CHAPTER 5 from The Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous- Is it just one big LIE ? Whose ASKING?

big book image

DEPROGRAMMING from AA and any other 12 step cult. Page 1. The first thing I heard as I sat in rooms the last 5 months was that all of a sudden it felt like the literature was really off base, filled with lies and antiquated. SO I started my blogtalkradio show SAFE RECOVERY and I took apart the literature.. you can read it there, and I wrote my own version, but this is my own brain, trying to make sense of something that makes no sense. Here we go…

Rarely have we seen  a person …any person who throughly followed Bill Wilson’s path. For if they did, they would have to be clinically depressed for 20 years of their time spent in AA.

They would have to take LSD for a few years to seek cure for alcoholism even though he didnt drink for 20 or so years when he started the LSD treatment. He would have been shunned and judged in today’s AA and have to start over with his time, which is a very important part of the AA hierarchy  of today.

Rarely have we seen a person follow this path. Those who do recover usually fail to completely commit themselves entirely to the wills and wants of this programs sacred leaders and unassailable dogma, usually men and women who are constitutionally capable of absorbing Bullshit.

He says: You are someone who is constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. ( So in plan speak Bill is calling you a sociopath) At every meeting you attend for the rest of your life you will be told this extremely negative phrase and you are expected to take it in and absorb it as truth. ) Sounds kinda destructive to me…

They are such unfortunates. But wait….you are not at fault. He gets you off the hook here. You were BORN THAT WAY! Really Bill? From birth, all of us sweet little babies….we were born broken? Long before we were hit, abused, molested….WTF Bill? Sorry Bill, I don’t think so! You have no natural capacity to be rigorously honest with yourself. ( Is he calling you a sociopath again?) hmmmm I think so. Then he talks about those who have emotional and mental disorders but gee wiz fellas….you too can recover if you can be honest. Now he doesn’t say “In recovery” he says “recover”.

Now here is one of the biggest manipulations used….If you have decided you want what we have and are willing to go to any length to get it. Get what Bill? Sanity….not drinking like you did…moderation….switching from drinking to screwing newcomer woman…cheating on Lois…..creating a fake company and selling stock when no such company existed? Thats fraud…BILL…..Thats go to jail fraud Bill.

Okay , so you make the decision you want what we have, hmmm kinda creepy in todays sexual predator filled rooms, but okay, then you are ready to take certain steps. Now he begs us to be fearless and thorough...I guess like he was.….and that we have to let go of our old ideas …the result would be nil, until we let go absolutely. SO here is where it gets so culty to me.

He now tells us that we have to REMEMBER, that alcohol is cunning, baffling, powerful….really…I think it’s a beverage. A beverage with alcohol in it in different proportions.

When Bill was going through this, prohibition had just eneded and the temperance movement was huge. Alcohol was considered evil. Now Bill was blaming you, me, himself. Demon Rum got off the hook. It was you, me and Bill who were f**ked up now. not alcohol the beverage. Get it….Im sure the booze industry loved this guy.

But now he gets all religious on us. “WITHOUT HELP IT IS TOO MUCH FOR US! But there is ONE who has all power- that one is GOD. MAY YOU FIND HIM NOW!”

OMFG- Now, this is a religion. SO how is any Judge in the land sentencing people to this cult? Oh  boy, we have our work cut out for use….But wait there is more.

Half measures availed us nothing. Again he refers to GOD, that we need protection from HIM….he is talking about God  here, not a lightbulb, I am sure of it.

AND finally here are the steps we took, which are suggested as a program of recovery. NOT “RECOVERING” forever!!!!

OK Im tired now. That was exhausting. Just kidding. It was fun to get it out of my head.

But clearly, if you are leaving, take any part of the literature, write it out and talk back to it using your sane brain which btw you have not lost!!! and post it here or journal privately like some bloggers prefer to do to help deprogram.

Love u guys and gals. :)bloggers:)))




So why did he try it. Was he still having cravings

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67 thoughts on “CHAPTER 5 from The Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous- Is it just one big LIE ? Whose ASKING?

  1. Albert Einstein (not AA) said “Insanity can be defined as doing the same thing while expecting a different result”.
    By their own adopted definition; those who continue to try and work the AA program while achieving negative results are insane.

