File a Complaint

We have been receiving many complaints. Some are about sexual harassment, 13 stepping , which is the same thing, Assault, rape, financial scamming and now these horrible murders. No story is too small.

Many are leaving AA because of controlling sponsors and culty activity. Please know that you are not alone, but also we must speak out because, many are getting away with criminal activity and children and people are being harmed. AA is not above the Law and is not a secret society.

Please write your complaint here of where and what happened with what ever detail you fell like sharing. Be safe, call the police, make them file reports, keep good records and find out your rights. AA is sometimes living in the dark ages of the 1950’s when a simple sexual harassment was an every day occurrence. You can always contact us here @ and we will contact you off the public blog. ALso, you might want to use and alias as your name and not your real name when posting for your own safety.

Its against the law today in 2013. Also child abuse was also not on the books either at one time. It is today.

So speak up and speak out.

Be Sociable, Share!

877 thoughts on “File a Complaint

    • How do I get involved here in Los Angeles? I am so happy to see this website and I have also listened to the woman’s talk radio show regarding stopping 13 steppers. We really need an ongoing in person support group specifically for ex-steppers. I have been looking for one in LA for years and am surprised that there is none yet! This shows how insidious and deleterious AA has been in brainwashing an entire culture into believing lies when the organization is very nefarious and harmful at best.

      I am a psychotherapist who has spent a number of years in the rooms of 12 step. I no longer drink but I do not attend AA. I was miserable during most of those years and had myriad relapses as a sick response/reaction to the insanity of the program. When I finally woke up and realized what was going on in the rooms, I was shocked. I was also lost because my whole life was about AA. When I finally left in 2011, I lost all of my friends. I feel like I am starting over and also recovering from many years in a cult.

      Most recently I worked for a treatment center as a therapist whereby they claimed to be non 12 step based, yet sent the clients to 12 step meetings, read out of the big book, have an “introduction to 12 steps” group and employ mostly 12 steppers as therapists and techs. One therapist, who is still not licensed and on probation for a DUI three years ago (now a big 12 stepper), basically herds clients into the rooms and tells her own story to the clients and let’s them know she is an AA member. She also has sends the clients to her boyfriend who is a credit repair person, who then plays golf with these same clients. She texts clients after they leave the treatment center. She is no longer interested in being supervised because she now has all the answers as someone who has found the light in Bill Wilson’s cult. She egregiously violates MFT ethics in favor of proselytizing for AA and growing her own business as well as the business of her boyfriend.

      I would like to get involved as an ex-stepper and professional in the field of psychology who is damn sick of the insanity that is ubiquitously disseminated in the name of treating addiction. It’s a religious conversion program that has nothing to do with drinking, but rather, creates a sick lifetime dependency of mostly pathological people that prey on the vulnerabilities of others during low moments of their lives. I have seen way too many clients lost through the years because there are so few alternatives to AA that are large enough to attract more people.

      I think we should definitely create a support group for ex steppers. I would absolutely attend and would enjoy meeting others who have been brainwashed and later came to with a whole new set of issues unrelated to the drinking that brought me there in the first place. I enjoy being sober, do not believe in powerlessness nor a life time of sick support groups listening to stories about the days in which we used to recklessly imbibe. I finally am not afraid of jails, institutions or death. And, I finally stopped relapsing once I left the rooms for good! Maybe they will let me speak and share that story? “Hi everyone. I am an ex stepper. I finally quit relapsing when I left these miserable rooms and you crazy people. As a matter of fact, I need to go now before I have a craving. Oh, and don’t save me a seat – I won’t be needing it. Good bye!”

      • contact me at (dont mind the email, I began this work with dealing with the 13 stepping issue and it blew up to “its a cult” and I left May 2011.)

        E mail me first then, we can talk on the phone. I would love to start a group here. I tried on meet up but it didnt work. I plan on having another go at it. I called it an ex stepper meet up.

        I am making a documentary about it ALL!!!! I would love to meet up with a sane ex stepper in LA.

        • that is right we must all complane about the AA NA groups
          they are sexual perverts
          women are getting raped and the room is full of

          (snip) Natualu you can not use those words here.

        • I want to get involved in stopping this sick activity that’s being aloud in rooms of AA. I am recently going through a very sick situation that involved some very sick activity , with minors, new young girls,including my own daughters ,ect. This man even went public doing a sick half A** amends , just to get a pity party thrown. He even admitted to rape of 12 & 8 yr old girls. I can be reached at …. It’s way deeper than I care to share in email. Thanks & Bless you !

          • Marie- This is horrible. Has he already been arrested for the rape of these young girls? I have a passion for exposing the crimes against minors in AA and NA- and demanding change in how 12 step organizations handle minors and the vulnerable in and out of meetings.

            We will be glad to help in anyway we can. We discuss the crimes by AA members at also you can e-mail us at

            • I recently had a sponsor that threatened to fire me. Becuase I was unwilling to unsafely get off of Buprenorphine Maintenance. Isn’t that an outside issue? He is to have no opinions on such matters. It caused me feel paranoid and unsafe as several meetings. It was almost if he was sharing it with other ppl. I no longer feel comfortable in AA. And will not go to meetings he is at. Although I am an addict. I liked the structure. And the supposed acceptance. And the NA meetings are worse. They made me feel unwelcome and judged. This all occurred at 5925 OBrien in Nashville,TN. I said I would never go back there but said to myself, if I let admittedly sick people change my mind about my recovery. How good is my recovery. I recently went back to pick up my 30 days chip

                • HI Michael F> I would call NY AA Main Headquarters and complain that an AA members is playing Doctor. Outrageous- yet most AA and NA members have no idea how science has come along way . Have you looked into SMART REcovery meetings ?

                  • You see its all about the sponsor getting a power trip by putting hm/hr self above yours. Its a form of addiction. They are born of stupidity. They are unconstitutionally incapable of being honest.

        • anonymous- how does this relate to our site?

          Its a very sad situation …How many years did he spend in jail? Was he a stepper? Did she meet him in a meeting or a rehab?

      • Contact Mark Kern Phd – SMART RECOVERY is a good alternative – suggest you read THE REAL 13TH STEP about leaving AA.

      • b.s. b.s b.s. this chick is rasing funds and trying to make money for free. try going to a womens mtg. and stay out of open mtgs. and these broads are therapists… bullshit

      • I left AA this year and feel like I have lost all my friends. It is very mind-bending to hear all of the behaviors they consider acceptable, EXCEPT for being naive and vulnerable.

        • no stepper- they were never your friends. They are associates…like in a mob.

          There is a false sense of intimacy because of all the fake hugging , and telling inappropriate stories to strangers.

          You are not the only one. All of us when we leave…find out they are so full of shit. They are not your friend. You don’t site with a friend in metal chairs, and listen to the same 10 pp share for 3 minutes each. No cross talking , no discussing. Yea…..its a cult.

      • I think it is reprehensible that Bill Wilson had such a problem with religion yet created a religion uglier and more profane than all the others who went before it.

      • you as a therapist knows about all kinds of personality i am being harrassed by a group of old whitemen i am a black educated woman have 17 yrs. but the homegroup has clicks i feel like i am in high school i have went to good meetings i think people get codependent and stay and afraid of branching out living life on life terms. everyone you know talks a good game but i know they are not clean. when i was called a nigger. yesterday by a group member name french bob because he from france. he is a miserable jerk.! i let him know that. i do not know why these group of old men with less than 6 yrs clean time. are acting this way i do not date anyone. i know its the devil. lol . i have no problem with AA its some of these sick people who are miserable in recovery which i do not understand it. then again yes i do, they want to drink. they cant get their penis up anymore after alcohol and drug use. and they are miserable. so i do go to other meetings. but i think people should share on what they want, not feel intimadated by butchers in the homegroup. who want to take hostage. it seems like most of them on the same page . the women are docile do not speak up they act like they are scared. i am out spoken i know my stuff. someone has poisoned people against me i do not sugar coat nothing. i worked the clinical side of addiction. i would not be in a locked room with some of these creeps. i worked the legal side too. so that makes me, versatile in this dept. i feel sorry for newcomers who have to endure adults acting like kids, its sad. and yes i bring this up in a meeting. i only had one white guy that came to my rescue, not everyone is mean, but when you have those bossy. control freaks in the rooms they are not doing any 12 step work. yes they ran a lot of people out. not only that i am scared of the fact they are going to push the wrong person and the person is going to come back and get postal!. some how i feel this coming. do not know why because. most places have no security, but this place does it is on hospital grounds but security do not get there fast enough . stolen money from the plate. someone taken 400 dollors from the safe and i know it was one of the regulars that did it, and talk a good game. no doubt see, earth people as i called them are sick enough but when you have years of sobriety and you still act like a ass, something is wrong. take your meds, thats another thing, some are on double meds they do not know if they are coming or going. its sad.

        • I am so sorry you had to go through/ are going through all of that Paula.

          The racism and the prejudiced comments and slurs are just sometimes part of the sad reality that people of any African or Melanite heritage in America have to contend with—especially when we choose to be members of an organization like Alcoholics Anonymous with deep racist/prejudiced historical connections to the Nazis. SEE:

          The saddest thing I ever saw was the sight of a tall, kingly looking, dark, beautiful Black Man sitting on his ass proudly reciting verbatim text out of the BB in a room full of non-Blacks (besides me) looking at him with awe and adoration. He looked like a giant ‘traint’ seal to me…all he needed to do was balance the BB on his nose while reciting and they could have tossed peanuts at his stupid ass. Any idiot can blindly memorize text, but AA’s are very impressed by that shyt! 🙁

          And the fact that there is so much dysfunction, abuse, theft, cliques and BS are just more reasons on top of the more really DANGEROUS ones which prompt many to eventually leave AA.

          Hospitals, churches, club houses…those meetings can be hot beds of potential trouble. Anything can break out in those meetings:

          My degree is in counseling, but I am no therapist. I have recognized that many personality disorders run rampant in our society and people who migrate to AA membership and getting involved in all of the little pettiness there tend to be more apt to have some type of personality disorder. The one I notice being most prevalent to these people is Narcissistic Personality Disorder. They are the worst people to have to deal with ever…and AA is the perfect place for their abnormality to seem “normal” to them as they slither around seeking some newcomer to devour.


          Are you thinking of leaving AA?

          Watch ya back in that whatever you decide. I’m so glad I’m out. 🙂

      • I must attend AA mandatory meetings while in a VA transitional facility. I have no issues with D&A. I feel very alien to what is attempted to be pounded into me every day. I feel as though this is some kind of cult. I am under the thumb of the VA and I am trapped because of my status as a dis-abled homeless veteran. Is there anybody out there?

        • todd- Welcome! Yes we can help you . Email me directly at makeaasafer@gmail It is very cultish and religious and the VA can not force to to attend. It is against the 1 st amendment establishment clause. IF you are in California I have a civil rights attorney you can call. If not I will try to help as a lay person. I have a brochure I can mail to you as well. Once we email we can talk on the phone. There are many of us out here. You are not alone.
          Hang in…

          • Yes! Massive is 100% right and you have come to the right place. You are not alone. There are many of us out here and a part of this community for a multitude of different reasons (and not all were in AA or NA or even had a history of A and/or D use or over-use)…and as you can see from Massive’s response, WE CARE!

            She will hook you up with the right information. Please take advantage of it, be well, stay strong…

            Your feelings that you have been pushed into some kind of cult are 100% SPOT ON.

            You have been.

            Don’t let them disturb your valid thought-process by saying, “Some people even call us a cult…” with those put on innocent faces.

            Yes, some people do call them a cult–cause THEY ARE.

            Don’t let them say, “Some say that AA is ‘brain-washing’ but I decided that my brain needed cleaning!”

            They are manipulators who repeat the same old manipulating statements that were successfully used on them.

            I wish I was as keen as you are when I first sat at those tables.

            You have Rights.

            WELCOME TODD!

      • I love so many people there but I am waking up and seeing how badly this cult has damaged me. I have just told a couple of friends that i have been CONSIDERING attending smart recovery in addition to aa/ca. They have done the whole fear based thing that I will get drunk and die thing. It does no good to point out cult logic to cult members. I feel like someone at Jonestown trying to shout “Don’t drink the Kool Aid.” I am glad that this site exists.

        • aa is hurting- Yea I mentioned attending Smart the last few months. I didn’t tell them I was leaving till my very last meeting. Using the Cult word FREAKS them out. I never really used it till I was gone for money months.

          Im glad you found us. There are so many of us. Think of how many years people were feeling this way but there were no bogs for decades. .Now we are communicating and even the ANTI AA blogs are growing leaps and bounds over the past few months.

          Good luck with your exit and remember…no one but you , knows the best way to leave. Listen to your gut. And yes they are WRONG….you are not gonna die cause you leave their stupid 1935 religious made up BS pods of meetings ….

          • i left aa, and im so much happier and healthier…. they were all so fake…… now that i dont go, people in the rooms are saying i should be in jail and they hope i go. most of them are making up stories about me drinking and whatever else….. my sobriety is so important to me, i dont want to go back to drinking and using…..but i also will not go back to aa……. they are two faced. i dont want judged based on my sobriety date, i dont want hit on by every old geezer in the rooms…… and when i stand up for myself im a dry drunk? F them……… they have no life and now they are running my name in the mud….. i went to a lot of meetings for seven years…… i never put someone down for relapsing or talked about them, I thought i had to be there to stay alive……… so untrue. you can do the steps, which help….. with a therapist or trusted friend, I still read some of the books and the aa book, but I will not allow myself to be treated like that ever again…….

      • Clancy of the pacific group came to the AA log cabin on Robertson blvd. in west Hollywood to speak from a podium a few years ago and I was shocked. He started making disapproving comments on our appearances and I asked the person beside what is this all about….this is suppose to be a spiritual program…does he have the right insult people like a know -it- all HITLER.The guy beside me said this individual is a head of a AA cult and has the clout to say what ever he wants to say for he has gotten a lot of people sober including a lot of celebrities like Dick Vandike.All I can say is I go to the spiritual AA program and not to be bothered be an obvious prejudiced worm of the past century.

        • HI John- Thanks for blogging here. WOW— that’s really outrageous. So because a person helps a celebrity they get a pass to be verbally abusive to strangers? Yea He is a really weird cat. I met him in Hawaii in 1976 when he was a speaker at a ROUND Up on the North Shore that I attended. I got up and left the meeting. He is very involved with the Downtown mission and dresses hopeless people up in suits…then makes them go to that group. Then they feel indebted to him and that group . Super sick cult group.

          SO you still go? You are in LA …yes?

      • Well said, The days of having crazy people who have longer between drinks take up any of my days thinking and reasoning are over. It served its purpose in the beginning but anything else I needed I sure was not going to find in this nut house.

      • I understand your views from some unbelievable experience I my self had and really spent the last 17 yrs trying to have many things recognized by others going on in programs.

        My reason also Is for many are very kind in my spaces
        And genuinely well, nice people who really these crazy other things, behaviors, and absolutely insane ideas hurt more then all.
        Waste their sincerity, care
        And genuine regard, time
        And beyond and above care for others w utterly normal and appropriate behavior, even ones w other off issues.
        I encountered these unbelievably insane groups and memb ers really within groups.
        Most other members had no idea these things were even happening as truly deceptive and extremely abusive other members who in this case
        We’re so engaged by the most
        Unwell and truly sick thinking and emotions trying to force
        People to be subjected to truly unbelievable things
        And lying to other members

        I had a fortunate relation to law friends through my then mate of a very long time relationship.
        I was set up to be assaulted and became briefly unwell
        Then found myself w
        These bizarre members
        Amongst other well and lovely memb ers..
        These whacko people were trying to use the ideas of very religious sects extreme ones( who I oddly friended many in the religion really who these memb ers were also taking extreme misuse of to be abusive then blaming these religious people as it would been impossible to know otherwise)
        From my ex mate and friends I followed these nuts in groups who were trying to force members without telling the regular memb ers
        To relate by insane things as nationalities, insisting they can onlu know those of the same one whether they liked the people or not.
        They were trying to force ladies to physically relate to men like it or not in bizarre manners to these men
        And whom were losers
        And believed they’d later sleep with these particular ladies…
        Even if met men they liked and liked them from own out side friends and home areas
        They proceeded to harass
        And then lie to the friends of these men to suggest they
        We’re obsessed w based on their nationality
        And must be with a different one even if they loved or really liked the Person and they did in return.

        I as I followed much of was that gang stalking type of
        Behavior if you disagreed
        They’d all in unison shun that member together
        With no real ability not to react automatically from not recognizing was religious cult like techniques using.
        Wrongly to make even worse.

        They each believed they had a special new spirit better then all other members created through nationality
        In the form of a spirit.
        The men few believed
        Then would sleep w lady
        After such she was crazily
        Subjected to
        Who had their nationality.

        If you refused the same thing then they lied
        And still had been recently

        W no care to other members being sober or with people liked
        For weren’t the right nationality.
        As if this is normal in America in a group in the middle of suburban communities.
        It’s much worse even..
        This is a factual story and seems unseen in rooms
        And they add lies or stories about the new member
        To other regular memb ers
        To be able to create this

        Never once caring about the persons life
        Job sobriety or family.
        I watched from room to room, wrote it. Filmed it
        Showed my friends
        And did by want to leave
        Or remove aa
        This from all the nice men ladies otherwise also in it.

        There s much more to this story.
        It’s unbelievable

          • I also wanted to include these off the wall members, along with very unwell sort of friends often show up in jobs or disrupt a staff in a hospital
            W no ability
            To regard privacy

            People you dont even know
            Bothering you during your work while completely engrossed by staff, friends
            From this bizarre obsessive deeply
            Unsober bunch
            With no ability to be ladies or men
            With no clue being private
            Respecting your own privacy
            And caring about your job
            Choosing only
            You like
            As partner
            They feel its
            Their place
            To be in middle
            Of your partner
            W very inappropriate
            Belief to disrupt
            Men and women
            From happy relationships
            As two normal people
            Alone by things you have in common
            And laughing
            And out going

            And try constantly to force other men instead of whom you like
            During your job
            In my case at a
            Hospital during
            Busy unit
            To i began almost muttering to myself drom shock
            By the bizarro
            Tp a medical
            Staff in New York.

            And constantly try
            To relate ladies in a bizarre way
            By that crazy
            Nationality stuff
            When American ee are
            And by nature fun etc we only relate

            Alone man snd lady ever privately we like
            I want to mail you the rest
            And if you can
            Note publicly
            Without including me
            Id be thrilled actually

            Can you send me an email address
            Ill send you very much information.

            These off memb ers bother other members for being Christian American archdiocese people or otherwise
            Misused that faith other one i mentioned to be inappropriate

            Cost money did
            Disrupted landlord
            Who even member
            No care
            Lied to him.

            Harass whenever meet people you’d like
            W 1000 percent common
            Love would or like very much

            Let men who assaulted others have say over man even worked same place
            Lost them
            Money personally

            Prevented them from paying it

            Stop happy unions

    • How do I get involved here in Los Angeles? I am so happy to see this website and I have also listened to the woman’s talk radio show regarding stopping 13 steppers. We really need an ongoing in person support group specifically for ex-steppers. I have been looking for one in LA for years and am surprised that there is none yet! This shows how insidious and deleterious AA has been in brainwashing an entire culture into believing lies when the organization is very nefarious and harmful at best.

      I am a psychotherapist who has spent a number of years in the rooms of 12 step. I no longer drink but I do not attend AA. I was miserable during most of those years and had myriad relapses as a sick response/reaction to the insanity of the program. When I finally woke up and realized what was going on in the rooms, I was shocked. I was also lost because my whole life was about AA. When I finally left in 2011, I lost all of my friends. I feel like I am starting over and also recovering from many years in a cult.

      I would like to get involved as an ex-stepper and professional in the field of psychology who is damn sick of the insanity that is ubiquitously disseminated in the name of treating addiction. It’s a religious conversion program that has nothing to do with drinking, but rather, creates a sick lifetime dependency of mostly pathological people that prey on the vulnerabilities of others during low moments of their lives. I have seen way too many clients lost through the years because there are so few alternatives to AA that are large enough to attract more people.

      I think we should definitely create a support group for ex steppers. I would absolutely attend and would enjoy meeting others who have been brainwashed and later came to with a whole new set of issues unrelated to the drinking that brought me there in the first place. I enjoy being sober, do not believe in powerlessness nor a life time of sick support groups listening to stories about the days in which we used to recklessly imbibe. I finally am not afraid of jails, institutions or death. And, I finally stopped relapsing once I left the rooms for good! Maybe they will let me speak and share that story? “Hi everyone. I am an ex stepper. I finally quit relapsing when I left these miserable rooms and you crazy people. As a matter of fact, I need to go now before I have a craving. Oh, and don’t save me a seat – I won’t be needing it. Good bye!”

      • I’m out of AA just two weeks. I was in AA for many years, and now I am very isolated and lonely because i built my life around AA. I realise I never liked AA and they knew it. I feel I was too sane and smart to comply with their fanatical ideology. I believe AA was they worst thing that ever happened to me. I have become deeply committed to buddhism – that helps greatly. It’s a painful tranisition (lvng AA). I would like to meet similar people in ny.

        • Hi Patrick,

          Yes Leaving AA I was very sad and mad. Sad not for leaving but that I had wasted years with people who weren’t really my friends.

          Are you in the city? I have started a meet up ex stepper group in LA but the first one didnt work. I plan to do another one. . There is a new community of bloggers on Many of us were bloggers on . If you go there you will find over 4000 posts on why pp leave AA or NA. You are not alone. But I felt so sad too. I also felt really free.

          fee free to tell your story here on the Why I left AA thread or email me at . How many years did you go?

        • Welcome Patrick! I went through the same “let down” and anger feelings when I left after more than 20 years. But my life has already improved noticeably. Hang in there and tell us your stories- I found that venting here REALLY helps.

        • you know aa is a stepping stone to move on not stay stuck . it did work for you. you transitioned . to buddhism a good thing. so do not beat yourself up. i have many of day of leaving. but i know i will eventually because of the sick dogs that lurk around causing chaos, i do not like that i am a spirtual person. i met good honest folk in the rooms but most of the creeps overshadow these people and most do not do meeting regularly because the know the program. and they do not like the bullshit. i feel ya. so god is telling me its time to transition,. which i have, but i need to really put my foot down, that is all . when you speak of god, they get upset in the rooms see, when i see crap like that its scary i have to be around like minded people.

      • I am a Licensed Clinical Social who has been in private practice for 20 years. My AA attendance began in July 2011 after being treated for pneumonia and one symptom of “heart failure”. I was told that alcohol consumption was the culprit. I was very obedient and attended 180 meetings in 90 days! Throughout my participation I became very much aware of the fact that it is “there way or no way”. I am an independent thinker and do not take very well to falling into the belief system of folks who according to my observations are emotionally and mentally unbalanced. Their traits seem to fit int the dependent personality category. “Whatever my sponsor tells, I will do it”. This is total crap! Some of the sponsors are sicker than many of the newcomers. During my sixteen months of attendance I have left meetings with questions about the “sanity” of a large number of the members. I would arrive in a happy mood but would leave in a disappointed and sometimes critical and angry mood. Gossip is widespread. There are members who do not like me, and pass their attitude to new folks who believe them.
        I have felt that I did not fit into AA from the beginning. I do not like their terminology like “the rooms”, “baffling”,”balked”, “powerful”, “higher power” and many more. These folks look at the Big Book as The Holy Bible! That book is very much out of date! It is sickening to read some of the “out of date” chapters.
        A meeting today was the crowning blow. Gossip prevailed and a member told a lie about me. When a person puts another down, it is due to his own insecurity and low self esteem.
        Now as Forest Gump said: “That is all I got to say about that”.
        So in short, the cult like nature and the dysfunction of the
        organization has made it clear that I do not fit or belong there. I have friends at my church who love and appreciate for who I am and are not judgemental if I don’t “jump the same rope” they do. We all have our differences, and I could not fit into the AA mould.

        • Hi Zack! What a story! The request for people to do confessions to virtual strangers is a very dangerous and invading practice. How could there not be a TON of gossip, when one of the core beliefs is ” you are as sick as your secrets”. Plus many are there because they are mandated by the courts for crimes. So sponsors and others know so much dirt on everyone it is just plain unhealthy. I think some actually get addicted to AA because they thrive off the new horror stories and weekly gossip.

          AA asks more out of you than even a therapist. They love to play clergy and actually put down therapist. Many feel superior to trained professionals. Of course they are many 12 stepping mental health providers.

          I can only imagine the emotional pain of a member when a sponsor who know s all of their secrets turns on them and gossips. That knife in the back must be agonizing. I do not doubt members have taken their own lives over feeling betrayed by people they thought they could trust in AA or NA.

