and other men like him, and eventually they find out that not only is he lying to her, he’s screwing just about every other chick in the room. I’ve talked to women who wanted to kill themselves over this guy, and let me be real clear about this, it’s not just the guy that makes them feel this way. It’s the head game. These women are already at their lowest and desperately just need to feel like someone cares and we all know that’s human nature. This one man in particular is known on a national level in NA and has even gone as far as to pick up a sponsor on the World Board. I have no doubt that was intentional. He serves on state boards in Nebraska and attends national conferences where he is invited to speak often. Everyone knows about him, and when I called the World Board to report him and the damage he was causing, I was essentially told to go call someone who cares, that they don’t take anyone’s inventory. This isn’t a joke. The guy has something like 14 felonies, is one of the most manipulative men I’ve ever met and people just laugh it off while high-fiving him for being the guy that has three girlfriends in every state in the U.S. Meanwhile women keep relapsing over it. Some have relapsed over and over because he just doesn’t stop. This one guy and his actions have the potential to kill several, and he’s only one of hundreds, if not thousands who are lurking,” said one anonymous NA member.

Are you shocked yet? Undoubtedly, if you’ve been around NA a while, you know his name, but chances are you won’t say it, due to that darn anonymity crap, which is evidently just another loophole for the sick and demented to be able to get away with this kind of stuff. Alcoholics Anonymous is no different. “I wasn’t so much a newcomer anymore but had one man approach me who seemed very nice at first. I wasn’t very trusting of anyone, but somehow he convinced me that I could trust him and we built what I thought would end up being a solid friendship. I confided in him, and he in me, and then things went south. He started making crude comments to me and at first I laughed it off, but when I asked him to stop, it continued. I had other women in the program telling me that everyone knew he was a predator and that I really needed to be careful. It didn’t stop and one day I became very angry and decided to let him know, in no uncertain terms, that I’d had enough, and he better stop. The end result was horrendous. I ended up losing several friends whom by all accounts, I needed in my fellowship, and he accused me of ‘playing victim’. He said he’d done nothing wrong and that my not saying anything to him at first was me giving him permission to treat me that way. That’s no different than telling a woman she deserved to be raped because she wore a dress and not pants. After it was all said and done, I realized that this man had even gone to such an extent to get close to me, that he offered to be a sponsor to one of my family members who was also in the program. That’s pretty sick,” said an anonymous AA member.

The World Boards of Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous both have no position on this issue apparently. AA members have seen men come in drunk into meetings and be asked to leave, but the predators are allowed to stay. Naturally, the women who come in drunk are welcomed with open arms. Perhaps that shouldn’t be such a surprise however, as the founder of AA, Bill Wilson, was an incredible womanizer himself. He was so bad, apparently, that he had to have others keep watch over him in meetings and functions and when he’d get that familiar gleam in his eye, the other members would distract him. It is rumored that one woman named Helen Wynn, one of his mistresses, still getspayments to this day from his estate which are taken out of donations in meetings that are sent to World Services. Both of these facts are common place knowledge but it’s become part of the unspoken code. What does that tell you? It really isn’t surprising that evil lurks. Bill did, after all, write the 12 Steps of AA with the help of a ouija board and that is no secret either. Incidentally, the NA program was modeled after the AA program with a slight tweaking of the steps that members follow.

As a side note, men aren’t the only predators in the programs, as women have been noted to 13th step men too, but it is rare and the destruction caused by men is unparalleled. Women have died at the hands of male predators in the programs. Google ‘predators in AA‘ or ‘predators in NA‘. The results will make you sick to your stomach, and yet, even the old-timers who have watched it happen for decades simply turn a blind eye. They know which ones are sick, and yet do nothing. Women who feel uncomfortable in the rooms need to come forward, and they need to come forward in droves and demand that this criminal behavior not be tolerated any longer. It needs to be stopped, and it needs to be stopped now. Those who ignore this issue are as bad as the predators themselves. Perhaps a few lawsuits would set the World Boards straight?

see the link here …http://voices.yahoo.com/a-gathering-place-predators-12365031.html?cat=9

Writers note: There is a documentary type film being made on this issue, which I have no direct connection to, but found online while talking to others and researching this topic. It is called “The 13th Step” and the Facebook page can be seen here:https://www.facebook.com/pages/13stepping/469973469749422. If you’d like to view preview trailer on the film, there are several links on the Facebook page, this one included:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YlfIdCwzYQ&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D_YlfIdCwzYQ&app=desktop.

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166 thoughts on “A Gathering Place for Predators Alcoholics and Narcotics Anonymous by Amber Weinacht, Yahoo Contributor Network Oct 21, 2013

  1. Thank you for sharing my content. It is vital that this problem be addressed, and I am glad to see it was picked up by your website! Make sure to check out the links I posted regarding the film being made, which by the way, I am not associated with in any way. I found it during my research, and although there are some changes I would make, I think overall it will be a great film to spread awareness as well. Thanks again!

  2. I completely agree that there are some men & women in the rooms that have motives that are crappy. I dont agree that women are less likely to 13th step. Each other and men. But you answered your own question. ( in a way that doesn’t help save anyone’s life by the way) stated the truth & took a good inventory on the situation. You said that you were warned he was a predator (whoever he was) Did you want him thrown out after you proved it to yourself? I also know for a fact that both programs make serious suggestions that you stay out of relationships for a year. If you had enough time to hear the term 13th step then I know you heard that. Now you are taking your feelings of betrayal out on an organization that has saved millions because you got your feelings hurt. At least you are sober/clean enough to post this & thats a blessing. For an addict one day clean is a miracle. Other than your feelings, did your short time in the rooms contribute to any of that? Sounds like it might have. Call your old sponsor or find a new one.

    • Joel you can go pick on someone else you creep. AA is a sexual predator playground and Amber is helping exposing this. We need all the help we can get, and not your sick 12 step kinda help.

      • Give me a break!!! I use to go to meetings and got hit on all the time by women. It would usually happen outside the meeting I went to, so nobody would know. Women go to meetings too to find men with low self esteem. If a man makes a move on women it her responsibilty to say no thanks. Stop playing the victim card. Growup

        • Hi DANNY- We know that. This writer mentioned that men also get hit on and 13 stepped. We address this in my film. ANYONE who is this cold to a person who is victimized is not welcome here. We support any person who has been harmed. Your style —- is very stepper like—-And dont tell us to gorw up- we are grown up buddy boy.

          Move along.

    • joel, There is a slight difference between telling someone no relationships and warning them that there are dangerous people in the room. Especially when they are often dangerous in the immediate.
      By the way, what about taking your own inventory? Wasn’t your post revealing of “a thousand forms of self.” It sure did not do anyone any good outside of yourself.

    • Joel- if you haven’t noticed you are still telling strangers “us” what to do without asking you. We don’t give ——-what you think about anything.

      Taking our feelings out on an organizations. Is that what they said to the Catholic Church as it got sued for child molestation? NOPE!

      “For an addict one day clean is a miracle”……really….Its not a miracle
      ..its a choice.
      you said Other than your feelings, did your short time in the rooms contribute to any of that? Sounds like it might have.

      We dont have any of what you are saying… Call your old sponsor or find a new one.

      You don’t get to tell us what to DO!!!!!!!!EVER!!!!!!!!!AGAIN!!!!!!!!
      we are not in AA and you dont get to boss us around.

      Your banned and all your post that are pro AA and judgmental toward us will be trashed.

    • Blame and shame the victim and tell them they need to “call their sponsor”, in other words, get blamed and shamed some more.

      That is an old, tired rag and it doesn’t work unless someone buys into it. By the author writing so openly about her experience, I believe she is far too strong to fall for your tired, nasty BS. That must really hurt, doesn’t it? You’ve got no power in your words.

    • joel,
      thankyou for reminding me why i left AA.
      You have no understanding or empathy for those harmed by AA.
      Like others in AA, you blame those who were harmed by it, for trying to
      gain help around what happened to them, at the hands of those they were told to trust.

      I was not told the men who sexually harmed me ,with obscene phone calls, stalked,and grabbed and groped me,were predators..or that the man who threatened my life was a wife beater..
      i was told “Be friends with them,don’t take it too seriously go to there homes…today i believe i was set up by both some men and some women in AA all who had long term sober time…

    • There are some people who do that but there millions how don’t aa saved my life I’ve been 13 step and I did my step work looked and my part and got over it. And now I’m friends with this guy. And he hasn’t changed but I have and that’s life. Aa is a good place and lots of recovery of I don’t like the meeting go to another one or start your own there women who do the same thing. And I’m a women saying this.

      • hi KIM – Well – so – you are accepting a predator who preyed on you . as okay. NOt Okay with us. You dont have a PArt in anything when it comes to sexual predators. You are speaking AA loaded language—- which is like cult speak. Try to use your critical thinking again and you will be free from AA brainwashing.

        • There are sexual predators everywhere….the Anonymous fellowships work in principle for people to talk of a problem specifically in order to have unity…but like generations ago when people would go to a village elder, a prayer group etc. Those who are opposed to this usually have a money issue, they are either receiving money from someone or paying it out to be ” cured”…

          • hi Jac- ah ah- you say the cliche ” predators are everywhere”

            Sorry – but they can be anywhere — but they are NOT EVERYWHERE like in AA in such high numbers. No where on the planet are there so many predators sent – go there on their own and grown inside of AA with the anonymity factor. So no – Jac— they is nothing like AA except cults-

  3. First of all, why are you referring to me as if I am the one stating this happened to me when I clearly stated there were two anonymous members? Second of all, this woman was warned after the fact that he was a predator (in the second situation) and was told that everyone knew what he was up to but no one said anything until she came out and started telling everyone what happened. Third of all, both of these women are still clean and sober, no thanks to the AA cult. Get your facts straight, and then we will talk. While I am not disputing that the rooms of AA and NA do help people get sober, you better go find someone to troll, because I will fight this issue to the death of the issue itself. Guys like you don’t get to tell women “take your own inventory” anymore.

  4. Oh, and one last thing…you said, “I also know for a fact that both programs make serious suggestions that you stay out of relationships for a year. If you had enough time to hear the term 13th step then I know you heard that.”

    Thank you for reminding me of why those who 13th step have no excuse for their behavior, outside of the fact that much of what some of them do should bring about criminal charges.

    • Amber thanks for posting here. Joel is a troll. People like him hate the fact that strong women are standing up to the sexual predation and emotional abuse in AA and NA.

      AA and NA does NOTHING to protect women from predators.

      • I expect a LOT more trolls, but unfortunately for them, the issue stands for itself. Nothing anyone can say can distract from it, because it is the truth.

        The truth shall always set you free “Joel”. Oh, and that’s a great “program” you’re working there buddy. 🙂

    • Trolls don’t bother me. I actually welcome them. They’re usually drama queens and go spouting off to others about this or that. People who react negatively usually do more good in attracting more people to whatever it is they are griping about, than others. Of course they don’t know they do this, which makes it all the more awesome to me. It’s like if you go to a good restaurant and really like it. You’ll probably tell a few people. But if you go to a restaurant and find a bug in your food, you’re going to tell the world. Normally, you wouldn’t go to that restaurant, but journalism and social media is different. People are morbid creatures and want to go see what is being talked about, and they don’t stop until their need is satisfied. I LOVE negative publicity when it comes to my articles or any issue I am trying to raise awareness on. I would block them after they get a good run, but let them have some time with it. They usually just make themselves look like idiots in the end anyway. 😉

      In other news, how do I change the little emoticon attached to these comments? I want a happier one!

  5. Thanks for sharing Amber’s article with me on Facebook Massive. The link didn’t work but when I went to find it myself it led right back here to all my LeavingAA buddies.

    Amber that is a fine and wonderfully written piece. Thank you for writing it and I look so forward to reading more from you.

    I am so, so busy with clients, developing a community project…and now the non-profit side I have been unable to blog much lately. But I will be back.

    I will NEVER forget what AA did to me and what I have learned about it as an organization since I have left is HORRIFIC, appalling and CRIMINAL!

    It has DESTROYED people; especially women and children!

    It has not helped MILLIONS as the zombies have been trained to repeat over and over without EVER doing any “thinking” or research. Those fools get in there and hear those slogans and bs over and over until they begin just mindlessly regurgitating the crap like rabid monkeys or something.