      • No name calling here tjw626- The BB was ripped off from another book I recently heard in London. and its stupid.
        I also studied and know the BB well. Poor literature for those with addiction issues.

  2. One of the things that finally got me to leave the fellowship was the preamble. “Alcoholics Anonymous is a fellowship of 100 men…” and “Rarely have we seen a person fail…”. I started to get a very uneasy feeling reading those lines. It felt as if every meeting started by stating lies, and a program that is supposed to be built on “rigorous honesty” has to back up its claims with proofs. We should be able to know how many of the “first 100” that actually remained sober. And AA should be able to give an account on that today. These first members are long gone dead, and investigation into these matters should not impose any problems with tradition or such.

        • Urgh, this kind of info makes me so – excuse my language but it makes me so fu**ing mad – I read somewhere that the 100 figure actually came from the Oxford Group, that Bill W borrowed their numbers, I’d love to say I don’t care but it makes my blood boil. Where the figure came from is kind of irrelevant it’s the freakin lies and bs, everytime I read into the history of that idiot Wilson I just get so wound up, no amount of f’ing inventory would make this one go away…

          Part of me feels like an idiot for getting suckered into any of this, but another part makes me so mad that I was bloody desperate when I went to those people for help. The 12 step movement is so widely accepted as a lovely little fluffy group where people with bad drinking/drugging (don’t forget gambling, sexing, cluttering, shopping, co-dependents etc etc) go and the nice people at AA will help you, like BULLSHIT.

          Bottom line, I WAS f**ing desperate like so many other people must be when I first wound up looking for help off of the place where people are supposed to go with those kind of problems and I get all this bs.

          I wouldn’t be so mad if they just admitted what it was and it’s like, this is religious, you’re not gonna get better without God – great, then I get a base to work from and if I think faith might help then I get the chance to choose that path. I’d also think that signposting to a church/mosque/temple – faith of choice could be given.

          Or what about another alternative, if we’re going secular – how about the state I was in just a bit of proper honesty not bs honesty – not that confession and meetings is gonna help but that I am gonna have to find some seriously strong power from inside to fight this condition, it’s gonna be bloody hard work and it might take a bit of time and I might need professional – REAL professional, not sponsor quackery professional – help. Detox, separation from dangerous environments for a while and some serious hard work and time – which is what I probably needed it the time, not to be lied to and bs to. Not being told to look for similarities, they didn’t know me, I didn’t need another addict and ONLY another addict to help me, I needed some serious help at the time.

          It just makes me so F’ING MAD that this shit is perpetuated and has been perpetuated since the 19 f’ing 30s – I was killing myself, dying inside, destroying my family, ruining my life and what did I get – lies, lies and more lies. The local council spending several thousand pounds to send me off for five months to be lied to by steppers cos a bunch of dickheads wrote a book of lies back in the day.

          I don’t know how these people managed to get away with it and they are STILL getting away with it today. I lost my daughter’s father to drug abuse (that was the official cause of death) and if I was still involved in this f’ing freakshow nonsense I would be terrified for the poor kid that having two ‘addict’ parents, I would probably believe that the poor kid is doomed ‘cos of some non-existent genetic pre-disposition to some bs made up rotting brain disease that she might have inherited, Lordy I’m glad I know that is not true, that I have a perfectly healthy NORMAL child that doesn’t need to be dragged around meetings being exposed to the bad language, the war stories, the psychos, people who think they are ‘insane’ and even laugh about it.

          F**K you Bill Wilson and all your deathly lies, I escaped and I won’t be telling another soul that they are doomed unless they beg the nearest filthy ashtray for help.

          GRRRRRRRR! That’s better! I’m so glad I NEVER have to read that disaster of a work of fiction ever ever again!

          • Hi nieko

            I feel your anger and can relate to it. I try to get some perspective on this AA thing for my own peace of mind. Id like to think that the big book was written by people born in the 1800´s, they didnt know so much about the brain and body as we do now, as an example dopamine werent discovered until the 1950´s. The subject of psychology, as a science at least, were not that well explored either. So with this background I think the ideas in the big book make some sense.

