A Sub Culture of 12 step groups mentality have undermined our society and weakened our integrity. Powerless or empowered?

i am not powerless

I seriously doubt that AA founders really wanted everyone to think they were powerless over everything.

or did they…

This is absurd. Although I know that Tom Powers from All Addicts Anonymous dealt with Sex in a way that he and Bill Wilson , Mr AA disagreed on. Bill W went on to be a massive 13 stepper. (sexual harassment specialist). Its a fact and quotes can be found in Francis Hartigan’s book.

I want to discuss this crazy ideoligy that is about  AA is a  Religion, but that has sadly seeped into our current culture. I know its been deemed “highly religious” already in 25 states in the US, but more from a cultural, social aspect is what I am questioning.

Maybe this is why the Agape church got so big. Maybe this is why “The Secret” sold millions. The people who are still lost but sober are looking for some sort of way to deal with the fact that AA and its punitive philosophy and powerless, negative labeling keeps one’s self esteem low forever.

Unless you see it, acknowledge it and do massive other work to change your core belief system one is stuck in a spinning rat wheel.

It’s unfortunate when I see really smart women come into the rooms nowadays  and cock there heads to the side like a puppy. Saying I just don’t get this powerless sh*&^%T.

Guess what ladies! It’s bullshit. SO run like the wind…to Smart Recovery, Secular for Sobriety, Hams Harm Reduction, moderation.org, or read a new good book about addiction like RECOVER! Stop thinking like an addict, The Sober Truth by Lance Dodes, Amy Lee Coys book, From Death DO I part, or Hank Hayes’ book called ” On Track & Beyond.”

I have observed that although in America we have been hijacked by a twisted baby cult called Alcoholics Anonymous with its wacky brainwashing techniques from the post prohibitionist 1930’s.  Sadly …this baby cult is quietly , anonymously, powerfully entrenched in our government, social services, criminal justice system, schools, medicine, aviation worlds.

Lucky for us…there are free blogs , Facebook and the internet. SO now when someone is unhappy with AA, they go home to their computers or get on their smartphones and type in  “is AA dangerous ” Is AA a cult” “.

I also have pitched my film to many in the International Documentary world, here in Toronto, so many , many people now know the truth about AA and I also know that AA has not conquered the WORLD!  Here are some new things I discovered. In Sweden AA is popular…In Germany they hate AA. There are many places where AA is not popular and even in Canada its does not controll their medicine or the treatment of addiction. and their social work  is also not controlled by AA, or its members, or Like MINDED DOCS!!!

This was an old post from stop 13 step in aa that I wrote from 2011…I have edited and updated. Happiness is being free from even a baby  cult! … LOL 🙂

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104 thoughts on “A Sub Culture of 12 step groups mentality have undermined our society and weakened our integrity. Powerless or empowered?

  1. I have been thinking on the ways that AA became entrenched in our culture. One thing that occurred to me was an observation I made when I first entered AA 22 years ago. A huge number of people “in recovery” back then went back to college at a certain point. It was almost expected at that point. The reason being that apparently Vocational Rehabilitation had money to send alcoholics and addicts to college to become productive citizens (the ADA of 1990 designated alcoholism and addiction as disabilities). These folks were inevitably drawn to Social Work in order to help others like themselves. This can’t but have facilitated the 12-step doctrine in remaining entrenched in the helping professions..

    • BCM- SO true. I saw this in the late 70’s too…although I studied acting and voice an didn’t go to normal college till years later. I was too afraid of being around partiers… How sad :(…Even in todays world many younger woman are going for the social work degree and Helping others to promote the disease and 12 step mind f**k …it will take a while to un do what has been done the last 50 years.

  2. Yup ,AA is really popular in Sweden…but so is Everything american as well these Days. The youngest member of the Royal family married an american, we import your holidays, your Music, your Movies and your ways of treating addiction…I guess we bought the whole package and have to take the good with the bad…=)

    Didnt know that the germans didnt like AA though ?

    • Yes im from sweden.

      I Think its inevitable for a small country to be dominated or at least heavily influenced culturally by a bigger one…before the US it was actually Germany we looked up to, until you know what happened there 60 yrs ago..

      So dont be sad…I know Im not at least, cant Think of a better country to be influenced by than the US actually, although I would appreciate if we didnt swallow everything u guys come up with so easily…

      AA is about as dominating in the rehabindustry over here as in the US, it has been like this for about 20 yrs or so. But it isnt as near engrained in our Culture yet as it obviously has become in the US.

      • I wish we didn’t swallow everything we come up with so easily!

        When I think of how AA got pushed and entrenched into mainstream thought without anyone with an actual scientific background doing research on effectiveness, as it is in other areas of healthcare, it is frightening. And it appears that any research that is done is explained away by medical professionals in AA.