    But that’s what happens when one chants: “WE THINK NOT” in unison every damned day… (I NEVER, NEVER said that; that’s when they should have known that I was an AA-REJECT!) LOL

    Those who read and research and study will discover that some people who were destined to stop drinking on their own (which most adults who want to STOP are successful at doing with NO TREATMENT at all!) do so because they themselves make a choice and do it because that is what they WANT to do. It just so happens that if they happen to do that while going to AA will they give over their POWER to AA and AA gets the credit…

    But AA never takes any credit for the people it harms…oh “NO!”

    Alcoholics Anonymous, its zombies and bastardized Old Oxford Group re-hashed religion has hurt millions. Those who have been harmed just do not get together over crappy coffee in basements “sharing” about it all over the damned place…YET! That is why we have this forum and others like it. That is why you will see MORE sites like this and more people writing like Amber.


    Alcoholics Anonymous will be forced to CHANGE or it will DIE…be INSTITUTIONALIZED or INCACERATED!

    In celebration of my AA-FREE year I want to finish the suicide video I started on after I did the Karla Brada video.

    More people are sexually exploited, raped, emotionally and mentally tortured, financially abused and end up committing suicide after their trip through The Valley AA Death than many people realize of even care to realize. People die alone, rejected, abused and misused after exposure to AA…and nobody is ever the wiser to the role AA plays in these suicide deaths. They just blame the victim and keep selling their kool-aid to fools to fuel the multi-billion dollar 12 step racket.

    And I honestly think the average American public just does not want to know what is going on. They want this issue swept under the rug so that people/ our society can just keep smiling and pretending that their beloved Alcoholics Anonymous FACADE is actually helping people.

    They want to know that there is some quick and easy place to just send drunk-asses to for so-called “help”… They don’t care if it helps, just get the DRUNKEN ELEPHANT out of the room!

    That is why substance use…over use and abuse problems are doing nothing but getting worse evey year in this country. DUH! Time to get real!

    We would be lucky if AA were just a placebo and simply did not help, but did not hurt.

    I sincerely have come to the conclusion after communicating with you all, researching and reading the facts ad nausea that participation in AA and exposure to the abusive people and the highly dysfunctional sponsor/sponsee relationship has actually driven many, many people to suicide…and murder.

    It is a true sin and a CRIME!

    Keep writing Amber!

    The Pen is Mightier Than the Troll!

    PS: I noticed that the icon they use for you on this site is the same one that you put in when you register for a WordPress blog… That’s when my icon started coming up with my “blue-lady” here that I used for the blog…

    • Illbefree- SO nice to see you here. Always love your writing too! Worked hard today. Gonna go watch Anger Management to see if Charlie will make fun of AA again !!!

    • You said it well. You’re a great writer. Maybe u could help wtiting up info about how unsafe AA is. I’m not a good writer or I would help.
      We need to get the word out. I’m thinking the American association of psychologists, social workers, American association of psychiatry or whatever the name is, Lots of ppl. Like do massive mailings.

      Idk we all need to strategize.

      Good to hear from u illbefree. 🙂

      • Lets do it next week ! I agree. Bit busy with the film making but this sorta action is why I am making the film. I want to create social change and make AA no longer the Gold Standard BS it’s promoted to be. What a F…..lie

  6. Wow, that was wonderfully written! There’s no way that even I can follow that up. In answer to why the article is not currently up, it has been resubmitted for edit and is now just waiting for editors to push it through. That’s the only downfall of the Contributor Network. It takes forever sometimes! My trolls are probably rejoicing but they’ll soon realize they counted their chickens too soon. Heh heh! I’ll let everyone know when it’s back up, and will check out this latest FB page that was mentioned. 🙂


    if you are a alcoholic and need help,. Beware of the AA NA groups that you go to,
    number 1, any group that owns its own building or has a member ship with your name and telephone number, or asks for alno dues, AA is free.

    2 aa is suppose to be a anonymous program, do not give out personal information about your self,

    beware that AA is a front for crimmal organizations what like making money off there suckers, and they also like suckering in females for realitionships or sex,

    if you are a alcoholic by all means stay sober, don’t drink, get help but remember that AA is not supervised by anyone anyone can start a AA group or nA

    the main reason is to free your self ffrom addiction, and that is what it is about
    it is not about being abused by fake alcholics and addicts,
    read this web site here word for word, and listen to its owner


  8. Hey…

    Thank you all so much. Suntime…Massive…Amber…AntiD…everyone: Your sincere words mean so much because I know it is not that ol load of BS that AA once got us all so used to. Thank you!

    I really am always here. I never go too far away and it comforts my Soul and my mind to know that you are all always out here sharing your experiences and giving genuine support and compassion to those hapless souls who stumble on here as I did bleeding from the soul and psyche almost a year ago after crawling from the grips of AA.

    So, really… THANK YOU! I am in such a better place now and this is largely due to the Connection and Care I received from you all.

    Massive and AntiD are my ANGELS. I appreciate y’all so MUCH! Do not hesitate to call or text me with whatever whenever… Sure, I am busy doing “stuff”…but never too busy for you. (I can’t wait to talk to you about the community initiative I am working on!) People need the work you both do out here.

    ::::::::::AA is not any treatment for alcohol misuse / over-use; AA a religious-cult of lies and abusive people many of whom are sexual predators. The meetings are not facilitated by any qualified counselors or coaches. Criminals attend many meetings and there is no security. Violence sometimes breaks out. People have been shot and stabbed at these meetings. No rules or laws for confidentiality are in place to protect you at all if you disclose your personal business at those AA (or NA) meeting tables. AA hurts more people than it helps IF it actually helps anyone at all. AA was totally made up by an old sex-hungry drunk who plagiarized the Old Oxford Group Religion and pawned it off SUCCESSFULLY as a treatment for an invented disease that can only be “cured” by praying right, attending meetings, obeying so-called sponsors/alcoholics and following their steps. AA lies. AA kills:::::::::::

    It is a MIRACLE that I made it out of AA when I did. I was primed for a real kill. They had me where they wanted me. I am thankful, grateful and overjoyed that I was allowed to break FREE!

    Enjoy the weekend everybody!

    • ill b free,
      i want to thankyou for your posts,they helped me when i left AA.
      when i left i was in a very bad place too. AA mentaly and emotinally harmed me a great deal.

      its been 1 year and 6 months since i left.i have changed and so has my life.

      before i left AA i kept hanging on to my old home that was for a family (House) too large for one person too hard to maintain cold in winter but couldnt afford to heat it.
      i had no work and couldnt function to work i had no hope of ever working again.
      i had no close friends only saw people in meetings.
      i had not had a relationship none at all for many years and remained celabate alone isolated.While attending AA.
      had none , not one good thought about myself only bad thoughts, thinking i was a monstor.
      full of shame and self blame. suisidal. confused.

      since leaving AA
      I moved from my home of 18 years into better acomodation.Easy to maintain,near my work,cosy and warm in winter.
      I have a few good friends.
      i work and earn my wage.I am financialy secure now.
      i have a relationship.(My builder friend i dated a few week ago, who recovered another way came back )
      i think better thoughts about myself
      im happier more often

      I still have difficulty handling some people, there are nasty people everywhere,
      i still mistrust people, a lot of that is due to my time in AA.
      i still get panic around involvment with a man,and sex..again not all but a lot of that comes from my time in AA.
      But continuing going to AA would not help me with that ,and would probably make it worse.

      im still glad i left.

      • sally- That is so nice to hear how your life has gottem better since leaving AA. Imagine if we one day had an Anti AA ex stepper conference the types of “shares” we all would have ! Whats another word for share?
        I cant stand it still.
        I have many words I refuse to use because they are such AA stupid rhetoric triggers.
        I do feel more a apart of life since leave 2 years and 6 months ago. Im happier , more relaxed and have some nice women friends. Not a lot , but a few …which is normal. my children say Im nicer to be around and not so uptight and all around better.

        I have more fun at parties with normal people. I hate when I run into steppers at Hollywood parties. They are such a buzz kill.

        The first was a lot of deprograming, a lot of crying , mourning of the years I wasted in AA. The second year I got mad about it a lot. Now its less and less but I can still get sad or mad of the wasted service, time and energy I gave to AA.

        hope by my film . video and 2 blogs we can help others when they leave, and I know we do because I do talk to ex steppers on the phone or Skype all over the world.

        Each one of us who blogs here is helping anther e stepper leave or in process. You all help me. Thank you!

        I am very excited about my upcoming trips and how the film is progressing. All the interviews are being shot on the CANON 5D so they look incredible and are shot by real filmmakers, although I think the early raw footage that is in the trailer is very important and will stay in the film is good gorilla film making and has the heart of the film in it.
        Happy Saturday.

        • What if trailers of your film…or the actual film were to be screened during and around their beloved conferences?

          50th International Women’s Conference
          Honolulu, Oahu, Hawaii, The 50th International Women’s Conference in February 6-9 2014.

          Here are the upcoming scheduled conferences…

          International Women’s Conference — 50th Annual
          The 50th Conference In the 50th State
          Honolulu, Hawaii
          Thursday, 6 February 2014 – Sunday, 9 February 2014
          Additional information at this web site

          August 2014
          Empty Chair Men’s Retreat — 13th Annual
          Cross Lake, MN; Contact Jamie M +1 (612) 227-9747 for more information
          Friday, 22 August 2014 – Sunday, 24 August 2014
          FLYER: http://www.aastpaul.org/publicdocs/events/20140824.emptychair.pdf

          July 2015
          Alcoholics Anonymous International Convention
          Atlanta, Georgia, USA
          Wednesday, 1 July 2015 – Friday, 3 July 2015

          July 2020
          Alcoholics Anonymous International Convention
          Detroit, Michigan, USA
          Wednesday, 1 July 2020 – Saturday, 4 July 2020

          Inspire any IDEAS?

          Let’s DREAM BIG for a moment here. What if screenings of your film were scheduled in the vicinity of each of their upcoming conferences? It’s just a “dream” right now…but I sure am enjoying it… Mmmm…Mmmm….Mmmmm 😛

          My ex-sponsor used to virtually salivate dreaming about the upcoming conference in 2020 and praying to her “higher-power” that she will be alive to attend it… Boy! I sure would like a reason to look forward to THAT shyt too… 😀

          I’d love for that bitch to still be alive too IF our AA Awareness Movement and your movie somehow seeps into their damned kool-aid…


          Fundraising is key to anything though… AA has money!

          We also need something like their little “membership survey” here to represent the people who have gone into and left AA. It’s a very nice looking propaganda document they have here:

          AA’s letter of “anonymity” to the media ought to be re-written as AA’s letter of hiding predators from scrutiny. Here it is: http://aa.org/lang/en/subpage.cfm?page=39

        • massive,
          thankyou. yes the AA words can trigger me too at times. another word for share,i dont know either, Pre AA i didnt have a name for that. people talked to me about there lifes pre AA, there past life’s there present lifes there problems there interests…they just talked, and i did too and no one gave that a name.

          i used the gratefull word last night, said it to my boyfriend i said i had to leave AA to get gratefull for what i got.L.O.L.

          i dont speak…yeh speak..thats it, not share, speak.
          to him often about AA..just now and again.we cant get much time together because he works days i work nights..and he has his 2 younge children to visit.

          but im glad of when we can be together.

          i have a few nice women friends from my old voluntary work place,who kept in touch with me,after i left to do paid work…

          AA would kill a good party , they shouldnt be allowed in them.. But then again it is Haloween right now in Uk so i expect i will be bumping ito them more, they wont need monster masks L.O.L aw well if they get angry at that remark too bad my sarcasim didnt get removed, and they need to learn to laugh at themselfs and chill out.

          you spent half your life in there, (when you didnt have to ) so you have had to go through more upset in leaving than most of us.

          i hope the film gets some real recognision from all quarters of the world..

      • Sally… I’m so glad you left too! 😀

        Thank you so, so so MUCH for gifting that (How about “gifting” instead of “sharing”? LOL)… Thank you so much for gifting that to me. Surely, we have helped one another through this. Your unique voice, experience and generosity of spirit has certainly helped everyone who has come to this site injured and abused by AA and has gotten to the gift of your words which let them know…let us all know that WE Are NOT ALONE.


        We know that now, don’t we Sally?