          • Anti- Denial,

            What you said above about the gossip and such was the beginning of the end for me. After about 3 years in the program, I began to notice all the people that I had seen come through the doors, only a handful were still there. Then I began to notice these people that were still there. I had become fairly close to a few of them. All of them seemed to thrive on gossip and everyone else’s misfortunes. That’s when I began to realize that these people had made the program the focal point of their lives. In fact, they had become the program. I came to understand that these people had stopped using chemicals but were using the program as their new drug. They basically had traded one escape mechanism for another one. I noticed that they weren’t very healthy mentally, the program was their life and they had a very dismal existence but they were clean. It seemed as though that lived to spread gossip and to take the focus off of their own lives. This is when I started questioning everything, as I knew I didn’t want to become them. Today, I realize that these people are very small, very narrow minded, a basically still sick. I left 2 years ago and for me this was a very sound decision. It astonishes me that once you leave the program these people cut off ALL ties with us, which is okay with me. But if you are not an active cult member they want nothing to do with you. It is nice just to vent sometimes.

            • It helps to vent. I have just had an excruciatingly painful reaction to a vaccination. Extreme sensitivity to touch and an inability to raise or use my left arm. I went to one of my usual meetings after virtually no sleep. A long term sober regular who I cannot stand was the only person there for about 10mins so I told her about it. She replied that I must have needed it and also blamed my big bag. This is an aa attitude I find intolerable-you must have needed it and blame you for it. My bag is a rucksack so the bulk of it’s weight is carried on my hips, not my back and shoulders. And I must have needed it is totally ridiculous. I’ve never known anything so painful. I avoid people who think like that in aa. It gets applied to things like my dad’s suicide and me suffering a serious attack many years ago, when I wasn’t drunk. The pain is easing and I’ve been in touch with my doctor.

          • Frank,

            I hear ya. It is like an extenstion of highschool.
            Also when AA is actually stating that people coming into AA are some of the sickest most selfish people around, how would you EXPECT vulnerable unstable people to deny a natural human tendency to not gossip? I have found most people in society can’t keep a secret or confidence. So how in the world would Bill W. think it was a good idea to play clergy, and with that literally playing with people’s lives?

            I think it shows how perverted Bill W et al were to even start these confessionals. i suspect it came from their own pleasure of hearing people’s ‘sexual inventories’ and every skeleton in their closet. It is just sick.

            In AA’s teen literature they tell teens to confess their sexual inventories as well. Now we are talking about highschool age kids who are very into gossip. No wonder there is sexual abuse of minors and others in AA and NA when sponsors and others are literally getting off on these stories. Many have a thirst for it that is so incredibly unhealthy for all involved.

        • Hi Zack- sorry for such a late response but I was dealing with some major stuff when you posted. How are you doing? There are many of us that have connected through the blogs. I agree with all the crazy cult stuff going on in AA.

          PLease feel free to blog along with your own journey.

      • I have went to NA for many years I started when I was 18 years old I was married and had a husband what was not a addict, he came with me to the meetings,
        I got a sponcer what told me to leave him,
        then the sponcer started to put a relationship on me.
        we started going together later on she was jelious of me. and then I went back to using,
        then I meet a older man what I was living with and he made me pregnet and i have a baby after that he left and i was a lone going back to drinking and using
        now i am 32 and i am all alone and now i attend a christian group
        I think that NA is just a bunch of sex addicts

      • I am very strongly with you on taking action to get this very sad and sick situation in the AA rooms stopped . I am currently going through a very sick situation in the rooms . My contact email maybe we could exchange phone # – sincerely D

      • I found such nice members
        But in midst of such off members with such crazy behavior…

        I still go but have been watching and sad by how many nice are so unaware often these other truly unerll people create…

        I had these nuts trying to force me by nationality to only know like it or not and insist date or be with people I don’t like at all or relate to nothing say or do..

        Then lie to nice people I got along or from own friends
        And then insist I be with not like by nationality not even my own.

        I am telling truth I filmed this and am adopted so I keep that our of group

        But I’m of many nationalities so I screwed this crazy stuff for whatever nut thought some use yo sobriety

        W never care about sobriety
        It’s real story

    • Hi. I just stumbled upon your website and I love it.

      Are you holding meetings or anything beyond the Internet? I am in Denver, any activities here?

      I just want to say this:

      I was in AA for about 18 months and gathered a few months of sobriety and then drank, put together 10 consecutive months and then drank again. I’ve been “somewhat” managing my drinking since last July.

      I’m not saying I don’t have a problem, I do sometimes open a bottle of Chardonnay and well – finish it, but in AA I was told I was a liar, cheater and manipulator and a lousy drunk.

      Eh? OK – Those statements could not be farther from who I am.
      I am single, I live alone and have been very honest with friends and family about my “over drinking.”

      After drinking June 2 of 2012, I later spoke to my sponsor who told me and I quote “I think you should look at quitting your job so you can spend more time focusing on this program and your sobriety.”
      Really? WTF?
      How irresponsible is that?
      This advice was given to me from other AA members as well. I was told to walk away from my job and attend 3 or 4 meetings per day.
      So in AA, they believe it would be better for a member’s recovery to be unemployed and unable to make their house payment, and possibly end up homeless? I was told if that happened I could surely find someone in the program who would let me live with them.
      If that isn’t a cult trying to control behavior then I don’t know what is.

      First – It wasn’t my job that caused me to drink again. It was my high school reunion.
      Secondly – It was 2 glasses of wine and I didn’t drink again for another 35 days.
      Third – Regardless of how much or how little, is that appropriate advice? Esp in this economy.

      I could go on an on… There sooo much more.

      No. I do not believe in AA.
      I do not believe I am powerless.
      In fact, just the opposite.
      2013 will be my year to get this under control; my way!

      • mara- Hi and Welcome!

        They are nuts. I agree with all you say here in your post. We have a thread called Moderation VS Abstinence. anon is posting his successful moderate consumption of alcohol beverages after leaving AA after 17 years of abtinence. He is using Moderation Management and Hams Harm Reduction for alcohol techniques and books. A great book I am reading is called TAKE CONTROL NOW. His name is Dr Marc Kerns. You can listen to an episode where I just recently interviewed him.

        Also Donna Cornett has a great book

        To read your words….“I think you should look at quitting your job so you can spend more time focusing on this program and your sobriety.”
        Really? WTF?

        OMFG they are really insane. 3-4 meetings a day?
        In the old days they went to one meeting a week. For years that is all that was available. The 90 meetings came out of rehab influencing AA rather then AA influencing rehab.

        I am very happy to see you are smarter then them.

        Sometimes a group of us skype with no video and its fun. We dont call it a meeting …..we hate using AA terminology LOL 🙂

        I will skype with you. Don’t believe a thing they say. I was in AA for 36 years and left almost 2 years ago in early May. But if you drink more wine then you want it just means you need to learn some moderation techniques. Its your life. Its your body. AA has become a cult full of control freaks who rely on their “years” even if they are failures in their carerr and have no money, to make themselves in Guru’s.

        There was a guy named “DIRTY JACK” in west LA. What a freak he was. I heard he beat sober people while naked to repent for their sins. There was another woman who told me some stories as I was uncovering the sexual predatory stuff and then she told me that. We were both hit on when we were young in AA but taking your clothes off and allowing someone to beat you with whips. WTF. I hope eventually someone will tell me this story in my film. if you wanna connect with some of us off the anonymous blogs. Also is a really good ex stepper site with ex AA members there.

        • Thanks so much!
          I will look into the literature and I would love to SKYPE… LOL.. Just need to figure out how to do that. I have a MaCBOOK, so I”m sure it’s possible.

          Glad you do not use AA terminology.

          Be well.

            • I can’t stand the aa literature. It is so boring and old fashioned.

              The word rape is in one of the steps which shows up how long ago it was written. I’m co-sec of a meeting having done this before. There is a much younger than me woman there who is a few years sober and thinks she is running aa. I feel constantly criticized by her while taking the meeting, something I didn’t feel previous times I was co-sec as she wasn’t there or was very new to the meeting. She has written out a great long script for the co-sec to read out which I have changed slightly, I’ve had a pathetic battle with her regarding wanting the window open as I feel ill when it is closed and I find her obsession with appearing cool totally stupid.

              Her preoccupations all seem totally irrelevant to me. Apparently she even has an aa facebook page inwhich she shows off her fancy lifestyle and her perfect partner. I told her I think of her every time I walk past top shop however I didn’t say it was because she reminds me of their dummies. I really resent being criticized by an empty headed silly little girl.

        • i do not know some of us best leave alcohol alone seriously. i seen others have changed, their drinking habits but its not for everyone.

          • We are all totally different and have abused alcohol to different levels and also experienced dependency at different levels…..then along comes a lunatic conman like Bill. W that says we’re all the same!! – Power to the ex AA movement!

            • Something that really annoys me is the steps especially step 4. One is told one must do it or one will drink again. What proof is there of this, I wonder. One constantly hears of people getting in a dreadful state when doing it and sometimes drinking as a result. It is as if it is some sort of ritual one must go through to be a full member of the gang. It anyone thinks I am going to tell someone in aa about my painful passed experiences and things I feel guilty about they have another think coming. A trained therapist with boundaries and confidentiality is where I have done what would be called step 4, not an amataur I may fall out with and who may gossip, and who would probably tell me to blame myself for crimes done to me. There is a long term sober woman in one of my meetings who is deaf on one side. She keeps asking me what I’ve said when I’m not even talking to her. She also looks as if she has got severe anorexia. The energy emanating from her makes me want to be as far away from her as possible and have as little contact with her as possible. And there is a young vain woman at another meeting who seems to think she is in charge, despite me being co-sec. She is obsessed with her image and being cool, whatever that means. She looks totally out of proportion to me. I’m told she has a facebook page inwhich she shows off her cool lifestyle and handsome partner which all seems superficial and irrelevant to me. If I make any mistakes being co-sec I have to put up with her negative reaction. It isn’t her meeting. She alays reminds me of a horse for some reason.

      • Welcome Mara!

        I have only been on here for about a month after being suddenly fired by my sponsor. I thought it was the worst when she did it because it was so painful due to my year and a half of conditioning, programming and attempted indoctrination. I was encouraged and required by her and my grand sponsor (my sponsor’s sponsor) to depend on her and tell her my every thought and action. I was to leave out NOTHING because she would say that was lying by omission. One day without warning she decided that it was too much. She claimed to be drained and told me to get another sponsor after I relapsed AGAIN. I was DEVASTATED. I honestly believe she wanted me to kill myself. They like to destroy those who will not totally fall in line and then use one of their darker, but favored sayings: Some Must Die So That Others May Live!

        You see? They would like nothing better than to have you or me fail, drop off and die so that they can point to us and use us to scare others saying, “See! Just look at her. She is dead because she would not follow our simple Program!”

        It’s a tactic very similar to what the slavers did to African American slaves who they beat or hung for all to see. By torturing, sacrificing and/or killing one slave, they were able to instill the fear of deathly consequences in all of the others.

        You See?

        But they lie. AA is not only not the ONLY way, it is not even the best way. In fact, for some people, like me, it does much more harm than good. I will tell people the Truth About AA for the rest of my life…and I would rather die buck-necked in the cold hard gutter than to ever try to comply with their utter ridiculous non-sense from hell ever again! (Excuse, me. I am still at that stage of Recovery from Recovery wherein I kinda like to rant… I’ve heard it gets better…SMILE)

        Our connections here help one to see that everything they do and say in AA is all just a part of their End Game…which ultimately is to Control You mind, body and soul while presenting you as another powerless puppet to The God of Alcohol which you are free to see as anything you like (or “understand”) from a rock, to a light bulb, to a great being in the sky, to a spirit, to the “tables”, to a roach, to your sponsor…oh just whatever the hell you want to understand your higher power to be just as long as you OBEY AA… They don’t care anything about, GOD…just the existence of AA.

        It is ironic for me to hear that they tried to make you quit your job. They kept trying to make me get a regular j-o-b. My being an independent contractor with an Ivy League education was not good enough for them.

        I was told I needed to learn how to be humble and obedient by taking a job even as a cashier at Burger King or some such place. They said that it was only my ego that kept me from doing as instructed.

        But it was not my ego. It is the fact that I have already done what they advise when I was an teenager and in my 20’s when I divorced my abusive ex husband and had to start all over with 3 children. I took any damned job I could get and went to college.

        Now my children are grown and I have several degrees, but they kept pushing me to get some ass-wipe job in order to prove that I was “willing to go to any lengths!” (I’d like to see what lengths my danned foot might get to up their ignorant arses!)

        And now I hear that they pressured you to quit your job?! What evil, controlling, lying jackals from the bowels of hell. They will just tell you anything for the sake of making you blindly prove that you will obey them. They have traded their addiction to alcohol for a stronger addiction: POWER! Imagine being able to make other grown people call you “Sponsor” (a.k.a. Master) and trick them into feeling that they must do whatever you “suggest” (command) or they will drink and DIE. How very, very intoxicating for the wickedly perverse!

        Phluck them Mara. You do not need them to find your way to a balanced, healthy life. The more distance and time you get away from their zombie-stepford-wife azzes, the more you come back into yourself. It is traumatic, lonely and sometimes a challenge to combat all the rat juice they sprinkled on your head, but stay connected here and to the other sites mentioned. Hold on. You will begin to feel your inner POWER kick in. You still have it…or you would not be here, reading this.






        You will notice that there monkey-shines dull with time and intelligent communication with others of like mind will become a Comfort and a Joy as you claim your own Path to Wellness with or without alcohol. It is your Choice. It is not baffling. It is not cunning. It is not out doing pushups in the parking lot waiting for you. It is just a substance that you can decide and develop your behavior around to fit the life that you choose to live.

        I have chosen not to drink while giving SMART a chance. I do not choose this out of guilt or fear or any external forces controlling me. I choose this because it is the choice that works for me right now. And if I ever change my mind—I’ll change it. That’s it. It is my life…to live as I choose.

        You and I are in the same boat with the drinking. I tried Moderation but it was too soon after getting out of AA. I need to build at least a year of Abstinence for myself before I am ready to be successful with Moderation IF I still want to do that after a year. I do not know yet. And that’s okay.

        I am going to try SMART Recovery very soon as I have heard very positive things about it. And refreshingly, they allow and encourage one to actually THINK and utilize her Rational Mind which in AA as we know is a potentially Deadly Sin… So, leave them all wherever they are in their huddled masses chanting in unison:

        “We Think Not! We Think Not! We Think Not!”

        Oh my oh my…what stupid azz holes…I cannot believe I ever listen to those insane fruit-loops….oh I am about to bust my azz w/ laughter! What in the world was wrong w/ me? Oh my friggin GOODNESS!!!


        Anyway, welcome back to YOU Mara!
        Here’s a nice video for ya:

        • to me having 17 yrs in this program of aa i find you have to do whats best for you, i heard all kinds of madness i might have said some shit myself, i never tell people quit your job divorce your wife etc. you do not do that. people got to go through what they have to go through, and yes some people get it and some do not. i have pride. i am not working for minimum wage, i told my career counselor that the other day hell i am 55 yrs of f that!!. but when you feel comfortable in your own skin you know.. you really know. but i did see a lot of people transition to christian 12 step groups i attended a church ,. and at least the people act like they h ave some sense it sad . i find people who have went to church got sober . so everyone is different,. i do not tell people oh dont get religious. some people yes have to walk through a program first, but you will find your nitch, i thinki spelled that right.. lol. so i beg to differ. when you do not think outside the box. your screwed. to me. i do not believe in co depedency on one thing, i feel it harms people. and i see a lot of people fellowship go to dinner ., games and not changing, they are the losers. because their boring lives. are boring. they do not do anything without the fellowship of AA and you cannot live that way, now not bashing aa its a good program but its the people in some of these cases. thats all.

      • Any AA member who tells you to quit your job is wrong!! Run for the hills. That’s very cultish. See, these are the idiots who don’t use common sense. I’m getting closer to leaving. It’s not right what these people are telling people. The reason why Bill W went through a 10
        Year depression is he wanted to be AAs poster boy. I know the history. Sheesh .

    • I have been going to AA NA for years, I have seen it is nothing but a antichristian group. it just seems to support sodomites and adulters, I think that they should be expose by the 99 percent

        • Wow found some people without a big book stuck up their butts,been around AA for several years,seem so isolated from the real world.Just gave a lady a ride that had been beaten several times by her NA boyfriend,have went threw many situations in AA that I never encountered before AA.

          • Welcome Rod! I found this blog just over a month ago after my sponsor of almost 2 years suddenly decided to “fire” me for relapsing AGAIN. It was so painful because she and her sponsor had groomed me to depend on them so much that I almost did not know how to get along without them. She went from being what I thought was one of the nicest, kindest human beings I have ever met to an angry, vile-tongued demon. I was instructed upon my firing to “do as instructed,” get another sponsor, read the BB and “get back to basics”… I decided rather to cut all AA ties and get my ass OUTTA THERE…
            It is the BEST decision I have made in almost two years! I have gotten lots of support, encouragement and reciprocal sharing of actual ideas, thoughts and rational observation. No one here is afraid to THINK. It is so refreshing… As far as people with BB’s stuck up their butts… Well, I have a HUGE copy of the BB and one tiny copy of it…I may use them to wipe my arse with if the economy collapses, or Armageddon hits or something… LOL

            When I get ready to endure the thought of going to anybody’s “meetings” again, it will be to a SMART Recovery group wherein “brains” are allowed and one does not need a Retard-Handler (a.k.a. sponsor)

            Keep sharing…

          • well i tell the women in AA that becareful they think your anti male. and shit. but guess what yeah i am i seen to much crap with men, i know real men from predators and jerk offs. but they think because he has 5 years or more he is all mighty those men are some sick f–ckers. they do not like me because i graduated from street smart university.

        • Massive can Clancy and his backyard cult pacific group be stopped. ? That’s who I wAnt to
          See go down. And telling people to get off meds? That’s where NY central
          Office should be held accountable! I know I said I wasn’t gonna blog but I’m getting mad as hell at these cults. Isn’t there just safe AA and seperate cults ? And when I was At Birch in Hawthorne racial tensions were boil
          Ing. That’s why I left. It was ghetto AA. Reverse racism.

          • b.

            yes they can, we need some woman who were violated by him to come forward and talk in my film. Anonymously or in the light.

      • I’ve seen people doing the main share/chair applauded for admitting to splitting a marriage up so they could be with another cult member. It really makes your blood run cold and it’s normally middle aged men preying on younger women.
        I’m a man with urges and needs like any man but those scumbags in AA really made me sick!

        • I was married to A 25 year aa member. cheating and lying ended the relationship. AA reminded me of a sober neighborhood bar where people hook up and people seem to support and understand the dishonest behavior. I wish my x could have been honest and let me know he had fallen out of love and let me move on with my life years ago. I married into a family of aa members and they have done the same to their partners. lack of empathy runs in the family. I am happier and stronger and have my self respect back. some AA people seem to be honest with their hurtful behavior only when it benefits them. I think of AA as MM meetings. Me Me Meetings. I do wish people luck with their sobriety however I wish AA didn’t hold so many secrets from me. I live in the same community and see these people. it was rather humiliating after I found out many people in the program new about my husbands cheating and kept his secrets from me . Oh well water under the bridge and I guess they have their own secrets

            • Yup! I wish there was a program that focused on mental health issues that led to addictive behavior instead of a program that surrounds you with alcholics that believe they were powerless. This is my last post. My advice to people “stay away from aa and get professional help for your depression”

          • Hi Joan, Thanks for posting. I appreciate your honesty and believe stories like yours need to be told; they will validate the suffering and warn the newcomers. Librarian

    • I feel like my mind is melting because I went to AA on a mostly daily basis for almost 5 years and just stopped going because I had been victimized just one time too many. I can’t even describe what happened except to say I had to call the cops on a fucking grown ass 53 year old woman who found me in the cult and was fucking crazy and abusive and its never a good sign when the cops show up and have to tell your roommate/landlord basic realities. The cops told me I did nothing wrong at all in anyway and it was very validating because as we all know AA would tell me “what was your part.” There are so many predators in AA. I joined when I was 21 and had no one and nothing except a Dad who got sober in the cult. I am in such pain and so confused all though I am sure AA is a cult, I am goddamn sure about that. So many rapists and child abusers use AA to find victims, and no one on the outside of this cult really gets this for the most part. One of the worst feelings I have right now is that I participated so heavily in it and trusted it so much and exposed myself and made myself so vunerable. I had no fucking idea what I was doing. I am so glad I’ve gotten older and have become more of an adult and don’t feel like I need to help or save anyone anymore and don’t have to tell a room full of strangers my fucking private information anymore. I feel so bad and so used. And I feel guilty for spreading such bullshit myself.

      • hahaha- woa…now thats got a serious emotion there, this post of yours.

        Im so sorry…I relate in some ways. But here we are…some 9,000 posts here and you are lucky to not be an old lady. Right?

        I stayed way too long too.

        My story is here. Read WHY I LEFT AA stories and click on there …Its bad. I know its bad. AA is really bad and the courts need to stop sending anyone there.

        May I ask what city you are in?

        you can write me or just blog away. You are not along in how you think or feel. AA is F**KED UP big time. WANNA help?

      • Hahaha, I totally understand. You’re not alone. AA has hurt so many ppl and are continuing to do so. Be happy ur out. Seek therapy if u need to. I’ve had too it was just too much. It took me awhile to find one that can see how AA is a breeding ground for predators and controlling, abusive women and men. I’m really sorry AA harmed u. I would contact massive and file a complaint with her. Since there is absolutely no where to go in AA to do it.

      • Dwayne,
        god loved me so much he helped me leave AA for good.
        i havent had a drink for must be over a week i had 2 beers.
        How lovely they tasted, and i enjoyed every drop.
        hope you keep sober for the rest of your life

        • HAHAHAH LOL OMG I love this. Sally you rock. Yea Dwayne…god loves me so much he opened my eyes to what a shit hole full of crap AA is when I brought a family member to a meeting in 2008. A YP meeting filled with no young people. Disgusting older creepy men.

          Now I am normal. Thank you very much.

    • AA is nothing more than a cult that brainwashes it victims. When you bring new ideas to the meetings they chase you out of AA like you are trying to destroy the cult. People who said they were your friends wind up stabbing you in the back when you stand up for yourself to a bully in the meetings. I am no victim but a survivor of the AA cult. This is a warning to anyone thinking of going to AA. I was hurt and betrayed by AA but i can bounce back quickly from this kind of repulsive behavior. Cults prey the weak. Because i have a sense of individually i was cast out of AA. I am glad this happened because i never felt more free than to say “i am no longer part of this cult known as AA”.

    • Its not just women…
      I left Na and Aa a year ago. I had been addicted to alcohol and pain killers for 20 years. I had honestly never heard of 12 step programs. I was looking for a rehab and ended up calling 211 after being turned away from multiple rehabs. I got a call back from s guy telling me to meet him at a hospital in the next town. To my surprise I was at a nap meeting not a rehab. The feeling that these people cared for me was overwhelming. After the meeting the gentleman gave me another number to call for out patient. I was hopeful for the first time in 20 years. I went to iop and was prescribed Suboxone ( I won’t get into that part too much but as of may 1st I’m a year removed from that). For the first time in my life I felt good and welcomed. I was unemployed and got a sponsor 90 in 90 but really I was going to 12 meetings a week plus three iop sessions. Meanwhile my wife is getting mad cause I’m still never home. Three months in I’m the gsr going to area services. Thats when it got weird. I find out that I’m not clean due to being in Suboxone taking as prescribed while other old timers are on benzos and opiods and are clean. I drop it and continue on. Now I’m leaning closer to as cause they don’t bring that up. I find some great friends and we all go to tons of meetings and are doing the “work”. One of our friends disappears and won’t answer the phone. I ask my sponsor what to do. He says we’ll I guess he didn’t want it bad enough. Jails institution or death. Me being the helper I am I go to his house alwith another friend. We find him almost dead. He was drunk and passed out badly on floor causing no circulation to one arm and one leg. He ends up losing both. Meanwhile I get yelled at by the group for playing god. I’m at three years in the program at this point. My friend Keith took his life six months later the day he got out of the hospital. I’m destroyed but determined to keep doing the work. I then see another old friend just back from California. He says he’s been sober for five years. He has all these speaker tapes that we listen to hard line aa Chris r and Earl hightower are our favorite. I start noticing him hanging out with really new women and he’s always got a problem financially saying his trust fund is on it’s way. Around Xmas that year he borrows $300 off me to buy Christmas presents for his child. I gladly loan my friend money. I don’t see him around and he doesn’t answer calls. I got to a meeting with Billy and he’s pissed cause Mike borrowed $500 for Xmas presents. I’m like huh that’s weird. When I get to the meeting seven girls ask me if I had seen Mike. Long story short he ripped us all off for like 6000. He shows up Midway through the meeting and I raise my hand and start telling the story of what happened. The secretary cuts me off and says that’s an outside issue. Im like ok. So I wait till end of meeting and talk to the service group. They defend him saying he’s not well. I say well I’ll talk to the authorities. They tell me that would be breaking anonymity and that I should look at my part and make my amends. Needless to say we all went to the police immediately. I began receiving death threats from him. 80 texts a day. Finally he goes t jail. I am shunned from the group. Meanwhile I’m also figuring out tapering off. My sponsor tells everyone I’ve been high on Suboxone for 4 years. I am double shunned. I was on 2 mgs for four years and definitely wasn’t high. I take my recovery seriously. That was the last time I went to a 12 step group. No one called no one cared. It made me stronger though to realize they were trying to make me their family (like Manson,) and not be with my real family. I haven’t taken a drink or abused a substance since June 8, 2012. I’m happier out of addictive behavior which also included an addiction to the cult of aa and na. Thank you for having this place. I’m glad I found it.