        • bcm- So true. The reason is , is that AA got into our scientific Universities back in the 1940’s when there was no other method that worked for that time with drunks. Harvard, Mass General to name a few. The ASAM is just a front to push and control Doctors in america. Its very sick and very bad. Im addressing this in the film. Once the film is done I hoe to create a non profit and gets fund to educate and make PSA”s that will open america’s eyes to how a 1930’s religious non scientific group of nut jobs are controlling healing from addiction and alcohol overuse and dependency. Thanks! Its was a bit overwhelming when I discovered how bad this all is…

        • BCM_
          I can’t remember on which forum or site I fund a link to this article. Here is the header and maybe you can google the name or Massive or Anti_denial might know the link source:

          “From the September 19, 1964 Saturday Evening Post.
          By Dr. Arthur H. Cain”

          • I have read that article before. Fifty years ago and people were questioning 12-step methods. Suppression, suppression, suppression.

      • I imagine the reason Germany hates AA with a passion is because AAWS sued several members in Germany. I can’t believe what a warped historian of AA I became over a couple of decades, but especially so in my last 2 years there. — http://www.heise.nu/AALawsuit/

        Background — In the 1970s, the official German edition of the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous had a large number of translation flaws. Probably the most serious problem was that nearly all appearances of the word “spiritual” had been translated as “mental” or “psychological.” …….

        ** So they translated it at their own expense. Big long story omitted – read for yourself — it’s a fascinating eye-opening read!!! **

        AAWS Inc. Steps In — At AAWS request, the German GSO sued Matthew and another individual for the foreign language editions, requesting up to $250,000 in fines for each language.

        When the German GSO lost this lawsuit, AAWS Inc. itself brought suit for about $200,000 directly against Matthew for the free distribution of the foreign language editions of the first edition Big Book by AABBSG, as well as for purchasing a few big books in the U.S. and reselling them in Germany.

        Although the printing was carried out by many AA members in more than one location, AAWS Inc. brought suit against ONE individual. More ominously, the actions of AAWS Inc. have been diametrically opposed to AA’s principles–most notably Step 12, Tradition 5, and Concept XII, Warranty Five.

        In their zeal to win the lawsuit, AAWS Inc. testified to the German court that they were in no way bound by AA tradition, and indicated that the corporate bylaws of both AAWS, Inc. and the German GSO do not prohibit bringing lawsuits, in the expectation that the corporations sometimes must bring lawsuits in order to protect their assets.

        ** Really sad what AAWS did to this guy **

  3. Please don’t judge the 12-step program unless you are an addict of some type. “Powerlessness” address those who have insanely used their power to hurt themselves and others. They must work on a different way of living to overcome the forces that drove them into the addiction. I don’t believe a non-addict can understand the insanity of an addict. Thus, they won’t understand the freedom a simple 12-step program can bring.

    • Btw, the 12-steps is not something magical. It’s just a program that was developed from earlier attempts and now has been copied (AA, NAA, SAA, etc). Similar successes are found outside of AA or the 12-step program. The program is just a formalized path that’s easy to take an addict through.

    • Ummmmmm….. I had over 22 years of sobriety as an active member of AA and used to label myself as an ‘Alcoholic’. I don’t anymore. AA taught me to pigeon hole myself as a set of ‘isms’. I’m not a cookie that is cut out of the same machine as everyone else.

      I am a person – not an ‘Alcoholic’.

      I don’t allow AA to define me and dictate how my life should be run anymore – and for that I am grateful.

      I am free.


      • Librarian- I like that – AA taught me to pigeon hole myself as a set of ‘isms’. I’m not a cookie that is cut out of the same machine as everyone else.

        I am a person – not an ‘Alcoholic’.

    • yeah, 18 years in 12 step programs here, and I found in the end that 12 step was a great impediment to growth. The thing is that over time those who really get some recovery move on in life, and leave 12 step due to the insanity of its dogma. 12 step is ultimately developed on the principals of the oxford group, which I do not think is the worst cult in the world, but members of that movement too fall away when they see behind the curtain.

      12 steps growth is really due to a breaking of its traditions, and its existence frankly impedes more than helps most people. I have lost too many 12 step friends to suicide. It is sad. And when I look at those who spent more time there than I, I truly see very little anyone should want.

      Primarily its only positive attribute that has any merit for most is the social club that it is. But on the other hand this is also the source of much of the dangers that can befall an unsuspecting new member. And too membership with this social club demands a certain amount of conformity, and that conformity is often an act of turning a blind eye to horrible situations that go on in these groups. Also there is often a great deal of spiritual molestation that goes on.

      And lastly those who recover from recovery find that the Alcoholic/Addict label is just a cop out. in reality there is really no such thing. Nobody is powerless, that is just foolishness.

      One day you may understand, and become a far better version of yourself.

  4. Kurt- AA and NA are filled with many predators. Sexual, violent and financial and pedophiles preying on new vulnerable people in the rooms.