            But they were just ideas, in meetings they get presented as the result of a trial and error- process which filtered them out resulting in this perfect flawless program. That might be true of the process behind the traditions, but its not true of the steps. There been enough research and critisism done on these steps to render them irrelevant or even harmful in some respects. But AA as an organisation hasnt been able to absorb these findings and views. Maybe the traditions arent that flawless after all ?
            My personal view of the steps these days is that they can be somewhat harmful. and to some extent is bad psychology, even though a lot of it sounds good in theory. As they are presented, both in the rooms and in the literature, they can become an obstacle for real help and that pisses me off.

            The critique of AA is not something new either


            • Despite all the strides made in neurobiology the problem remains largely unchanged. For those people that have alcoholism their lives are an utter mess. I’d rather be in my “little cult” and have a day of sobriety and relative happiness than to be straight, angry. I’ve made lifelong friends who are thoughtful, kind and productive who are always willing to help another suffering soul. Thank you Bill, thank you Dr. Bob. I’ve been sober in AA for 36 years. But for the grace of God, there go I , an utterly raging person filled with self righteous indignation at the success of others.

              • Hi Donald, Science has accomplished alot. Watch the film One Little Pill, by Claudia Christian, Listen to Dr carl Hart, Read The Sober Truth by Lance Dodes,

                There is a drug called Naltrexone that helps many who are addicted. CBT is used by a REAL therapists who are trained in Addiction studies.

          • I have just recently been doubting the “program “ I was in a men’s group of very flawed sponsors who live in the past. How can you be in the program for 25 years and have so many “shortcomings “. Every day I would say the seventh step and still struggle. Thinking I was at fault. Did Bill in a state of religious fervor really believe I could say a prayer and all my shortcomings would be gone

  3. The preamble for sure if mostly lies.
    Let’s start with

    Alcoholics Anonymous is a Fellowship of men and women…really ….a “fellowship”?

    How bout a program of angry and vulnerable men & women, filled with pedophile, rapist and violent criminals, including angry crusty old-timers who will quickly prey on you for sex in exchange for listening to them talk about themselves and preach you the platitudes of their AA years and wisdom about the 12 steps and how great they worked them!

    Let me go throw up …I’ll be back with more on that one. or listen to the episode on blogtalkradio Safe REcovery that I did about the BB and the literature. Just get through the first 7 minutes and Im off and running about the BS in that book!

  4. ya that is true, all you ever see attending AA meetings, is sexual perverts of all kinds of sexual preferences, I just hate them damn guys what go there, It is all most like a homosexual environment what does not know what they are, thats what it appears to me when anytime I have gone to a AA groups and that is all of the AA groups,

  5. The rooms are full of all sorts of perverts, it is perfect for them as they can manipulate the trust & vunerability of newcomers. Sexual Harrassment is a running joke among most of the oldtimers.

    • ya that is right, these perverts what go there, aint good enough to find there victims in a bar, or a singles group, they pick the AA NA groups because them females are more down and out, and it is cheaper the most of all, it does not cost them very much money to go to AA, and the big book is easy enough to learn,
      I went to a AA meeting yesterday and there was this woman what is a constant relapse, she brags about being a street whore and a junkie, and she gets high and drinks and goes to meetings,
      I think the reason she goes for, is because she is getting older, and can not find the rich guys to mess with so now she is picking hard up AA losers this is my opinion

  6. “Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path.” Bill wrote the mein kampf big lie right up front with that sentence in Chapter 5. Let’s dissect it, shall we.

    1. “Rarely”. What does it mean? 1 %, 5% 50%. The truth is they had no real success or failure rate with which to make that claim. None, Zero, Nada. It is bullshit, plain and simple.
    2. “we” . Who is the we of which he spoke at the time of writing? There were somewhere around 40 people spread between Ohio and New York. Is that the we? Who da we and did they all report on what they saw so Bill could be accurate in writing the book? More bullshit.
    3. ‘fail”. So, what was failure and what was success in 1938? Was not drinking a success? Was taking other drugs a failure? What is the truth? There is none, period. More bullshit.
    4. “thoroughly followed” . Was just following the path not good enough? Did it have to be thoroughly followed? And what, pray tell, does that mean exactly? And, even if one “thoroughly followed” the imaginary path, they could still fail? What the hell? Follow me, but I got to tell you that even if you do everything right, you could still die drunk. Hey, it’s a gawd thing. More bullshit.
    5. “our path”. Probably the biggest piece of bullshit in that sentence although the competition is pretty tough. The only “path” , was the Jesus approach that was being used in Akron and was molded by the Oxford Group. AA historians know this and yet let the nonsense in this sentence take a pass. Bill made up HIS PATH when he wrote the book. The 12 Steps didn’t exist before he dreamed them up FOR THE BOOK, so the “path” of which he speaks where people were so successful, didn’t exist. Repeat, the “path” of which he writes only started to exist when he wrote it. There was no evidence of rare failure for his approach at the time of writing because nobody used it. The truth is most people were not getting sober and some even killed themselves after running into either the old “path” or the new Bill Wilson “path”. Over half of the people in the First Edition of the book either drank, disappeared or died or all three, so there is no evidence of “rare” nor evidence of overwhelming success. It is all one big piece of bullshit !! It’s not real, it’s not provable and shame on all the old time AA bastards out there that know it isn’t true yet don’t have the integrity to stand up and call it the bullshit that it is !!