        The best way to receive help is to give help… That is what I have always advised my students and clients. I was in so much PAIN last year… I chose to GIFT and to write my way on thru and by the Grace of the Universe I connected with REAL caring, precious people on here who knew what I was going through. They empathized with me and REALLY responded to what I was saying…though much of it was extremely “toxic”…

        I was so surprised after being in AA for almost 2 years to come HERE and to have people actually LISTEN to me, EMPATHIZE & ACCEPT me without the judgment, condemnation and victim blaming… It was a balm to my soul. Only one who has survived the typical treatment of people in AA can even fully appreciate that.

        Slowly I just continued to use my energy and the POWER that AA tried to suck from me in order to CREATE and to COMMUNICATE instead of to DIE and DESTROY as AA and my hypnotized, wicked, monkey-minded, sponsor and grand sponsor would have wanted as punishment for me for being so “hard-headed” their favorite descriptive for me.

        Ha h aha ah aha…

        I want to write a book one day called How to Be Hard-Hearted & LIVE…cause that’s what it takes to survive AA (and NA and any 12 step bs) and escape it to reclaim your own life on your own terms.

        I am so glad you are in such a better place right now. You have worked hard for it. You deserve to ENJOY it… What a more joyful season this will be for us this year than last year, eh? I celebrate you Sally. Thank you! We need you and more just like you…and because of your gifts and words…more are coming…more are coming….

        Keep GIFTING Dear Heart…

        • ill b free,
          thankyou. your such a good writer. gifting yes thats a good word.
          I think the same way about leaving AA web site and people as you do.
          it is only here where anyone could possable understand me.witout the understanding valadation and empathy, and info i got from here i may have sank into darkness, and despair.i was already on my way there, just before i typed these words into my computer…”people who have left AA” and found you all.
          they shouldnt be sending young folk there. and us oldies should have been informed of other ways.

          i liked your toxic gifts, i read one that had a swear word in it where you called them bas****s and it made me laugh and i hadnt laughed in such a long time and i liked it just cause you had the balls to say it.And its the truth some of them are just that a bunch of bas****s.

          you also gifted about your own Pre AA past about domestic violence and what your mam went through too, and that really helped me.
          in AA, where i live, we werent allowed to do that..talk about abuse that had happened to us,unless we were saying “We did it we caused it or anything we may have done to them ..like hit them, back.

          i hope your book gets wrote i shall read it.
          take good care

          • Thank you so MUCH Sally!

            You just made me smile. That’s my kind of “gifting” 😀

            Oh MEMORIES…

            Me and my bad azz mouth (or typing in this case). I was SO angry when I first connected with you guys; angry, devastated, confused, afraid….

            But you should have heard the things I said a co-ed AA tables when I first got in there.


            My ex-sponsor told me that I could just sit at the tables and say whatever I needed to say and no one would judge me or attack me in any way. The tables were there to SHARE she claimed.

            So, I tested that shyt out…You should have just seen the men’s faces! 😀 I said something like, “And I don’t know why the hell I’m supposed to be the one here talkin about I’m an FN al-ca-damned-holic—or any woman for that matter. Every grown ass person here knows that the main reason most women drink is cause of you dog-damned men and your FN uncontrollable bicks!” (But I did not say “bicks” I said the real word out loud, nasty and obnoxious!)

            Oh you should have seen their faces….PRICELESS…

            I got a rep right there in the beginning. Men who had not met me would say, “Oh…Hi…I’ve heard about YOU!”

            Ha aha ah aha aha…

            I think that’s why none of them ever dared to take any slimy-azz 13th nasty step toward me. They probably knew that the 14th step would entail some form of castration…

            But there was a LOT of sexual encounters going on all around and in between them all. One fellowship “friend” who was trying to get me to fire my sponsor actually told me that my sponsor was known as being rather whorish back in the day and had slept with almost every single man in the fellowship.

            I told her I didn’t believe and wanted to hear no more of it… Cause my Perfect Pedestal Sitting Sponsor just would NEVER do such a thing…or things…


            So, glad we got outta there Sally…so, so, so GLAD!

  9. We are going to use that flyer you made sometime this month passing it out outside of meetings. I wish you were here in LA or I could be there. I know we will meet someday. Maybe at a Film Festival in your area.

    • Absolutely PHENOMENAL Massive! I am so glad that flyer will be given out…and honestly, I may get an opportunity to come to CA. sooner than we think. I’m not sure yet. I still have a lot to do.

      I was also hit with a GRAND INSPIRATION this afternoon. I almost called you, but I have no details on how we would do it…I just SEE IT…

      The confirmation came today when you wrote the word “CONVENTION”….

      Oh how my ex sponsor and the entire AA army is looking forward to their next Grand AA Convention…and once you and I talk…maybe we will be looking forward to the big shin-dig too…


      • yea lets talk about your idea. I just got back from a badly needed weekend with normal new girlfriends in Los Olivos, Solvang, WIne Country ! We went to Bars with live bands , big barns with crazy music and all normal people. Dancing, singing, walking around shopping, getting a chinese foot rub and I didn’t blog for alomst 3 days, no computer, no talking about my film except a few of these ladies asked how my Film was going. I kept it short and said great.

        I am so f**king glad I left AA at mid life and not when I was 80!!!!

        I feel refreshed, rejuvenated and rested! The sky was filled with stars and the night was so quiet compared to nights in West LA. I need to get away more and leaving the computer home helps tremendously!

        We even veered off the main highway and went to this little tavern/restaurant that was built in the early 1800’s. OMG The Buffalo burger and fries were to die for. I felt like on was on a movie set for the Wild West! It was such a nice get away.

        I have never done anything like this before. Im over 50 now and I wasnt sad or mad about th ewasted years in AA , I was just enjoying every moment. AA is filled with such lies and bullshit

        I’m glad Im free.

        I’m not grateful. hahahah lolol

        I’m Happy and I’m free!!!

        • Oh what a delight to read Monica! SUCH JOY.

          I am so happy that you are Happy & Free… You remind me of a cool song from the 70’s…
          Listen to this w/ me? It is so FOR US ALL! 😀

          Read these lyrics!

          You know, there was a time when, if someone in AA told you to do something, you did it. Bam! Right on! No questions asked. It was, “Yes, AA” and “Yes, Sponsor.” You
          never said, “No to AA.” You know? Hah. But, you know, AA survivors are changing things nowadays.
          It’s a new day, Newcomers. Folks want to take their own lives into their hands and
          make their own choices.

          No longer do they wanna go along with The Program ’cause AA zombies say it’s right. You know what I mean? Let me tell ya what I’m talkin’ about, ya see, ’cause.

          I don’t want no gold watch for workin’
          Fifty years from nine till five.
          a-while the boss is guzzling champagne,
          And I’m beltin’ beer in some dive.

          ‘Cause I want to be happy and free,
          Livin’ and loving for me.
          I want to be happy and free,
          Livin’ and lovin’ for me.
          Like a natural man (like a natural man).
          A natural man (like a natural man).

          Well, now, I refuse to listen to people’s
          Thinkin’ that I live too high.
          I’m gonna taste it now,
          Before my one life streaks on by.

          ‘Cause I want to be happy and free,
          Livin’ and lovin’ for me.
          I want to be happy and free,
          Livin’ and lovin’ for me.
          Just like a natural man (like a natural man).
          I said, a natural man (just like a natural man).

          Well, now, I tried to do,
          What others said that I should do.
          They said I that I should,
          Fit in, fool ’em, fake it.
          Well, those kinda do’s,
          Just make me crazy and blue.
          Man, I just can’t take it.

          So when you see me walkin’,
          Won’t you notice that proud look in my eyes.
          Find more similar lyrics on http://mp3lyrics.com/CN35My feet are on the ground,
          And my soul is searchin’ for the sky.

          ‘Cause I want to be happy and free,
          Livin’ and loving for me.
          I want to be happy and free,
          Livin’ and lovin’ for me.
          Just like a natural man (just like a natural man).
          A natural man (just like a natural man).
          Just like a natural man (just like a natural man).

          My feet are on the ground (just like a natural man).
          My soul is searchin’ for the sky (just like a natural man).
          Like a natural man (just like a natural man).
          No more, “Yes, sir” (just like a natural man).
          No more, “Yes, ma’am” (just like a natural man).
          Hah! ‘Cause I’m a natural man (just like a natural man).
          I’m a natural…”

          (If I manage to get the conference call up and running again this year for real…I think I may play this song on it from time to time…I LOVE MUSIC and song lyrics…Great Music & Lyrics uplift the SOUL…HEAL…TRANSFORM)

          I hope you get a chance to take these many vacations more and more often Monica. You deserve every second.

          Keep Shining!

  10. Just wanted to let everyone know that the article is back up, and the trolls are rolling in. Had a new one today. I may just shut off and block all comments on it so that it will be out there for EVERYONE to see, and there will be absolutely no way for them to get it taken down. This cracks me up. What then, will their poor souls do, when they realize they really don’t have control over this article? Or me? Or the victims who have chosen to speak out.

    *Flipping them the bird from afar*

      • I’m happy for the support. It’s hilarious how the trolls try to argue the minor details to distract from the main topic…and I just pointed out that Susan, as of yet, has yet to argue that Bill W. was not a necromancer who wrote the 12 Steps with the help of a ouija board. LMAO! All I hear now from her is blah, blah, blah blah blah.

        • i did not know about him useing a ouija board can you send me a link around that please .
          So,i was makeing fun of when i posted its halloween so i expect to bump onto them more often.but maby i will then LOL

        • Susan is a nutty troll also known as Clara and other handles. She has been banned from all of the Anti AA websites. She hates it.

          That is true how they battle all the small or totally off topic issues than to deal with the truth staring them in the face.

  11. I have been revisiting my writings from last year…WOW! I was just reading the first page of the web site I threw up last year…oh how every, very, very emotionally distraught I was….

    I pray that it serves as a message in a bottle to some poor soul out there suffering and being emotionally tortured by AA people as I was. Here’s a lil taste of pain:

    People having power over other people corrupts people. I feel this is true. I am now very thankful that she finally chose to reveal her true nature, however. I was basically trying to fight my own ongoing inner questions and perceptions of The Program, because she spent a long time building up a dependent relationship between us and I really felt as if I needed her. It was very sick and not something that one adult would intentionally do to another adult unless she or he were very perverted and ill. I feel that AA gives people a faux sense of power and authority over other people. It is unearned. It is misplaced. It is wrong and what’s more is that it is very, very dangerous.

    From the start I witnessed the harsh ways in which AA’s with more time treated those with less time…or those who began to struggle or relapse. If someone who was a regular shared at a table that he or she was struggling or isolating; what do you think the AA member got? In the “normal world” a struggling, upset, troubled or depressed person would get help, empathy and support. AA’s would call this “pity” and they will have none of it. AA’s believe in what they call “tough love.” And they “love” to “love” you, Baby! In the beginning they recite, “We’re going to love you until you learn to love yourself!” It’s just a saying…(what’s more it’s a lie!) It means less than nothing coming from an AA member. When a person falters in AA, they get pounced upon, verbally and emoitionally abused. AA is a haven for Adult Bullying in action. AA’s can be very sadistic and many arrogantly have come to believe that their abuse is somehow helpful, healing or at least deserved. Hurting hurt people makes them feel powerfully righteous and important. It’s as sick as I’ve ever, ever seen. If you or a loved one want to be treated with real compassion and care, do not dare step into a 12 step program unless you just like being stepped on. I hated it!

    I was instructed by my sponsor and her sponsor, my so-called grand sponsor to tell her EVERYTHING I thought and did. When I failed to do this she said that I was “lying by omission.” So, I slowly over time began confiding all of my thoughts and actions in her. I was instructed to cut off or greatly limit my relationship with my family and especially my own mother. This was a particular sore point for me because my mother and me have been the best of friends for years. In trying to please them I greatly limited my visits with my mother and talks on the phone. This also forced me to limit my contact with my aunt who was also very close to my mother and to me. It was awful. I found myself in the strange position of trying desperately to please my sponsor(s) while at the same time trying not to break my mother’s heart.