    No one is powerless over a substance. That is nonsense. Americans have become a bunch of pussys. Sorry….but we know what AA is and what it is not here on this blog. AA was not developed. Bill Wilson stole it from the evangelical cult The Oxford Groups that Frank Buchman created and he took the original 6 steps and dragged them out to 12 .

    ” over come those outside sources” ??? Oh…some bogeman is responsible for you or The “addicts ” bad behavior. Sorry buddy…but man up.

    People who get sober or clean in 12 step are people who are finally ready to make a change when they walk in the door. The other95 % AA fails.

    • Massive, you have some good points. I agree with you on how the program was developed (Oxford groups, 6 expanded to 12). But when you say “No one is powerless over a substance,” it seems you do not understand the insane mind of an addict. If you’re saying a substance is not a thing with power, I agree. But it’s about the craving of dopamine hits to medicate against underlying drivers (fears, resentments, shame, guilt from harms, etc). And once the medication is received, then remorse and willingness to stop finally sets in….until the drivers grow again and the cycle continues.

      You’re right about predators being in the groups. They may need other programs like SAA. But the 12-steps is not a magical “one size fits all” cure. It’s very personal and unique to each individual… and their willingness to humble themselves and accept a new way of living.

      Hope that helps.

      • In addition, I have seen Many failures through these programs. But, I’ve also seen miracles occur. My sponsor served time for child molestation, has 4 ex-wives, and tried to commit suicide 3 times. It’s been amazing to know him as the “new man” he is today… helping many, many guys also find recovery from their enslaving addictions. His sponsor is another miracle, but from a vastly different background. Success in these programs is no where near 100%, but that doesn’t mean it can bring help to many.

        • Not even AA people with some sense would tell you that the steps fix child molesters.

          The unfortunate fact is that when people in 12 step programs do not remain abstinent, their use is very bad because they have been told continuously that it will be. The truth of substance misuse is that it has many forms and arises from different reasons in different people. “Addiction” is not a one size fits all. People need individualized treatment.

          • Yep. It’s the truth. He would be stopped by someone who wished to confront him about his past. His response would be something along the lines of, “I agree that I caused horrible damage that I can never undo… and probably should never attempt.” but that is the old me and if you wish, I’d love to talk about the new person I’ve become after recovery. But….. if that kind of person has helped me find freedom from addictive slavery (along with Many others), it that not worth taking a moment to reflect upon?

            • Just realized I missed an ending quote. But you’re right. His past is SICK! And it took him hitting that level of a bottom (jail-time, etc) to see that his path was headed toward his own suicide, in addition to harming SOOOOO many people. And that’s the more reason why it’s a miracle to see who he’s become, now.

              I’m still not saying the 12-steps is a magic pill. It’s man-made, thus it’s subject to all of the illnesses that we hold onto. But it is something worthwhile to look in to. And maybe…. just maybe… it’s the infantile step that helps addicts find their own path to recovery, whatever that may be. 🙂

              • I looked into it for over 20 years, I still choose abstinence because my use was in an effort to control major depression and anxiety disorders, which can be managed but will never completely go away. I tried to stay in denial about how the steps made me feel constantly bad about myself and that feeling made me feel like a failure in the steps. It was a viscous cycle. And yes, I did as I was instructed. You have referred to the steps as “man-made” but inferred that, through the program, your sponsor is now a miracle. I don’t know if it can go both ways. I certainly hope your sponsor is getting intensive psychiatric care and is on a VERY short leash, legally. He is a danger to society, and that’s simply a statement of fact.

                • Hi ghost,

                  Kurt doesn’t talk like any aerospace engineer I’ve ever encountered, and I’ve known quite a few, therefore I call TROLL ATTACK on this one.

                  I am leery of his revealing his ‘sponsor’s’ history, it has the appearance of slander and Massive, I would remove his posts for liability purposes.

                  Looks to me that you are being worked into some kind of slander case, I advise you to delete him, Massive.

                  • I do not think it is slander, certainly not if it is true. And the guy did not give out the persons identity. I know of sex offenders in the rooms, it is really common. Is it slander for me to say that? Once I learned of it is a huge part of why I left 12 step so many times. You cannot trust anyone there. They are all talk about how well and wonderful they are now that they have “The Program” yet they often are engaged in some hideous stuff, that they do not broadcast or boast about too often.

                    • HI Ghost,
                      well, to my estimation this “Kurt” has already misrepresented themselves as male and an engineer, both of which are blatant lies in my estimation, therefore nothing this person says is truthful and is a manipulation.

                      This site is Massive’s intellectual property and people should respect that. No one should be using her site as a platform for vengeful gossip and slander. Whether this situation is true or not, these are still allegations made by a poster who is misrepresenting their identity to hide behind.

                      Again, “Kurt” needs to defend the “magic” and “miracles” of AA on her own blog and leave Massive out of it.

                  • my only point is that it is ok to let those who troll a little or just disagree to post a little, mainly for the chance for us to rebut.