    • good post. I agree…there were not 100 of them for sure. I he did no research, and there were only 6 steps, they were simple and yes they expected you to give yourself over to Jesus, not God as you understood him.

      Lots of Bulls**t flying around.

      • An old-timer that had moved to my area from New York once told me there were nowhere near 100 in the beginning, and many of the original members did drink again.

          • Hi Tumbleweed, that Ebby drank again is something that AA seems to be fairly honest about – unbelievably! Gary Sinise (of CSI NY fame) plays Ebby in that dreadful movie “My Name is Bill W” – you see Ebby drunk after he has given Bill the knowledge.

            As for whether someone’s sponsor told someone else about it, maybe they’ll get back to you, I was always really apologetic to my sponsor when I called her up with inventory on Bill W – I wonder if he did take that whiskey on his deathbed and it’s been kept on the downlow? Wouldn ‘t surprise me…

          • Thinking about it, a lot of the more culty big book meetings I went to had a few guys who were pretty down with a lot of AA history and knew that previously recovered early AAs then went and got un-recovered, had their stories taken out of the BB etc. They just seemed to take it as a warning that these guys didn’t do their programme properly and that’s why they drank again.

          • Oh yes, she talked at length about the internal wars in AA at the time regarding Ebby’s drinking and whether they should try to hide his relationship to AA through Bill or not.

          • Hi Nieko

            Ok, it was news to me…and your right,a lot of the info on AA´s history I find on the web is often presented by AA-members…so I guess they are not a secret among the zealots.

            I interpret this info differently from how the AA´s interpret it, obviously, the program cant fail people only people can fail the program…and Ebby failed the program of course…which only reinforces the strength of the program.
            This logic is creepy…I could come up with a flawless program for addiction in 15 – 25 seconds using this kind of logic.” Step 1 : dont drink alcohol”.. and if someone fail to follow this simple program he will surely drink again. And if he drank again..he wasnt doing my program…

          • By gosh I think you’re on to something good there tumbleweed, talk about clear cut direction and keeping it simple, you’re ticking all the boxes. I guess Ebby was one of the ‘unfortunates’ – all that incapable of being honest blah blah blah.

            However, if you do work the programme, especially your 12th step as rigorously as Bill W and Jimmy Kinon (co-founder of NA) you too could end up clean, sober AND suicidal in double digit sobriety, anyone want what they got?!!!

          • Hi Nieko

            Yes, these things gets silly when you get some distance from the program wouldn´t you say ?
            I remember a meeting where a guy shared of his relapse he had after 8 yrs sober in the program, he came to the conclusion that the slip happened because he had failed to make an amend to his former employer, at the time I thought that made a lot of sense, was filled with some of that good ol 12 – step fear and felt I really had to get down with the program…or else…

            I certainly has nothing against spiritual principles such as honesty, humility, patience etc…I mean who does ? you would have to be a nazi or serial killer to find those things appalling.
            But I dont think its possible for a human being to be 100% abiding to those principles all the time…and its really easy to find examples where you didnt live up to these principles…but seriously…to make it an excuse for drinkin just doesn´t apply..