    Naturally during all of this I was being instructed and indoctrinated into AA in their usual fashion. I was treated like a retarded child even though I have grown children and several advanced degrees. It was demoralizing and humiliating. Of course they said that whatever awful emotion I was experiencing was…. READ MORE: http://illbefree1.wix.com/illbefree#!illbefreeordie/czsb

    • ill b free,
      i really identify with that post, they abuse there power, abuse of power.
      i cut ties with my father…and when i did he contacted a real illness, cancer. my sister got in touch with me, and i got back in contact with him…they did all they could to stop that.im glad i didnt, becuase my relationship with my dad has got better, and he also helped me get away from AA.

  12. Hi all. I just wanted to let you know that I blocked comments today. It has nothing to do with anything the trolls have said, rather, to let them know they don’t have power over anyone else, anymore. I am doing this for all of the women of AA who have ever been a victim. The duct tape over their mouths comes off now. The trolls, predators, and World Service/Board (of AA & NA) can see what it feels like to not have any control now.

    I don’t know how many of us are connecting in this forum or other forums, but if someone could give me a run down of websites/FB pages/twitter pages and anywhere else I can join hands with you guys to expose this crap, please send me an email at AWeinacht77@gmail.com. I have a few ideas, and would especially like to hear from any film makers who are currently working on projects, or wanting to work on one. Shit is about to get real for these predators, and I want to make sure that it happens.

  13. Last night I came across: An Open Letter to the Anti-AA Movement…

    WOW! I think we should all read it and take the time to give him a thoughtful response as his points are well delivered and comprehensive. He and other interested parties need to hear the Passion and Purpose behind WHY we do what we do and WE WILL CONTINUE TO DO IT!

    I did my best to respond…but as we all know there are just so, so many, many layers to the pernicious AA beast. It is not about just one issue…or two…or even three…

    It is a multi-headed beast of massive and monolithic proportions; but we have to try. And Steve honestly makes some good points… My response is awaiting moderation on his site, but I have already posted it on my blog:

    My Response to Steve Slate’s Powerful Open Letter to the Anti-AA Movement→
    by illbefree1

    Thank you, Steven Slate. Yours is a POWERFUL and profound article/ “Open Letter”! (I encourage everyone to read it.)

    You have helped to clarify and articulate an aspect of a perspective that has been forming within me for almost the entire year since I left AA. Alcoholics Anonymous and it’s forceful shoving of “powerlessness” and disease down the dry or wet throats of those who stumble into the sticky 12-step web is certainly a major problem with AA—but not the only one by far.

    Why No Give People Choices if They Feel They Need Them to Be Free of the DANGERS of AA?

    I feel that many of us Anti-AA Movement supporters offer alternatives to AA (12 step) primarily because many have been convinced that people with substance use or over use challenges need “something”? It’s akin to some pacification to take AA’s place for those convinced that they need external “help”. Even that is a choice. If people want or need choices why…. READ MORE:

    • Thanks Illbefree. I have many problems with Steve Slates article. I do not have time to go over it all, but I will mention a few things. First off Steve says anyone stating they offer non 12 step treatment is full of it because that means you are supporting the disease theory. I disagree. Addiction does exist. People become physically dependent on alcohol, heroin and pills. Some people do need help to get off pills, heroin and severe alcohol dependence. Some need medical supervision. It seems Steve is a bit confused on what an incurable disease is compared to treating a condition. I support people get professional help if they feel they need help by a non 12 step professional and one that does not support the disease theory. They are out there. It is true that it is the medical field that has help AA proliferate. But AA is not as popular among professionals as they once were.

      In fact I talked to a long time AA member PR person in Florida. He told me that he consistently gets negative responses from doctors he tries to get to push AA.

      Then Steve makes fun of suggesting nutrition and vitamins. Really Steve? Do you not realize that an alcoholics rob their body of many important nutrients? If one is trying to quit drinking or drink moderately, that being healthier can dramatically help people in or out of recovery.

      Steve trying to say that AA is just like EBT I think it a load of bull. That is AA propaganda trying to legitimize themselves. AA is NOT considered evidenced based treatment, SMART Recovery is considered evidenced based treatment. This is a valid alternative to 12 step meetings. They do not tell you to pray to a doornob or that you ore an addict for life-or an addict at all, or that you need meetings for life.

        • Steve Slate-
          “The 12-step/recovery movement has it’s detractors – the anti-12-step movement – and accordingly, this movement has its own detractors. These devout 12-steppers say that we just want to bash AA and other 12-step programs. I’m sorry to say it, but in regard to many in the anti-12-step movement, they might have a point. If you detest the 12-step recovery movement, but you recommend replacing it with similar things minus the 12-step label and buzzwords, then your criticisms must be questioned. Is it just personal, or are you really trying to fight against the counterproductive ideas of the recovery culture? Figure it out.”

          Steve- We have figured it out, looks like you have not been taking proper notes and sooo much has gone over your head about the multi- faceted anti- AA movement. Thank God for the anti AA websites and the dedication of many who are exposing AA for the complete dangerous Sham that it is.

      • Thanks AntiD… You def brought up some key points. yes, it’s a “condition” not a disease and many people do need professional help with it…

        Again, why not give people ALL the options?

        I hope Steve rethinks that. We are not saying that people do not need help…

        We are saying that AA and NA just ain’t it and people deserve to KNOW!

    • in my first 11 days in AA i was told to stop drink,weed,and tablets.over night all at once.
      i did this, i went into shock,great physical pain,distorted vision,nighmares..
      they told me to pray…
      i did i was on my knees begging for god to help..
      the pain became so severe i ignored there telling me the doctor and counsellors couldnt help me only they could only there way worked, and how my doctor was sick..and begged the doctor for help, he gave me morphine based pills..becuase thats what i needed for the pain was so bad. My shoulders were like granite..stress i went into AA with acute stress and chronic depression..PTSD
      but i took so many of them im lucky i didnt overdose…i ended up going back on weed and drinking..
      i was shouted at for it on returning to AA, Then sponsor and other women stood wagging finger shouting “Shes no Fu***g good her ” i was then shunned by most.

  14. I have now got Television. It’s been such a long time since i had one.
    And on the UK news this week
    there was something about AA.
    i had just came in from work and missed
    some of the story it was half way through.
    There was a lady, she was in a hospital getting blood taken, as
    the interview was being held. it said she had been drinking, and vomiting but kept
    drinking..she was saying this to the camera, she said its not normal is it to do that .

    then the news person spoke saying that doctors are warning people against
    quitting cold. that they should be tapering off and under care and given tablets to help them come off..it then said the lady had relapsed after trying to quit cold with no tablets and without tapering off, and had drank again while attending her regular AA meetings.

  15. I am shocked by what you are saying about Steven Slate…Ill take a look. I could see it was very long and Im tired of reading on the computer.


    These are the anti AA sites. Here Leaving AA, http://www.nadaytona.org, http://www.stinkin-thinkin.com, http://www.orange-papers.org, www,expaa.org, lets see go t the right on my home page of this blog and stop13stepinaa and se the blogroll, also on the stinkin-thinkin and look at her blog roll. there are about 10 0r more anti AA sites.

  16. What i often heard in AA were people bashing anyone who isn’t AA.
    and anyone who said they would go it alone without them.
    So are AA haters of anyone who isn’t AA?

  17. For 12 yr I had to listen to them pulling down normal people,and those who relapsed, those who left those who drink and have never been , those who try to do it alone, and i also heard them pull down
    things like the methadone programme in turning point, i often used turning point Pre AA and dureing my time in AA. i have nothing critical to say of them..apart from they have AA people working for them at times..
    i also had to listen to them pull down those attending AA who HADNT GOT IT.
    one of those men killed himself at 20 yr sober in AA.
    Then i had to listen to them pull him down for takeing his own life.

  18. This article was absolutely spot on, but I was thinking over the weekend about a friend I knew for a long time in AA, she was in long term treatment with me and met and married a man in AA (as I did). She went on to be quite successful, they had two kids, she did all the right AA stuff then within about a week’s period of time some years ago she was diagnosed with cancer and her husband left her. After that she drank again, and beyond her former husband being an ass her family did the “tough love” and basically disowned her for drinking again. She ended up in the long term treatment center once again that we had met in, the asshole got the kids, I later saw him with some 20 something newcomer at a meeting acting like a damned teenaged boy at the home coming dance, but he’s the better parent of course because SHE drank.

    I think what made me most sick out of all that was that her parents and siblings emotionally deserted her, threw her out of their lives like so much trash, because that’s what 12 step says to do. I don’t know where my friend is now. I hope she’s ok and has gotten past this crap. I hope she’s done it without AA because they won’t let her outlive this crap or ever let her think well of herself after this, that’s not how it works.

    • BCM- OMFG ……WOW…..this is exactly why I hate AA today!!!!

      Would she talk to me? That is just horrible. SHe needs to know we are here. SHe needs to know she was not WRONG!!!!!!!!!

      PLease..can you try and find her…..


      This is really , really sad.

      There is so much to be done.

      • Honestly, I’ve been trying to find her for quite a while, I have even found her relatives FB pages and scoured their “friends” lists for her. I am hoping she is ok and just remarried and got a last name change or something and turned out well. But I have not run across her in a couple of years and her phone and email that I had are no longer active.

        I hope she’s off the treatment roller coaster. I hope her family came back around 🙁 I do look for her every now and then still through the internet and people who know her.

    • I have known people who insisted their pre-teen had an “alcoholic personality,” even though he had never touched a drop. Guess what happened to him in his teen years?

      • already gone- They are brainwashed idiots. I was once one of these fools too !!!!I said horrible lies to my first son that he is still working through because I was in AA and I told him he might be an alcoholic if he did certain things. blah blah blah kinda stuff…( now I was fed this garbage by other steppers and therapists!!!)

        I was brainwashed about this crap. We know better now. His mom is sane now..thank GOD. He knows about Smart recovery and Moderation Management and goes to both on occasion. I have interviewed him for the film and he really tells it like it is and how my AA beliefs really created binge drinking. I have already said I’m sorry so many times, and he forgives me….but it makes me so fucking mad I ever said such shit to him!!! I have cried many tears with him and gotten so angry about the past….We must get the word out.

        I interviewed people on the street today and asked them what AA was, was it a government agency and were their professionals in charge?

        I was shocked by their answers. So many think there are professionals in charge, even some young people who have attended meetings with loved ones.

        It’s really bad how deep AA has gotten into our Medical , entertainment, Therapeutic communities. Its going to take alot of work to change it. But I am confident this movement is only begin to build steam. Like the Gay rights movement…..move over….we are next!!!!!!!!

        • They tried that as my son grew up. They kept asking, “Is he one of us?” They were taken aback when I said, “No.” Why would he be?
          On the other hand, he does tell me that some of the guys kept an eye on him at meetings and actually taught him some good things. There were some that were looking out for me cause I was a single mom and naive. I made clear I was not interested in dating anybody in AA. The problem is, I enjoy a drink now and then, now that i do not believe them. They were wrong. It was ridiculous that I was there. I was brainwashed by the treatment center I went to. Misdiagnosed. He is afraid of me having a drink. So i do not in front of him but he knows I do away from him and is not too freaked about it. He gets it. I have also apologized a lot and he accepts that. But he is still afraid of me having a drink in front of him. Even though i am fine, now that I faced that it was a bunch of Bs. He is fine with me “smoking” and is actually the one that told me that a ton of people in AA do the same. Little by little, I’ll be able to accustom him to the truth. I am so sad the treatment center convinced me I was someone I was not. Wasted years. I was very young.

    • what a fucking asshole. THATS wot i call a pure bastard excuse the french,
      thats one good thing among many good things i could say bout scott my x male sponsor.
      i can say bout my x mALE SPONSOR when his normal wife was ill wi cancer n died that x male sponsor of mine did not deserter her n i love him for that n im sending him a birthaDAY CARD SOON HIS BIRTHDAY soon.
      hE is the only person in aa apart from helen i think anything of.
      i dislike him for somethings but dont hate him.
      and i hope he keeps sober .
      aw well call me an AA hater if thee wants too in janiis joplins words
      call me mean call me evil i been called much worsed names around.
      i dont hate everyone in aa.
      pray i get a new keybored soon, lol
      nite nite work tomorow hope my birthday card to my x sponsor
      BECUASE ITS MENT As such i aint a nasty person. x

  19. Thank you all for sharing your various experiences and thoughts about these ongoing issues on this site and others. The things that Sally, Amber and others have recently shared have really saddened and touched my heart. People should not be HURT for going for help. It is just so WRONG! I think it is important for people to know that this “Anti-AA Movement” (which I do not really like it being called that…but it basically serves the broader purpose I suppose…) :-/

    I don’t think we can all be just lumped into ONE CATEGORY as is being attempted however. Trying to “cookie-cut” me was one of the first things that really went up my tail sideways in that ignorant AA cult. People who did not know me at all smugly acted and talked like they just knew EVERYTHING about me (more than I even knew about myself) all due to reading that BS in the BB of Bill W.’s grand scam.