      • Dear Keith- Hi and welcome ! WOW this is some story and I am sorry this happened to you . We have a FACEBOOK group as well. DEPROGRAMMING From AA or any 12 step group . Pm ME and let me know if you want to join. I also have a facebook group called simply Leaving AA. I have many stories like these as well – it is so sad. May I ask what city you are in ?

        You are not alone – and I am so glad you went to the police.

        Warmest wishes and nice to be free —– 🙂

    • I’ve been going to aa for over 17yrs and been sober from my 1st meeting. I detest the way women are told to look for their part in rape and domestic violence-these things are crimes. One frequently sees women struggle with their sponsor around this. It is an outside issues and aa claims to have no opinions on outside issues. Women are also told to forgive their abuser-this is a private thing and not something you do because your sponsor tells you to. Also I have recently had problems with a woman giving me unasked for medical advice-she is a retired doctor. She says she did this as I asked her medical advice about something-I never did. I’ve been a bit cool with her. She has a present for me. She has relapsed after many years of sobriety and can’t get back on tract and was really sneery about my 17yrs. And, of course, everyone is on her side, including people who I thought were friends. I’m just trying to create a boundary re unasked for medical advice and I don’t want gifts from her-I gave the last one, an easter egg, to a homeless woman. Other complaint re the ridiculous way women’s meetings have to admit men, how when I had problems that required the police when a man I’d seen in a few meetings moved into the house next door and the result was threatening behaviour from him both in inside and outside the meeting numerous women who I thought were friends literally turned their backs and I had to stop all local meetings and go to meetings in another area to feel safe. I am currently co-sec at my home group, something I have done twice before. It is ok being co-sec however you also have to cope with tea, treasuser, in fact any other service position that falls short. Everyone is full of how supportive they’ll be when you take on the position however that support disappears very quickly. Last week I sat at the front with a severe headache that got worse as the meeting progresses and I don’t think I’ve ever felt so alone in aa. I’d been expected to help out both tea and treasurer before even starting plus I’ve got some gift from the unasked for medical advice women to dread. She said she forgot it and asked if I’d be at another meeting we both go to-I said I didn’t know as I don’t. I said “don’t give me things” which she ignored. I feel she plays mind games and several mutual friends seem to be on her side. I’ve been in aa for 17yrs and I feel totally friendless and alone. I know if I share this I’ll be told it is all my fault, as seems to be one of aa standard responses. I’m trying to find something to do as well as aa. I’m 65.

      • HI ANNE AND WELCOME ! Sounds like alot of emotional abuse. Maybe it is time to take a break from AA meetings. Have you considered you have spent enough time thereand are ready to move on with your life before you are too old to enjoy those golden years as YOU want to spend them? Engaging yoru critical thinking is always a good thing too .

        Dont take abuse from anyone.

        Its not your fault. You have dont nothing wrong. Why not take back your power.

      • Just want to add I’ve had problems in al anon too and am appalled at how they were dealt with. I have stopped going after being a regular at a local meeting for 8yrs. I don’t like people touching me and said this frequently. Then a woman who was fairly new bashed me on my forearm while saying something to me. It really hurt as she caught a sensitive spot. I snapped-I didn’t like this woman anyway. I said angrily “why do you always have to stand so close. Don’t touch me I’m always telling you not to.” We then sat through the meeting ignoring each other with one person between us. When I got home I phoned a longterm regular who I thought was a friend. She said she’d never known anything like it in all her years in al anon so I said I’d stop going and put the phone down. I phoned her a few months later and said I may return which she discouraged as I had crossed the road to avoid another fairly new person and it sees she had told them about this. The reason I crossed the road was this woman lives very near me and a previous time I bumped into her she had referred to several things I’d mentioned when I last shared and said “al anon” loudly throughout the conversation. I have horrible nosey neighbours who I do not want knowing I go to al anon. I also don’t want them knowing I know this woman as I do not like her. She has been going to al anon for over 20yrs and has moved to this area and I find her peculiar-too much al anon! I don’t need al anon outside the meetings. So I was being civil and short in the meetings and ignored her outside the meetings. There was also the issue of cross sharing at the meeting which it seemed I could not object to when done to me. Plus this longterm regular seems to think I should be able to like everyone. She rode roughshod over my explanations and feelings totally taking the other side in both cases. I’d have thought being 50.50 would have been more fair. I went to another nearby al anon meeting for a while however the woman in the next street is sometimes there and she doesn’t seem to be able to get the message that I don’t want her in my life. I saw her in a cafe a while ago with a regular I used to have friendly chats with if I met her outside the meeting-she made a big thing of siding with the neighbour and ignoring me. So I have stopped going to al anon. I find the side taking appalling. I said to another regular at the other meeting that a woman often there always did a nasty laugh when I shared something painful and was told this was her way of identifying with me!! The other local al anon meeting in this area has a a man who was accused of rape at it. He is also in aa and, of course, no-one other than me and a few others believed her. I believed her as the police wanted her to proceed with the prosecution when most women are told there isn’t enough evidence. This is another reason I don’t go to aa in this area. It doesn’t feel safe with someone like him being totally acceptable. I walked out when he walked in once and,of course, got nasty looks all round. It is as if people in aa think they are immune from the laws of society. An environment full of men who are violent and women who are told to blame themselves for the violent things men do to them. It seems very, very unsafe to me. I only go to aa meetings in other areas and most of them are women’s meetings. Plus I do 2 a week. The rest of the time I do other things.

        • I also had a woman who I thought was a friend for many years in aa. She decided she was my temporary sponsor when she wanted to know who I’d seen at al anon, according to her so being meant I could tell her. She seemed obsessed with helping people however she could run back to her husband whenever her one of her coterie of lame ducks stood up to her or became too much. She turned into someone who resembled my mum, a person who I had issues with. Everyone I discussed this with could see why this would happen except her. We fell out over something staggeringly insensitive she said about rape. And the long term regular in aa who totally sides with the other side was the worst thing about that. Friendships I had prior to aa and al anon didn’t have nasty endings. Another women in aa started meeting me for coffee pre-meeting. She’d dump all her s— on me and I’d be exhausted before I even got to the meeting. She’d be there waiting for me.I ended our association and she turned really nasty. It was like being bullied at school.

    • Plus I am 65 and have had to cope with plenty of 13 stepping over the years. I mainly go to women’s meetings in london as the nearby women’s meeting lets men in which I think it totally ridiculous with the problems so many women in aa have to cope with from men in aa. I go to mixed meetigs when I go away and this is usually ok however my most recent trip away I had to cope with a man who seemed unable to take “no” for an answer. I’m extremely careful telling no-one I am on my own or where I am staying and lying if need be re the latter. As I said in my previous post I am looking for something to do as well as aa. I tried na which I found worse and felt even more unsafe. Al anon seems even worse than aa re the tide turning. I’ve joined the national trust and tried age uk. I’ll keep trying till I find something that suits me.

    • Plus you get sponsors who seem to think long standing family problems can be sorted out with a few amends letters. My sister’s response to an amends letter was to tell me not to write to her again and my mum was totally perplexed by hers! Then you get another sponsor saying to repeat the process!! They seem to be unaware that in families we all have out roles.

      • I had some bad experiences like that with a well meaning sponsor years ago. I later used a real PhD who really helped me as well. Thanks for posting.

        • Thanks for the replies. I have started spending more time on things I do outside aa which helps. The woman with the gift continues to say she can’t find it, has forgotten it etc. I’ve told her I’d rather she didn’t give me a gift-she wanted to know why. I said it would blur the boundaries. Why can’t she just take no for an answer. It’ll be going straight in the 1st rubbish bin I find after the meetings if it ever materializes as I don’t want something reminding me of her between meetings. I also never mention anything remotely medical when she is present as I don’t want her unasked for medical advice. I have told my doctor what i think of aa.
          Another woman at meetings I attend has brought some old copies of grapevine and keeps trying to push them on us all. I got there last week and only she was there. She was putting an old copy of grapevine on every chair. I told her I didn’t want one and she wanted to know why. I told her I’d read loads early on and didn’t want any more. She persisted with “this is grapevine from america”. Why can’t people in aa take “no” for an answer. I felt like saying to her that I didn’t want one of her dirty old copies of grapevine, that I found them boring as I find all aa literature and if I took one it would go straight in the 1st rubbish bin I found after the meeting. She is one of those people who has little in their life other than aa and she gives me a real incentive to build up my life outside aa. She doesn’t seem to live in the real world. She always approaching me at meetings. She gives me the creeps and I want to tell her to f— off”. Plus things I hear regarding rape and domestic violence continue to appall me-comments regarding blaming the woman from a woman who has never been raped, a woman blaming herself during her chair-I try to let it go and tell myself it is an outside issue. My son is am alcoholic and he won’t go to aa-I don’t blame him. He is trying other things.

          • HI – I hate those grapevines as well – Maybe you can move on and not go eventually- I know there is SMART in the UK but I have heard its taken over by steppers. If this true? We have some facebook groups that you may like with more activity then here.

    • I am trying to get out of AA and my husband if he wants to too. I don’t like it there are too many sexual predators. That and the uneasy feeling not to have feelings. I can’t bring myself to go anymore. It makes me feel sick.

      • HI Ariadne- Welcome ! So what is holding you back from walking away? . If AA were just a nice support group you would not be giving it another thought.

        Imagine you were in a support group for cancer a real disease. When you were done you would just stop going. This is the Problem with AA /NA — I would google Deprogramming From AA or any cult. You can listen to the podcast called SAFE RECOVERY on Blog talk radio for help with the deprogramming.

        We also have FACEBOOK groups but are not as easy to remain anonymous – god how I hate that word LOL …but not impossible .

    • I’m writing this to try and get it out. There is a woman in my main meetings who I cannot stand. She makes my skin crawl. After previous problems with her I tried getting on with her as I decided she is a lonely old woman-all her friends etc have died and like my mum and uncle she has become very alone in her old age. The way she zoomed in as response to my friendliness really put me off and I found her even more unbearable. She has been sober a very long time and someone told me she thinks she is bill w. She thinks rape and other forms of abuse are amusing and blames the recipient-I refuse to call myself a victim and feel survivor describes me far better. I think such things are an outside issue which aa claims to have no opinion on-if only this were true! She comes far to close when she speaks to you and really invades one’s space-this I cannot stand. She is a real example of the need to have a good life outside aa too. She seems totally peculiar to me. I’ve gone to other meetings where she is not present which has helped-most people seems to understand what detesting someone in the meetings is like.

    • I just want to tell someone somewhere about this. I am co-sec at my home group. The other co-sec’s year came to an end so she told me by text that a date was her last day as co-sec. Someone who is soon going away and has been co-sec at the meeting before has been able to do it 3 times but after that I am going to have to find a new co-sec to cover the weeks I don’t do it. This is as well as having to find a replacement for me when my year ends. And they all sit like lemons every time I announce it. I’m 66, travel for over 2hrs by bus to get to the meeting and may be needing knee surgery, the latter I have not shared as there is a retired dr at the meeting who has already behaved as if she is my dr re weight loss. I’ve told her she is not my dr but it has put me off sharing anything medical. There is another gross woman at the meeting who goes on about drs being drug pushers and all sorts of aa crap so I’m saying nothing about the pain I am in re my knee. Of course I could just not go the interveening weeks if no-one comes forward. If I can’t go because of surgery they’ll have to find someone else. And I’m not surprised people don’t want to be co-sec if this is what happens. The other co-sec just stopping like that and leaving it all to me makes me feel very angry but of course one is not supposed to feel angry or resentful in aa. I may just stop going.

    • I find it helpful to write these things down. I was at my home group yesterday, early, and was sitting chatting to one other early person. I wasn’t putting out the chairs as my knees is very painful and I am prone to sciatica and lower back pain which putting out the chairs is especially bad for. She was also older and I thought I heard her say she had health issues re putting out chairs as well. Then the meeting’s control freak appeared. She became really verbally aggressive when I said she could explain how the chairs were arranged saying she’d be outiside and I should explain. So I did and said a horseshoe shape. This she got angry about and said it was another way-I’d always wondered how the friendly horseshoe shape decided on in a conscience meeting to make the feel more relaxed had become an odd arrangement of straight bits. I just let her get on with it when I saw she was even willing to have an argument about it. If having the room set up so we can easily glare at each other is so important to her let her get on with it. She also likes the window to be closed so we all get hot, sleepy and sometimes pour with sweat-I’ve just let her get on with that too. She expects the meeting to be run to her script too, a script inwhich announcements is missed out and newcomers are defined as in their 1st year, which is over half the meeting. Then during the meeting I was looking in her direction to see who a latecomer was and she made a nasty sneering noise at me. I wasn’t looking at her.I can see she was probably a really nasty bully at school and still is a really nasty bully and so is best avoided as much as possible. I am also having to find a new co-sec to replace my co-sec and am going to have to do the same when my time ends-this is making me feel exhausted as I announce it every week and everyone sits there like lemons saying nothing, and I really don’t need being responsible for setting up as well, or arguments about it with someone I see as a silly vain appearance obsessed little girl who has had 2 boob jobs that make her look top heavy. She even has a social media page inwhich she shows off her lifestyle-who gives a fuck, I think. And then another regular who gives me the creeps stared right into my face while talking to me, really up close. Seeing her that close made me feel sick. She is someone I have not given my number as I get a really bad feeling about her. I’ve not shared about my knee as this woman is a retired doctor and has already given me unasked for medical advice. She made a totally insensitive comment about rape too, but then it is always women who have never been raped that say things like she said. I am so glad she has never been my doctor! I have an appointment with my doc next week. I am also thinking of stopping going to that meeting. I’m expected to do almost everything plus I get no respect for this at all. If I stop going people will have to step up or the meeting will cease to exist.

    • An update.I shared about my co-sec home group problems in 2 other meetings and in the 1st got the “kick you when you are down” response from a woman. I’m going to refuse to do the intervening weeks even if it involves not going plus I don’t rule out walking out if the vain young woman gets nasty again. At least I now know where the odd chair arrangement comes from. Plus the woman who gets right in my face-she is the type who if you complain does it more. I’m avoiding going in the ladies after the meeting as she is at her worst in there-unasked for medical advice. I am really glad she was never my doctor!

    • I’m just going to unload this. I’ve been sober and going to aa for nearly 18yrs. 2 women are greatly annoying me at the moment. One was sober for well over a decade and then started drinking again and has struggled ever since. She is also married to a man in aa and this has turned sour. She is a retired doctor and seems unable to stop dispensing unasked for medical advice. I think this is because the rest of her life is such a mess this is the only way she is able to feel important. I don’t find her medical advice at all helpful. She never knows the full story too as I don’t feel comfortable telling her private stuff plus I dread to think how much worse she’d get if I did. I’m just so glad she has never been my doctor. I get a really bad feeling about her and think she is bitter because she picked up. And the other woman has been sober a very long time. She has said things like we allow ourselves to be abused and then become abusers. I find this highly offensive and one has to sit and put up with her saying such things. She is also prone to dishing out unasked for advice. She looks as if she has got anorexia and someone told me she thinks she is bill w. I wish she’d just keep her distance but she keeps trying to get back in. I am civil and then ignore her as much as possible. There is a 3rd woman who so reminds me of bullying in a private girls school it is unbelievable.

      • hi ANNE – that part about Abused become abusers is not true. Call her on it. In your share perhaps. Also she has no business giving advice to anyone – I would say it outloud.

    • I just want to write down my recent experience. I’ve been going to aa for over 18yrs, have been sober all that time and have had many ups and downs. I do 2 women’s meetings a week , not in my home town as I’ve had serious problems with people at meetings in my home town and the meetings don’t feel anonymous. My main complaint about aa is that there is nowhere within aa that one can complain about another member of aa, or at least that is my experience. A woman who is at both my main meetings most weeks is currently bullying me. I said I had no friends and she cross shared that she is a friend. She is not what I would call a friend. She constantly zooms in with a put down whenever I talk with her. She was sober for many years and then picked up and has struggled ever since, a story one often hears. She has a very posh voice, it a retired doctor and is married to a man she met in aa who sounds gross. She looks like a corpse with bright red lipstick and is very opinionated at the meetings. My instincts have always flashed a red light regarding her so I have not given her my number-I don’t want her put downs outside the meetings as well. I dread to think what she was like as a doctor and am very glad I have never come across her in that role although I suspect bullying the people she worked with was her thing. She really throws her weight around in meeting and behaves as if she has been sober for decades when she can never tell you exactly how long she has been sober. I never ask but hear her replies to people who do ask. She’ll say something like “about 2 months”. She really gives me the creeps and I feel a horrible energy emanating from her. There is nobody I can talk about this to in aa and there is no point in talking to her as she’ll just zoom in with one of her put downs. She looks as if she is dying in front of me. I wish she’s just leave me alone. She is probably just jealous that I am sober and she isn’t, bullies me because she can and is doing it because of things to do with her, not me. She has sponsored people before she picked up and that fills me with horror. One can sense a bitterness in her. And another woman who is at both my main meetings most weeks is awful and vile. This one has been sober for decades and I see her as a very good warning of the need to have lots going on outside aa. She looks severely anorexic-she never goes to the doctor and makes a huge thing of this. I always think “one look at the emaciated state of you and you’d be hospitalized”. She sits saying things like “If I allow myself to be abused I then become an abuser” which, having suffered a lot of abuse, I find highly offensive. I’ve heard it said that this woman thinks she is bill w. Again I get a really negative energy from her and keep away as much as possible. If I see she is the only person waiting outside to get in the meeting room I hide round a corner and wait for others to arrive as I avoid being alone with her. Both these women are obviously very, very sick and they are in aa free to affect people with their sickness with no-one curbing them and nowhere one can talk about either of them. I’m just unloading as there seems to be nowhere else I can unload. I’m trying to build up my life outside aa more.

      • AA was inspired by the mental state bill wilson experience when he was hallucinating on the drug belladonna used during his detox. Thus AA literature is full of delusional dehumanizing slogans that mislead
        people to aemulate the same delusional mental and emotional state as the founding Epiphany that billw experienced – which was in reality was a drug induced delusional state – not an authentic experience or awakening.

        It is “”normal”” for Psychopaths to compulsively repeat delusional dehumanizing slogans – as a compulsive defense mechanism against healthy people who express comprehensive psychological and emotional integrity.

        AA is an incubator for the psycho paths that you are describing. Some are more warped and disturbing than others. They will never admit that they are warped. They will blame you for feeling fisturbed by their alarming tactics forever. They will likely never truly recover no matter how long they stay off drugs. Following the delusion state of psychology that AA/BillW promotes actually stops them from getting healthy. This should disturb you and make you feel unsafe – because AA at its core is unsafe psychology.

        AA is not healthy – at its very core beliefs/delusions. Again, AA is based on a drug deluded state of mind. and feelings. Bill W was not able to know the difference.

        Long term AA followers demonstrate daily that they also don’t know what healthy psychology is – when they repeat AA’s delusional literature and so called spiritual principles.

        AA’s abnormal delusional psychological principles and drug induced false-spiritual-awakening was and always will be based on the drug deluded state of mind of Bill Wilson in detox – while he was administered the hypnotic hallucinogenic drug – belladonna – with increasing dosage every hour until his mouth was dry and his pupils dilated.

        Dr Silkworth knew he made wilson hullucinate and did not tell him the truth. AA is based on a spiritual awakening LIE,

      • AA’s psychological principles are based on a drug delusion lie. Bill W was hallucinating on belladonna in detox and mistakenly velieved he had great revelations – which is a common delusion experienced by people when they hallucinate. BillW was not ableto discern the difference. and he went wild prreaching his delusional experience as if it was a real and healthy mental state that he expected the AA steps to recreate. The steps were never the reason that billw had his false delusional drug awakening elation in detox.

        Thus – Its no wonder that AA is not safe healthy comprehensive emotional and psychological treatment or a method just suggested by amateurs. Its no wonder that Psychopaths feel at home and normal with AA’s abnormal psychology and sloganeering. Psychopaths are not in touch with their own authentic healthy emotions and they will compulsively react with unconscious defense mechanisms to discredit people who express comprehensive healthy psychology. and They will believe they are helping you. and they will create an upside down crazy making atmosphere that feels safe to them. The only thing you can do is leave. AA is a open door psyche ward. You will never get away from AA’s crazy delusional psychology because it is at the core of AA literature. only psychopaths don’t recognize that bill wilson was delusional. Unfortunately There are a also lot of psychopaths in public society who blindly support AA because many people in our society also do not know what healthy psychology is.

        • I totally agree re aa being sick. I cannot stand the aa literature. You’d have thought more modern healthy versions would have been written by now. One of my 2 weekly meetings feels so unhealthy I am going to stop going. I shall find things outside aa to do. If I feel worse at the end of a meeting than I did at the start it is a sign to stop going. I felt like saying “I am so sick of your stupid steps” while one was being read a few weeks ago. There is another woman often there who always talks total aa speak as I have heard it called-I get a really bad feeling from her too. I find meetings feeling creepy tends to be worse in smaller meetings as the sicker elements have more ability to dominate.

          • HI Jenny – thanks for posting – we have great groups on FACEBOOK – leaving AA is one and Deprogramming from AA or any 21 step group is another – please – join us – SMART RECOVERY is a nice option to check out – although after many years just moving on t REAL life is a good option – Best – to you !

    • I’m just unloading-this seems the be the only place I can. A woman constantly undermines me at my 2 main meetings. The most recent time concerns talking about washing clothes. I mentioned using the launderette when my machine is broken and she was straight back with how dirty this is as everyone’s loads are washed together-her husband owns a launderette. I told her it was not a service wash type of launderette and I did my load on it’s own in one of the machines. Then I said I had jumpers dry cleaned and she was straight back at me on this saying about washing them and wrapping them in a towel to dry, as if I couldn’t possible know about and have tried that. She also doesn’t know that when I buy clothes I always look at the washing instructions to see if they can be easily washed in my home machine with most of my other stuff and that I rarely wear jumpers because of the expense of dry cleaning, tending to save them for special occasions so they are not dry cleaned that often. This keeps them looking good as new unlike the by hand wrap in a towel method which always spoils the wool. She has also told me privately in the ladies that I must stabilize my weight or I’ll get osteoporosis as if she is my doctor-she is a retired doctor-and I could not possibly know this. I told her subsequently that she is not my doctor and didn’t add “thank god”. It is constant put downs. After a long period of sobriety she has become a serial relapser. I get a horrible energy off her and she gives me the creeps. She doesn’t have my phone number so I don’t have to put up with her between meetings. I am thinking of finding another meeting to replace one of my 2 main meetings so I’ll only get her at the bigger meeting where she is always busy showing off how rich she and her family are and only talks to be if a better offer isn’t there. I have thought she has been drunk on or drugs in meetings quite a few times. She also goes on about how gross her husband who she met in aa is but does nothing about it. She looks like a corpse wearing bright red lipstick. I don’t want her anywhere near me. One can feel her sickness emanating out of every pore. I respect my instincts regarding people. If I fall out with her she will make my meetings that she is at very unpleasant for me so I need coping strategies to minimize her impact. I’m already using a few but I need some more.

    • not to complain or give you extra work but if possible i wish there could be an edit function included in the new web site redesign you are working on. preferably if possible there are some special edit functions that automatically become disabled after 30 minutes to suppress endless re-editing abuses.

  1. is the person that made this disabled Veteran homeless again after 3 years of homelessness! She is a AA nazi, and holds the power of what veteran does or does not remain homeless based on her affiliation with AA. We have a Commander on said:

    Homeless Veterans against AA!