            I now very little of Jimmy Kinon, altough I been into NA as well as AA. Did his God give him decades of depression also ?
            Time for some googling for mr Tumble I guess…

    • The more I start to look into the history of ” the steps” and Mr Wilson the more irrelevant for sobriety they seem to be . How can AA´s argue that you would have to do the 12 steps exactly as outlined in the big book when the early AA´s didnt do them that way ?
      Why couldnt mr Wilson just kept the original 6 suggestions from the Oxford group, seems to me they were a hell of a lot more easy to follow instead of his 12 steps explained trough 164 pages of text.
      As for the “spiritual awakening” as a result from taking these steps, thats just a lie. Mr Wilson didnt have his spiritual experience that way, it came about in a hospital when he was pumped up with delerium, belladonna and sedatives.
      There should be a clause between step 11 and step 12 which suggest a lsd-tablet, that would surely bring about the spiritual experience.

        • Yup, I thought so too. Actually this belief made me OD on spirituality, searching for this, according to mr Wilson, much needed experience.

          I think mr Wilson thought he had a very special experience too, making him very special and especially well suited to carry the word of God from this point on. His God answered obviously to this with giving him severe depression for 20 yrs.

  7. Wilson gave up on the Steps & turned instead to LSD, and God knows what else after that. In all my years in those rooms I had yet to meet anyone who had had a “spiritual’ experience as a result of those Steps ever!! It’s one big con.

    • i did, but it was from not drinking. I did get a natural high for about 7 months.

      Does anyone else think Jennifer Lawrence is a stepper? From SIlver Linings Playbook? My AA radar is up….

      • I didn’t hear her, did she sound programmed? She is from Louisville and in my experience AA folks in that city sound very, very steppish; the whole alternative language thing to the max. She is only around 20, maybe fmr Ala-teen?

  8. Wow – reading everyone else’s posts everyone seems pretty darn mad at that stupid dumb book and that stupid damn chapter 5.

    I burned my books so I don’t have one to reference – though hearing this stuff so many times it also may have burned itself into my brain and if I remember rightly I do believe chapter 5 may contain words that go something like this…

    “If you want what we have….” – let me think about that, erm, do I want what they got, – let’s ‘keep it simple’ – nobody there has what I want – unless it’s a Porsche and a scuba diving trip to the Maldives. They can keep their ‘inside jobs’ from the external power greater than. Do I want what you got, NO!

    “and are willing to go to any lengths to get it” – any lengths, what is any lengths? That’s kinda vague, I have heard people share stuff like this “if my sponsor told me I had to eat doggie doo doo and run up the street naked every morning to stay sober then I’d do it” – and if that wise old sponsor told you to jump off a cliff to stay clean (which actually chances are it would work, unless you survived and ended up pumped full of morphine – though you might be in danger of having a Bill Dub kind of spiritual experience pumped up on hospital meds) would you do that?

    “then you are ready to take certain steps” – the best 12 steps you could ever take would be the ones when you about heel, leave the church basement and never look back.

    I HATE THAT BOOK (can you tell). And on that note, breathe!!!!!

    • I hate it too. I may do another new show about the book again now that I have been gone for almost 2 years. I listened to the early one and I was still deprogramming. It would be fun if I had you calling in or other ex steppers like Gunthar and peter

      • I’ll have to check out your older shows – I remember you did one on the traditions or the ‘stupid made up traditions’ I think you called them! I don’t think you took any calls you just laid into the traditions for an hour solid, classic!!

        I heard somewhere that one of the traditions used to be that the membership requirement was an ‘honest desire to quit drinking’ but it had to be changed when it was realised that AAs are intrinsically dishonest so wouldn’t know whether their desire was honest or no!

        Then again, although we told you that the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking we missed a bit out; once you’ve declared yourself a member you have to do the steps, it’s only a suggestion but the word suggestion in AA actually means, you must do this. You must also do service if you want to be allowed to stay and us to be nice to you, you must also sponsor people, you must also give us your money, well you don’t have to (suggestive only) but if you don’t we’ll make you really uncomfortable if you don’t put in at least what you would spend on a drink plus you’ll have to make financial amends at some point.

        Whilst I’ve got the stupid made up traditions in mind, I used to get really pissed about people revealing themselves as AA/NA members – this happens on facebook daily; someone would inevitably start bleating on about anonymity then some smartass would pipe up about tradition 11 (I think it’s 11, I don’t care enough to check) they would be no, no, it’s only anonymous at the level of press, radio, TV and film – but THEN tradition 12 states something about anonymity being the spiritual foundation of AA – to me that would nullify press, radio, TV and films for some anonymity blanket. Another load of AA stuff and nonsense.