    You could never disagree with them and none of them ever had an original thought. It got to the point where I really did not have to speak with or ask anyone of them a damned question because I KNEW what they thought and what they would say. All I had to do was take out ye ole BB or 12 n 12… They really are quite zombie-like and very smug and proud of being utterly obtuse and BRAIN DEAD…they think it’s better than dying. I think they are already dead.

    We are REAL PEOPLE! We don’t speak from a script. All so-called Anti-AA Movement people do not think the same way nor are we involved in this for the exact same motivations or inspirations. Some of us were in AA or NA and some of us were never actual members. Some of us were in for decades and some just a couple of years. Some have been sexually preyed upon in some way…or financially taken advantage of.

    Some like myself have had people use them for free professional services, been stalked by a “friend” in the fellowship and had insane, controlling, mentally abusive sponsor and grand-sponsor do all they could to mentally and emotionally break me down and make me hit bottom or DIE!

    Some of us do not drink. Some do. Some of us go to alternative programs. Some do not. What we all have in common is the knowledge that Alcoholics Anonymous and the entire 12-Step racket is harmful to people and it must be changed, replaced or stopped altogether.

    We are all doing this to share our experience because it is cathartic and we just may, probably will…SAVE LIVES!

    I’m glad Mr. Slate expressed his opinions…it gives us another outlet to get on out there, be heard and let someone else out there find this community and get the information and support–even alternatives that they need. I hope people continue to post messages to the so-called “Anti-AA Movement” and that we all take the time to put in our millions of ‘2 cents-worth’ I LOVE IT!

    This is Divine Work.

    Be well everyone…

    • I had one sponsor invite me to her house to do the steps. Instead, she tried to get free interior decorating advice out of me. i had another sponsor drain my brain to try to copy my business. when i refused, she screamed her head off at me. Financial, intellectual, emotional, sexual predation, you name it. Very, very hurtful.

      • And the one who tried to usurp my business, take all my ideas, she stalked me. Went to meetings on Christmas Eve and New Years and yelled at me that I was not there to greet people. I had a child and wanted to spend Christmas eve with him. I received a lovely Christmas day call from her, screaming at me that i did not greet people on Christmas Eve. I figured no one would even be there on Christmas Eve. Greeter? I am supposed to leave my child alone on Christmas Eve for that? These memories still hurt. I am past the anger pretty much. but I do not know how long these painful memories will take to be less painful.

        • already gone! WOW, that is nuts….

          SHall we go to the meeting together… we we can find her and I can rant at her how full of shit she is….just saying. Some of these people actually would do well by being confronted by a serious old- timer who left and does not give a shit or does not back down when they come on with their crap. Feed them their own crap back in their face.

          This will be happening in Los Angeles, Colorado and NYC. I will be even going to the outside of men ‘s stagg meetings looking for men who were financilally scammed by oldtimers. The real fight has only just begun.

          Again Im sorry this happened to you. When my dad died a horrible death, I had a sponsee call me up and yell at me ” how dare I left her go cause I was tired of sponsoring them. With his death I realized I gave too much too AA and its people. They will suck the life out of you. Not all….but certainly some. There were some nice pp I knew but there are more nuts like you and Illbefree have encountered. BTW I think I told her to go fuck herself, don’t ever call me again and HOW DARE SHE!!!

          • I think the hardest part about it was that i was a struggling single mom and she was trying to make money off me. i needed to feed my child, by myself. I was hoping for some emotional support and got some asshole trying to steal my livelihood. I am in northern California. I am still intimidated by them. Wish i were not, but i am. There were some nice people. But the predators look for people who have good qualities, like trust, they can exploit. It has made me more shy than i was to begin with.
            These people try to take advantage of people who are vulnerable. It doesn’t make their “moral” program too believable. And nobody backs up the vulnerable people. I did not belong there, I realize now. I am not a mirror image of Bill Wilson, the creep.


      I KNOW I AM.
      BUT I WILL LIVE N DIE IN IT Rather than try aa na AGAIN.
      thats not rIght there are some 2 or more in aa i think good of
      at times other times i have thoughts of disilike to them but most of the time i recaLL GOOD THOUGHTS OF A FEW IN AA.
      NITE X

      • SALLY….


        You are such a sincere and open person Sally. I love you too and I send Healing, Comfort and Continual Triumph from my Spirit to yours over all of the negativity, pain and doubt that AA has placed in your path. It will only make you more strong, more caring and more HUMAN as you continue take your power and decide to simply keep on BEING YOU!

        I am so glad you made it out of that mess. We need your example! It shows me and other people that they can leave AA and not only “survive” but thrive. I know I desperately needed to see that when I left.

        They had me convinced that some mysterious mask of death over which I had no power or control was looming over me…and that submission to Bill W’s demigods of alcohol would be my only salvation.

        What a load of pig shyt!

        I love how you said:


        Ha ha ha aha a…

        Me too Sally, me too…

        I still have my scars. I am VERY much more a loner than I was prior to AA, but I can easily relate to people and feel quite comfortable around NORMAL people now when I need to interact with them.

        Still, I’d rather be alone in nature…writing songs, listening to music, singing…playing with my baby nephews and neice though.

        At least I do not have to call 5 people per day in the “fellowship” as my grand sponsor required and sit feeling retarded coloring pictures in children’s coloring books as she also required…JUST STUPID SHYT!

        No wonder I kept relapsing and binging… SHEEESH! I have not binged ONCE this entire friggin year Sally… NOT ONCE!

        So, I’m OK…but I’ll get better.


        I send you lots of Love & LIGHT & thank you for being so kind.


        • ill b free,

          that was a good post.
          i do drink and use…but not as out of control as it once was for me.
          i got drunk on monday night. think i posted here that night when i came in. (so if anyone read my monday posts i wouldnt pay too much heed to them.)

          i got drunk on a few beers. that’s the first i have been drunk for a good few weeks.

          There was a time i got drunk every 4 day’s,every week,every 2 week’s. And it was a lot more than a few beers, and stronger than beers., whiseky,vodka,rum…speed,lsd.pills,weed…and doing all of those or most in one day..

          Im A HARM REDUCTION person,though i have only been to there web site twice since i last left AA over a year ago…i would have liked to have kept going to harm reduction, but i couldnt handle the hatred comming from the AA who were also there , don’t know why AA were there.

          The last time i left (i tryed to leave AA before..i was out near 2 yr but went back…in my time out…i regurally visited Harm reduction web site i used the name…midnite rider while there i think or was it screaming guitars are sound…and it helped me, i was out for near 2 year then but as best i can recall i didn’t drink or got drunk once…

          it’s my day off work today,so getting on with my decorating at home.
          anway thanks for your posts and your prayers…

    • Exactly Illbefree. We are not on some cookie cutter script. Steve is a good example. He is not pro disease theory or pro AA that I am aware of. He writes what he feel is important to share.

      I was just very disappointed that knowing how much Steve does know, that he seemed to miss so many of the important points that have been made by so many that are anti AA.

      One thing that bugs me is the notion that ” AA bashing” is a bad thing by some! What the hell is wrong with bashing AA? It is well deserved! I do not hear that term used for any other org. Do you ever hear people say ” oh you are just Catholic Church bashing”?
      I think there has been so much AA bashing that 12 steppers like to use the expression as way to minimize the negative statements people are making.

      I think the organization of AA is evil. They deserve all the negative press that they can get. Their stranglehold on the press is starting to crumple.

      Thanks to all who help expose AA and NA for what they really are in everyone’s very own unique way.

      • AntiD… I sincerely consider you a friend and someone who has been there for me. I treasure our connection. Last year you reached out your hand and actually connected with me when I came from AA bleeding from the very Soul. I was a stranger… but you actually cared. That meant and means so much to me. No “love-bombing”…no BS… You saw a human being in pain and you cared! If only this world had more people like that in it!

        I’m glad you take people like Steve to task and hold them accountable for what you very well expect them to know. You keep ‘em honest! You are one of the most intelligent, thoughtful and caring people I know. You and Massive actually hired me to do real work for you like a friggin NORMAL ass person. You both trusted me to do it when my sponsors had basically made me feel that I was too SICK and diseased to be good enough to do anything but go work at Burger King as they tried to force me to do. Do either of you know how truly VALIDATING that was for me at a time when I so needed it? I have worked for years as a professional and to earn my education. They used to just spit on it, disdain it and tell me it made me more susceptible to “thinking AND death”… Can you believe that? Sure, you can, eh? 😉

        I fully understand and appreciate your point of view and respect where you are coming from on the issues and topics we all discuss. You are a Wise and Compassionate VOICE of reason out here and the information you provide via http://www.NADaytona.org is vital. I LOVE the passion you bring to all online discourse. Please!

        Alcohol dependence is a “condition” and many people do need help/treatment dealing with it. If I continued on as I was doing back in the day, I may have ended up being one of them–HELL! Who knows? I may still end up needing some extra help. I don’t know. I’m just living my dag on life…and appreciating it more than ever after escape that rabid-monkey-zombie-factory, Alcoholics Anonymous!


        Awww… Does that sound like I am “bashing AA”? WTF? They bashed me and tried to take my life. You are right. Any organization or sect of people that causes the harm that AA causes should be bashed in the head like a slaughter-pig. Actually the pigs deserve better. They aren’t hurting anyone…AA is! Bashing AA, INDEED! (I was so pissed when Katie said, “We don’t want to bash AA…” on her show. Why did she even have to say that? Is telling the Truth now tantamount to phuckin “bashing”???

        Anyway… let me not get started! 😀

        Thank you AntiD… You and Massive have helped me SO MUCH… I have not the words to say.

        I am thinking about trying to get that CALL off the ground again this year if there is interest. I remember you being one of the people who actually called in. You even spoke to my son.

        YOU ROCK AntiD!

        Keep Tellin ‘Em What For Sister!

        • Awwww- you made me laugh….. then you made me tear up!

          I loved the Katie Couric interview- with the exception of the ” AA bashing” comment. Instead of people being defensive over AA bashing, I want to embrace it! No one should feel bad for expressing their feelings in regard to AA or NA.

          You know when told me about your advanced education and read your awesome writing skills, it was hard to imagine anyone being negative about your great achievements. How could AA sponsors minimize what you obviously are gifted at? I feel so bad and mad at what they put you through. Sponsorship has proved to very damaging.

          Thanks again my friend for all of your input!

      • Massive…

        You are my HERO! If you had not left AA and built this site and infused this powerful community of survivors…I do not know WHAT I would have done last year. I was in so much pain and no one I knew could understand. It was either “the fellowship” or NOTHING. Then came YOU and all the awesome folks I have connected with as a result of this community.

        Jaroslava Mendez is my friend. I love her. I communicate with her as often as I can. I WISH I could do more to help Karla FINALLY get JUSTICE, but I know it’s coming.

        I just do not have words to express how much you have all helped me…and how much I want to be that same kind of help (in my own kind of I’llBeFreeorDIE way  ) to others…

        Remember that time we spoke after I had been on this sugar-free month and then I rewarded myself by drinking a bottle of chocolate wine? Remember?

        I was SO sick the next day. I did not get “drunk” off the wine, but I felt like pure D hell the next day. I started right in with the beating myself up as I was conditioned to do in AA. It was ridiculous! I was convinced that perhaps my ol crazy ex-sponsor was right after all:

        I was a powerless, death-bound drunk! I had no defense over the next drink… Look at me! Just drankin all that chocolate wine and then waking up sick… I had my foot squarely up my own arse….The mental anguish was what was really making me sick. I felt guilty, stupid, crazy…

        Then either I called you or you called me… And we were talking about other things. I mentioned my chocoholic-experience to you. Now, I know this seems so simple, but for me still reeling from the AA indoctrination, I just could not see it on my own at that time. You said,

        “Damn Girl, it’s probably all that SUGAR making you sick! CHOCOLATE WINE! Was it good?”