    • OK- DId you file a report with the State Attorney General against her and the VA? ALso filing a report against the AA Central office with the State Attorney General in NY would be good too.

      ALso a certified letter with a complaint to Ny GSO would be a good idea. I have the links and all the info you need to do it on this site.

  2. Hello everyone,
    I’m glad to see this site- I believe I met some of you over at ST. I have left AA, had my name “stricken from the records” lol. I feel much relief but don’t know where to start with regrouping, deprogramming etc. I feel like I’ve been involved in a 4 year long mind F**k and don’t have anyone to talk to about it with. Trying to shake the remaining icky feelings but it’s hard. Anyway, I have a story but not much time right now but I will be back.

    • Welcome! banana 🙂 Welcome! I miss ST soooo much . I talked to ftg tonight. I am so happy I have made some new anti AA friends there and from stop13stepinaa blog. It has been 8 months since I went in a gave my rant speech -goodbye. But it was very cathartic. The rat wheel discussion left me that very day! But please chat it up here with other ex steppers and I am finding exposeaa to be good and to have alot of ex ST folks there too.

  3. Banana,

    Welcome back !!!! I remember you. I dont have much time to respond tonight and have a busy week but I want you to know that leaving AA was a very wise move on your part. It’s difficult when you are trying to come to terms with the “mind fuck” that you have endured. I left 14 months and I become more aware/enlightened as time goes by of the damage AA was causing to my identity. It’s very rewarding and full filling and makes me proud of the strength I had to leave. Be patient because it really does take time. I had a light go on today, thinking about how the atmosphere there had me questioning every feeling I had or reaction to a situation. Happy, Sad, Angry, confused (normal feelings) were criticized and analyzed by completely incompetent, dis-functional people. Soon you find yourself questioning the good person you are. CRAZY!
    Please be kind to yourself. You have been through a lot.

  4. i came to aa in 1974 in brooklyn rogers group i was a bum aa help me get sober aa is good but i moved to beacon ny 85% are sentenced from the corts if you spit you are made to go to aa for 2 yrs the rooms are filled with po and cops and rats who at a droup of a hat will testify that you shared this the cort flunkies are told if thay hear anything rat and tell it is dog eat dog the bad thing is aa is for it the county is saving money not giving care the treament center are billing the state i love aa but i will never step foot in dutchess county brooklyn aa rocks

      • Massive,

        Thanks for saying that. I read Mike’s comment when I got home from work and thought about asking but anymore; if someone is not clear about what there trying to say. Im suspicios and I have better things to do. At least the trolls are clear about their bull shit. I can handle that.

        Mike s

        I apologize if I read you the wrong way but the problem is you were not clear.

  5. I’m an ex-AA member. I always thought it was pretty revealing that the only people I’ve known who went to jail for sex crimes were AA members among the step thumping “winners” crowd. There were several, so it was not an isolated incident. I guess that you find creeps everywhere, but for some reason I’ve only met them “in the rooms.”

    My other AA related complaint has to do with a good friend of mine who died last year. He was a pretty bad drug addict who just couldn’t get off the prescriptions. I hadn’t been to AA in a couple years at the time of his death, and I believe it had been at least a few months for him. I had spent a good amount of time with him toward the end of his life, even though I wasn’t using. He was just a good friend who needed a friend, you know? I didn’t lecture him on his use, since he had been dealing with it and had heard it all before I had first thought about quitting or moderating. He was pretty honest with me at the time, and though I never approved of it and did express my concern, I mostly just tried to be a friend to him.

    Anyway, It really bugged me that so many AA members showed up at his funeral to shake their heads over his urn. None of them, of course, ever went to see him when he wasn’t crawling back into the rooms again, certainly not in the last few months of his life. One guy I hadn’t seen in a while told me his sponsor told him to go as he had just crawled back into the rooms himself. He proceeded to express his concern for me, someone who hadn’t drank or used drugs in about eight years (the last two outside of AA). Something about that whole scenario just really bugged me.

  6. Matt- Welcome.

    Sorry to hear this story about your friend. Yes the AA’s I agree have lost their way. AA is filled with Sexual Predators both sent from the courts and many just know how easy prey AA woman are. It’s a disgrace.

    Again I am sorry about your friend.

  7. Hi I have been sober in AA for many years and it has helped me immensely ,but I agree with you completely and wholeheartedly about the issues that are presented here. Too often newcomers are left to fend for themselves and no one comes to protect them from the predators. I have been very guilty of not standing up to the men I saw taking advantage of vulnerable people. I now have enough time in the rooms and understand the real damage that these people can do to do more to intervene. And will do my best to do so more often.

    As far as all the court appointed people who come to AA in the area I am in this is very rare sight for papers to be signed. However, I don’t see why a group cannot make a decision that says they won’t sign court documents.Then those who just go to meetings to get their papers signed won’t go to those meetings.

    I also don’t like the idea that in AA we only talk about alcohol. And I am a real alcoholic who barely experimented with drugs…but I feel that everyone is done a disservice when we cannot tell all our story.

    I think that your site does a good service bringing up the failings in many aa groups and communities. And that any warning that can be given to people is good. As the saying goes “What do you have when you sober up a horse thief – A sober horse thief.
    However, I do think that there is a lot of confusion in the public about the difference between an aa group, an aa clubhouse, paid recovery places and the AA organization. Since AA has no opinion in outside issues it chooses not to defend itself. I believe that this is a great decision which has enabled it to survive for so long but sometime the humble among us are very difficult to find and appreciate

    What I love most in AA is that it not a rigid organization…when I needed someone to direct my every move there were people there willing to spend time with me and then when I got better there were people there to help guide me to new places and let me learn.

    I will forever be grateful that when I walked into my first meeting Don spotted me as a newcomer and walked me over to Helen who gave me a phone number and told me to call her and I called. and in those phone calls she talked about her cats and shared with me some great wisdom about AA mainly that its not for everyone…lots of people get sober other ways, lots of people don’t need to stop drinking while for me it has become a way of life and my life I don’t think that I have recommended that anyone I know go to AA or had a problem with drinking since probably my first 6 months in AA. And in those first six months I was probably a real jerk about AA and how wonderful and perfect it was. I am sorry if I crossed your paths then.

    • see at my homegroup they have both. talk about drugs and alcohol. but the addicts are the one that is causing the chaos or the dual addicted!!. i never encounter problems in aa until i started going to this AA group in towson md. called Agape. ran so many good people away, because its a rich white neigborhood with high bottom addicts and drunks and they think they have arrived . they are homophobic and racist. not all members but some and opinionated. estate brats. i called them if mom and dad did not die,. they be homeless stupid f–cks i said what kind of recovery is this,? i never seen anything like it, yes some aa do seem cultish i stay away form wolves in sheep clothing.

  8. Isabel- Welcome. By your post I would say you are not “leaving AA” but found your way here somehow.

    I wont argue with you… most of your post I agree with, except for …

    What I love most in AA is that it not a rigid organization…

    I think it is. The NY Employees are insanely ridged and closed minded and they think they are better then the rest. I over heard some old timer Board members bashing Native Americans while the new trustee was talking at PRASSA last year in Hawaii. The Pacific Trustee is an amazing guy and a Native AMerican. I got up and walked away from them I was so offended.

    A Board member tried to get them to address predatory behavior and the paid employees and believe me some of them make seriously good bucks in the $395,000 range to run AA, refused to go to the fellowship and ask them what they were finding.

    It would have been so easy to do. A simple letter to every GSR and Intergroup, requesting that they all go to their meetings and discuss the problem at every group level, at every area level and compile the info and come up with s a strategy. Ask each city to have a workshop. Wow, what a concept. Enter into the 2000’s and stop acting like it’s 1952.

    But nope! Incredible resistance and stupidity we were faced with.

    Murder, rape, sexual assault are going on and sex offenders and violent criminals are being sent to AA by Judges.

    They in NY all know this as AA Headquarters is very tied to the judicial , penal and rehab world. AA sells $6, 000,000 of its income to them while only $6,000,000 comes from donations SO AA is not self supporting.

    We on the blogs have learned the truth. I being on the inside for years learned the truth. ANd that was that AA members in “service” were the worst pieces of s####t that I had ever seen in all my 36 years in AA. Minus a few like Paul C and maybe 20 others. Well maybe a few more then that LOL…

    They are controlled and run by fear. The most closed minded people I have ever met. But in the end I am glad they were this way because it drove me out of AA.

    Now I am free and I see AA as a cult and I know the truth about it all.
    My home group handled it pretty fantastically. That group was unique.

    I still am not sure why such an AA lover as yourself is here on the Leaving AA site but as long long as you aren’t trolling and being disruptive to a newcomer to the Anti AA blogging world I will let it be. Take care.

    • Hi Massive,

      Ummm… the follwing comment left me a bit unclear as to what it means:

      “AA sells $6, 000,000 of its income to them while only $6,000,000 comes from donations SO AA is not self supporting.”

      How does AA national “sell” its income to courts etc? Do you mean that revenue is created by selling literature or are services or other assets involved?

      • yuk-the total gross income is about $12,000,000 although the year with the international convention it was much higher.

        6 million comes in from the sale of books NOT FROM AA members , but from selling books to prisons, rehabs, treatment centers etc. When was the last time you saw a newcomer or AA member pull out their wallet and cash to buy that ancient nonsense of a BB. LOL In over 25 years I have not seen someone buy a big book. Groups buy them and give them away.

  9. isabel-Hi there. You stated a member told you “she talked about her cats and shared with me some great wisdom about AA mainly that its not for everyone…lots of people get sober other ways, lots of people don’t need to stop drinking…….”

    I have to say I find this hard to believe. This is not how AA members typically introduce new members to AA. Stating that AA is not for everyone and people get sober in other ways? From an AA member?

    You really needed someone to direct your every move?

    AA Org not Rigid? Maybe an actual group could be loosy goose and all over the map, but the AA Org-I dont think so.

  10. My 6-year relationship with a recovering alcoholic recently ended as a result of manipulation and control within a gay recovery group. Once a fun, seemingly honest and caring man, my former partner evolved to a narcissistic, dishonest, and confused being. Over the course of the last two years of our relationship, his recovery group and sponsor dictated his interactions with me (to the extent that the sponsor was texting me on his behalf…because the ex wasn’t using the exact words the sponsor had instructed). Within this group, he managed to justify more than two years of cheating with countless sexual partners. In fact, he now refers to this behavior as “sexual energy.” Sadly, he has not come to see that he is surrounded by a bunch of self-serving addicts whose behaviors lead them to contract HIV and strengthen their roles as “victims.” It is sick and twisted….almost beyond belief.

      • I only attended AA meetings when my former partner was celebrating a milestone in recovery. I gave Al Anon a shot, but found the room to be full of the same queens from AA. So, I didn’t continue. The whole thing seems to be a cult if you ask me.

    • honey your not alone. i believe you i do . see you have these control freaks. they accuse me yesterday of dominating the meeting because i shared twice and was call a nigger by one of the group members. go figure. but guess what . they will be out there drinking before i will. i seen constant relaspes . because of misguided jerks. they are more into making friends then getting well. everybody is not into recovery,. i stress this often, some want a partner in crime. justifying stupid behaviours. my mom says. it does not take a rocket science to see. that wrong is wrong and right is right. i was bought up right but happen to get high,, i have 17 yrs clean and sober,. a lot of shit i did not do when i was using. because i knew better, but some lie about clean time. some lie about stories. some just pathalogicol liars and when you call them out they get mad and retaliate. they are sick.

      • This is the biggest joke in twelve step. a lot of those people do not count “slips’ and continue to get chips of long term sobriety. They are not sober as long as they claim. a lot of the old timers know that is going on.
        I am really sorry you had to deal with being called that name. Totally and completely unacceptable.

  11. searching- I am sorry to hear this yet I am not surprised. The stories of controlling sponsors also is getting worse and worse. They are insane with power and thinking they know the answers. I have to run but Ill write more later. Hang in and if you need other face to face support its out there.

    Smart, and SOS Secular for Sobriety. What city are you in?

      • I heard a horror story from a former sponsee of mine about the Pompano Florida AA club:

        Apparently a bunch of old timers were running “escorts” with crack addictions. Pretty horrible. I could not corroborate this story so I cannot vouch that it is true. I heard the Pompano club had shut down.

        • So the club is closed now?

          Apparently a bunch of old timers were running “escorts” with crack addictions. Pretty horrible

          Somebody can.

      • Haha that is where I am at. I think my rehab went/goes to the Pompano AA meeting. It was in Pompano Beach.

        • There are multiple AA/NA meetings in Pompano and Pompano Beach, so I don’t know for sure which one you are talking about.

          • When you ladies are in Pompano, could you find out if there is any truth to the rumor? That sponsee wasn’t the most reliable guy and the information is now 4 1/2 years old. Also if you could find out if the club moved or shut down for any period in the last 8 years or so that would help verify if the story is factual.


              • racists not so much. In fact I can remember only one bad one.

                Manipulative abusers, and step bullies, yes. Lots of them. And criminals working under the radar due to anonimity.

  12. It seems strange to me how so many of these people love meetings and multiple 12-step programs. Except, the one that the probably need the most: Sex Addicts. Instead, they embrace and promote promiscuity as “sexual energy.”

  13. Hi All,

    I am sober 2.5 years, having gotten sober in NYC only one year after moving there. I found that the NYC fellowship was filled to the brim with young artists, people with similar interests to me and it fed and nurtured my lack of a social life, being new in NY. Of course, yes, I wanted to get sober as well. I moved to NYC after going through a divorce. I’d always wanted to move away from my home town and he hadn’t. I thought NYC was the perfect place to prove to myself that I could make it away from home. And I did! But I was lonely, and I was a daily drinker, although rarely to the extent it would get me in trouble. “Rarely”.

    So when I was introduced to AA, I got two things I was looking for: Friends, sobriety. I’ve since moved to Arizona, and after attending 45 meetings in 45 days (1/2 of my intended 90/90 to get connected) I realized that I felt a few things about AA, I always had, and when I had mentioned them to peers before they were dismissive of my concerns:
    1. Whether I was an alcoholic, or has AA just expanded the definition so that every one fits into the description. I certainly have a disorder, a spiritual malady, and I do really enjoy being of clear mind/body.
    2. That I wasn’t gaining friends/peers in the same way here in AZ as I did in NYC, and maybe that’s why the program was so attractive to me out there.
    3. The time commitment was interfering with my happiness, and ultimately feeding even more into my anxiety or feeling of not accomplishing enough, and it always wanted more. Meet with a sponsee once a week, a sponsor once a week, go to a meeting everyday, work 40 hours a week, maintain a relationship and attempt to socialize.

    AA has been something I’ve been more scared to leave. Will I feel alone, anxious? It’s been only a few days since I decided to back off of the program and I haven’t felt the same anxiety I did when I was actively pursuing the “suggestions”. AA gave me some coping tools, but ultimately I feel all of this work is too much, I’m so sick of taking myself and everything that happens to me from day to day so damned seriously!

    I’ve told a few of my sober friends and 2/3 have been supportive of my choice to leave as long as I’m happy.

    Thank you for this website and your support!
    L. BlaBla

    • l bla bla.
      Welcome! You are not alone. There are so many of us. I left after many years and never miss the one weekly meeting I was still attending. I miss a few of the women. But thats it.

      There are many things in your post I find troubling that really make AA a cult.

      First off, the 90 meetings in 90 days is not AA. That was created when Rehabs wanted to use AA as a program so they told patients that.

      When I got sober in 1975 at 18, the young people told me to go as often as I felt I needed. I went 2-3 times a week. It wasn’t a contest.
      I never would have gone, stayed or got involved at a deep level if people said the sh##t to me that you were told to do or that you are telling yourself to do.

      Why would you go to AA if you never got into trouble? might be a better fit …be careful.
      AA is filled with 3rd level sex offenders and violent criminals now. They are being sentenced to AA/NA all the time. Read the stories on

      SOS, and Smart are so much healthier. What about joining a club that includes something you are interested in.

      Im glad to see you here.

      you said….”Meet with a sponsee once a week, a sponsor once a week, go to a meeting everyday, work 40 hours a week, maintain a relationship and attempt to socialize.”

      this is insane. I hope you walked away. WTF has AA become? A serious serious cult. Im glad I left.

    • I haven’t been away for very long either. I too am really worried about being lonely after leaving, but then again I didn’t have too many friends near the end of my time. NA took up a lot of my time as well, I think the reason people end up feeling the way they do when it comes to involvement in AA/NA is the fact that you spend all of your free time in meetings, doing stepwork, meeting with your sponsor and going over a lifetime of negative bullshit day after day. I too felt like I wasn’t doing enough too or and they pound it in to people that you can never do enough. There’s so many slogans about being willing to go to any lengths, no matter how insane, to stay sober. When you do want to get out and blow off steam and take a break you get told you are selfish and you should do some service work. It’s against their rules to take time out for yourself. I too am feeling anxious and slightly fearful about my leaving, but I don’t think it will be anywhere near the fear/anxiety I felt during and after meetings. Even if it is just a place to post experience, it’s good to know there are sites like this, it helps you realize you’re not alone in this and people have left and returned to real life

      • Hi EXNA,

        I just get a kick when I think how seriously I once took the opinions of people in AA. The more I saw the depression malaise, general weirdness, and vicious nature of program old timers, the more I felt driven away from them.

        Eventually it just got to be a joke. I would smile and agree with theirposition and keep smiling as I walked away, thankful I didn’t have to buy into that crap anymore.

        But I also learned not to point out the limitations of the program or program members to them- it’s like stripping the illusions of an autistic child, you never know how they will respond -some times they explode, and often they quietly begin character assassination or start revenge driven activities.

        I have found that the best answer is to stay away from “programmed” people or people still trapped in their addictive behavior cycles (drunk or dry) which can be very harmful to people around them. I’ve learned I can’t fix them and I don’t waste my time trying anymore.

        Bernstein’s “Emotional Vampires” gives an excellent view into underlying personality disorders that can lead people to drink or use, and still remain after the drinking or using has stopped. I am reading it now and I wish I had that book 15 years ago. The book actually gives case study formats on how to redirect sick manipulative people so they can’t harm me.

        I now understand why some former AAs call it, “Assholes Anonymous.”

        • yuk- Emotional Vampires! Great title. My sister and I use to joke that could be psychic Vampires. They lurcked in the backs of meetings in the mid 70’s. She and I were 19 and 21. You could feel their sick sexual energy as well.

          I had no idea back then how f###ked up I would someday see AA.

      • WHat are some of your interests? What did you love to do as a kid. There is a whole world out there filled with healthier people. AA is a society of pp who came to together at the sickest point in their lives and are told we can all get along.

        Have you tried Smart meetings online? Is there Smart Or SOS in your area?

        • Hi Massive,

          I like to surf the web, complain about 12 step zombies, pontificate on chat sites, trade leveraged ETF options, and play board games. I really have no interest in more meetings because I haven’t had a desire to drink in almost 2 decades. I like to cook and shop Ebay for toys. I just don’t want to hang out with ex-drunks or druggies much any more. I’ve been thinking of taking up flying model airplanes. And I like to fish.

          How about you?

          • I love someone dearly who needs to not drink right now. But he is.
            The individual went to AA the other day as a placating move.
            He knows of alternatives, and his Google search is as fine as mine.

            But he’s drinking.

            I recommended that he immerse himself in the awfulness of AA for 30 dayss, get a sponsor, the Big Book, go to book studies, contemplate big ol’ Step 5. And 9.

            For 30 days.

            But what if I’m wrong? What if I got someone into a cult here??

            Oh dear God. Dont send him there. Isnt Smart REcovery or SOS in your city?
            Call Lois @ Rational REcovery and talk to her. She is great.
            Has he gotten into trouble yet. If not there is Donna Cornett
            does he wanna quit for good? If not there are many many other ways besides AA.

          • yuk- “really have no interest in more meetings because I haven’t had a desire to drink in almost 2 decades.” Funny. Lets see how you feel after 17 more years sober 🙂 LOL Im so sick of counting my years. Its such a burden I feel. After 30 I felt it was really stupid.

            I agree. Although I loved these programs…I wish I went to them instead of AA….I have been to SMART and SOS as part of my exiting AA, I dont want to hear drunk/drug stories AT ALL anymore.I had enough in AA to alst 50 life times.

            I like to blog, rant about AA crap and progress we are making. I am an activist. I too like to cook and eat out in good restaurants. I love to Swim ! I like to read Anti AA books 🙂 I like to shop. sometimes. I like to bike.
            I love Hawaii and my old friends from NY and Hawaii.

            I love good tv shows. I love Film. I love Parties.

  14. LadyBlaBla,

    I got to the point where I was filled with anxiety and angry after every meeting. After one in particular, I would have a very strong craving for a glass of wine. Immediately after leaving, I felt better and loved my free time that I was wasting at meetings. Your right, AA will have you evaluating yourself every time you open your mouth. I started to feel like I would need to invent some character defects in order to have something to share and fit in with the group. I have been away from that insane behavior for a year and a half. I see more and more how utterly ridiculous my thinking got and was dangerous to my mental health. Give it time. If you were uncomfortable; there’s a reason and it’s probably because “you did get it and not because you didn’t get it. Get rid of the Big Book and read a Good Book.

    • aafree- me too! It will be one year ago in early May. But six months prior to that I was done. I saw the literature like I had never seen it before.

    • Well said! One cannot go to a meeting and simply say that he or she had a bad day…because if you had a bad day, it’s your disease! Work your steps harder! If you had a good day, be careful, you’re getting cocky and headed for a slip. If you don’t relate to people when they share, you’re still in your 4th step. It never ends. You are handed guilt when you walk in the door, and unfortunately, many people buy it hook line and sinker and cling to the meetings because they are programmed to believe that those tables are the ONLY way out of their personal problems. I boughtinto it for years, then one day I was sitting in a meeting and listening, and I thought: “This is utterly ridiculous! We are grown adults! I could no longer stomach this doctrine that said “If you leave AA, it’s prison, hospital or death, nothing else.” CULT.

  15. Thank you guys so much! I met with my sponsor today and was really honest and open about how I was feeling. I got a chance to tell her “That’s how I would expect someone in AA to respond”. I do believe there are many people in AA who do have my best interest in mind, and I think there are a lot of people who dish the program more seriously than it needs to be. I think, I hope that I can still find and maintain a spiritual connection with my higher power without the time commitment encouraged for success. Thank you guys for this forum, I don’t know what I’d be doing if I hadn’t found it!

    • Laby BB- so glad we are here for you. You dont need anyone to have connection with GOD. That proves that AA and these folks are truly cult like. WHen I got sober in the 70’s everyone said it was within us .

      No one said, “Ask your sponsor this ask your sponsor that. AA has seriously declined to a place filled with power tripping old timers who have nothing better to do then boss pp around.

      If anyone is a old fashioned AA person They Don’t boss pp around.

      Hang in a post here as much as you want.

  16. And the work “required” has left me with an impending sense of constant anxiety and neurosis. I couldn’t get in an argument without dissecting how it was my fault. These behaviors are abnormal to the human race. I feel a huge weight has been lifted by leaving the program, and I know I can drink if I want to, but at least I don’t feel like I live in fear and spend all my time maintaining relationships contingent only on my sobriety or how hard I “work it”

  17. Been in VT AA for over 21 months now. Gut feeling is it’s a scam as 4 people control body,rally around donations at end of meeting. They bring in drug addicts,who stop the supposed AA 12 step process. The organization has become built upon those who pray financially upon newer members by offering phoney legal,computer repair and tax services.They get members info and put them in financial peril. Try looking into the Killington chapter for starters.Thought about turning it all over to the state attorney generals office for review.

    • Ron K

      Hi and Welcome to the site.

      AA is in serious trouble and has been declining in LA for the past 7 years.

      I highly suggest you contact the state attorney general and make a formal complaint. This if done everywhere will shine a light on the bad going on. It needs to be exposed for sure.

      • AAfree and Ron,
        Agreed, also send a certified complaint letter to Ny GSO on Riverside drive AA World Headquarters needs to hear all these complaints.

        • I have a similar story, though it doesn’t involve being scammed…but it does involve AA culters overstepping their boundaries and imposing their lives on innocent people…namely my former sponsor and his AL-anon wife telling my wife, during our separation) that I had a disease and not to go back to me, because I might hurt her. She took their avice and stayed away for a long time. It was hell trying to see my daughter. It was a little more elaborate than that, but based on no other information than the fact that I had stopped going to AA. I did contact them both and tell them that if there was further harrassment and spreading of false information, they would end up in civil court. These people are depraved and judgemental, condemning and slanderous. Their agenda will accept no opposition, at ANY cost.