                    If you delete every single post that is disagreeable I think it hurts this site more than helping.

                    Deletion should be saved for true trolling, purely meant to be blatantly offensive.

                    The thing about people like kurt is that he may one day turn to our side. And we should be sure to keep a chair for him here….. lol

              • Hey “Kurt,”
                I’ve never known any adult male who would say “SOOOOOOO…” the way you do. Especially an engineer.

                Honestly “Kurt,” your writing reveals you to be a woman, quite clearly.

                And where have you worked as an “aerospace engineer,” really, if you are going to make such a blatant lie please think it through a bit.

                Now, there are many very fine female aerospace engineers who are outstanding in their fields.

                But you, “Kurt,” are not one of them.

                Look lady, if you’ve got a bone to pick with one of the old dudes in A.A. (boring!) why not get your own blog and quit using Massive’s site as your personal revenge fantasy.

                Honestly, girl, work your ‘program.’

      • There is no such thing as a sex addict. It is foolishness. Look into it…. or Porn addicts.

        These are not diseases, they are simply self fulfilled prophecies due to puritanical influences putting a guilty seed in the mind of the spiritually/mentally abused individual. Look into it.

        The problem is not the sex and porn {or alcohol or drugs} it is the puritanical pressure that causes the false belief {and behavior} that feeds into the disease delusion. It may come from a church, or 12 step group feeding false information.

        none of these things are a big deal. Making them out to be is the real problem.

        • OMG- can I just say it is so nice to have a sane person here blogging. There are many of you …and thank you !!! ALL of you and the Ghost of Oddness.

          Librarian- I like that – AA taught me to pigeon hole myself as a set of ‘isms’. I’m not a cookie that is cut out of the same machine as everyone else.

          I am a person – not an ‘Alcoholic’.

          I interviewed a scientist At UCLA she was on TV as well saying ” Sexual Behavior is not an addiction.

          • I am also a scientist and engineer (Aerospace). I say this only because I’ve realized that, just because I’m a trained scientist with an embedded, logical thought-process…. it doesn’t help me understand everything about life and my nature.

            I’m waaaaay off topic, but… for a thought experiment, I’d suggest this. All the science/math in the world can’t forecast the falling of a leaf from a branch. Think about it, seriously.

            I’m just saying. Don’t take a scientist’s word without realizing they are also human and often not humble enough about life.

            • I am likely to take a scientist word if they are talking about their field of expertize, and it is based on evidence.

              Though all the science cannot foretell the falling of a leaf, it is not reasonable to then assume the correct answer is “God did it”.

            • “Kurt,”
              I suggest you contact a true, blue, botanist to help you understand the plant kingdom.

              There are in fact, a few things that botanists still find to be a mystery: how nitrogen is fixed and spread to other plants and many aspects in mycology.

              However, your statement that “All the science/math in the world cannot forecast the falling of a leaf from a branch…’ is not a particularly learned stance, especially coming from an “aerospace engineer.”

              Botanists most definitely can ‘forecast’ when leaves will be falling from plants and trees, and do so, along with farmers, gardeners, and other plant enthusiasts.

              The plant kingdom is indeed the closest thing we have to real ‘magic,’ and just the germination of a seed is an almost miraculous event.

              I hope in your future endeavors, dear “Kurt,” that you allot your salutations of “miracles” and “magic” no to the bilious and belligerent members of AA but to the grace and beauty of the plant kingdom.

        • Somewhere up above, Kurt wrote “You’re right about predators being in the groups. They may need other programs like SAA.”

          My jaw dropped. Now *there’s* a smart idea! NOT. I dated a self-proclaimed ‘sex addict’ who went to SAA. His best friend was a child molester, mandated by the courts, but he stayed long after that was done.

          SAA is a haven for disturbed, sick, felons like rapists & child molesters, who use SAA as a revolving door dating service. They ALL slept with each other. Gay, straight, bisexual, sponsors with sponsees.

          After their little affairs would end, with members being butt-hurt (no pun intended), they’d go back to SAA, confess their sins, and the whole cycle would start all over again. The pervs are already in SAA, and it’s more sicker than AA or NA or any other XA I ever had the displeasure of attending. Yuck.

    • absolutely “just stop it.”

      There are also “therapists” who base their practice on “un-Gaying” people. Does not mean that their lives work is valid.

      Look into therapists and the “Satanic Cult” molestation phenomena in the 80’s. Or multiple personality disorder. Or UFO abducted believers being influenced by bad therapy.

      I would posit that 12 step too is most often bad therapy.

      • I have deleted some of her crazy posts about phony Sex ” addiction ”

        AA loves to spread their nonsense and disempower more men in America, and give a pass to pedophiles and rapists.

        What a sick program, culture and society.

        We dont care what you think or how many degrees you have. We listened to jerks like you in AA for decades.

        We are gone….or maybe you didn’t notice because you are so obsessed with your self and your ideas and spreading your AA religious fake therapy ideals.