        Bah ha ah aha hh ahaha hha hAAAAAAA


        Cause I did not feel “hung-over” or anything. I just felt DREADFULLY nasty and sick. Cause I had gone off all sugar for a month and then foolishly celebrated with a bottle of chocolate friggin SUGAR wine…

        Wouldn’t that make anybody feel icky?

        I was so THANKFUL for you in that moment and in so many others.

        I always smile when I recall that. 😀

        I appreciate you and AntiD so much. I really don’t think y’all even know.

        THANK YOU!

        I really want to have lunch out there on that bench one day… And I cannot wait to see your finished film. I think I finally have gotten over my intimidation and would be happy to add my story in some way if you still want me to…

        You let me know.

        YOU ROCK!

  20. I went out to the pub monday after my work,i work till 9 pm.When i woke up Tuesday morning. i didnt have any bad thoughts about
    haveing been drunk monday.I just got up had a coffee got dressed went to
    do dome shopping went to work just got on with my day as useual.
    and i enjoyed my night out

  21. One of my X partner’s used to tell me i should not tell anyone about him hitting me.
    just take the kicks and punches but keep your mouth shut.And that without him i would not survive.

    Since i was a little child, those that have done me wrong have told me to keep my mouth shut…

    A sentance of death,or more harm on me, seems to be predicted from those that have told me to keep my mouth shut….

    • I send you much Love & Light from my Heart and Soul. Your Gift of Honesty is helping so many people out here who do not yet have the courage to be as forthcoming as you are. Honesty is EMPOWERING for the Giver and the Receiver…

      AA lies. It is wicked.

      I for one felt a HUGE burst of EMPOWERMENT as I watched Monica on national TV just come out and tell the world her story. I was like, “Now that’s BALLS!” She was in AA for 35 years and she just has no fear of them at all. I marveled at her Honesty, Courage and Tenacity…and I am less fearful every day since last year when I left. Her Example has a lot to do with that; VERY EMPOWERING!

      So, I encourage you and everyone to keep telling your Truth and finding the Path that leads you to Peace, Well-being, Joy and Fulfillment…or your own or with help if and/or when you may need it. We are all still following and finding Our Path in some sense I think. My great weakness and strength is in being an “experimenter”…though much less so in my older years.

      One of the reasons I ventured into AA was out of the same curiosity that attracted me to experiment with LSD once in my early 20’s. (LSD was an absolutely horrible experience for me personally though some folks enjoy it; like Bill W. by the way that used it for 5 years long after founding AA. Yeah…maybe playing with his Ouija-board, his penis in newcomers and tripping on LSD is what made him the prophet god of the AA zombies. Look at this: http://youtu.be/XeO2BOdmkEg )

      AA was my last “experiment”. It was the worst “trip” ever. I choose not to go into anymore dark places at this late stage of my career…but it’s my Choice and not anything anyone is forcing on me. It is just a natural progression for me as a Mother of now grown children and a Practitioner who intends to help people dealing with challenging life issues as I have had to deal with. In grad school one of my favorite professors dubbed me, The Wounded Healer. I really did not like that title at the time; I found it rather diminutive, but I am beginning to grow into it. 

      I look forward to finding a gifted holistic counselor in the next few months to work with me as I continue to do my work. (The most effective counselors are usually always in some form of counseling or self-healing practice themselves.) I feel that everyone can benefit from counseling or coaching in some ways…but I know I am biased in this regard. As a survivor of childhood molestation and rape, some modicum of “hurt” will always be a part of me; as an Empowered Adult, however, I Choose that HEALING will also be a part of me. I must always just be Mindful…

      AA monkey-zombies tried to kill that inner Truth within me. I will never forget it and I will do all I can to expose them for the rest of my personal and professional life. They f-ed with the wrong “pigeon” here…they just do not know it yet.

      I agonized and personally deliberated over my choice to continue to drink a lil beer and/or wine. I had trouble distinguishing between what I wanted to do just because I wanted to do it and just being defiant against AA. It was a very difficult Decision for me. It took a bit to get AA out of my head. Even when I did not drink I had to combat the voice of my witch-sponsors calling me just a “dry-drunk” in my head. See? With them you are damned any way you damned slice it. Dealing with them was like putting my brain thru a blender. I am still quite disappointed with myself for even exposing myself to all of that. I feel I should have known better! (Still, I needed to learn what I have learned…for myself and countless others.)

      I recently shared with a dear friend what I survived regarding AA. I also told her that while I avoid hard liquor, I do drink beer and even wine less often. She said, “I’m confused… Why would you use or drink *anything* considering your history and what you have been through?”

      I said, “I know, right?”

      Basically, choosing to drink a lil beer or wine is in some way empowering for me because I am able to do it without losing my dog-damned mind or having one drink lead to 100 then to 1000 and on to death, institutionalization or imprisonment. I do it simply because I fn can. And I do know that may sound quite immature or silly. I don’t know… I had to make a Choice, rather than allow one to be made for me. I can always choose again though. I’m cool with that.

      I avoid “drunkenness” because I did learn in AA about a phenomenon called “black-out” which I previously thought was basically the same as “pass-out.” They are two totally different things altogether! I discovered what those patches of TIME that I could not sometimes account for yet my friends would tell me stories of a “me” I did not remember or recognize doing and/or saying all kinds of uncharacteristic shyt. This person vocally sounds like me. She physically looks like me. Sometimes she is kind of “cool” even “fun” I have heard…but some time she is a crazy ass bitch from all foul hell on a mission to destroy my future. She is what happens when I dink liquor into drunkenness which potentially leads to a BLACKOUT.

      That I did learn.

      So, it is a wonder that I dare even have a beer…really. I may continue. I may choose to stop. If I ever note a problem developing and I have told my closest friends to call me on it if they see any concerning behavior forming. They love me. I trust them. So, I feel OK around it now.

      Am I in denial? I do not know what that in this contexts besides some more AA bullshit? I am a grown ass woman, making choices and living my life as I choose. I dig it. As long as I dig it and I am not harming myself or anyone else I will keep doing it. That’s all I know.

      I was able to stop drinking in SMART. I was able to stop drinking out of SMART. I could have continued being abstinent if I chose to. I even experimented with the use of medicinal THC as way to not drink. I think the use of medicinal THC is very useful and effective by the way and I would advise trying it for some people. I cannot use a lot of THC because I am one of those people that THC tends to make a bit “panicky” or “paranoid”—unfortunately. But there is research which shows that it is beneficial to some people in helping them to taper off alcohol use if they choose to. Everyone is different.

      In my younger “experimenter” years I tried some un-intrusive stuff once or twice. The only thing I truly enjoyed was “shrooms”. (I never dug pharmaceutical stuff…but if it came from nature I usually saw it as a kind of Gift from God…LOL) Blessedly, I never became addicted to or dependent upon anything. If not for my Choice to be a Healer, I might choose to drink more, but I do not think so because of the physical cumulative effects after we reach a certain age of consistent use. After all, hard-liquor is really not a “health-drink”…Yes, I do realize that. And honestly, I do not like to wake up in the morning feeling “icky”…unwell…grey…nasty…gritty…deathly as liquor-drinking causes me personally to feel when I do it on a regular basis…or binge. I HATE IT. I am blessed to even be able to stop doing something that I hate so much. There are people who hate it as much as I do, but they cannot stop. I feel that they are precious people and they deserve all help and assistance or treatment they want and or need. They have to Choose it though; it can’t be forced.

      We must all find our own inner Truth…and be True to it. That is the precious insight that I intend to never lose sight of again. When I need help, I will gladly reach for it and I feel so fortunate to have that option because so many precious people do not.

      Thank you and everyone for sharing, gifting and shining you unique Light.

      PS: Please let me know if you like any of the videos on my site and suggest any other empowering, enlightening or educational ones that may help people leaving AA or NA please: http://illbefree1.wix.com/illbefree#!aa-deprogramming-videos/c2271

      PSS: Wow…I didn’t mean to go on so. Excuse me. Maybe I should have posted this on my blog instead… ??? SORRY…

        • Hey Massive:

          Thank you! Hopefully things will keep developing financially for me and I will be in a position to compensate an alternative healing practitioner. I am doing so much better than I was last year (not saying much)…but still just enough to cover basics.

          Still a struggle, but at least I don’t have those witches of AA at my heals trying to push me into being a dishwasher…not that I have any lack of respect for those hardworking folks…

          I’m always on the GRIND—

          I will contact her when I can though. I appreciate the info.


          • well i tryed the videos from ill b free but not sure
            what happened. when i try to start them loud classical music starts playing and i cant hear them
            i have watched a few those videos before, but there are others i would like to see.
            i shall try again tomorrow.

          • I got your message. I went and got a massage after a log day of editing the film as we go along. I was pooped. I watched NASHVILLE on ABC, ANOTHER show with a huge AA thread line.

            fyi I went to a meeting and handed out my DUI pamphlet. Sheeet…that was cool …the meeting was horrid to sit through but handing it out right in the the meeting was kick ass.

            • Massive,
              though your post wasn’t for me, don’t think it was,never the less,
              good for you i couldnt go in there,i can barely handle bumping into them on the street. i’m ok with a few of them,but even feel uneasy around the ones i once cared about.
              hope the flyers help.
              i’m back at work tonight,and friday,then i have a holiday, a week off. So traveling to Scotland to my dads Saturday.
              take care everyone.

              • sally- sorry …yea I was responding to illbefree, she called me. Im not made of steel…I hated the vibe…its horrible.

                There was a man who shared about wanting to blow his brains out, that AA had not worked for over 10 years. He was so sad. He said the GOD thing , he just didn’t get. He wanted to be a part of but he didn’t get it. WOW….I thought…he is why I am here tonight … he got up, I knew he would and he headed for the back of the room. I got up and followed him to the back of the room where he got a cup of coffee,. I asked him : Can I talk to you” …he said “sure”

                We walked outside of that scum bag meeting hall and I looked him in the eyes and said ” You are not alone” You are right. They are wrong as I pointed to the Meeting room. I said ” do you know how many people leave here and kill themselves? But some get out and find the blogs and dont do it. They realized AA is the failure not YOU!!! I said.
                I held my DUI pamphlet in my hand so he could see the other 7 options!!!!!.
                I asked him ” do you know there are other options besides AA…he say no…no I ‘ve tried every rehab they haven’t worked lI said ” no no no , I mean free programs Like SMART RECOVERY, MODERATION , HARM REDUCTION, SOS ?”

                No….I have never heard of anything else he said …I was standing looking him in the eyes and saying PLease go somehwere else , Just go to A SMART MEETING, SOS and go on the internet, google alternatives to AA… I told him to call me if he wanted. That he was not crazy, he was not broken , he was not wrong ….he…thanked me, we shook hands and I left. I don’t know if he wont kill himself, but I have a feeling he went home and he looked up on the internet and is right now maybe reading orange papers, or even here.

                If you are reading this….WELCOME!!!! If not, I made an effort, …I know its great to blog and we all tell storeis , our own and others of what happened to us, but to go into the gates of Hell ” AA meetings” and tell them directly to get the hell out of there, That their 1 st amendment rights are being broken and that they are not broken and that there are Other options that are not religious out there. Was pretty fucking awesome and draining all wrapped up into one big ball.

                • WOW!

                  That is so POWERFUL that you connected with that man Massive. See, that is what it is all about…SAVING LIVES…

                  I bet he will look into those options because he was not aware he had any other options (thanks to A-Hate).

                  Letting people know that they are NOT alone & that AA is LIES and is nothing but a bunch of made up BS & Old Oxford Group Religion w/ a lil LSD, sexual perversion and Ouija mixed in is LIFE SAVING!

                  Desperate, hurting people have latched on to AA because they had nothing else. Perhaps it served its purpose I guess back in the 30’s and 40’s…but it is way passed any good it could ever do now.

                  It is HURTING more than HELPING… Women and children have been preyed upon sexually and even killed. I still can’t believe thsi has been allowed to go on for so long. I was thinking about contacting the APA until I recently read that they have deemed “Pedophilia” to be a recognized Sexual Orientation! Can you believe THAT shyt?! Look: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/31/pedophilia-sexual-orientation_n_4183482.html

                  Why don’t they add bestiality too…friggin demons!

                  Anyway… that I am still attempting to process. I just found out.