          • I’m sorry u went through that. It is incredible the lengths they will go to. If that’s not a cult what is. If I were u I would completely stay away from all of them. Good luck.

  18. I know there is now a LGBT club in Tampa called the Rainbow club. I can’t begin to imagine the sexual sickness that must go on there…

  19. I gave him RR and SR and OP.
    I told him to search on “M…… Group.”
    That’s the one if he’s going where he’s at.

    But you know, he believes.
    As we all did, once.

    • smsm- we can just point, discuss, educate, share, buy books, give them to them, read them ourselves and pray, chant, hope,

      and then I did more of the above and things got better in a big way! Good Luck. Tell him to call me LOL 🙂 After 3 decades I saw the truth and AA for what it really is.

  20. I got sober 5 years ago. I left a sponsor when she told me that the medication I was taking (Enbrel and Flexiril) for Rheumatoid Arthritis (diagnosed at 15 before I ever had a drink) meant I was not sober. I started praying about whether or not I was supposed to be in AA anymore. About one month after I started really wondering my car was stolen and people in AA started making fun of me on Facebook saying I was a spoiled rich white girl and I was racist because I called criminals low class. I was furious, they said they were joking, I deleted and blocked all of them. It was not the first time they had hurt my feelings, and to be honest with you, I never find being mean to people funny. It was pivotal. I stopped relating a long time ago. I relate more to my peers, co-workers, and family now. AA makes me uncomfortable, I felt like everything I ever felt or did was wrong – I was never allowed to have feelings. If I ever let a feeling run away with me then I was “not working a program.” After finally admitting this to my boyfriend and a dear friend – I didn’t wake up sad this morning. For so long, I felt like I was doomed to live a life in stinky churches, smoking cigarettes in parking lots, and talking to people about my program. AA was just an escape from growing up. I only now realize how strange it was for me to spend time with much older men. I only now realize how I lived my life on a high horse of judgment of others, when what I really felt was fear of their successful lives without AA…

    • Envy is a reality in AA. If they want what you have and they can’t get it, then they are happy to destroy it or you. Typically that can only go so far as reputation, but then a person’s reputation is tremendously important. That’s where the anonymous stuff comes in, AA is simply not anonymous.

      So the best thing to do is give them either no last name, or a fake last name, or just don’t hang with them. Don’t give out phone numbers- get other people’s, and don’t bring AA’s to your home. Simply having a nice car is more than enough to generate real hate driven envy in a clubhouse- I’ve lived it.

      I know some old timers who park their caddys out of sight to avoid this phenomenon. One other thing- the less personal information one gives out, the better. It can only hurt you to have a bunch of nuts know too much about you.

      I recommend that for those of you who are lurkers on this site who are still in AA, go to a Catholic Priest for your fifth step and to discuss problems. They have to keep silent on confessionals even to the point of going to prison.

      • I was actively involved in NA for several years and noticed early on that for every one decent, honest, dependable person there were at least 5 cold, angry, manipulative and abusive people. That’s disgusting how they would think it’s funny to call you those things after having your car stolen. That’s not funny. It’s abusive. Looking back at my time there, I wish I would have said something to someone about behavior like that. I’m not sure it would have made much of a difference though, reason being it was these sickos had gangs of sponsees and they were usually the ones running the show. It’s good to see that you got out of there.

        • I know. I would like to see some do a documentary on the abusve part od sponsor ship cultism in AA/NA.
          It would blow peoples minds th eway they talk to each other amd how the pecking order really works.

          Some cant see it until they are gone. Like me, after leaving I had to go back to some sponsors and say ” Im sorry” that was none of my business, or I didnt know what I was talking about, etc. It felt really good to tell them and they all really appreciated me seeing the truth.

          Yes its so messed up what they did to you.

        • You said it! My former home group of AA has all but folded. It once boasted 50 members, which, in my small town, is a lot. Now it may have ten at any given meeting night…the reason…Old Timer Big Book thumpers and their faithful few followers dominating the meetings, pressing others out of their inner circle, and nothing short of verbal abuse…hounding newcomers, telling them that if they leave, they will die, that if they question AA they have a problem, etc etc. It is a plague in my parts.

    • Aileen- Hi…welcome! Happy to have you here. Here is where you can be happy, successful and in love and married and you wont be attacked by AA wackos who are so full of cultism that the group is still more important then us as individuals. My son said ” Mom, Thats communism. ” Wow ….he’s right” .

      About one month after I started really wondering my car was stolen and people in AA started making fun of me on Facebook saying I was a spoiled rich white girl and I was racist because I called criminals low class.

      Interesting…how judemental they are…but they say they are spiritual, sounds like a bad religion to me. Anyway, they are a sick, sick bunch and we are so lucky to have seen it for what it is and have left.

      IF you read the thread why I left AA stories, here and on you will see how there are thousands of us. I also had a earlier site called there you will see many horror sexual harassment and (worse) stories.

      Again welcome!

    • ” For so long, I felt like I was doomed to live a life in stinky churches, smoking cigarettes in parking lots, and talking to people about my program.”

      I felt that way too. What makes me upset is that I wasn’t offered any other solution by professionals that were supposed to be qualified to assist in improving people’s health. Your statement is exactly where my self-esteem settled in for a long time too. I hid out in the dingiest meeting places I could find for a lot of years because I didn’t think someone who had been such a bad person as I was deserved any better. Of course I heard so many times in meetings “Thank God I never got what I DESERVED”. Implying that we were all so hideous that we really deserved a jail cell, institution, or death.

      A huge problem in 12 step fellowships is that verbal abuse is not only tolerated but applauded and bragged about. It gets people pats on the back to both dish it out and be able to brag about receiving it. Most of society is moving away from verbal abuse being tolerated, but it is called “telling someone the truth” in the 12 step world.

      I actually ran into someone over the weekend who, it turns out, has left AA herself. As I’ve said before, I still attend my homegroup (though I obviously see the problems in AA, and receive much comfort from this site, Orange, and others which help me keep my head on straight), well this lady spoke of finding a spiritual path that fit her so well that she was very happy with it and the other folks involved. She seemed to be trying to keep me from judging her that she didn’t attend AA as well now, but I told her I greatly respected her path and completely understood her leaving AA and thought her current life sounded just wonderful and that she looked happy. That seriously felt good. No weird phrases that don’t mean anything were spoken, but we talked about our spiritual perspectives and mutual love of animals, since we were both attending a fundraiser for the local shelter. Real discussion feels really good!

      • Oh my God I can relate so much to what you are saying. The horrible people. I didn’t get what I deserved!! I deserved much better than what AA gave me!! I had 17 years sober, and relapsed right after I buried my mom, who died from the hands of an incompetant Dr. I drank 2 drinks the night after I buried her, when my family and I went to see my nephew play in his band at a bar. I felt I needed an emotional release. I stopped shortly afterwards, on my own. Went back to AA. Got a sponsor. She told me to get rid of my 30 yr old big book and get a new one because the old one didn’t work!!! She was soooo condescending. I dumped her. Now, looking back, I should have told her that NO BIG BOOK can help. It’s a scam and she’s a brainless idiot.

        • free at last,
          glad your free. we had an old timer here in the UK who
          used to hit his sponsees on the head with the big book
          if they weren’t getting it.

          now that’s what i call bible bashing..

    • THis really pisses me off because I am in the healthcare industry and I know for a fact that Enrbel is not an addictive medication, it is a biologic agent that targets TNF factor, a major component in the inflammatory symptoms of rheumatoid arthritis. A simple google search would have let your sponsor know this, but there again, sponsors know it all! Glad you got out sweetie

  21. BCM- What makes me upset is that I wasn’t offered any other solution by professionals that were supposed to be qualified to assist in improving people’s health.

    This is my mission. I brought Hank Hayes book YOU’VE BEEN LIED TO …and gave it to my chiropractor who knows everyone in Hollywood, from Carole King to Chris Prentiss. Anyway he said he would read it and that he saw the 13 stepping going on with someone he knew. Older 60 year old with a 23 year old etc.

    Like I have said before, if each of us on the blogs buys one book of other options that we like, and gives it to a professional that we know and maybe our letter to The Professional exposing the bad going on in AA/NA then we can make headway.

    If each person who has been hurt by an AA member and AA will file a complaint to the State Attorney General in their state as well as in NY state against Alcoholics ANonymous they will have to do an investigation.

    • Absolutely, Massive, I gave my therapist a copy of the article “Is AA Negativity Based?” to back up the things I have been telling him regarding the enforcement of my negative thinking patterns by involvement in AA, rather than learning better ways of thinking and dealing with life situations.

    • im going to ask the doctors at the surgery where i work
      if i can put other info on there tables and book shelf’s.
      I once sent off for leaflets for SOS and gave them to the well woman centre where i worked some years back.
      mayby i could do that again.

  22. I knew I was in trouble when my sponsor could not talk to me anymore as she was always busy..yet she found time to ask me to contribute money and go to “fundraisers” which were being held in the wineries in our area. Its funny how my money meant more to her than keeping me out of a place where I should not a winery.
    AA might have been good in its day..but more and more, I see nothing but nasty, phony, narcisstic, ego maniacs who say one thing and do another. Its wasting my time and I am now looking for other means to continue my abstinance.

  23. Hi Tara Welcome!

    Agree totally with you about where AA is now.

    Have you tried Smart REcovery or SOS , LifeRing ?

  24. Just learning more about this and other resources. Listened to several shows of Monica in LA on blogradio but not sure how to log into that chat room she refers to during the show. Also, I don’t see anywhere listed the day of week or time of show. Can anyone help me figure out how to contact Monica? I am in the mid-west and trying to get alternatives introduced into a very stubborn part of the country (middle Ohio) but I have some great ideas about a national movement that would go along with this fastly growning “end AA” trend. AA has lived a full life and is no longer useful and I don’t make any apologies for it or try to protect it like some of the alternatives do. I recognize that the end of AA is an idea whose time has arrived and there is no point trying to savage it. Let the people go where they want. But the multi-billion dollar recovery industry has a responsibility to everyone who pays taxes to do whats most useful and effective with our tax dollars. I also know the kind of tricks NIAAA, NIDA, and other major funders are up to with “creative research” to make combination clinical studies with drugs, CBT, and 12 step programing. But just remember NIAAA some of us are watching you and we know what you’re doing! We need to start thinking about getting some big dogs in on this fight….like Secular Coalition of America – the first lobby in DC for secular Americans. Call or email them and demand they look into the fraudulent religious based recovery industry. Its why in the midwest we can’t get any alternatives. They’re all nuts about god here!!

    • Count me out.

      I won’t interact with secular organizations that exist to undermine Christianity.


      You should note that the vast majority of Veterans like me feel that way. We took the Oath of allegiance with the committment, “So Help Me God!” at the end for a reason.

      • I don’t believe secular organizations exist to undermine Christianity. They offer something to people who aren’t religious, which is not an affront to religious organizations. AA isn’t really Christian anyway. It is an organization that can easily become its own religion and often has.

        • Hi BCM,

          It really depends on the organization and here’s the key: Who is funding it. Most secular organizations are fine, some are REALLY hostile to Christianity. And I whole heartedly agree with you on you observations on AA: It falls way short of Christianity.

          • Perspective is always interesting. Living in the Bible belt, anyone who doesn’t identify as Christian is seen as a complete outsider in society here. AA people often humiliatingly call to task anyone who does not say the Lord’s prayer at the end of a meeting (especially women, men can get by with it if they have a few years sober), though they are not supposed to be a religious organization. I always find it ironic that all the discussion of “turning everything over to God” is so far from the free will humans are supposed to have, but the most Christian of AA members just gloss over it.

          • I think pressuring people to pray is just a non-starter. In other words, Christians who actually have read the Bible know that when the spirit moves people, they will pray- or not.

            It’s not some thing to be pushed. But many folks have their egos wrapped around their religion and don’t know when to shut up. This is particularly harmful to newly sober people, because they are sensitive as a raw nerve to such bad experiences.

            I certainly was. And I offered to kick one guy’s butt in the parking lot for pushing the God thing when I was new (I was a militant agnostic in my first 6 months- focus on militant.)

            Again, another reason that a secular 12 Step program makes sense- as long as they don’t make the same mistake and attack faith. Some folks hate anything to do with religion and they should have options as to how they want to grow. I think that keeping all options open makes best sense because people need room to grow.

            Frankly, I’m convinced that what works for me may well not work for others- so I don’t push my views, but I also won’t sign on to things that attack my faith because it helped me a lot.

        • I have a faith, but no religoun…yet i would give secular
          organisations a go.
          i would prefer to try them than try AA again or religoun.

  25. This great country that you so proudly attempt to boast standing for as a veteran was created by founding fathers and mothers who were freethinking and believed in the freedom of religious expression. You ought not forget that mr. veteran who seems to think your arrogance combined with ignorance rules out over the land. Young and old, black and white, strong and weak are becoming more and more enlightened in this age of the internet to the real agenda of freaks who claim to be religious when in fact you’re really just a power fanatic. We don’t need your kind and you’re not wanted. You’ve done enough harm to the world!!

    • Marie,

      I can see a hate filled person like you would feel that way. But if you lived in most other countries in the world, you wouldn’t have the freedom to speak like that. You have those freedoms here in America because of the sacrifice of over 1,000,000 American men (the vast majority of whom were Christians) who died in uniform to achieve those freedoms and protect them for you. Grow up young lady.

      • I sincerely mean this. I must be missing something. I never considered AA a christian organization. Granted they “use” the lords prayer and refer to God but that does not make them christian’s. However, they are some kind of a cult religion. Im confused. By the way, I consider my self to be a christian. Not a hypocrite.

        • Sue,

          Having studied this question at length (and my findings supported my decision to mocve out of AA, but continue to support the Church) I am convinced that AA is not Christian.

          There are Christian influences in AA, but Christianity requires acknowledging Christ as Lord.

          AA doesn’t do that.

          A number of very strongly Christian Churches in the 1940’s spoke out against AA on this very topic. AA is a cult designed for shaping behavior- and a number of Churches approve of AA because it was the only solution they had. But specifically Christian recovery groups are active at many churches now and they are growing.

          Also the debate on spirituality in the program varies depending on where the program is- in Akron Ohio, traditional spirituality in AA is embraced, in New York, much less so. I think that AA’s “spirituality light” approach works with some ultra-rebel drunks, but it falls far short of the faith developed in well developed main line churches, which is why many old timers feel unfulfilled with the life answers the program provides and move on.

          • Thanks, Im pretty tired and was trying to figure out what the difference of opinion was that was occurring. I mean, I never stayed in AA longer than 10 months at a time but I was in and out of the nut house a half dozen times in 30 yrs. I could never figure out how a non believer dealt with the mass confusion and contradictions regarding religion and the importance of faith in a higher power. That was never an issue with me. Just every other thing about AA was. No exceptions. I was a misfit from the start. Sorry, Im rambling now. thanks again

    • sue,
      spot on..the teachings were mixed up, and comming from many sources..
      mass confusion.
      i personally don’t want any kind of religoun again.And for a long time now i haven’t wanted to join any group around alcohol or drugs

      but religoun helps some people, and some are happy with it

    • Thanks for the link. I checked this out and it looks pretty scary. Welcome to the cult of AA. Have you ever been to this meeting place?

  26. The best advice I ever got from A.A. was when I got my first year medallion and it said on the back: “to thine own self be true.”

    It took me years, and some stints in and out of sobriety to truly grasp the meaning and the power of that statement. But when I did I realized that I did not need god, the steps, a sponsor, or anyone else for that matter, to get and stay sober.

      • Yeah, it was a crude attempt at a joke. But it has some truth in it as well. In my former homegroup there was a particular AA guru guy; a Pacific Group disciple. He used to really make me angry with the things that he said and the hypocrisy he spread around about having a solution to all his problems and how wonderful his life was … ad nauseum. The bullshit would roll off his tongue with a gleam in his eye and a smile on his face.

        Well let’s just say I got to know his wife a little better, a whole lot better, and found out not all was so “wonderful” in their life together. Needless to say when I met up with him a few months later the smile and gleam were gone. Guess god can’t solve all your problems after all.

        I proved a point, in rather dramatic fashion. In hindsight it was a selfish and cruel thing to do and it does not speak highly of my character. But, contrary to the A.A. wisdom, it has no bearing on whether or not I drink. Only I decide whether I drink or not.

        I really don’t care if he drinks over it or not. That’s his problem. And, after all, he has a solution to all his problems …

        • 13 stepper- sounds like an adult issue not a 13 stepping issue. I guess I can assume you are in LA.

          Have you left?

          • Hi Frank,

            But ain’t that AA? That kind of wild crap goes on all the time. I have one buddy (27 years without a drink or drug) who now absolutely rejects AA and gets angry if someone suggests he is sober or in anyway involved with AA.

            The reason? He got married to a girl in AA who was a crackhead and she relapsed cleaned him out- literally robbing his house- and disappeared. 6 months later he found her… when he was watching COPS live in Atlanta and there she was lying on side walk after a drug bust with a policeman kneeling on her head.

            He went up to Atlanta and bailed her out and brought her home. Then she convinced him to buy her breast implants and he did! (You know that one wasn’t going to end well.)

            Within 3 months they were fed up with each other and she told him that now she had boobs, she could date anyone she wanted to. And of course there was a line of adulterers at the local AA club house waiting for her. Sure enough she screwed around on him repreatedly. He walked, got the divorce with very favorable terms given the hell she put him through and swore off AA.

            Everyone at the club was relieved he walked away from AA because they were speculating he was going to shoot the
            guy(s) who screwed his wife and nobody wanted to be there is the lead started flying. He’s still very bitter to this day, but then he picked her, you know…

          • You know come to think of it, half the reason I went to AA for the last five years was to hear these freaked out wild stories. My last sponsor had 38 years and always said “AA was the greatest show on earth” meaning that the wild shit that went on was at least highly entertaining.

            I find most of it rather repulsive- but like watching a bad car wreck as I drove by, it was hard to turn my head away from it. Now I just stay away from that whole mess.

          • Hi Yo,

            That was a wild story, but that kinda stuff went on here also. I am so glad I don’t feel the need to go to AA. In fact, I was just laying here thinking how grateful I am to be waking up this morning July 5, and feeling good and ready to take on the day. Staying clean and sober without the AA bullshit is enough motivation for me.

  27. I haven’t been to any kind of meeting in about a year and a half, not dead, not using, have no desire to get high and best of all, NO desire to attend any kind of 12 step circus. Hey Yo, really like your sense of humor, life can be very amusing if we pay attention.

    for those who have left AA
    do any of you ever have to mix with people in AA-
    outside of AA.
    How do you handle it.
    Though i no longer attend AA at times i bump into them.
    and this week will have to mix with some of them-
    joined a yoga group and found out a few of them go there.
    i hope i can stay stronge not feel inferior ashamed gulity
    not care what they do or say or what they think of me
    hope am feeling happy and confident and asserive that day.
    and if they try to talk AA tell them am not here for that.
    in past not only have i had bad times from some in AA while i was attending AA
    but also i have had bad expierances with some from AA at times when i have left meetings –
    i left AA before for 2 years-in that time i went to police around someone from AA-
    only on returning to AA had to go to police again around someone esle from AA-
    am going to go to my yoga this week
    and try and be okay while there i shall go since i signed up for it-but then cancle it after the session-
    find another outside interest-
    i find it difficult to be in there presence for any period of time

    • Sally,
      I never have to worry about seeing people very often that are in the program. We do not travel in the same circles. I actually enjoy it when I run into them at the store for instance because I am clean and I know that probably bugs them. If you do stop and chat for a moment the phoniness just radiates from them. They are so self absorbed believe me, they are paying you no mind and I am obliged to return them the same consideration. Who really cares what these robots think? The truth of the matter is that if it wasn’t for the rooms we would have never met these people in the first place!

      • thats true if not for AA they would not have been in my life-
        i bumped into one on the street while back he
        said “wont be long till its back to bottles of spirits”
        and another i bumped into continualy spoke of his problems-
        and said i dont feel sorry for these alkies thats out there drinking
        they are enjoying themselfs and they chose to drink.
        Am not drinking bottles of spirits
        and know i wont
        i dont want anyone to feel sorry for me-why
        would i want anyone to pity me.
        and over last few years questioned if i was an alcoholic
        and recently almost convinced im not.
        as for real alcoholics who are out there drinking
        well according to AA they dont have a choice unless they GET WITH AA PROGRAMME
        and it was AA that told them that
        Not all but most of the AA /NA sober alocholics/addicts
        to me either seemed to hate or have false pity on
        those outside of AA or relapsers that drank or used
        didnt care no compassion and judgemental
        had little or no time for them-unless they had just walked in or returned to AA
        and stereotype people who arent doing AA -as no good
        the only reason any of them spoke to me to begin with was because they are told-to greet the new commer-
        have been slowly shutting the door on it for some time
        hope to shut it for good now
        and do so with my self respect and dignaty intact
        to all and everyone i ever met there-
        its all over for me
        no more revolving door

      • Frank,

        Ain’t that the truth! AA’s are incredibly self censored. It’s almost scary to see it from outside the “program.”

  29. I was arrested for my second DUI in October 2011. I’m only 27, and I knew I had to get a handle on things. I chose a deferred prosecution (which means I admit I have a problem with alcohol and will follow the courts procedures for treatment for 2 years). I am forced to go to 8 AA meetings a month, and after the first 6 I just couldn’t take it anymore. Every AA meeting ended up with someone coming up to me with, “you’ll come around” or “I used to be mad at god too”. I politely explain I am not mad at religion, I believe in science not in fairy tales. Ive been treated like a broken human being for this. I consulted both my counselors in my treatment group and also my probation officer for alternative meetings. I explained to them that it isn’t that I don’t want to be sober, it’s that AA does not provide me with the information and support I personally need. I don’t rely on god to steer my ship like they do. They just told me good luck finding something else and that I didn’t let god hold me back from drinking so I shouldn’t let god hold me back from AA. They were all rather rude, and months later I continue to get this negative treatment because I refuse to lie and say that it works for me. I have to have a slip signed, and they won’t accept any online meetings, and there aren’t enough meetings a month for me to meet my quota of other programs. I’m very angry and don’t feel that I should have to be brainwashed into beating myself down and saying how terrible I am and only god can help me. I want real answers, real help. Any suggestions?

    • Jen,

      I would recommend that you just go, get your paper signed, and maintain your position. “To thine own self be true” is the AA slogan that applies here. If you are an atheist you have the right to choose to be one.

      The best way to deal with this stuff is to not engage in it. When an AA bully comes up don’t speak, smile, and walk away. Find one small meeting that meets twice per week, go, and then leave.

      They’ll get the message that you are there because of a court order, not because you want to be very quickly- and most will look at you, smile, and walk away.

      It’s still better than jail.

      • I do agree that small meetings are actually better. Just sign and leave, do not engage and look for Specialized agnostic or atheist groups. I still am curious what city you are in and what we can do now to expose this and change it.

    • Jen, Thanks for posting and welcome.

      How can we help you? What city are you in? This is outrageously wrong. IN 2012, a women is being sent by her Court (our government) to a religious cult to get help with your drinking.

      Why is this so obvious to me now. Because I brought a family member here and I was horrified at what I saw in mixed meetings.

      For sanity sake please join a large group of us ex steppers on

      Introduce yourself and ask for suggestions there.

      Im sorry but I disagree with yuk yuk on this one, that you should just go and have to sit there and be subjected to all those bad vibes for 2 years. That is F#$#$ing ridiculous. Why should anyone be sent to a religious cult that is also equally dangerous with sexual predators as a choice to help with her drinking. Im sorry but this stuff has got to STOP SOMEWHERE! Why not with her.

      I say fight back. Contact me please.

      Lets talk.
      contact me at makeaasafer@gmail and I will see if we can help.
      They have to make SMart Recovery has an online meeting every night. See if you can get a hold of Tom Horvath at Smart REcovery and see if they have worked out how court ordered people can prove they are attending meetings online.

      ALso. Have you found out if you are living in a state that has already deemed AA too religious and therefor they have to offer you other options.

      No SOS? No WFOS? NO LifeRING. We know there are online meetings. Now you can tell your lawyer and we need to build an advocacy group to help citizens like yourself.

      • Hi Massive,

        By all means PLEASE recommend other options- including appropriate legal actions that will fix this problem. My views are based on the constraint that she has to go to meetings in lieu of jail only.

        If there are ways to get this constraint lifted, go for it. I do not believe ANYONE should have to attend meetings against their will. We are not in the Soviet Union (at least we didn’t used to be.)