    • “Have you ever reviewed the cycle of insanity that an alcoholic follows? ”

      Surely, until I stopped bullshitting myself and more was reveled. I saw that some of that insanity had to do with things out of my control, and the rest of it was actions I chose to take.

      Alcohol had no part whatsoever, I used to believe that it did, but I was way wrong. So I stopped doing actions that were severely detrimental, for the most part, and walla! problems solved.

      • I still see steppers almost daily, and I just have to say, the further you get away from the “program” the crazier those people seem.

        Its really sad. I feel bad for them.

  5. I should probably explain a bit further about the “falling of a leaf” since that’s become a topic of interest. I know that’s a “cute” statement, but it’s a good flyby look at a deeper issue — the lack of humility of scientists who think they “know” so much, but actually forget how often they’re surprised (think recent Horizon mission to Pluto).

    Scientists cannot judge the falling of a leaf to within seconds/minutes/hours unless they’re causing it in a lab. But that’s just a fun thot experiment.

    Check this out. Scientists know how to use thrust out of a rocket to propel mass to a distance. That goes to what they “know” about a law called Conservation of Momentum. But…. WHY does momentum need to be conserved?? No one knows. It’s just an experimental reality that we’ve observed that doesn’t change. We build the crud off that foundation, but don’t know why this law exists.

    How about this one? Why do magnetic “like poles” repel while “opposite poles” attract? Look it up. No ones knows the detailed reason as to why. If we’d never seen it happen in reality, we wouldn’t have believed the occurrence. Yet we use the bookoo crud out of it for all sorts of uses.

    If you want to bring a Higher Power into it…. what if he changed that. What if the coefficients of friction were modified in the slightest bit… and momentum didn’t need to be conserved. Our whole world would turn upside down. Yet maaaany scientists have this inflated ego about how much we “know.” And anything not known will be someday.

    So… I’m waaay off on a tangent, here. My point of this is similar to the chapter in the AA Big Book entitled “We Agnostics.” It’s that scientists are just people like you and me, trying to make sense of the world around us. And it’s very possible God exists and has more meaning than we can imagine. That leads us back to reaching out to that Higher Power for help that we cannot find within ourself against our addictions.

    Okay… fire away. lol

    • it seems to me you trying to point out the arrogance of scientists making assumptions as a justification for the rather large assumption you posit that there is a sky daddy. Without evidence. It seems not so scientific to me.

      • ghostOfOddness, great point. I’m not trying to prove God’s existence via a counter argument. It’s just important to dig into WHY you believe what you believe. Don’t believe everything you hear about science. Those same scientists who professed some solid truth… get super astounded when they found something that shouldn’t have existed. It’s amazing, really.

        Same goes for religion. Don’t accept something just cuz you’ve been raised in it. I did, then walked away, then came back thru my own life experiences.

        If you don’t believe in God b/c you were harmed by those who purportedly do his work…. realize there’s a HUGE difference between God and religion. I would suggest you attempt to separate the two and see where that leads.

        • I’m sorry Kurt but your posts about God, Spirituality and Religion sound like patronizing stepper talk. We are not children and are able to figure things out ourselves.

          One of my objections to The Program was that I would have to pretend to have interest when things that were so obvious got explained to me – whether I wanted them to or not.

          Call be arrogant but one of my biggest frustrations within the doors was not being able to walk and talk with my intellectual peers. Simple as that.

          It was at times like living on the ward of the Cuckoo’s Nest and pretending it wasn’t.


          • * Call me arrogant but one of my biggest frustrations within the doors – was not being able to walk and talk with my intellectual peers. Simple as that.*

            Edit Reason: Tablet is too small to catch all the typo’s.

            • The point if he does not get it…. lol.

              He is so arrogant in his steppism he does not seem to be aware or concerned at all that he is being abusive.

              Typical Stepper. Ever wonder why they have such high rates of divorce?

              • * one of my biggest frustrations within the doors – was not being able to walk and talk with my intellectual peers. Simple as that.*

                Interesting. That’s not been my experience at all, but it would frustrate the crud outta me as well. 🙁

                GhostofOddness, am I being abusive? I sincerely wish to know. I have actually felt a bit of that, here… being judged as a lady, shown to love a God that loves murder, etc. I thot I was being gentle in response… tho I do have strong, thought-out beliefs (like yall do)… and that may have come across not as I intended.

                If I’m being abusive, I sincerely apologize. That has not been my intent at all. 🙁

                If my promotion of the steps (and not all groups are healthy, mind you…) is abusive in light of the audience, here, that has been harmed… then I will digress. My hope is all find their path to healing, whatever it is.

                I had planned not to post anymore, but some members keep asking questions, or trolling me via mischaracterizations. So, I only wished to respond and clear confusion…

                • “GhostofOddness, am I being abusive?”