                  THANK YOU for visiting my web site and I am so psyched you like the videos….

                  I hope that someone finds them useful and it helps get the AA bs dislodged from their brain… I am still not 100% certain they are out of my head, but I feel way CLEANER…


                  PS: I am SO excited about Marianne Williamson running for Congress. I support her 100%. She is one of my Lifetime All-time HEROES for damned sure…

                  I just got off the phone w/ someone in this region talking about what we could do here.

                  Now, I do not think it would help her campaign to affiliate with the so-called “anti-AA Movement” per say, but if we of like minds did support her, she is the kind of person to have in government who would support agendas that would free people from having their constitutional right violated, she is a champion of women and children…

                  I mean, she is just the REAL DEAL…

                  Let me know what your thoughts are regarding her run for Congress. She is running as an Independent (but she is a Dem if that matters at all to you. I think both parties SUCK and I do not profess any membership to any political party; never have: never will…I just VOTE for who makes sense to me.)

                  If people in California get groups of at least 25 people together she will come and speak. How AWESOME is that???? I know that you already do so much and do not need anything else on your plate…so even if you do not have any time for this…please let people know in Cali that they have NEW OPTIONS as far as the next VOTE for Congress. That’s important and will definitely help… I think it will ultimately help our cause to change things that are happening as far as AA to get someone like her in there too by the way…

                  I am just SO excited about her running.

                  Take a look:

                  It’s definitely going to be an uphill battle for her…I think it’s a FIGHT just right to win with all the BS going on…but anything worth doing always is. I know you know that better than most folks!

                  And you are saving lives with this work you are doing. I know you made a POWERFUL and POSITIVE impact on that man. Bless Your Dear Soul… It is Sacred, Divine Work…


                  • CORRECTION: I had read that about the APA classifying “pedophilia” as a sexual orientation on a different website via my phone. When I tried to find it via computer I saw the Huffington link and assumed it said the same thing. DUH! The APA has corrected the error. THANK GOD! Cause that was like from another galaxy altogether. But AA has me so used to hearing blatantly INSANE & HEINOUS crap that I just do not know WHAT to expect next some times>>>

                    The APA issued a statement to the press on Thursday, saying it had acted in “error,” and clarifying that the only difference in how pedophilia is referred to from the last DSM is that “the disorder name was changed from ‘pedophilia’ to ‘pedophilic disorder'” in order to “maintain consistency with the chapter’s other disorder listings.”

                    SEE: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/31/pedophilia-sexual-orientation_n_4183482.html

                    APA Associated Pedophilia With Sexual Orientation but Claims It Was an Error?

                    Did the American Psychiatric Association (APA) change the classification of pedophilia to a “sexual orientation” or did the American Family Association (AFA) make a false accusation to stir up fear among Christians? SEE:


                    • WOW

                      Look how narrow this threatd has become!

                      THAT is so COOL…

                      That’s how they limit the length of the thread and encourage comments on new ones.

                      THANKS AGAIN AMBER for your AWESOME article which sparked this discourse.

                      Enjoy the weekend EVERYONE


            • OOOH NICE!

              A massage had to be nice at the end of a day of film editing.

              I swear, one day I would like to go with you to meetings and do that…I think going with you is the only way I would not be too freaked out…

              I would love to be a fly on the wall when a group of ’em starts reading the flyers you give out.

              There ain’t nothin in the BB to tell them how to handle THAT!


      • thanks for your post.
        i gave up speed acid and shrooms a very long time ago.
        LSD near drove me to jump from a high building…thank god i didnt..i will never touch class A drugs or shrooms again.

        i will have a look at your web page.

        i was a reikie healer some years back. i have my masters degree. Also did all but the last level in counselling…i couldnt afford to do the last level…i dont want to be a counsellor,but doing the courses helped me.

        i no longer practice reikie,only on myself..but .i would give it if someone asked…

        i know blackout’s i had them…one time i got run over by a car
        while in blackout.
        Too much alcohol is as bad as class A drugs for me.

        i have painted my kitchen. Off to my bed now..im glad of your posts, and everyones posts here.

        goodnight ill b free.

        • Hey Sally…

          WOW! Scotland? That sounds wonderful. Shamefully I have never been out of the US. I plan to “one day” though.

          Enjoy Sally and give your Dad and yourself lots of LOVE.

          Wow… We have Reiki in common too. I am Reiki Level 1. I intended to go to 3, but I left the state where I started training. I may pick it up again. I enjoyed it and had a couple of clients–not many at all.

          I didn’t dig doing one on one counseling for people but I was good at it. So, many women have experienced horrible sexual abuse; it bothered me to hear of it consistently everyday… Especially the cases where children were involved.

          I rather like facilitating workshops, running groups, speaking and writing.

          And thanks for telling me about how my site acted up on you. One of the videos was on Autoplay. I adjusted the setting just today.

          You can turn each of the videos off and on and adjust the sound via the control bars at the bottom of each little screen just as on YouTube.

          Take good care of YOU Sally and have a safe trip.


  22. It seems to me that the AA group that I go to collects money from its members, alono dues a private club, anyone who attends there has to give money to the basket everyday and pay alono dues to the club because it is a good cause and that they helped you get sober, but! there is a new thing happening out there, a lot of people are catching on this this scam and they are not attending as much as they used to, a lot of people are going to church and joining fitness centers, and listing to other sorces, and also listing to people like my self,
    telling people that AA is a cult and it does not work, you can stop drinking on your own, you do not need to go to AA.
    AA is like scenitology and witchcraft, and pagan religions, and other cults like johovas witnesses and the mormans what are all money making sex preditors.

    • you know you hit rock bottom when you sit with mostly total losers in every aspect of their life (blame it on drugs) trade drug war stories with greater degree of usage, i took 100mg a day and stole. Yeah, I did 500mg and stole from dying grandma, yeah, I…repeat for an hour. Have people willing to help you with your life when the only thing they accomplished in life is attending meetings everyday and little else. You where a totally helpless person until you met these wise men. Find a responsible, qualified professional and do some one on one, you will be better served

  23. Thanks for bringing this up. And ya know what else Mandy? How hard would it be for anyone at anytime to set up a “fake” AA meeting, collect money and just damned keep it?

    The entire organization is as raggedy as hell with the people at the so-called top only dedicated to making sure that they keep getting money from the Fermented Sugar-Plumb-Fairy for the rest of their lives like good ol Bill W. did till he ended up on his fn deathbed begging for a damned drink!

    It worked the F for him, didn’t it?

    Just look at this guy giving folks advice on how to forge AA meetings for Drug Court:

    “some help for you folks in drug court. You don’t have to go to aa meetings. you can forge every signature on your meetings list as long as you don’t put down a real meeting. the reason is…” READ MORE: http://www.topix.com/forum/city/dunkirk-ny/TK0P9HDOET8F4DEF8

    The Boozer & the Billionaire:
    John D. Rockefeller helped Alcoholics Anonymous founder Bill Wilson-by giving him little money…

    (Though this aricle does some major AA a-kissing…it does divulge some interesting history.)


    Bill W. was able to con a billionaire. Wow! No wonder the average person has no defense againt that first “DON’T THINK”…

    Thanks to sites like this many are waking from the hypnosis…

    • All that bullshit article did was spike my blood pressure. And Cheever only charges $24 for the privilege of reading her home spun horseshit. It looks like Bill was some kind of normal guy that fell into drinking too much one night and then went to Towns Hospital once and then got all better. He went to Rockefeller because of the family connection – nothing more. Without a family connection, no one would even spend time with that loser. Also, the wealthy people in that dinner had plenty of money to give if they thought they were listening to a person that was worthy of their money – it happens all the time. But Wilson wasn’t worthy of shit and to get over his busted ego, he had to rationalize that getting no money was a great thing to have happen. Appealing to a room full of extremely wealthy people for a supposedly worthy cause and getting little to nothing is a failure, plain and simple. They saw right through this blowhard con man and shut him down. They can spin the story anyway they want, but some of the richest men in the world at the time heard his pitch and weren’t buyin it. Business people with thousands of employees were at that dinner. They knew alcohol was a problem with their workers and if they saw something that really made sense, they would be all over it from a worker productivity perspective – they weren’t stupid, you want sober workers. But they listened to Billy blowhard and didn’t see it because he and it were/are bullshit. Wish I could have been there – the food was probably fantastic.

  24. And maybe this guy was joking…maybe not, eh?

    “Start your own AA NA home group in your smoke filled dimly lit basement or garage:
    Provide a smoking facility
    provide spiked coffee,tea,refreshments,word will get around that your meetings possess great healing powers.
    Sell counterfiet aa na t-shirts,books,literature
    sell tobacco products
    Use the proceeds for the pass the basket or the sale of couterfiet products as ameans of proof of income and to pay on fines.
    Sell forged meeting slips.
    Become a sponsor and require your sponsees to pay you a fee of 20.00 a week to be their (clean & sober friend)

    IT WORKS IF YOU WORK IT.LOL” –FTW Apache Junction, AZ


    How mush you want to bet that more of the meetings people go to were set up by ass-holes doing this than anyone thinks? It would be so easy to do. Can’t you see it? Criminals are opportunists and the AA racket create phatt opportunity to exploit people from the gritty ground on up.


    This guy reveals the pattern of th edrug and alcohol court scam very nicely. And this is at the crux of why we have so much working against us trying to fight this. The System does not care that 12 step treatment and AA do not acutually “help” anyone. It is all a revenue stream. Why would they stop it?

    Read this guy’s account:

    “I ended up in drug court because i drank beer while i was on probation. i was on probation for obstruction of justice – nothing drug or alcohol related. i got caught drinking like 3 times over 2 years, and my drinking habit was maybe to drink twice a month or so. this qualified me for drug court, treatment, and even rehab (the 3rd time i was caught). i would estimate cost to the taxpayer of over $100,000 easily (1 day in rehab is about $1000) to treat my horrible addiction to alcohol – a legal drug that other than me being on probation, was legal for me to consume. while i was in drug court, scamt is right, they cherry-pick the people to go or stay in drug court. they make it too hard for someone who is actually addicted to finish – those people get thrown back in jail the first time they relapse. instead the court picks people who only have mild habits (like mine) and therefore are easy to suppress while the person goes through the program. oh and this program is basically nothing except harassment. there is no actual treatment going on. I was unfortunate enough to have a college degree so while everyone else just had to get their ged or a job in fast food, i had to find a job that doesnt exist in dunkirk or go back to school, both of which would have been impossible with all the stupid meetings, appointments, and spontaneous drug tests they made me go to – none of which were negotiable. so i was endlessly berated by leann lazarony and sent to jail on a few occasions.
    All of the counselors and staff involved with the drug court program, of course, pat themselves on their backs and say they are doing a good job because it makes them money or provides job security.
    i will agree with drug court keeping these people out of jail – none of them are violent, most are just party animals who acted irresponsibly one night or something. i think there should be some kind of penalty for being reckless but to send them through drug court or put them in prison for years for possession charges is insane. in my case, for drinking while on probation, i was faced with a 12 month sentence, which i also think was overkill.” rawr Dunkirk, NY

    Crystal clear, huh?

    • No, it’s not crystal clear. I’d like to hear the rest of the story. This sounds like my early recovery. If you have a chance, read my account below – from Spiritgifts.

  25. The most obvious is the self appointed experts. Many have no education, career, life. What they have is addiction and somehow that made them expert in all faucets of life. It usually goes unnoticed until some guy shows up and is going to help run your life and he doesn’t have 2 nickels to rub together and is going to advise you on success…as he pulls away in some nicotine stained windowed 15 year old car with need of a muffler. They all become self professed experts in everything with the only real qualification is the attend NA meetings

    • What an awesome way for people to get a second chance! People who choose a career in substance abuse counseling have to pass a rigorous test and complete many hours of training. The ones i knoe, continue on for masters and doctorate degrees. God is a God of second chances!

      • On this point I have to strongly disagree! That is simply NOT TRUE. Indeed lots of people do train to a very high level (I have a dear friend doing a PHD in addictions therapy for instance) but many, many people get jobs as programme assistants and sober companions and such with no qualification whatsoever. Some addiction therapy is incredibly lacklustre to say the very least.

        I’m all for second chances but as you said elsewhere perhaps those individuals would be better focusing on themselves and not pushing their ‘help’ on others.