    • Thank you so much for all of the responses! I live in Washington state, and yes our court found that being forced to attend AA meetings specifically was unconstitutional. I have brought this up, but I’m met with “there are other options”. So I ask what they are, “I don’t know”, “good luck finding something”, “there are 2500 meetings a month you’ll find one that works if you try”. I asked my lawyer about all of this and she gave me links to online meetings, but my probation officer says the court won’t take those. I have no real options and absolutely no one is helping me. I try explaining this rationally, but they’re brainwashed and get angry with me. I stand alone here, and am scared they will send me back to jail just for not being a sheep. I’m in south king county if that helps.

      • I would go to large speaker meetings, sit near women and don’t talk to anyone. If you can go to a different meeting each time that helps too as you won’t make any “friends”. Best of luck to you.

        • Etp,

          Speaker meetings are a great idea. The last couple of times in AA, I purposely went to different meetings. No matter how many times they tried to express the importance of having a home group, I was not interested. Experience taught me that was not a good idea if I wanted any privacy. Experience also taught me; why get close to anyone? For the most part if you leave they will disappear anyhow.

            • I agree ‘Yo’
              As a rule of thumb I found the one’s with the longest sobriety the least likeable characters and certainly not worth getting to know. Try getting them to have a conversation about anything other than AA……Most of them struggle!

        • yea, get their right as the meetings starts and as soon as its over leave. This is just horrible though. I can send our letter showing how dangerous AA/NA is to show to your probation officer.

      • Your probation officer can be sued for telling you to go to AA. It has been deemed too religious. Tell him you know your rights.

        CAn you give me his name and phone number I can call him to begin a discussion informing him of the law. I will not talk about you what so ever.

        Let me know It would be fun to do. They all need to know what they are doing is illegal.

        contact me

    • Jen,

      I was wondering? Do you label yourself an alcoholic (maybe not) when you introduce yourself. If so; dont allow them to intimidate you to do so. Might be tough at first but you will get use to it :-). I watched a guy years ago that was court ordered and he refused to do that. They would harass him at the break. Eventually, they gave up and left him alone or made a joke. He would just smile at them. Im sorry that you have to go through this and hope that you find an alternative that suits you better.

      I never, ever liked AA but went willingly. Cant imagine how traumatic it would be; to be forced to endure something that is so against your better judgement. Best Wishes!

      • Tell them you “have a desire to stop drinkiing but are not an alcoholic”. They’ll be unable to push you to admit you are an alcoholic, get confused and wander away….

  30. I do not know if this is the site to post this concern. I reside in Sudbury, Ontario, Canada and was until recently a member of AA here.

    In 2008 I started dating an AA member. I had 1 year & she had 25. Shortly after we began the relationship, her abuse started. It move forward to her and another member trying to convince me to commit suicide. It progressed to to a number of members harrassing me through slander, false police reports, threatening violence, telling police what meetings I attend (althogh this is not a real issue other breaking my anonymity). Recently I advised this group to not speak to me anymore and that a nod a meetings would suffice. Out of retribution, these members began positioning themselves very close to me at meetings and outside after meetings. On each instance I would remove myself and sit elsewhere or walk away. Eventually, one mebere walked over to me and began pushing herself against me with her bum. She then began to accuse me of trying to assault her. These are sick people to say the least,

    • Hi David. Welcome.

      Yes this is the right place. Sorry to hear you hooked up with a crazy oldtimer. You are not alone. But there are other choices out there. You can go to a SMART Recovery or SOS meeting. These are free and non religious programs that are more science based…

      I would check them out online. SMART has online meetings everyday.

      ALSO, I would file a compliant with the NY State Attorney General’s office about AA in General.

      You are not alone. There are thousands of us who left or are leaving AA.

    • hello david
      theres some swearing and talk of sexual abuse in my posts dont read if that upsets you-
      am shocked – and am so glad that i didnt get into a relationship
      in my 12 yrs there-
      though i had some big problems there-
      they played games with my mind too at times-
      would say things to me and later denie haveing said them
      told me i was crazy-
      they drove me nuts i cant hardley believe
      this could have happend to you-
      but am sure it did-
      am haveing memories of some peoples shares just now-
      cast my mind back to one meeting where a lesbian woman with 7 yrs
      shared how she had beat her partner up the night before-
      she said she didnt know what the programme was doing to her-
      am wondering now even more about this 12 st programme-
      could it in some way along with AA as a whole
      be causeing some people to become more sick more abuseive
      than they were or something like that.
      one old timer who sexually abused me when i first went to AA-
      did actually apologise to me later-
      think i had 2 or 3 sorrys in my 12 yr there-
      he told me he had done it because since he got to AA
      he no longer could find a sexual partner and had done it for relief-
      it may seem a minor thing what he did to some –
      but for me it caused a severe panic attack and lowered my already low self esteem-
      he phoned me and said “Am haveing a wank right now as we talk-
      do you mastrubate-her at the wednesday meeting mastruabtes when shes on the phone
      I was a couple of weeks into AA detoxing from drink drugs and had PTSD
      due to haveing been sexually abused and raped.
      i was clean and sober for first time in years and already scared.
      i relapsed and when i went back was ordered by another old timer and my then sponsor of 20 odd yrs sober she shouted “It happend to me to when i first came but i kept my mouth shut about it -i told her i was going to
      go back into pycology and not be at AA for a while-she shouted your fuck all special who do you think you are
      i had another severe panic attack
      am sorry about this woman hope shes well out of your life
      hope you post some more about whats happend to you-what went on for you there
      take care.

  31. David,

    Why would you continue to go to that meeting??? As the pro-aa’s (which I am not) would say find another meeting. Better yet; why go to AA meetings at all???

    • Yea I agree with SUE, don’t find another meeting. Just run while you still can And write and blog about it everywhere. Get it out. Tell it man and don’t believe their stupid rhetoric. Its such brainwashing.

      AA has many cult like qualities. Run, baby run…as Sheryl Crow sings!

  32. I left AA in the UK, after attending for 6 years. I joined AA at the age of 29.

    My reasons for leaving were similar to what many people have stated here. First, there was the covert bullying, if you said anything that the ‘old timers’ didn’t agree with in a meeting, then they would ‘share’ and shoot you down. As the philosophy of AA says, these people are the carriers of wisdom. The message in the meetings was tow the line, or you will be labelled “sick”.

    As I didn’t want that label, I towed the line, and did the stock AA meeting share, (the stock shares are the ones you learn from other peoples shares, what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. I would advise lay people or new members of AA not to be fooled by what people say in meetings about how AA has improved their lives, or the wisdom they have acquired by “working the programme”. These are just examples of stock sharing).

    Secondly, for a time, I just went to meetings in London, (and there are lots of them in London), and I didn’t get involved with the ‘extra-curricular’ stuff. I must say that at this time, attending the meetings in London did keep me away from drink. However, I didn’t realise at the time, but, and insidious fear was probably bing implanted and taking root. AA’s philosophy is that Alcoholics can’t trust themselves, and that if they don’t “keep coming back” they will probably die a horrific death, with their head down “a toilet bowl” or some other unsavoury style of death ??????

    My partner was promoted at work, and we moved out of London. I had been attending AA for about 2 years when we moved. Thus, I began attending AA in a new area of the country, where groups were more limited, and the membership not very diverse as the London groups. The new groups tended to have the same people going to the groups in the area. These groups were different from the large groups in London I was used to attending, and I will say now that AA turned into a nightmare when I got involved with its members outside of meetings.

    At the groups, I felt subtle pressure to conform to group norms, (and it was always the same people in the groups). I began exchanging telephone numbers, and even thinking I was forming friendships, (which was great, as I was living in a new area, and didn’t have any other connections).

    I listened to the “message”, did service, and helped other alcoholics. I eventually took the giant leap of faith, and found a sponsor.

    [I don’t know what happened to my reasoning and rationality at this time, I think it must have gone out of the window]. A lot of the people at these meetings were describing having had enduring mental health problems, and having been institutionalised and homeless: But, always said that they had overcome these problems as a result of working the programme, and with the help of an AA sponsor. (Hindsight is a marvellous thing, and one might think that a rational person would perhaps have avoided taking advice from these people, as I had no similarities with them whatsoever. I had not had enduring mental health problems, I had also found a therapist in London I could work with. I had not been institutionalised or in prison, and I had not had psychosis). I was given the same message, “these are the yets”.

    The sponsor I chose was the Chair of the local inter-group. She was 63 and had attended AA for 20 years. She admitted in meetings that she had had pervasive mental health problems for a large part of her life. She also shared that she had been told to stop taking medication and not to listen to health professionals by her first sponsor, (she said she had done this, and that it had been like hitting a brick wall at 50 miles an hour).

    She was very keen on my doing a Step 4 with her. I was reluctant, as I felt I had done my confessional bit with a Health Professional. But, she kept on pressurising me and saying that I was as “sick as my secrets”. She also told me that as a result of “rigorous honesty” I must tell everyone, even prospective employers, of my membership of AA, which I did, (I proudly wore the AA badge). However, a self-preservation instinct kicked in when it came to Step 4, something held me back from telling this woman about any skeletons in my closet, (which everybody has by the way, even if it is only stealing a cookie when your grandmother wasn’t looking). I was told this was my “flaw of character”, and that I wouldn’t get “well” until I did the Step 4. I was told that I needed to “come to” and believe in my higher power, if I wanted to make any progress, and that I was stuck at Step 1. She also repeatedly told me that my life would get worse, as I had not yet his my “rock bottom!”

    I also noticed that she was displaying envious behaviour. It didn’t matter what I told or asked her, it was accompanied by negativity. I felt that she didn’t want me to “get well”. If I mentioned anything good that had happened in my life, then she would put that down to AA, and anything bad that happened in my life was as a direct result of my not working the programme. Her attitude became more and more hostile. I then noticed that other ‘old-timers’ and people at the groups were speaking to me about things that I had discussed with my sponsor, supposedly confidentially. She was labelling me in the AA group as “sick”, (which is one of the worst label to have in AA). People started to avoid me, and some people even shunned me. (I later worked out that a clique were operating in the area, and they had everybody tied into sponsorship. They had all been 4th stepped, and it was clear in the groups that some sponsors had not respected their confidentiality. Thus, there was a sense of fear in the groups, with regards to the ‘old-timers’. Lets face it, the people who had been sponsored in these groups must have been fearful of either having their Step 4 exposed to all unsundry or being labelled “sick”).

    I felt a growing sense of fear and paranoia. If I mentioned anything about my fears, it was because I was “sick” or a “dry drunk”. I did not get any AA support, and, looking back I feel that the sponsor and the group were getting off on my mental deterioration. I began to go into melt down. All the sponsor said about my going down hill fast, was that I was “coming to”, and that was it !

    My life did start to deteriorate, and pretty quickly, with my mental health deteriorating rapidly. I found that things that had happened in the sponsor’s life, were being played out in my own life, (I don’t know what happened, whether this was a form of projection or what?). But, I eventually had a mental collapse, over a weekend, which involved a psychotic episode. My partner was worried, and I was admitted to hospital. (I still look back at this with a great deal of confusion, and this happened over 10 years ago). The episode was short, 2 days, and during it I had admitted myself to: first a homeless persons unit, and was then admitted to a psychiatric institution.

    I am still confused as to what led to my breakdown. However, I do feel that the sponsor and AA were an important contributory factor. (I would be interested to know if anybody else has had similar episodes. I would also be interested if anybody else was told by someone in AA that they had an experience due to “finding the differences and not the similarities”. A person suggested that this had happened due to my choice of Sponsor ?????

    I was discharged from hospital, and began to recover. I went to AA a few more times, but, felt that people in AA were gloating about my having broken down. The attitude was, “you are just like us now !” As I had now been institutionalised, and had my “rock bottom”.

    I decided to stop attending, and even after everything, was still fearful that I might drink and die, for a couple of years afterwards. The indoctrination was deep. My self-esteem and sense of self-worth were through the floor. However, I managed not to go to meetings, even though, despite everything, I felt a strong urge to do, for about 6 months afterwards, (there can be comfort in the familiar, even when it is a toxic environment).

    I then applied to University, and was accepted. My energies then went into something I valued. Education gave me the skills and self-esteem that are required to practice “a new happiness and a new freedom”, in contrast to the false “promises” of AA.

    Thankfully, have not experienced any similar psychosis since this happened, and I have recovered over time.

    I remember an AA ‘old timer’ saying on one occasion, “the AA group will love you, until you can learn to love yourself”. Well, nowadays I love myself enough, not to need AA

    • hello D
      am sorry all this has happened to you
      and yes i think AA caused it.
      Pre AA there were times i was homeless in hostels
      and i was hospitalised for 3 days with pycosis over 20 yrs ago and about 8 years pre aa
      havent been in jail
      so i fitted into the rock bottom type in a way-
      however pre AA i sorted my own homeless problem out along with some other problems i had and was in process of sorting more out in group support for abuse and pycology
      and i was housed when i first went to AA-
      i have never had a pycosis again-
      Dureing my 12 yr of going to AA i could have lost my home through them-but luckily didnt-
      at over a year clean and 3 years sober-
      they wanted to push me into leaveing my home kid and dog and go live in womens dry house
      telling me i wasnt clean and sober-
      even tho i hadnt drank or used for ages-
      they call those who are abstinant but not on programme dry drunks-if i had gone i would have lost my home-
      i also nearly left it because of harrasment from some members-
      I also often felt suisidal-
      they were driveing me into states of depression panic and confusion-
      the steps D
      they can stick up there big fat AA asses-
      they didnt work when i did them and did my best to work them-
      my first life story someone told me-was handed around the room for everyone to read without my consent-
      And later my second fourth step was shared with others-
      my last 4th step as far as i know was kept confidential but because of things that happend just prior to me leaveing AA
      i have my suspisions that was also shared with some others-
      i went through all the steps as best i could they did nothing for me other than some of it humiliated me-
      some of the steps frightened me to –
      step 2 and 3 in NA/AA i spent massive amount of time and energy trying to twist my own mind into denying the god i had believed in most of my life trying to find another this for me was very frightening to do very difficult and i tryed to do it because i thought i had to
      because i was told to and because i wanted to please others-
      today am back to my old beliefs that i had pre AA
      am not of any religoun and am not an athiest
      -AA is for deflateing the ego and makeing people humble by a process of humilation-
      it did humble me to some degree-
      but mostly i just feel like someone killed my spirit took the fight out of me the passion my sense of justice–
      something like that-
      they hurt me inside in my heart they hurt me in my mind-
      LSD did less damage to my mind-
      i no longer care for these people who almost had me –
      AA is a life sentance into service for AA
      and god is AA-
      one conforms to AA if they keep going they have to in order to survive in AA
      and one keep going because AA tells them
      no one gets out alive –
      but am out and im still alive.

    • Thank you D for telling us this story. I’d sue that “sponsor”. But that’s the kind of trash that’s in so many AA groups. If I never see or talk to another AA it’s be too soon.

      I can look back to so many incidents over the years. I’ve heard only people who had really horrible childhoods stay in 12 step groups long term because they are so mean, and people harmed as children are used to the harm. I believe it.

      Thank GOD I am free of that warped cult.

      • thanks for post-
        agree with your post i stayed there for among other reasons the one you have posted-
        not so much because i was used to people being mean to me
        even though i was-but more-
        its not as bad here as it was out there-
        dont matter to me that am writeing bout my past everyone’s read it anyway
        my life storie was passed around meeting room- but i am fed up talking bout past this post is diffrent to AA talk though
        in there it was all about what i did wrong to others this is about what happend to me-and its not and never has been a playing a fiddle for sympathy story
        am not in no state fo self pity around my past-
        (my childhood wasnt all bad-heard much worse in therapie and from other peoples stories-)
        however my parents had problems my father drink and unable to listen
        and miserly-he also had some great points i love him dearly
        my mother got drunk sometimes and gambling-she was violent-
        and could be emotionaly and mentaly cruel-however they also had good points
        i didnt starve or go without warmth clean cloathes wasnt neglected and both my parents were hard workers
        i also got a lot of healthy affection from my father when i was younger
        up till teenagers years.
        we moved around a lot and lived in hostels digs at times
        there was sexual abuse in my childhood-not my father
        there was poverty at times but being a child who spent time in
        very poor countries-i never knew we were poor and later in life
        when i was a young teenager-my parents financial situation improved-
        parents fought at home all the time
        in my teens and adult life i was kidnapped and raped age 16
        and both my marrages and all my relationships have been with abuseive men-
        who put me in hospital
        PRE AA i sought help many times from variouse places-
        and was in pycology on entering AA-
        a sponsor and others encouraged me to give up pycology-
        what i would often think was -things were worse for me pre AA-
        at least in AA im not being raped or battered-
        and untill last year no one there had ripped me off for money-
        the bad treatment i got from others there seemed not as bad as
        what others -partners friends ect had done pre AA and what would be waiting for me if i left AA-
        “WE go straight back to where we were at
        it dont get better out there it gets worse.”
        however when my life was threatned by one male member and the other
        members blamed me for it all-
        i thought no this is just the same as out there-
        next thing i will be getting battered and told YOU DID IT!
        just like when my x partner battered me
        then tell me -i did it- i made him do it.
        the only thing i did was stay with him till i found a way to leave him safely
        cause to leave him may have ment death for me just like to leave AA may mean death for me-
        I wasnt okay with feelings of being controlled by some of them
        abuse in there did the same to me as abuse out of there did-
        made me feel worthless hurt confused angry self blame shame panic want to run away-
        i run away from meetings-but would return because of drink
        and things my drinking caused-i got run over by a car once on relapse)
        i went back because there was no where else to go -fear that drinking would get worse-
        and believeing what they told me from the first-
        that only AA could help-then i would relapse and leave again-
        this time out my drinking hasnt caused me any problems
        so far .

  33. Hi D,
    I’m so sorry you we’re put through that. It’s not right. The kind of cruelty you were subjected to by your ex sponsor needs to be stopped, and some of us are working to expose this kind of behavior so that changes will be made. What you wrote about how you “managed not to go to meetings, despite everything, even though you felt a strong urge to do so,” made me want to share with you an excerpt from my book, “From Death Do I Part.”

    “When therapists and doctors don’t know what to do, they always seem to defer to AA. I personally do not like AA. I don’t like the way it makes me feel. I always felt worse about myself, my life, and my future while attending the meetings. Of course, if AA works for someone, then they should certainly use it. I know it’s great for some people, but I have always had trouble with it. And yes, I have worked the Steps completely—more than once. And yes, I have had a sponsor—more than one. And yes, I have tried it as an adult—as well as at age thirteen, fifteen, seventeen, twenty-six, twenty-eight, and thirty. I have done my time with AA.

    Yet that day, crawling on the floor in my own sweat, I felt so desperate that I actually considered going to the only AA meeting in town. I felt that helpless. But I also felt sure that AA would not be any different than it ever was. Even though I was terrified, in withdrawal, and feeling helpless and alone, I just could not bring myself to go to a meeting. I needed more than that.”

    You are not alone in your struggle with the program and its messages.
    Be well. Stay strong,

    • Hi AMY-

      Thanks for writing here. There are many who are buying your book and getting help from your experience in and out of rehab and AA and it NOT WORKING.

      Self Care and being kind to oneself is not an AA tradition. 🙂

  34. Amy thanks for this web site leaveing AA-
    you sound like you been through a lot in AA.
    Thats what it was for me to-
    “I didnt like the way it made me feel”
    and i never will.

      • thankyou massive i shall get that book.i cant believe how happy i am getting LOL i have laughed most of the day. i have good friends in my life today hobbies interests a social life and a spiritual life im happy to be in -wont post name of my church i have found as i dont want to be doing what they do in AA here. I am still searching for right voluntary work but sure i will find it. and so far i havent felt like drinking for wee while. And i have a place (here)to come where i can speak honestly about things and how AA really was for me and have contact with others who were harmed by it-which has stopped me from going out and drinking myself to death and stopped me going nuts ( it really was AA that was causeing my confusion i can see that from others posts.) if i had not came here i would not have known that others were haveing the same or similar problems in AA. And would have been forever confused. Would have had no friends or ones i didnt like being around.been isolated not have any interests or hobbies other than reading AA books. not been able to speak honestly not had any work and always feeling down depressed afraid bad image of myself guilty ashamed no confidence HUMBLED LOL confused trapped. And forever felt like drinking. LOL Im trying to shorten my posts so thats enough take care.

  35. As a result of years of having mental hospitals and prisons flush their toilets into the meetings a.a. is now primarily a forum for rejects to espouse their religious beliefs….what a travesty!

    • Great analogy! Let’s not forget what part AA play’s with their Hospitals and Institutions Division for working with the courts in aiding bringing violent criminals to the rooms of AA.

    • True! But if there were real, scientifically developed help for people with mental health problems combined with drunking/drug use; many would not be “rejects” to the point of hopelessness. I almost fell into that trap, becoming the reject the system told me I was. I try to hide my former status today because I function in the world now. It is way too easy to buy into hopelessness and behave accordingly.

      That being said, criminals shouldn’t be pushed on average people. The penalty for having a drinking or drug problem shouldn’t be destruction at the hands of criminals. It’s just wrong, everyone with any problem gets flushed down the toilet by this system.

    • yes thats one of the other things that confused me.I personally didnt have a religoun while going to AA i had been in a cult when i was younger and after getting out of it didnt want a religoun again. so didnt have one to push. (though since leaving AA i may have found one im okay with). In AA i got confused by the many diffrent what shall i call them lets say diffrent religouse beliefs or suggestions. like ,”you must take the group as your hp” or “you must find god and not relie on people “or god’s up there and not something inside ourselfs .then it be changed to “no gods inside ourselfs ” or , “its god” or “no its not god it’s HP”. Then it be back to “its anything you want it to be.” LOL
      It was years before i heard anyone say AA is a spiritual organistion, when they did i just thought wait a minute when i kept asking if this was a religoun or cult you all told me i was imagining it.And was told its a self help and support group.
      but it is, its a religoun and a cult its both.
      what ever it is it isnt for me thats for sure apart from the fact it didnt work for me to keep me off drink and drugs permanently when i hoped it would. i get too mixed up in there.
      They kept telling me what god was to be for me and kept telling me i didnt have one.i kept telling them i have no religoun dont want one and do have beliefs.
      there were times when some who had a church tryed to get me into there churches. And got angry with me when i said no.
      This may sound strange to some people and it take too long to say why, but i didnt know my rights as a human being untill a few years back, i was just starting to learn about them pre aa via a charity called support and survival but it closed down also AA told me not to go there.I learnt about more of that when i did an NVQ in health and social care,again AA and NA tryed to put me off doing that.They didnt i sat it and passed. I sometimes still forget about my human rights and have to remind myself of them.

  36. been thinking about NA i got a letter from drug treatment agency where i live.
    they want to talk with me as to how im getting on now. I told them i didnt want to talk with anyone from a 12 step i know some of them work there. They NA told me i shouldnt worrie about booze and weed as thats just sweets. And One of the old timer told me i shouldnt bother about weed and booze. however they also told me that if kept tokeing weed i would go back to booze all the other drugs i used and also would start useing drugs i have never used. Also had 2 of there men who were both through the programme come to my door and harrase me when i tried to leave. and had one tell me my problem was that i hadnt talked about abuse from my past and was just full of resentments about it. that it was my fault i was abused as i hadnt talked about it. To this day i dont know how he knew i had been abused in my childhood as i had never talked of it in meetings but had talked of it at other times pre aa.i also was only ever at 3 meetings he was at and while in them didnt share.I did talk about most of abuse incidents in my life pre aa. and also talked in meetings about abuse i had taken in AA.i havent spoke of every incident of abuse in my life but most i have. and i dont think it was resentments around this that made me drink and use weed. i do think (abuse )can cause people to take drugs tho,
    whether or not thats the case for me i dont know.i bought into the disease theory but dont know if that was a good or bad thing for me. thing is and always has been that im not a person thats full of HATE! have i ever felt hate ,yes of course i have. did it last forever no it didnt.The people i felt hate towards at times were some of the people who abused me.the most hate i ever felt was some time after i went to AA/NA and it was some of the folk there i felt it towards. It went away i dont feel hate now.I have also felt hate towards my mother and some of my x partners. it didnt last it went away. time is a healer.truth is to this day i havent felt hate towards most of those who abused me pre aa just some. in my childhood-no i havent and thats maby because i didnt know and dont know who those folk are. in infancy i was abused but dont know by who. so how can i hate someone who i cant put a face to.(i may have buried resentments that havent been delt with i dont know. i just dont belive my drinking was caused through resentment or hate.I didnt and dont feel hate or resentments every minute of every day.And have often drank when im in a good place and happy.

    im not sure about NA and AA cause i heard it in there AA too-about the theory that i drink and use drugs because of hate resentments.
    the last time i drank and many times i have drank i didnt have any feelings of resentment or hate in me.
    the theroy i heard in AA/NA that defects make me drug drink.
    but at same time its a disease that do it. which one is it defects or disease.
    or are defects a disease according to AA NA.
    if defects are a disease and make folk drink drug.
    then everyone in this world should be drunk all the time.because no one has a perfect character.
    there was such a focus on defects in these places its hard to see any good in myself even now after i have left i still have a very self critical
    view of myself or as my mates tell me ” stop pulling yourself down all the time.”