                  Understand this and you may see why a little mud is slung your way. My brother was the same way until he finally relapsed after 18 years in AA and became human again.

                  Think of it this way, you are here posting and Arguing AA mythology.

                  In a group for people who have been harmed in AA, and want support to leave.

                  Put yourself in the position of a battered wife seeking help to escape.

                  Then imagine if the staff at the shelter were all men who beat their wives. And vocally justified their reasoning for doing so. With no regard for the victim.

                  That is what you are doing here.

                  • Okay, gotit (I think). I appreciate the candor and directness.

                    Btw, I’ve never been to an AA meeting, but have heard a lot of problems, there. I’m involved in men’s only SAA so can only speak to my experiences, there.

                    From what yall describe, the AA interactions sound pretty horrible. I looked up some other recovery paths such as SMART recovery. It seemed similar to my experience, but with the removal of God and focus on scientific principles. I see nothing wrong with that if it works. I choose to believe in a higher power and so the 12 steps seems to work fine for me.

                    Anyways, I appreciate your honesty and I think I’ve begun to learn a good deal from this discussion… even if just a start. 🙂

                    • ok, I know little of SAA, many 12 step groups are similar to AA but many are not.

                      I tell ya though I do hear a lot about sex Addiction via media I follow and the main conception is that it is merely a Christian construction. It is not a real disorder.

                      I only point this out to you because I would be wary of trying to solve a problem that seems to stem from religious origins, with a program that further pushes religious ideology.

                      Sometimes the best way to stop being sick is to stop saying you are sick. Realizing you are normal is a quite liberating thing. Then make adjustments to your life if you still feel there is a discrepancy between your desired moral center, and the actual way you are living.

                      If you do not get this I cannot help you, or can anyone. But frankly to become healthy we must be able to help ourselves.

                    • I gotcha. Truthfully, I felt sex addiction was some crutch used to excuse behaviors. But then, I realized I also fell into the category (tho unsure if it’s pushed by the christian community ‘cuz most of them shun us).

                      Basically, my actions were leading me to losing jobs and almost my marriage.

                      I realized I didn’t fall into the “hard drinker” category, but much worse. After acting out, I’d be so sick that I just violated what I’d promised to do.

                      Anyways, I’ve found 2 years of “sobriety” by getting involved in SAA and the steps.

                      Tho, I haven’t seen the dysfunctionality described about AA…. and can only imagine what that’d be like.

                      I sincerely appreciate your thots. I may check back from time to time, but I’ll work to not push my views, thus causing more harm to your members.

                      Thanks again!

        • I remember the spiritual wars that flamed in the meetings:
          “My god’s better than your god; my god’s better than yours. My god’s better ’cause he eats Ken-L-Ration, my god’s better than yours…”

        • It leads nowhere because there is no god. Religion, “Faith” are merely mental abuse.

          And almost nowhere is that mental abuse more prevalent than in 12 step groups.

          You accused me of trolling you on another post…. I replied there, but be clear, you are the troll here, I am merely having fun with your delusional thinking,

          I am just a self aware monkey. I feel no moral infraction hucking a turd or two when properly inspired.

          Your status as troll is evidenced by others who claim it here, yet you are for the most part tolerated. {and I have defended your presence.}

          Yet as I always have to ask the stepper Internet trollers community, do you talk to your sponsor about your on-line activities?

          • Yes, I do. I have filters in place as well and this was not blocked. 🙂

            If anyone wishes to dive into evidence for existence of God, I’m glad to do so. But I get the impression it won’t be appreciated. Somehow my honest sharing of my views, with supporting reason, is deemed as trolling. *sigh*

            I wished to have a logical back ‘n forth conversation… without upsetting or abusing anyone, but it seems this isn’t the place for that…

            • MISS KURT- No I am not interested in pro stepper talk every again.

              I spent enough time in that stupid cultish self help toxic groups and thinking to last a life time.

            • ‘ being judged as a lady, shown to love a God that loves murder, etc.’

              Hello Stalkerbelle,

              1) You have listed yourself as ‘Kurt’ but have made a mistake and called yourself by your true gender.

              2) It’s the same old thinly veiled rhetoric as usual.

              Don’t you ever stop?


        • the reason not to believe in god is because there is zero evidence for it. And the probability is very very low.

          I was an atheist before, but 20 years of 12 step pounded that into my head. Faith is for fruit-loops, and the fear based.

          I feel sad for 12 steppers, it is such an impediment to personal growth. It is so sad.

          I work with people now who want to learn to rain their drinking in… lol. It is so clear the difference between them and the stepper. The former is a rational group of people empowered to make real change in their lives, and succeeding. The later a powerless group looking skyward and pointing to a bottle as their master. It is just sad.

    • “And it’s very possible God exists and has more meaning than we can imagine.”

      What is the difference between “very possible” and “possible”? Perhaps “very” is just a suggestion to be taken or left?