        Again, I don’t doubt your sincerity but you are naive in the extreme.

  26. apologize for not reading all of the comments because they began to all have the same pros and cons. However, i wanted to chime in with perhaps a little more peace and my own personal viewpoint.
    I am a 50+ year old woman and i have been in 12-step programs for 28 years – clean and sober, i might add! I recognize and agree with the unsavory types that attend these meetings and i have to remember where i am, and why we are all here. I also attend church regularly, and recognize unsavory types and behaviors there as well. I was a debutante, private school and college educated, but I was, and am still not without faulty behaviors.
    I would never tell anyone that 12-steps are the only way, but it certainly lays a foundation for identifying and surrrnder.
    Throughtout my years in recovery, I have been very vocal in my displeasure of “13-steppers”. I hsve been known to speak to groups of men huddled outside the door, to leave the women alone. I have also had the tragic experience of one of my daughters being molested when she was in high school by a so-called trusted friend in the rooms. She told us she went willingly, but at this point over 10 years ago, I took the blinders off and remembered that these were addicts who probably did some of the same things I did but had no interest in changing.
    Do I stop attending meetings? Did I stop going to church when the priests molested youth? Do I pull my girls out of scouting because of predators? These are personal choices that only I can snswer. Can I sue someone or ask for better legislation? There is an element of danger in every facet of life. My husband, who I met in recovery, told the story of how he came to the meetings with a sawed off shotgun for months, thinking to eventually rob the people. He died two years ago with 25 years clean, the founder of a recovery clubhouse and volunteer and supporter of the homeless c8mmunity.
    I personally retired with a degree in engineering, working with ex-offenders and still attend meetings. When family and friends ask me why i still attend after all these years, i tell them that i can never give up on you, just like i never gave up on me.
    Yes, the answer is to keep the focus on yourself, but to use common sense also. If you don’t like what’s going on in the meetings, start at the group level for change. Peace and blessings – Namaste!

    • @spiritgifts-
      It is great that you have found a way to protect and preserve a way of life you cherish. You have found that in a 12step program. And like those who share in meetings about “a way of life”, behaviors and people they want to change or avoid in order to heal, I come to these forums to share about my experiences and what I want to change and avoid. I like you was a debutante, went to private school and was college educated. I also didn’t stop identifying as Catholic when the priest molestation cases came to light. Like you I made a choice. My choice was to leave AA and the 12 step disease model behind. I also choose to share my negative experiences and in that support others who feel emotionally bereft and depleted by AA. You share a positive experience but you also imply that one should stick with it, start one’s own meeting and take what works and leave the rest and to “keep coming back”, all of which is part of the AA propaganda. You miss the point of this site. It also seems you don’t recognize that your experience is not that of others. Just because you found a way to mitigate the horror of your child being molested by “a trusted friend in the rooms” or tolerate the “element of danger” doesn’t mean others have to adopt your coping mechanisms. You suggest people work for better legislation, assuming that people who don’t go to, like or want AA and 12 step programs aren’t doing just that. In fact if you had given as much time and toleration to the messages here(instead of dismissing them as “the same pros and cons”) you might see that this is a site about peoples feelings. A safe place to share. It is not a pro and con site. No one here wants to “convince” you out of your choice and experience. In fact if anything this is a con site and in as much as you seem to not be interested in others negative experiences with AA/NA or any A you should go back to your meetings and carry on. I personal don’t want to read from you “how I did it wrong” or haven’t adopted the right view or attitude as to remain in AA. I spent 14 heinous years in AA, bought the books, tapes, inspirational doohickeys and I believe to the bottom of my soul that in leaving AA I got it right, it’s working for me and I am happy joyous and free.

      • Spirtgifts

        I agree with Mary. Many of us have many, many years in Aa – if you totted it all up there are hundreds of years of ‘sobriety’ here so we have heard the arguments you make over and over, before we left and after we are gone. This is a site for people who have left.

        I respect your right to do as you choose with your life, but you should respect ours.

        Also, I have a question, if you were aware of molestation going on at your scout group, or at your office, particularly by groups of men colluding together, would you have a ‘quiet word’ or would you call the police? Did you call the police on the man who molested your daughter (I think ‘willingly’ has been understood to be ‘grooming’ in this day and age with respect to sexual abuse in most case)? Did you ask for that man to be thrown out of the meetings?

        I too spent a lot of time in AA speaking up about 13th stepping, warning women, and standing up to men. Didn’t make any difference … because the culture of the organisation was such that my puny efforts made no difference, AA is very invested in the status quo and world service trustees have resigned for AAs passive refusal to do anything about what are systematic abuses in AA.

        I’m not arguing that there are many good hearted and well intentioned members in AA (you seem to be one of them) but there does seem to be some kind of collective delusion that AA is ‘different’ to other organisations with respect to the law. People have tried to change things and the push back has been vitriolic and immense.

        Also AA is not a ‘slice of life’ – it is a concentrated group of individuals with some serious problems protected by anonymity with no safety checks, no oversight and no policies and procedures. Any youth groups I’m involved in have very serious child protection policies, any employer I’ve had is bound by law to deal with sexual harrassment. Not so in AA (although the law still applies).

        Whilst I understand that you felt you were helping by posting your message I confess I found it a little patronising and very naive from your point of view. All of views you describe are thoughts I once shared in AA, but eventually reality prevailed and I left.

        I also don’t really put much store in ‘sober’ – I’ve met many nutjobs in AA with plenty of ‘time’ – I don’t feel it is a particularly useful measure of any kind of recovery that is meaningful.

        it’s interesting that you decided to come to this site and post here, I wonder what your motives were? I mean that sincerely, perhaps you can elaborate?

    • What wonderful thought-out and patient responses to the passive-aggressive, delusional, AA-indoctrinated and intellectually inbred “spiritgifts”. May she wake up now.

      • Thnx for the kudos SPJ-
        For me I had to really reflect on how to ‘awaken’ SPIRITGIFTS. I take as suspect anyone who uses quick and feel good monikers and those who end their didactic expose with: “peace and blessings-Namaste”. So many grifters’ and confidence artists and those who seek to self deceive use words and attitudes of tolerance and peace to deflect the truth of their intent.

        • Ditto Mary, take a look at Laura T on the other thread, took no time at all to get to the real agenda, I rather enjoyed it! 🙂

          I do believe some of these steppers actually believe this stuff, or think they do. I think they are so used to being in an atmosphere where it’s taken as ‘widsom’ that they expect to be met with that wherever they go.

          I think back on some of my conversations now with ‘normies’ when I was in AA and wince. We all sat in meeting saying, ‘those people out there don’t get it’ when in actual fact I think they were just thinking, bugger off you new age weirdo with your psychobabble. In the short time I’ve been ‘out here’ I realise that that ‘normies’ GET IT just fine, which is why they are normies! And so am I, I realise.

          I wonder if she’s saying a few prayers for us. In fact I really hope she does come back and engage in some debate, I’m sincerely happy to have a polite debate about it if she’s willing as I suspect her ‘motives’ aren’t quite what she thought they were as she typed it. Which is no bad thing, we might be able to ‘carry a message’ lol.


          • It would be nice Rebecca to have a polite discourse on it but I doubt she would want to reflect on her commitments and their implications @ 50 something. Being 50 something myself I understand it is an age at which we reflect and change or deflect and carry on. 🙂

    • Why yes, and right there in the middle, where there is the highest probability of structural failure, well, gawd will hold it up for us. I know because I turned it over. Let go and let gawd, I say. Now, if it collapses, it is because the drivers on the bridge just weren’t honest and willing enough to turn their will and lives over to the gawd of midspan. It’s how it works and it works if you work it.

  27. Hey, is exactly 1year my lover came back to me, I’m letting you know how i got my ex back because this Christmas holiday everyone need there love ones around them not just your love ones but your lover, a year ago i was heartbroken and i knew i could not spend the holiday alone that is when i was looking for how i can make my lover come back to me so that we can make things right, to cut the long story short on a faithful day i came across the details i will be dropping on the internet, someone talking about how she got her ex back so i took this details I’m dropping via email: (((ekpentemple at gmail.com)) and i contact him and i told him that i want my lover to come back to me, today I’m with my lover. Thanks you Dr. EKPEN TEMPLE for the help.

  28. Does 13th stepping occur? Of course it does. Is any group of people immune from people preying on other people’s vulnerability? Of course not. But ultimately, who’s responsibility is it? The victim, the perp or the rest of the vulnerable group? AA and NA meeting are filling with people who are trying to find a better life. They are not cops are anybody else’s protector. They obviously did a horrible job of protecting themselves in order to get into those rooms. This writer wanted people just as vulnerable as herself to protect her.

    I have been a member of NA for more than 15 years and I have seen 13th stepping and I have called the perp on it. But I have also seen newcomers run into the arms of other members looking for security and protection when those members are barely able to manage themselves.

    13th stepping is frowned upon and they are shunned, but the groups are run by volunteers and not proffessionals. Everyone in those rooms have proven themselves of incapable of managing their own lives at some point and all are still learning how to do so. As a group we try to make the meetings safe for everyone, but we are not perfect.

    I am sorry for this girl’s experience and maybe more could have been done by the group to prevent or mitigate it. But NA has helped millions of addicts learn to live successful and productive lives and to condemn it like this site and article does, is wrong.

    • Hi Steve,

      Ok ——but this blog is not here to discuss how NA Helped millions. Its here to help those who leave or who want to leave.

      Do you want to talk about the woman who called the NA Hotline and the man who answered it went over to her house and raped her.

      After that the NA Board changed your Service structure. And no longer uses group conscience to decide important things? Which I think is a good thing.

  29. Reflect…

    How much protection would she get in a bar? At a Meetup Group? In a church singles group? In a treatment center?

    All of these places are filled with vulnerable and predator people.

    • There are many negative things about aa also and an informed public is able to make a choice based on all the available evidence positive and negative. Of course you will be bias towards aa, most people are for a variety of reasons. Thinking about crime incidents occurring everywhere yes it does. Placing individuals with the capacity to do harm in an intimate space with potential victims does mot happen everywhere. That is why the risk is increased as there are opportunities for grooming, gaining personal details etc that makes crime perpetration that more difficult. Not to mention the step work may also be triggering for needs not best provided by a non professional quasi religon. Who is to say that this may harm someone not even remotely connected to aa? Already using a risk template I hope to have clarified that it is not just a case of it happens everywhere so really its all right, more a spiritual opportunity to potentially reduce harm. Lastly you have absolutely no way of quantifying the ‘few’ that have been hurt and so far most of the statistics tend to refute this claim, nonetheless it is a pleasant anecdote to think of. Best wishes to you and hoping 2016 is a great year for you and your fellows. Lets hope more people find a recovery path that reflects their needs in the safest evidence based and accountable approaches available.

      Justifying 13th stepping as thought it happens everywhere is frankly disgusting and it is not acceptable just as crime anywhere is not acceptable. It is a hallmark of AA institutional denial that minimization of very apparent abuse is occurring within the rooms of by AA members on AA members. Fact.





      There is no quantification of the unknown number of NA members that it was not successful for. A large majority anecdotally may have suffered after poor advice that they should not take meds for example in relation to mental diagnosis. Nonetheless for you I am glad that you have found a solution. Perhaps use this as an opportunity to build on your sobriety.

      Reply ↓

    • The courts are NOT Ordering any women or driving any women to those places. and they places dont tell the new persons to the groups
      1. WHo you see here and what you hear here…let it stay here.
      2.Yes Predators are in Yoga classes too
      3. but Courts are not ordering sex offenders and violent me there.
      4. None of these other places are anonymous
      5. No one is living by a 1935 text.
      6. No one is going to those places seeking help
      7. no one is going to those places having seen them wrongly depicted on big A list TV shows or big A list Films.

          • Not specifically but then it uses examples of areas that are known to engender the theory that it discusses. Of course thinking outside the box it does not necessarily have to apply to common institutions, or institutions per se. Rather a lens to view how social or cultural elements/ environment supports abuse, what it looks like and the affect it can have on an individual and ultimately being betrayed by the very thing entrusted to support.

            • Lastly the definition of institution;

              An organization founded for a religious, educational, professional, or social purpose:
              an academic institution
              a certificate from a professional institution

              An established official organization having an important role in a society, such as the Church or parliament:

              informal A well-established and familiar person or custom:

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