    • @Sally-

      this is a very important point you bring up about “resentments” They are nuts these steppers. Many oldtimers here in LA have never been to therapy even though they were molested as children.

      I myself had extensive therapy (1991-960 and after that I always went to meetings and when a person brought up their rage against an abuser or a parent I always raised my hand and shared about how AA and its 12 steps and Bill And Bob were not talking about using AA’s 12 steps to HEAL CHILDHOOD ABUSE EVER!!!!! It was intended for adults wanting help with alcoholism.

      I shared how I went to therapy, did rage work and that forgiving an abuser is not needed to heal from any childhood abuse including childhood sexual abuse. I did this over 20 years ago and would randomly go to meetings to talk about my discovery. It was then that I saw AA in a new light. This was stage 3 in my early de programming even though I was still I big stepper then. I saw that they were very wrong about anger, their stupid over use of the word “resentment” and forgiving a sexual molester.

      In meetings I could see then that AA was filled with two kinds of people. The Molesters and the victims. It was very hard to attend meetings as I worked on this. I could see who the molesters were. I began to go to less meetings like once a month and I went to small Al ANON meetings.

      But I shared my honesty anyway. I didnt care what they thought. I always attracted a few women to sponsor and I never worked steps with them. I shared all that I learned form COURAGE TO HEAL a great book and what I was doing in therapy. I saw AA a seriously flawed yet I was still drinking the koolaid in some respects.

      The use of the 12 steps for all problems came when they passed the law that made insurance pay for treatment. I can remember when oldtimers were happy to finally be paid for their 12 step work. It was the end of an era where people did it for nothing. Many became counselors with no education at all except an 8 weeks course as a facilitator.
      That probably happened when in the 1980’s all the treatment centers became big biz and they were trying to use 12 steps to fix EVERYTHING. Crazy bastards. LOL

      So sally, keep writing here. The only suggestion I can make is to make a new paragraph when you have a new thought or after 3 sentences hit enter twice. It just makes it easier to read on our computers. It took me a while to get the hang of it myself and please keep posting. We all get better at it as we blog more.

    • anti denial
      theres nothing wrong with you saying my posts are too long for you to read. I have wrote some very long posts.
      But i dont understand where your comeing from in saying my posts are loony.
      they come from my heart they are the truth and the people who set up this blog asked me to blog away.
      if they are too hard for you to understand then all i was saying is you dont have to read them.
      (Loony)-Please dont refer to me in that way again

      • sally- Also, if you start each new sentence with a capital it helps the eye when reading as well to follow your thoughts!

        The paragraph every few sentences helps as well. Its a visual thing…:) I miss spell all the time and anti d lets me know LOL:)

    • okay maby you didnt mean my posts are loony ( i read your ‘s without my specks on -thot it said loony not loooong)LOL they are
      just too long and drawn out for you.
      im not a people pleaser any more so some of my posts will be short some long i write it as it comes. And I was just saying-if you dont like my posts dont read them. Cause im okay with them not being read. I have wrote out most of the shit that went on for me in AA anyway so my guess is my posts will get shorter now.

        • massive am sorry,
          I have just came home and was only going to read posts tonight but read this and want to answer.I thought anti denial was haveing a go trying to stop me disclosing about abuse in AA. I have wrote long and fast as much as i can .Its because im so used to people makeing me keep quiet about it stopping me from talking of these things. Thats why i have wrote it all out as fast and as much as i can.Its like i must get it out before someone buts in and shuts me up.And then thinking thats what anti denial was doing. Maby i am mad LOL a mad head at times.I have to remember this isnt AA.Im out now and thats part of my past. the people i once met there are just people from my past.I also didnt have my specks on and misread anti’s post to me. bit of wariness about not knowing for sure whos who-WHOS IN WHOS OUT! Okay thats all am saying cause my posts have been too long even im bored of them. LOL.
          just one more thing before i go back to reading posts .This isnt to try tell anyone else they should try a church. Theres a time i wouldnt have stepped foot in one. And last thing i want to do is push religioun on anyone. But I went my church tonight and was sat on wall outside waiting for the others and speaking to my dad on my mobile when who drives by but one of my X sponsors. And i didnt feel anything no fear anger nothing at all. Just kept on talking with my Dad. in past in or out of AA i would have felt afraid or something. My guts were always wound up inside around many of the AA’s and mostly around my sponsors-It be like OH no here he comes to have a go at me bout something again. Tell me im wrong about something tell me i have made some lethal mistake tell me how defective i am and how everyone else is okay and trying and doing it and tell me all the praises he had of others then tell me what a F*** up i am. And i didnt have any drink or drugs in me tonight so it wasnt that killing the feelings in me. And my church just seems to be getting more and more right for me too. Maby i have found something i been looking for there i shall wait and see. i shall be posting but not for wee while after this-want to read them all and take in what others are saying cause i have been just talking about me all time but it was something i had to do and couldnt have done anywhere else.

          • Sally- I too went to a Buddhist Temple to help me the last year I was in AA. IT REALLY Helped me! Its really a long drive away but I did the drive about once a month. I incorporated some of the chanting that I still do but I agree, after AA its refreshing to actually go to a real CHURCH ! LOL

            It made me see how AA was such made up Bullshit! Sorry for the swearing but I just can’t help it.

            Again Sally just keep on a writing and getting it out. Lord knows I had many a long post as I left , when I left and the whole first year I left. I was FURIOUS. Just ask some of these bloggers. I called them on the phone yelling and crying about how mad I was wasting all those 36 years in AA. God Dang!!!

            Ask Anti D I called her plenty. 🙂

            ALSO Sally I do think I was experiencing some ptsd after I left because in AA when ever we said sane stuff they had some crack pot answers for why 13 stepping was an outside issue. THEY ARE ABSOLUTELY NUTS!!!

      • I am glad you saw that I did not say your posst are loony. Actually I can’t get through them to tell:). But generally speaking super long multiple posts are harder to read for people. I wanted to read what you were saying, but just trying to let you know, at least for me, when they are very long and go off topic it is difficult to read.

  37. Keeping a private journal was very helpful to me while deprogramming. I didnt have a computer for the first 8 months after leaving. I didnt even know these forums existed. I expressed a lot of my anger and confusion on paper. Also shared with a therapist. Now I have those journals to look back on and see how much I have grown. Im able to laugh now at the hold AA had on me. Also, how ridiculous and distorted your thinking can become. Although, it was not a laughing matter at the time and I was in a very dangerous place mentally. However, I learned very early on in my blogging experience; not to reveal too many personal details about myself on these sites. I believe that if your not careful and you open too much; evil people will use anything they can to insult you and personally attack/hurt you. It happens when your careful.

    Most of the time, I write what I think I want to say in an email draft and then I review it. It helps me narrow down key issues that I think will help someone on the blog. Sometimes I dont even post it the same day. Sometimes not at all but saying it on paper calms me down. 🙂 If I choose to post it, I copy and paste it. Sorry, I have a tendency to get wordy but I like to be as clear as possible. 🙂 Bottom line: writing has been very beneficial to me. I use to think it was bs. I was so angry and depressed a couple of months before I made decision to stop the AA insanity; I had to do something. I continued writing in a journal for a year. The only resentments I wrote about were AA.

    • The thing I found amazing after over 20 years in AA was that I had grown but my “fellows” hadn’t and many of them had serious personality disorders and others were near personality disordered. The effect was that these people were where I was getting all of my resentments from! What a bunch of assholes. No wonder people call AA Assholes Anonymous! Geese, how much BS can I put up with before I just have to get away from it for my own well being? I think AA really harmed me, and I think of all the super depressed over programmed old timers…it’s SAD! Thank God I am not there anymore.

      • yo= yes I agree . AA really harms people in a very deep seeded way. I think it takes a few years maybe 2-3 to completely deprogram. I see it in me after almost 18 months. But it is getting better.

        The anger comes in waves. But it is less and less until I read another horror story. Taking activism action helps me most.

        Exposing it. Blogging. talking on my radio show has been invaluable.

        Talking on the phone to ex steppers. Writing about it.

        thanks for posting! 🙂

  38. sue- something happened to me this past summer where in I saw how deep the brainwashing was. I’m working on getting it out of my brain, spirit, psyche!!!

  39. Massive,

    I can certainly relate to what you are going through. I calculated a while back and I only spent a total of 2 1/2 yrs attending meetings in 3 decades but until I made the decision to say; never again, no matter what, I was not free even when not attending AA. It’s been two year’s since I made that decision and I have grown a lot but I still question myself when I should not. I have had friends call it to my attention. Thank God for good friends. So, be patient with yourself.

    • I think that the programming from AA will subside quickly for many.


      A lot of people didn’t buy all the way into to it from the beginning. I remember as a new AA member watching old timers who did basically nothing but make meetings and I could see how messed up they were- so I drew back from a lot of what they were pushing.

      I also think that getting away from that environment doesn’t mean that everything learned is wrong, either. For example service to help others is of value (that’s my Church’s and Sigmund Freud’s view, not just Bill W.’s.)

      Patience, tolerance, and love are wonderful ideals to be lived up to, but not because the negative reinforcement of the program makes one “front” those behaviors out of fear of rejection, but rather for the good of loved ones and real friends, not a bunch of anonymous nut jobs 20% of whom are career criminals.

      Basically what it comes down to for me is doing the right thing FOR THE RIGHT REASON. AA motivates very negatively and that wears people out. Glad I am away from it now, I really don’t miss it a bit.

      • I agree- I learned some things and not all were bad, but much of the programming is ridiculous and harmful.


        I’m not powerless. I’m not broken. I’m in need of going to meetings forever.

        When they ask “are you in program” I want to bitch slap them and say…..AM I a robot? I need a what ….for what?

        They are not even aware of how much they sound like a cult member sometimes. They think Addiction verbige in hollywood is cute.

        It make s me sick. Yo, I too am glad I am gone. I don’t miss the meetings, I dont miss the literature, and I think the sharing about negativity is toxic. However the last group I went to really just talked about current stuff in their lives and they were pretty sane. If they would have stopped reading all the Chapter 5 etc BS maybe I would not have left. But that is what AA is now. Reading 1939 antiquated rhetoric lies.

        I could not sit and listen to that anymore. IN fact when I heard it for what it really was I had to do a few blogtalk radio shows about it. I needed to vent. There was too much AA garbage in my head.

  40. There are some great posts here. I re read some of my own, many spelling errors.
    Also mistakes.In one of my posts i said “last year a pyciatrist had told me i was heading for a breakdown”. It wasnt last year,cant recall the date and it wasnt a breakdown. What he said was,i could have the full blown relapse meaning go back to when i used class A drugs weed pills and booze daily.
    alternating them or useing them all togther like i did for a period of time in my life. Many years prior to going to AA. And years pre -AA , i stopped class A drugs. Without AA/NA. I dont want to use them. The posts are great here and the videos, which im at last able to watch. Bumped into an AA i once had trouble with today he shouted my name and he wanted to talk. I kept it short to the point and respectfull, so did he.I made it clear I no longer want or need AA if i ever did i know its there but i wont need it. And that i dont want to mix with people from there and wish to keep myself to myself with no grudges towards them. Life’s too short for grudges. What i said to him was the truth. Got to go now have things to do and want to fill out my form for my voluntary work.

    • sally- there was a blog called recovering from recovery that was fantastic for a few months. On it there was a thread called Moderation vs Abstinence. It was the sanest conversation about all of this.

      Glad to see you back here and handling things. I too have had contact with AA old friends. And I even ran into some at the film conference I was just at. One women was so happy to see me and tell me she finally got a year. She said she saw me in the audience ( she was on the panel) and How much I helped her ( she was very genuine and sweet) however, I said quickly waving my hand …” oh no , I dont go there anymore, I left 18 months ago, I don’t believe in that any more. ” and I smiled. She then asked with much fear in her voice….” well. your not drinking , right?

      What could I be drinking? Water, Coffee, why even ask me this questions? WHy are they so fearful? Why do they think it’s any of there bus to even ask me this question. I truly hardly knew her on a personal level.Yet AA and its set up aka sitting in close little rooms , sharing intimate subjects gives them the sensation that we are intimately close. When in fact we really are not . But this is the illusion in AA. That they are our friends.

      I learned a long time ago from a really good sponsor that I never owed anyone an explanation. Back in 1998 I went through a divorce and with that I really went thru some changes. I learned then.

      I OWE NO ONE AN EXPLANATION. If you watch AA ‘ers interact…that’s all they are ever doing. Even some lovely old timers that are no so crazy. I had to re program myself when it came to this and when she fearfully questioned be about me still being “sober” I cringed, smiled and politely just say NO! LOL …I wish I could pull of the old rfr site the blog post I wrote about being abstinent for 37 years but no longer caring about “time”

      The time thing in AA for old timers is such an ego trip. When I celebrated 30 years I really saw it and actually felt it as a burden. It got worse with every birthday till I left with 36 years. Sometimes I wanna go back to young peoples meetings and speak on this topic and tell my truth. Its all Bullshit! It doesn’t matter. ANd AA could really benefit from stop being so judgmental when people drink again, stop called it “slips” stop calling it a “relapse”. Stop giving out the stupid chips. Stop labeling everyone who come and Im AMy and Im an alcoholic gibberish!

      I ran into 2 other steppers at this film conference. Two were peple I didnt know. One stranger asked me if I was “in program” too?

      I said ” OMG NO. I left. I cant stand that whole world. We then conversed but it was a little weird. I explained what I was exposing and he did listen but I could tell he was tad brain washed.

      Thanks again Sally!

      • Massive.
        Thankyou for help with my posts.And for your posts.
        I have managed to read lots of articles and can now watch vidoes. But cant get the radio show yet.

        Was it you that asked what country i live in. I’m Scottish but live in North of England and went to AA in England.

        You deal with these AA people really well.

  41. great posts here. I made mistakes in some of mine. Lot’s of spelling error’s. And In one i said last year a pyciatrist told me i was heading for a breakdown. It wasnt last year and it wasnt a breakdown.Forgot the date and it was full blown relapse. Meaning Class A drugs,canabis,pills and alcohol.Bumped into an AA today he wanted to speak to me. I delt with it rightly and made it clear i no longer want to go to AA or mix with those in it. But hold no grudges. And that is the truth, lifes too short for grudges or for to me to waste any more time with AA or those in it
    Got a form to fill out for my volantry computer is nearly sorted can now watch videos and they are also great.

    • Hi Sally,

      How did the former fellow from AA respond to your rebuff of the program? I haven’t heard a peep from my former “fellows” (whatever the heck that is.)

      Good Lord the years I wasted and the relationships and successes I could have had…

      • Thankyou Yo,
        This will be long.

        I was in the DHSS Im trying to get back into work and also going to Scotland to see my Father who has cancer.(I’m his part time carer).
        So had to go to DHSS to see about things.

        I had to use one of the phone booths. There a row of them I had to sit next to him.
        As I walked to booth he shouted my name
        I ignored him as I sat down.

        He said “Oh well then and hit his hand on booth table.
        I decided it was in my best interests and those around me in DHSS to speak.
        Incase he fired off at me as he has done a few times in past.

        I said ” Hello ….”
        He said “Are you ok”
        I said ” yes, I left AA and trying on my own now and im doing ok how are you ”

        This man has been in and out of AA for 17years.

        He rose his voice said “I drank again couple weeks ago but went back to AA its still same in there they havent moved on.”
        I said “moved on,oh well I have to get on with my call”
        and started to make my call.

        He said “Im just sat here listening to the music meaning music on the phone.
        They put that on till you get put through.

        I laughed (something at one time i would have been afraid to do with him or most at AA.)
        and said “Yeh Batehoven I pay a fiver regular on my mobile just to listen to him” .
        Then I got up and went to counter and asked for a form.

        Then walked over to him and said.

        “I have left AA and just trying to help myself now and im doing ok and no longer mix with those in AA but have no gurdge to you all”
        And as I said this I put my hand out to shake his he took it we shook.

        As we did he said “thats fair enough we all got our own paths to follow ”
        I nodded and said “Take care of your self in or out of AA”.
        and I walked away.

        When I got outside I had a panic attack
        Went for some cigs (been off them for a wee while but Went and got some and went for a cofee and had a Smoke a coffee and clamed down.

        I have stopped smokeing again since.
        (Im not too good at stopping what shall I call them now.
        I shall call them unhealthy habits.)

        I found his response to me different from usual.
        This is the man i had to call police around in past.
        Good for him if AA is helping him with drink and his behviours.

        He certainly seemed more respectfull to me than in past.
        But truth is I really dont care what happens to him AA or anyone in it anymore.
        I dont care if they are liveing like kings or in misery.
        and thats not hate or resentments.

        I dont wish them no harm or luck.
        Im repelled by them .
        I dont think god wants me to go near them.

        • Yo
          I forgot
          He said one other thing.
          When i asked how he was.

          He aslo said “Im just plodding the path to happiness” or something like that.
          It’s something from an AA card.

        • Sally- sorry to hear that your DAD has cancer. My DAD died in 2008 and I had to go to Vegas every month to see him in a Assisted living. Then I finally brought him close to me and in 5 days he passed.

          My DAD hated AA.

          Did the guy you ran into sexually harass you in AA? Why had you called the police on him?

          • Massive,
            Sorry about your Father. My Father dislikes AA and religoun
            He is an Athiest. He dislikes tea totalar’s.That is the slang for abstinant of alcohol.
            The man in question from AA have had variouse problems with for some years now.

            It’s not easy for me to define what ( legally -sexual harrasment is.)
            Did he try or ask for sex Yes -i said no.He didnt grope me or rape me.
            Has he ever threatened me -yes with physical harm but he hasnt hit me.

            the man in question i hope he never comes near me again.
            because i think there is a chance that he could hit me.
            And i dont want that to happen also if he did it would be my fault
            because according to AA it was my fault that i have had problems with him.

          • Massive,
            Sorry about your Father. My Father dislikes AA and religoun.
            He don’t trust tea totlars. Or anyone that preaches God.

            The man in question i went to the police because he was threatning me with physical violence. I have had a few problems with him over the years.
            He hasn’t groped or raped me. He has asked to sleep with me in past i said no.

            This man was drunk some of the times he gave me trouble.
            I try my best to keep away from him .
            AA blame me for the instances where he or others from AA
            have gave me troubles. Some of those who gave me problems were sober AA members.

  42. Ladies Beware! This is my story of being “13th stepped”. I am telling my story in hopes that I may be able to stop at least one woman from going through this very shaming experience. This is not an attempt to bash AA nor am I trying to say that people shouldn’t go. I simply want people, women especially, to know that there are predators in AA and we must protect ourselves.
    I first entered AA in May of 2006 at the age of 26 and God knows I needed A LOT of help at that time! I was a mess. My drinking was causing problems in all areas of my life and I couldn’t stop. I was so happy to have finally found people who had a way out. My family was happy too that there was a group of people who had the answer and who were willing to help me. What they were teaching me in AA was that I am powerless over alcohol and I am insane because I keep doing the same things and expecting different results. The only way I could recover was to find a God, clear the “wreckage of the past” and help others. Well, ok I can do this I thought. It was also recommended that I find a sponsor, someone who could help me work on the 12 steps and they should be someone of the same sex. Over the years I have had a few female sponsors and they were all wonderful ladies that tried to help me. However, I still struggled. I had a difficult time reaching out to them. They all told me that it was my job to call them, that they wouldn’t be calling me. Over the years I have been in and out of “the program” but could never seem to grasp the principles of this so-called “simple program”. I asked too many questions, didn’t believe in God and had a hard time trusting anyone there. The more I tried, the more I failed.
    I met a lot of people in “the rooms” of AA. There are people from all walks of life who attend these meetings and whose lives have been saved because they work the program. Alcoholism kills people and to date there is no cure. I could buy into that one because I have family members who died from Alcoholism. I could also see that I, myself, was dying a slow and painful emotional death. Each time I drank, I lost more of myself. I went from being a happy-go-lucky teenager who just wanted to have fun and fit in to a 32 year old woman who was depressed, and full of shame and self hatred. I kept going to meetings and trying to work the steps to the best of my ability.
    I am a very determined person by nature and I think that’s why I haven’t given up yet. I joined a new group in May of 2012 because my work schedule limited the meetings I was able to attend due to the fact that I work evenings. So, I was going to meetings, sharing and listening to others. Everyone knew that I was going through a hard time and that I am still struggling to get sober time in.
    After a meeting one night, a man I will call Jeff gave me his phone number and told me to call him if I wanted help. I took his number but never called him. I thought to myself, “what does this guy want?” The next week after the meeting he approached me again and said “I’m waiting for you to call me, I told my wife you would be calling”. I still never called the man. You see, I have always been an attractive woman and I have attracted all kinds of predators in my life and I didn’t trust men period. After the 4th time Jeff insisted that I call him he asked me if I would just meet him for a coffee as he just wanted to share with me his “awesome program.” Reluctantly, I agreed to meet him at the coffee shop and the very first thing he said to me was this: “First of all, I want you to know that I am NOT a 13th stepper. I am a happily married man with two children. I have 21 years of continuous sobriety and I have an awesome program. My only intention is to share my program with you and give to you what was freely given to me.” WOW, I thought, this is great. He does just want to help me! I was so glad that this man was for real. Finally! Someone who seems to have a great life and is willing to teach me the way! So, I gave him my phone number and he said that he would call me tomorrow to see how I am. He also gave me some homework to do and reassured me that he could and would help me. I welcomed his help.
    Over the next month, I met with Jeff once or twice a week to work the steps and he even called me everyday. No one from the program ever seemed so eager to help me. I started to feel hopeful because this was a new approach to the program, I had tried and tried many times and my life was still in shambles. I was desperate for any and all help that I could get. Jeff told me that I had to do step 4 & 5 right away if I wanted to get better. So, for the first time I began to write down stuff about myself. They call it taking a “moral inventory”. I had always feared this step because I have been through a lot over the years and I certainly didn’t want to discuss that crap with anyone. I really trusted Jeff by this time so I did it. Steps 4 and 5 were finally done. I had been both searching and fearless (which is what is recommended) and left no stone unturned. The things I shared with Jeff were my deepest, darkest secrets, the shameful things I had done in the throws of my addiction, the things I was afraid of, my weaknesses, the people who had harmed me. Everything. It was hard but I felt good about finally getting it done and over with. Maybe I could move on and things would get better from here.
    Unfortunately, not long after I completed these steps I had a relapse. I ended up in detox and was again emotionally and spiritually broken. I wanted to die. My thoughts were consumed by suicidal fantasies. I called Jeff and told him that I was in detox. I was scared that he would be mad at me and would stop helping me. But no, Jeff told me it was ok and he would never ever stop helping me no matter what. He claimed that my relapse was a positive event that would catapult my recovery. Oh good I thought to myself. I’ve still got hope yet. Jeff called my family and told them that I was ok and assured them that he would help me. They, too, were grateful for him and the fact that he was willing to spend time trying to help me. When I got out of detox he picked me up and we went for a coffee to talk and make a plan. At that time, he invited me to go to his cottage on the bay and told me that I had to get in touch with my higher power there. Good idea, I thought. So Thursday morning I met him at the coffee shop and we drove out to his cottage from there. We brought our big books and went through it, highlighting the relevant parts that I needed to study. The whole time we were studying I was thinking to myself that I was so grateful to have Jeff’s help!
    When we were getting ready to leave Jeff came and sat next to me and said “you are such a wonderful person with so many good qualities, you are so beautiful both inside and out… I love you”. You love me? What? Um, that makes me feel uncomfortable. But, I never said anything. I should have because it was then that he tried to kiss me. I pulled away and started crying. He said “why are you crying?” I said “because I should have known this was going to happen and I believed you when you said that you just wanted to help me!” he said “I do, I do! I’m so sorry! I have defects too you know!” He told me that he would never do that again and he would still be able to help me”. I should have known at that time that it was over. I should have just told him then to never call me again. I didn’t because he already had me sucked in to his promises. I was already dependant on his phone calls, his promises of serenity and his claims that he could make my life better.
    I left there feeling so confused. I didn’t know what to do! I honestly felt like I needed his help or I would die. But deep down inside I felt sick. I had just told this man everything about me. When I got home I cried some more. That night I prayed that this would all go away and Jeff would be able to keep helping me without wanting anything from me. But that’s not what happened. The next night we met at the meeting early and sat in his car to talk. He again apologized. I told him it was ok. Then he told me that he would do anything to have sex with me. I was speechless. He told me that I needed to work on my issues with men and sex and that he could help me through that by allowing him to teach me how to let people love me. He said he was trustworthy and wouldn’t hurt me like so many have before. Without letting on how shocked and disgusted I was, I got out of his car and went and stood by another member because by this time, people were showing up for the meeting. I didn’t get back into his car. Instead, I went into the meeting and took a seat at the back. It was an open meeting that night and Jeff was to be the guest speaker. The meeting began and my mind started racing. It was surreal to me. Of course, I am NOT going to have an affair with this man. As “sick” as I was, I knew that this was WRONG. Jeff spoke that night at the meeting and the more he talked the more I realized that I had been fooled. He spoke about how he had an honest program and that he worked had everyday to keep his defects in check. I looked around the room and I could see how engrossed everyone was in his every word. I could see how much of a con man he was! I wanted to get up and tell everyone that he was lying! I wanted everyone to know what he had just proposed to me in the car! I didn’t though. I left the meeting and cried the whole way home. Now what do I do? The next morning I talked to my parents and told them that Jeff wasn’t my sponsor anymore and this is the reason why. It turned out that I didn’t have to do anything because my father took it upon himself to call Jeff up and threaten him. He was not to call me or go around me at all or dad would call his wife. So that was the end of Jeff, or so I thought.
    Since that night I have been feeling hurt and angry. I still can’t believe that I didn’t see through his lies. I am angry and embarrassed that I ever did a 4th and 5th step with this predator. Thankfully, I got a new sponsor who is FEMALE and who is willing to help me. I have been trying to move past this but Jeff has recently been trying to call me and I refuse to answer because I don’t want to talk to him or see him. I feel scared to go to meetings now because I don’t want to run into him but I can’t stop going to meetings because apparently AA is the only path to freedom! Plus, I don’t want to give that man the satisfaction of knowing that he messed with my head. The Monday that just passed, he showed up a meeting and just stood outside of car and stared at my car. I went into the meeting and he never came in. He called me 5 times on Thursday and finally left a message that he wanted to “make amends to me”. I talked to my sponsor about this and she said that she would call George, who is actually Jeff’s sponsor, and just ask him to tell Jeff to “leave me alone”. When she did, Jeff’s sponsor said that she shouldn’t believe me, that I have a history of doing things like this and not to let me fool her. Jeff would never do anything like that. His reputation is impeccable. I was and still am shocked about what George said! It’s NOT TRUE! So now my sponsor tells me that I have to LET IT GO! And she is right. I have to let it go… and I will. I just wanted to write this experience out so that perhaps I can warn other women who might be hurting and desperate for help. Do not be fooled by men claiming to have a great program and claiming that they can help you. There are predators out there who want nothing more than to feed their own ego and try to get vulnerable women to satisfy their sick, uncontrollable urges.