      • Yes, it’s just a suggestion. I can’t prove God exists. It’s only my belief, based on probabilities and my personal experience. But I cannot convince anyone. I only offer it as a suggestion to be taken or left.

        • Dear Daddy in the sky,

          I would like to just take a second to reflect on all the babies god slaughtered today. Because not a duck can fart beyond his grace.

          Hellalooya. Great plan HP. Those babies probably did not suck up to you enough.

          Oh yeah, and thanks for the homeless, Aids, Cosby and Donald Trump lord.

          And I never believed in that dinosaur conspiracy.

          {and please do not murder me in my sleep}


          • Interesting take, but you forget free will (lengthy topic).

            I didn’t really expect trolling from the members, here. But given this is a site helping people harmed by others (steppers, etc)… it’s probably understandable. I hope yall find a path of healing in whatever way you proceed. 🙂

  6. Kurt-

    Why are you here? This is a blog for those who need help with leaving AA. Your ego wants to try to convert us….hmmmm go to The Rowdy RUM on FACEBOOK and a have a field day. Were are here to help those harmed by Predators in AA.

    I will be blocking you if the bloggers feel you are monopolizing the comments with your trash. You know missy you are brainwashed like in a cult kinda brainwashed.

    We are not.

    We are free.

    Bye .

    • Ah….hmm. Now, I’m feeling pretty stupid. I just found this when google for step stuff and saw the talk against the groups. Figured I’d offer my 2 cents, but now I see what’s going on. I really apologize!

      I’ve heard about dysfunction in the AA groups and talk of predators. Many guys that found their way into SAA went to AA/NAA first until they realized their “root addiction” was something worse.

      My advice, for whatever it’s worth. If you find predators in AA, please get law enforcement involved (if that’s an option). And if/when they hit their bottom… point’m to SAA.

      But I’ll hop off now.

  7. The more I stay away from AA the more I can see the brainwashing and the sheer utter insanity of steppers like this latest wingnut on this thread. A convicted child-molester as a fucking sponser should tell everyone on here who we are dealing with here. I’ve heard some sick things in my time but that tops them all… It really is a crazy fucked up world in that cult with the clowns running the circus!! It makes my skin crawl that this latest clown who has a child-molester as a sponser is on here pontificating and trying to make us see the error of our ways!! God only knows who I was sitting next to in those rooms sharing my personal intimate details.

    • one of the funniest experiences I had was when I switched to AA from mainly doing NA at a certain group in my town. NA here is totally a mindless chanting group, which is why I got the hell out of there.

      Anyway, the AA here is the total opposite, no chanting, very little stupid crap, in fact often people shared about what bs the BB was in the meeting group I attended.

      So at one meeting several of my NA chanting buddies showed up to an AA meeting. Afterward they all commented about how they had to bite their tongues to not shout out things that they mindlessly chanted in the NA meeting….. This is the programming.

      Same goes for the adoption of false logic and belief. See Kurt’s recent posts.

  8. reposting where this may be more visible:

    Ah….hmm. Now, I’m feeling pretty stupid. I just found this when google for step stuff and saw the talk against the groups. Figured I’d offer my 2 cents, but now I see what’s going on. I really apologize!

    I’ve heard about dysfunction in the AA groups and talk of predators. Many guys that found their way into SAA went to AA/NAA first until they realized their “root problem” was something worse.

    My advice, for whatever it’s worth. If you find predators in AA, please get law enforcement involved (if that’s an option). And if/when they hit their bottom… point’m to SAA.

    But I’ll hop off now.

  9. See my comments up above. I now realize what’s going on here… and how I’m so dense for not noticing. My sincere apologies! 🙁

    • hey Kurt ..what happens when you and your wife disagree on something, do you go ” i gotta go to a meeting”…wtf husband is that..lol

      • I’m not sure where that question came from. But no. First, I usually fall into my guy-defensivenses and make things worse. lol! But then when I realize what’s going on, I try to either be more humble of spirit and understand her perspective. Or, if I still think she is off-base, I try to work on acceptance of her and the situation and still try to relate. But there’s no formula to it. I just know that the responses of my previous nature caused things to worsen all around.

        • Well Kurt- you seem more opened minded then most steppers who find us. You may have your mind opened and the light will shine in. Good night for now all.

            • Kurt please accept my apologies for the comment above in relation to you and your wife, it was totally unnecessary and best wishes for you and yours.

              • Awww… thanks and no worries. Yall don’t know me and I don’t know yall, so hopefully it was just misunderstandings.

                Overall, I’m disturbed to hear about the AA experiences (tho ur prob disturbed to here about mine in SAA, lol), but just glad newbies and members are finding deserved healing, here. 🙂

                • Is your group small, sometimes that makes the experience much different. I know prior to the courts flooding the rooms with prison inmates, the 12 step scene here was quite different.