        I wonder if you could find out if you can Skype the radio show? I’d love to call in to the show.


    This is a great article in the Psychology Today blogs that talks about treatment “professionals” holding onto to old, ineffective 12 step approaches because it’s what they know and their livelihood. Below is a quote:

    “Despite the now enormous body of evidence that 12-step programs are effective for only a very small minority of those who attend them, its defenders are commonly unswayed. This “stuck” system is cemented in place by the large financial interests of 12-step based addiction rehabilitation centers, who need to have people believe that their programs are sound in order to justify their often enormous expense.”

    It is a short but sweet blog post, but definitely one that looks in the right direction. Psychology Today has been really waking up lately. Perhaps there is hope of some future honesty about treatment methods.

  10. i was a member of aa off and on for 7 years. first to get out of legal problems, then to save my job. when i first got out of rehab i did aa for about 3 months then stopped going. i managed to stay sober for 2.5 years all by myself. then i relapsed and remember being told that aa is the only way to get sober. but since i started going back i haven’t been able to stay sober. so i’ve been doing some research since last night then texted my sponsor today and told him i was through. i no longer have to tell people im sorry for things i did in response to them being assholes, or pay the store for the candy bar i stole when i was 7 years old. now i truly feel free of the guilt and shame aa made me think i had. thats all for me i’m going to be busy throwing away all those 24 hour chips i got and those fucking books and prayer cards, oh and deleting numbers of aa members i was suggested to get.

    • ” i no longer have to tell people im sorry for things i did in response to them being assholes, or pay the store for the candy bar i stole when i was 7 years old.”

      Tnx for reminding me, I actually felt that I wouldnt be able to experience peace in my life, and hence be at risk relapsing, until all my amendments were done. It was like this for several years. Its really easy to feel stuck in the rooms…in so many ways..

    • thanks for your post, i made ammends to some of the biggest assholes going.

      I was taken to points where i felt guilt and remorse for wrongs i did to people, things like shouting back at them or hitting them back when they were beating me up.

      I made ammends to people who severly abused me.
      and that have left me with pysical disabilities,and PTSD.
      My ammends were done with hope these people would get some help from my ammends.

      I also belived that what they did to me, was my fault i had caused them to do what they did to me. thats what i became to believe the more i attended and followed what AA suggested.

      This was what i believe aa was telling me…and i didnt talk that much about what they did to me since this was practically barred from being talked about.

    • Sergio, Welcome!

      I will never forget the day I threw out everything that had to do with AA. That one thing brought me such freedom. I had kept those books around (through several moves); for decades, as if they were something sacred. I knew better so; I finally said, why?, they piss me off every time I read them. I had no guilt. “Let Freedom Ring” It’s the beginning.

      I have a friend who sends me “Daily Reflections”; not AA approved literature. I like this one I received recently:

      March 26, 2013

      Your past is always going to be the way it was. Stop trying to change it.

    • sergio – HI WELCOME!!! so nice to see you here. Im glad you found us here. There are many free resources including online meetings with Hams Harm Reduction for alcohol and Moderation.

      It weird….its as if AA and NA has highjacked our culture since the 1970’s that Abstinence and a religious path was the ONLY WAY TO GET HELP. Thats BS. We all know that now, but I didnt know that till 2009 and that is f**cked up.

      Well…. maybe everyone doesn’t want to quit for their entire life!!!

      Great post…:)

  11. i am supposed to be speaking at a meeting right now as i type. but after finding out what this shit was all about i just couldn’t go out there and lie to these people about how aa helped me. no maybe honesty isnt my problem, the only problem i have is trying to reprogram myself into a normal person. those fucking idiots are saying only one of two things about me, one that i’m going to either go insane, die drinking or end up in an institution and the other that i’m not an alcoholic. i used to drink a 30 pack and 750 ml of yager a day for years all alone in my room. i know im an alcoholic i dont need someone to tell me or remind me everyday.

    my will be done

    • sergio 🙂 good for you. They don’t know sh*t about what’s gonna happen to you. Are they Crystal ball readers too? LOL

  12. I knew AA was a lie when my sponsor (6yrs younger than me with 4 mos. sober) told me i must get off my psych meds ive been on for 15 years or i would be outcast-all this BS, i’m DONE!