                  • I find that many who have an honest positive view of 12 step as a whole, who are not just crazy people, are often those who are not really, or have ever been that invested 12 step.

                    if you do the “Deal”, sponsor, almost daily meeting, work all the steps over and over…etc.

                    You will either be a mind-numbed step zombie, living life on a Hamster wheel {the steps}, and sleeping bed of slogans, or one of us, the dead who woke up.

                    And learned how to really live. People make mistakes. We do not have to pay for it the rest of our lives. It is not that hard to align your morals with your actions. And that is a good thing to do.

                    But rather than relying on a “Higher power” to do the work is foolishness. A total waste of time. And this is where 12 step comes out as a fundamentalist Christian thing. They put the blame on everything external, claim weakness, even illness, and appeal to the gods.

                    The truth is that Good people generally do not do really bad shit.

                    If I am doing bad things, I am not being a good person, if that catches up with me I suffer consequences.

                    Consequences generally suck. So it is wise to just be a good person.

                    • Oh wow! Well, our group ranges from 12-20 attenders each week.

                      I’m of the mindset of 1-2 meetings/week and reworking the steps only if you wish.

                      I’ve seen a tad of the zombie-ness u mention, but not much. I find our veteran members want to get to a more “realness” with each other… and engaged back into the reality of normal living.

                      But I could totally envision the environment you mention. That wouldn’t work for me…

                    • to the below, yes that sounds like a very abnormal 12 step group. Over all as groups grow there is more of a tenancy to conform to a group standard of speech rather than getting real.

                      Some people may get real, but there is a lot of pressure to conform to the group standard, which is generally fundamentalist book standard.

                      By that I mean that people quote the passages of the group literature as if it is scripture to each other.

  10. This is a great post that predates my involvement with the site, so this is my first reading of the post.

    AA is a form of soft fascism as evidenced by the “conform or die” mentality (…jails, institutions, or death…). Its purported anarchy-based “leadership” structure really hides what is so boldly stated in the first tradition.

    What always struck me is when people were accepting their yearly medallions, they would almost glaze into a trance-like slogan stating that they could not have done it (whatever it is) without the program. Program, program uber ales…

    Fascism was rampant in the 1930’s. AA is one fairly subtle expression of it. (And let’s remember Frank Buchman’s admiration of Adolph.)

  11. I am most recently upset — no, I’m LIVID — about a therapist I had been seeing for a month already who I found out this week is yet another stepper. October and November are creeping up on me, and it brings up lots of stuff I grieve over.

    I have lost so many people in my life these past 4 years, and I felt myself going into crises mode. I knew I needed help with my emotions, and I specifically asked NOT to be assigned to anyone who is in 12step! I let my wall down! I trusted her! I shared my pain, anger and sadness with her! And now I feel betrayed. All over again. Reeled in like a damn fish. I am really upset by this. 🙁
    It always ends up the same, with them eventually interjecting their ‘program drivel’ into things. It interferes with my MD prescribing medications. I had to practically beg for allergy medication this week.
    AA clouds their professionalism as medical providers, and we as patients suffer. My trust level is at an all-time low again, and my wall is back up. Screw therapy. Screw AA. Screw the medical profession. I’m done. I’ll deal with it all on my own.

    • I have become of the mind that any professional, particularly doctors and therapists should have to list on their doors all the religious, political, and other weirdo groups they are members of.

      All these things lead to clouded judgment. I want to know who the person in who is in control of my health.

    • Rainbow, I’m sorry that’s happened to you. I would be screwed if something happened to my long time therapist. I probably wouldn’t bother with trying to find another one either. I don’t need it like I once did anyway, but I feel sorry for anyone who’s in that situation of trying to find one that hasn’t been poisoned by the blight of steppism. It’s a national disgrace that the broader mental health community ever allowed these charlatans to infiltrate their ranks.

  12. Chanting slogans and eternal unthinking devotion to a system is about as fascist as it gets….I used to have steppers tell me that the program could cure everything including serious medical illness’s like cancer etc. How insane is that? Hitler was a madman & look at the devastation he caused so it surely it can’t be too unreasonable to think that Wilsons movement is the same though not in the same way Hitlers was. People get duped & brainwashed so easily I think and when a person is beaten down by drugs & alcohol he/she is perfect to recruit. Good & bad in everything I suppose but when the bad outweighs the good then that is the red flag that should be heeded. I am still getting insights on that program & the people in it and I actually see the childish immaturity not to mention the insanity of it all.

    • The Treaty of Versailles was the entry point into the National Socialist Movement of the Fatherland. Predation on a crisis of weakness is a great recruitment tool for fascists, cults, etc. The concept of the “bottom” is AA’s vice-grip on opportunity. It is a time-tested formula. No one should feel embarrassed to have fallen under the spell. But the thought stopping slogans are now behind us. Any regrets? I have none.

      • none- I see it as a toxic group and Cult more and more after hearing Steven Hassan speak in person.

        Anyone who tells you you cant be okay withoit them is a cult requirement

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