  13. chapter 5 I remember that one, they always have to read that when they start a meeting, the 12 steps and the 12 traditions, back in 1982, I had a sponsor what was real blunt on the chapter 5, she said that if I did not learn that chapter that I was going to drink and die, I have had thousands of relapses and never died,
    I am considered to be mentally emotional incapital to work that simple program, I do not stop drinking until I was ready for it, and no thanks to the AA groups I went to,
    it seems to me that the ones who try the hardest and got that chapter 5 down patent pending usually go back out and get drunk, or end up commenting suicide, or end up on crazy pills from a doctor,
    I knew this one female what was a real guru, to the other females, she had the book down and she went back out and got drunk and then she never came back she step 13th someone and it back fired on her,
    I have never read chapter 5 in all the years I have been fighting the program. I am a clean and sober disliked by all AA big book thumpers, and considered to be a non alcoholic,

    • There are so many excuses they can use if the program doesn’t work for you:
      – you aren’t working the program correctly.
      – you aren’t convening with your higher power correctly.
      – you’re trying to do the program “your way.”
      – you’re not doing what you’re sponsor says.
      – you’re constitutionally incapable of being honest.
      – you’re not “ready to stop,” you’re not “done.”
      And if you stay sober without the program:
      – you’re a dry drunk or
      – you’re not an alcoholic

      I love it.

  14. Did anyone on this blog???
    – Know a portion of chapter 5 by memory?
    – Ever go to a BB study with a highlighter?
    – Have a commitment at a meeting?
    – Have a sponsor and sponsor others?
    – Have your name on a meeting phone list?
    – Recommend Alanon?
    – Go to Alanon yourself to make others bearable?
    – Go to a coffee shop after a meeting?
    (a) Pay for a newcomer’s meal at the coffee shop?
    – Do Business with AA’s?
    – Quote the Big Book?
    – Try to indoctrinate others?
    – Do H&I work?
    – Speak at a meeting?
    – Go to a convention?
    – Do a 4th and 5th step?
    – Go to an AA workshop?
    – Have an AA bumper sticker?
    – Have an AA chip on your keychain?
    – Vote at a steering committee meeting?
    – Secretary a meeting?
    – Be a greeter?
    – Put more than one dollar in the basket?
    – Buy any books other than the 12×12 and Big Book?
    – Give a Big Book away
    – Find “your part” in abusive relationships where you were the victim?
    *If you answer NO to these questions you are safe and may get on with your life unless someone in AA screwed you over.
    *If you answered yes to ANY of the questions then I feel sorry for you because I know how much it hurts to be a COMPLETE IDIOT.

  15. I was more honest than some of my sponsors, and some others i got to know a little personally.I can’t say i got to know anyone in AA/NA very well no close friends. very few people spoke to me and the few that did i didn’t spend much time with.
    Each time someone relapses in AA and go back they have to give a reason for failing. i would here them do that.”I hid something in my 4th step” “I was too selfish to sponsor anyone “”I took my own will back ” “I stopped going to meetings ” “I didn’t phone anyone ” “I refused to take the steps ” “I thought i would be okay now i had more knowledge “All the time they blame themselfs. Because AA say’s DONT BLAME US DONT BLAME THE PROGRAMME.(Strange there were so many saying diffrent once i actually got through all those steps as best i could then they were telling me it don’t work, yet up till then they kept telling me i wasnt doing it and if i didnt i would drink and die )
    I was told to blame myself for everything including not working it.It’s almost pushed on them to do so. I know it was pushed on me to do this. Each time i went back straight away they would all share “Dont blame us ” ” i relapsed because i hid things in my 4th ” “I relapsed because i didn’t work the programme ” and they who had relapsed, would all share about why they relapsed but then went back and did it right. Like they were telling me this is why you picked up again.and they would say we have to get honest.with others and ourselfs.
    So i would be extra carefull to be honest talk honest all that.made sure i held nothing back in my 4th 5th.Of course AA wouldn’t allow me to be honest in meetings. They made me lie. How did they do this.
    They told me i had to be carefull what i said, think about what i was saying, monitor what i said. They would rebuke me if i said anything critical about AA or anyone there. Even though the ones i knew were back stabbing bastards that spoke about others in AA when they werent in a meeting.They told me not to moan or complain. Lots of things. So if i was feeling chronically depressed and suisidal i couldn’t share that in a meeting. and i had to smile when i felt like shit inside.
    the reason they wanted rid of me. may have been because after a relapse i would go back and say “I was doing everything i knew of it, the programme what’s suggested, when i picked up again ” “I thought i was doing it but i still picked up again”
    I also went back once after being out for 2 years and not say “I didn’t drink and i didn’t have any fights or arguments with anyone or get in trouble i came back because of how i felt “How i felt was a lot of anger about a child molestor that lived in my area who had got away with rape.
    I was worried that i would loose control of my anger and end up in trouble.I was also very hungry, my canabis habit didn’t go away and i had been useing it for the 2 years. It got so bad i wasn’t buying food.I hoped i would get IT and then be clean and not hungry.In hindsight it was AA that made me think i couldn’t control my anger. that anger was something that could lead me to murder. That to feel anger was sinfull bad and fatal.I was told often by a x sponsor and another that i could murder. My friends and family who KNOW me kept saying don’t be daft you haven’t got that in you.
    I know now that wouldn’t have happened.
    They didn’t like it and laughed when i said i hadn’t fought with anyone. I hadn’t i had a fall out with one person via crossed wires when we txt on our mobiles. One small fall out on 12 step free web site with another poster. And that was it in 2 years.
    The people round my area talked a lot about violence in there drinking. And they tried to make me think i was the same as them. I cant say i have never been violent, i have when your in a domestic violent situation or dealing with people who are very aggressive towards you ,long enough you hit back.
    But i’m not typically violent.I don’t get a drink in me to fight. i don’t go around starting fights. and i hate physical violence. I avoid it, and people who delibratley provoke me. I try everything before resorting to physical violence.But i would hit out in defence.
    They tried to make me think i was a gravely ill distrurbed person mentally ill and so there for not being honest. (One x sponsor told me i should go to the hospital and get signed in there and he kept saying to me at my back your crazy )
    I went to a pyciatirst one that works for the local drink drug agency and he said i was not crazy. The x sponsor not long after was admitted to the mental hospital. i later worked it out through these web sites.
    that x sponsor when drinking used to keep telling his wife that she was crazy. she wasn’t he was.
    a drunk abuser a sober abuser.
    mental and emotional abuse.
    PTSD is a pycological condition. not a mental condition. and i was much better from it. And it has almost gone since i left AA.
    I had a few panic attacks early on when i left triggered by People in AA or connected to it.And in one of those incidents i think anyone would have panicked.
    I have PTSD. the symptoms of this that i have, are a lot better than when i first went to AA.
    the symptoms i had because not everyone with PTSD gets the same symtoms.
    nightmares, extreme exahaustion, extreme and unwarranted guilt, sometimes i see things distorted like hullicinations the room closing in, flashbacks, shakeing , hyperventalating heart raceing and all my hair fell out.
    These symptoms have decressed almost to zero ,therapy helpd me . and time.
    But at no time dureing a panic attack did i ever tell a lie. PTSD didn’t make me violent or dishonest.AND IM NOT GRAVELY ILL WITH IT .
    The only good thing i got from the big book was somethings in it that i found just after i left AA.
    Things that were saying to me YOUR NOT AN ALCOHOLIC.
    I was going to burn my books tonight but im not im keeping them for refferance in order to debunk AA.then i will burn them.I was going to go out tonight but fell asleep.

  16. The mere fact the steps were born through a seance and ouija board… is where ppl need to begin looking and asking hard questions.. How can he even begin to make references to “God” when it was a seance that he accredits acquiring the inspired “steps”. The references in the program to those who failed did so because they didnt stay in AA and were born that way.. if so then why even bring up accountability to our choices.. key word being choices.. Fact is human beings are very complex and 1 formula cannot be the end all be all.. As I keep saying my recovery is now built on connection and honesty.. Surround yourselves with key ppl you can talk to about cravings and unresolved issues.. I found sitting around and hearing half a meeting filled with stories of dark acts in addiction.. made me crave.. a snake eating its tale and never ending.. how about focus on the NOW and how we can move forward to a healthier future without berating ourselves continually through such absolutes the program labels us as.. True recovery comes from connection, community, honesty, and acceptance and support. How can ppl move forward if they are always looking behind… Just my two bits.. Am I perfect? noooope.. what I am is accepting and willing to deal with underlying causes that I medicated away for so long..

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