    • You wrote

      ” I feel scared to go to meetings now because I don’t want to run into him but I can’t stop going to meetings because apparently AA is the only path to freedom!

      Here is a wake up call to you- AA is Not- I repeat NOT the only path to freedom and sobriety! It concerns me that you would still subject yourself to the sexually predatory AA meetings, because you think there is no other way. This is very sad. Not only have you been a victim of the sexually predatory AA members in the rooms, you have been mentally brainwashed into believing the absurd statement you made. This is what cults do to people. Make you dependent on the cult, making you feel you cannot make it without them.

      Also you state that alcoholism has no cure. No this is such total bull, I cannot even believe you said it. Once you quit, you are no longer addicted. There are many cure’s for addiction. People quit drinking, smoking, doing drugs, eating unhealthy foods, quit internet addiction and gambling. So you just do not know what you are talking about, with the exception that AA sexual predators that are in the rooms. Sorry you went through what you did. But the fact that you are still there is very disturbing. People have been raped and killed by AA and NA members too. You cannot always protect yourself in the rooms the way it is structured.

    • If that happened to me, I would add dates locations and witnesses to the above documentation of sexual harrassment, us the testimony to get a restraining order, inform the perp’s wife, and the group at large- as well as intergroup- in writing of the events.

      • Yo-good advice- forget about letting it go honey! Document the sexual harassment of this AA Sponsor, inform the wife etc. like Yo said.

        AA is famous for telling women to forget about sexual abuse. They are only protecting their name. They make me sick.

    • Hi Kelley,
      Yo and AntiD are totally right. You need to treat this “13 stepping” just as if it happened at work. It’s sexual harassment and nothing else.
      I also want to say to you that you described a 13th step experience I had in AA when I was 27. Same MO but for me my perp was my sponsor as I am a lesbian and my sponsor was too. She waited until I had done my 4th and 5th step with her and had gotten dependent on her then she made her sexual move. That experience cost me dearly in self esteem and you are right it also caused me a lot of shame. I am just recovering from that experience now at age 51 so I suggest you get out of AA now. They are perpetrators and yes they are everywhere but in AA it’s a different story as we are vulnerable and the AA cult tells us to trust and open up to members with time. It’s a total setup.
      It is possible to be abstinent and not be in AA. That would be a starting point to get rid of the AA brainwashing. Good luck and hope you stick around this site.

    • Kelly,

      I think that you are in a very vulnerable state. Documenting this incident and concentrating on any legal battle would be too emotionally draining. I know that I couldnt do it if I were in the same position right now. Im not at all criticizing anyone elses advice to you. I just think that the most destructive thing may be; that you feel you had a part in this. The only thing that anyone can hold you responsible for is that you trusted this individual. Thats what we are taught in AA. If there in the program and especially sober all those years; your safe.

      I was afraid to criticize AA when I gave it up. That was the fear that was instilled in me by everything that was said there. I was happy but I kept it to myself; because i thought if I gave my real opinion and criticized AA, something bad would happen to me. You had a serious drinking problem and believe me, so did I. However, I finally realized that my mental attachment to the cult was just as serious if not more so.

      I dont have a problem with believing in a higher power but that power gives me the strength to determine right from wrong. I do have a problem with the mind control in AA. What happen to you was wrong and someone in the program advising you to dismiss that violation was even worse.

      Your post really touched me. Have you thought about finding a therapist to talk to. Just make it clear that you have been hurt by AA. Dont let anyone tell you that it was in any way your fault. You might want to show them what you posted on this site. I made it clear when I researched therapy that I wanted no part of AA. Sounds like that is not the case with you at this time. Thats what you need to determine with someone who really understands what goes on there. There are professionals out there that do not promote AA. Hope to see you back on the blog.

      • Documenting in a journal could still be an option until she decides what direction she wants to go. There are different options to handle sexual harassment other than a legal battle.
        Her sponsor is telling her to repress her anger, do nothing and let it go. What if the guy continues? Then what? It is good to keep your options open. It is not all or nothing.

        Sexual harassment should not be swept under the rug by AA sponsors.

    • Kelly- you are not at fault. The AA nazi’s are out of their minds.

      your instincts are right.

      Goodnight. I will bb in the am to write more.

      Perhaps you could check out the Smart RECOVERY Website and see that other sane choices are available.

    • kelly- this is a long post so I am going to address one issue at a time

      you said ” What they were teaching me in AA was that I am powerless over alcohol and I am insane because I keep doing the same things and expecting different results. The only way I could recover was to find a God, clear the “wreckage of the past” and help others.

      This is absolutely not true and part of what I see is so wrong and damaging about AA and its belief system. This is part of why I left 18 months ago.

      I am not powerless. I stopped drinking on my own 2 weeks before I went to an AA meeting. That was 1975. AA was more laid back then. NO ONE talked about 90 meetings in 90 days. Thats the influence of treatment and the military using AA as a dumping ground in 1980 when Insurance began to cover rehab. this would be an interesting part of the story that I could cover in my movie. Were the senators who wrote the bill in AA?

      That part of the 12 steps was the hardest part for me to swollow. Are you aware the book was written by a crazy ass Bill Wilson who was so depressed and a sexual predator. That he did NO!!!!!!!!!!research. He just made this shit up as he went along. NO ONE has researched what is read in CHapter 5 at every meeting. Insane. Really you are insane. When I went to AA a pyschiatrist told me that no I was not insane. Insane was what was in the Crazy Wards in Mental Hospitals. I was 18 years old. He was right. SO if you were insane, a bunch of nonprofessionals who are religious …by the way AA is a MADE up religion….are going to give you advice? Really? Thats kind of scary. Have you thought about that?

      That finding GOD was the answer to recovering. DID you ask them how long it was going to take to recover? DID they tell you they expect you to go to meeting for life and that you would be in the recovery community for life cause thats what they do.

      That its a “process” really? Who makes this shit up I ask myself now. Are you aware that millions have gotten help from SMART REcovery, SOS, RR and Life RIng and Harm Reduction that requires a religious dogma to recover? Not true. THAT really makes AA a religion and so many non believers stop with no help from 12 step.

    • PLease contact me directly. I will give you my phone number . This is Absoutely Horrible what happened to you. It happened to me on a didnt scale by none the less horrific.

      You should go to the local media and expose him and what is being done in AA. I will fly to you and I will go with you to the media. This needs to come out NOW in a big way. AA is and has become a cesspool of predators.

      I am working on exp[osing all of this in A DOCUMENTARY FILM that I have been making for 1 year. I was in AA for 36 years. Contact Don Champion From ABC NEWS in DENVER. He reported on this. He to date is the only reporter on camera who will expose this. ALthough there are a few serious Journalists are are finally reporting on this story in AA and NA.

      We are here to support you. You are not crazy. HE is. THEY are!!!

    • you said So now my sponsor tells me that I have to LET IT GO! And she is right. I have to let it go… and I will.

      REALLY your sponsor said to let it GO? If you were at work, if he was your therapist which in fact he was acting in that sort of position. if he were your priest would you let it go.

      You can sue him civilly in court for sexual harassment. I would find a better sponsor who tells you to kick his ass in court. You are not the first or last person to have this happen to It is happening every day in every city Time 30 all over the USA, Canada , and The UK.

      Please listen to my podcast on its the episode on 13 stepping that I did in March or april of 2011. Kali tells a story that you will relate to …but honestly…your story is worse.

  43. ‘I truly hardly knew her on a personal level.Yet AA and its set up aka sitting in close little rooms , sharing intimate subjects gives them the sensation that we are intimately close. When in fact we really are not . But this is the illusion in AA. That they are our friends. ‘

    Ain’t it the truth…

    • So true. The fake hugs certainly stopped after I left. They can’t avoid me quick enough now! Maybe because they know I have a brain and I won’t stand for their 12 step nonsense anymore.

    • Yep, oh so close to people when you try to say everything the AA way so they won’t shake their finger at you and point out what you are doing wrong in the program. When you try to hid difficulties in life so these close friends won’t tell you what YOUR part in it is.

      What a good way to develop those personal relationships!

  44. Kelly and all, AA is creeperville; even the best intentioned men there creep about like depraved little horn-farmers. Many of the women are no exception; AA is the only place a woman has ever come up to me to tell me she wants me inside of her! The meetings here are sexual powder kegs; I have not yet met a person who disagreed with me when I said “AA is a hot bed of sexually charged tension”. This sharing of intimate thoughts hits it on the head; it opens the door to intimacy perceptions. The sexual advances are just the tip of the betrayal iceberg in AA. The main consideration for me is that I don’t go back to my life of irresponsible drinking. I use sites like this one and HAMS harm reduction program to eliminate or reduce the harm done by alcohol. There are hundreds of helps out there other than AA; make yourself aware of them. I was in danger when leaving AA because I wanted to drink to get the asshole off of me. This would have been a bad move and could have caused dangerous drinking.
    Thank God you didn’t have sex with him, he probably has AIDS. Heaven knows, when we are down and feeling worthless it is easy to mistake sexual advances for a validation of self worth.

    • @dislcosure- Many of the women are no exception; AA is the only place a woman has ever come up to me to tell me she wants me inside of her! The meetings here are sexual powder kegs; I have not yet met a person who disagreed with me when I said “AA is a hot bed of sexually charged tension”. This sharing of intimate thoughts hits it on the head; it opens the door to intimacy perceptions. The sexual advances are just the tip of the betrayal iceberg in AA

      omg what a statement! Can I use this in my film? I think I can cause its anonymous and posted on the internet. But I would like your permission. Also …it seems you are in Los Angeles area? Do you want to meet with me and AMy Lee COY. My husband and a few others wanna have a meet up with ex steppers.

  45. I just want to make something clear. I am in no way suggesting that what happen to Kelly should be dismissed. Talk about drive someone to drink. I said that his behavior was wrong (actually disgusting) but it seems that Kelly does not completely realize that the atmospere in AA and the misleading trust factor there makes AA responsible to a large degree IMO. No one in AA will validate the injustice done to her. Thats why I suggested she take her well written post and get some real help.

    I think keeping a journal is a great idea. I posted a comment a few days ago about the benefits of writing to myself. So many times when things like this happen, the victim thinks; what did I do to cause this. A sponsor in AA will only reinforce those distorted thoughts. I had something very similar happen to me in the work place but until I got it straight in my head that the man was a creep of the worst kind and taking advantage of me; I was crippled to do anything about it. I apologize if my comment came across the wrong way. I guess I was concentrating more on AA not getting a pass on this in Kellys mind first. What she does after that is up to her. Im sure its obvious to Kelly that we all care about what has happened to her.

    • I was just trying to point out there there are varying degrees of dealing with sexual harassment. That it does not have to be all or nothing.

      The sponsor telling her to just let it go angered me. Not to say there is not a time and place for letting things go, but AA is so good at telling people to repress their anger and let crimes against that members commit go unpunished.

      • anti d- the sponsor is covering it up as usual . Let it go . REALLY… the sponsor GOD, does she think its 1964 and she is playing a part in the TV show MADMEN? I say tell the sponsor she is out of her F####king mind.

        AA women need to stop taking this shit and take their asses to court.

  46. If AA is a mental health venue then it is completely inappropriate for people to engage in sexual behavior there.
    If AA is a mutual aid support group with religious tones and cult characteristics then it may be appropriate to use the groups to find sex partners.
    The problem is that all sides disagree on what AA is because it is different things to different people. This makes it inappropriate for the courts and hospitals to send people to AA.
    Bottom line; vulnerable and incapacitated people go to AA for help and are told it is the only way for them to solve their problem. This is untrue and cruel regardless of what AA is.
    Ambiguity in the traditions, steps, and autonomy of the groups will forever keep AA from committing to any specific description or label.
    AA is not a safe for anyone without this disclosure from the podium at every meeting!!!

  47. IMO AA is a religious and psychotherapy cult. Nothing more. AA uses “alcoholism” as the hook and as a cover. If it had anything to do with helping people stop drinking (and staying stopped) then, as an organization, it would be more involved and interested in different and better addiction treatments. If the AA machine cared about it’s members they would have safety measures in place. AA is a cult and only cares about money and power. People who buy into the system get addicted to the power the cult gives them. This is why AA is so crazy and unsafe.

    • Etp,

      You are so correct when you say that the ones that stay in the program get addicted to the power they perceive they have. The people that stick around have huge egos and the program is the only place that they can feel important. The majority of them have never moved on with their lives. A lot of them don’t hold down a job and the ones that do just can’t get the rush that they get by bossing people in the program around. I came to notice that sponsorship was invented to feed these egos. I was in the program for only aprox. 5 years and use to cringe when I saw these people give others ( sponsees) advice when they couldn’t really manage their own lives.

      • Frank,

        So true. The time thing in AA is a huge power trip for a lot of mentally ill people who don’t drink but stay warped. Having time and bragging about it is like bragging about breathing.

        Frankly I never got any benefit from sponsoring- it was a pain in the ass.

        So I just basically gave it up.

        AA’s origionally “sponsored” people to come to meetings- just like joining a club requires a sponsor- and to check out new “propects” and see if they were recruitable and safe enough to be brought into people’s private homes where meetings were held in the early years.

        • Thanks Yo,
          I had never heard how Sponsorship came about, makes sense. It sure has evolved into something entirely different.

          I never could celebrate my anniversaries in the program, it was like making a big deal out of behaving like you are expected to in the first place. Kinda like you said ” bragging about breathing”

    • @etp
      said ” IMO AA is a religious and psychotherapy cult. Nothing more. AA uses “alcoholism” as the hook and as a cover. If it had anything to do with helping people stop drinking (and staying stopped) then, as an organization, it would be more involved and interested in different and better addiction treatments. If the AA machine cared about it’s members they would have safety measures in place. AA is a cult and only cares about money and power. People who buy into the system get addicted to the power the cult gives them. This is why AA is so crazy and unsafe.”

      this post rocks. Can I use it in my FILM!!!!

  48. Anti D,

    I have no spell check on my computer.
    I have alway’s had problems with spelling and grammer.
    My first language is Doric i am a Highlander. No one here, where i live would understand me if i spoke Doric.

    I have moved around lived in other places, (also another country,)since i was 9 years old. I speak mostly English now. Infact i have forgot most of my own dilect. My English speaking is okay (Though some people still complain about that. ) I have never been great at spelling.

    My Father was a dunce at school do you know what that means! My Father is dislexic he cannot read or write welL. But he could read the map of the sky, He was a sea man.I come from low class i was brought up low class moved around, homeless at times in my childhood. Scooling disrupted.

    I went into further education later in my life and have helped myself somewhat.

    My grammer always gets me in trouble.Sometimes my dialect gets me in trouble and sometimes my swearing . i got the belt across my hands for things such as this in school but that didnt make no difference.I just kept makeing mistakes.

    One day soon when im back working i may be able to afford one of those fancy new computers that have spell checks and everything on them but right now i make do with what i have got.

    My old computer thats on the blink my pay as you go dongel my bad spelling and my broken English.

    But the good news for you is that you wont have to put up with that anymore.
    And wont have to feel annoyed again.

    My computer’s really is on it’s last legs its sending posts twice and not posting them, crashing all sorts of problems with it. Im going to send this one if it will go. Then i doubt if i will be posting again for sometime.

    Take care everyone.

  49. Dictionaries come in quite handy Sally! I love them myself. It is a free way to learn English, the meaning of words, and of course spelling. Also in the comment section here it puts a red line under a word that is misspelled and I believe if you right click on the word the proper spelling pops up. I have found it very handy!

    • Thankyou Anti D,

      I’m borrowing a good dictionary today from the library. My spelling and grammar need sharpening. I don’t need too use too many words or sentence’s when writing a post.

      I can’t promise that all my post’s will be short.
      It depends what I’m writing about, how long it will be.

  50. AntiD

    Im trying the right click option. Wow thanks, I did not know that. Shoot, that will save me a lot of time. 🙂 Me like!!!!

    Hi Sally,

    Would that option help you. I hope so and Im sorry that your computer is going on the blink. Do you have access to a library. This is my first computer and I used the library until I could afford one. Take Care

  51. Im in the library. Havent been able to use my computer for day’s it’s knackered.
    I’m going to Scotland shortly, for a while.I’m going to keep contact with this web site, when i can.

    • Hi,
      I’m In Scotland now, in the library.Just read recent article about the young girl being murdered by her AA boyfriend.
      I’ts really sad that this happend to her.

      I’m trying to find a caravan park or private rent so i can come here to live. I have too much fear around some people from AA, where i live in England. Even though i have left AA, he or some of them could still harrass me.

      I really feel that if i hadn’t left eventually something like that would have happend to me to. I’m not young and didn’t have a boyfriend in or out of AA.I was afraid of being battered by some who said they were friends.

      The police have a record of one incident.

      • Good idea Sally, it’s so important to feel safe. I moved myself each time I left AA. The geographical distance does help to make a new start and break away from the cult.

        • Thankyou,

          Didn’t manage to get a place up in Scotland,
          Back home now.I have put in for another place round here. Hope the council move me.

          I have been searching for a place for some time, thought i had one a couple of months back started packing, but it fell through.

          Then thought maybe i should just move back to my homeland, be well away then. and would also be closer to my Father and could help him more often.

          However the deposit for rental places was too high for me.
          I was up there helping my Dad, I go there every few months.

          It did me a lot of good to get away.I was getting up early, going to bed at a decent time, eating well, sleeping well. No nightmares.More energy. Didnt want as much weed, didnt drink.

          I got a call about the voluntary work i put in for with the hospice. Going to talk with them tomorrow. The place I put in for is near the hospice,so it would be great if that works out for me.

          Did you move away because of harrasment from AA?
          No ones really been harassing me this time that i left AA , but i have had some harassment in the past. Another time i left. And while attending there have been things that have happend that i find a little disturbing but not like the things that went off in the past.

          The man who intimadates me at times, and not long before I left AA i worry about him.
          He has threatned me when he has been out of AA and drunk and also while he was there and sober.

          I have PTSD.(due to abuse in past ) and it seems to get worse when im in AA or around this area.
          When I go away for a day to the country or ocean or a week to my Dads
          I feel better, not so stressed.
          Its hard to relax round here. but in time, and as i start to build my new life up
          i will be okay.

        • Thanks,

          I’m back in England now.I go to Scotland regular to help my Father.
          I have been searching for a new place for some time.Thought I had one down here in England a couple of months back,started to pack but it fell through. Can’t go back to my Homeland either the deposit for rental were too high for me.

          However I have put in for place down here again and hoping to hear from the council soon.
          Also got a call to go tomorrow to see about volunteer work that i put in for.
          A move and some work will help.

          Did you move because of harassment from AA?
          I have been harassed at times both while attending and when trying to leave.
          This time things have happend that have disturbed me but not like the harassment in the past.

          I worry about the man who at times has intimidated me, he has threaten me when he has been drunk and when he has been sober.

          When i go away to my Fathers for a week, or to the ocean or countryside for the day i feel better. my time up North did me good i went to bed early slept well no nightmares. Got up early, ate well ,had more energy I felt happy.Not as stressed. I have PTSD.

          Im sure with time and as i build up my new life i will start to feel more relaxed.
          I have a mobile i shall call the police if i need to.
          Hope things are going good for you.

          • I would not say I moved because I was being harassed by AA members. I moved for job/life change reasons but I can say that the geographical change did help me to feel safer. It’s nice to be in a new area where no one thinks of me as diseased. Although I did go back to drinking the first two times I moved which led me back to AA this third time, which was this past summer, I am making sure that does not happen again.
            Sounds like your trip to your father’s was good. Glad to hear it. Good luck finding a place to live. Good idea to keep the phone handy in case that guy bother’s you.

      • Hi sally- I just saw that your back. I was out of commission for a couple weeks with some health issues but I know this is a horribly sad story. How is it up in Scotland? I have always wanted to see the country side.

        It’s just unreal how these steppers talk about God and their steps but they can be so abusive and in this case …killers. I think they are very dangerous. Its like they are a mixed bag of innocent good real people, killers, rapists and mobsters.

        Anyway, glad you have a library to go to so you can communicate with us.

        • Thanks Massive,
          Hope your health is okay now and not anything too bad.
          The steppers, yes it’s not a good thing, for everyone. Perhaps this stepping sponsoring thing is good for some, and perhaps there are some steppers who are okay, im not saying it can’t help some, and some cant help. But who knows who they are being stepped by, or who knows who they are stepping or sponsoring.
          I’m glad i didnt sponsor anyone. I recall a key worker from the drink drug agency here asking me once if i had ever sponsored I said “I hope i never have to I wouldn’t want to be responsable for someone elses life – i don’t know enough about these kind of things i could do or say something that could harm them. I’m ill with other problems and have my own issues and i relapse all the time.”
          When i was told i may have to sponsor a child molestor in the future. And told by one of these folk who told me this, that he had refused to sponsor and step a child molester in the past but the child molester later died drunk and it was his fault because he had refused to work with this person. In other words he was made to be responsable for a child molestors death by refusing to work with him. I knew for a fact that there was more wrong with AA than i had originally thought.
          And i pondered on what this young man had told me later, after i left AA. What if he had done what had been asked of him, and stepped sponsored the child molestor, i wonder. There are many bad things that could have happend to him or his family. It could have sent him back to drink maby. Or it may have helped him in some way. No one will ever know.
          A murderous insane sponsor could turn on a sponsee, a gay rapist sponsor could rape a sponsee.
          A fraudster sponsee could rip off a sponsor, a violent sponsee could batter a sponsor.
          A traumatised member such as i was (I’m a lot better now thank god) -could turn on another member. Thats another thing i feel lucky around that i myself didnt loose complete control of my temper. Or become so stressed out, panicked that i didnt kill someone in self defense. It’s a well known fact that traumatised women who have been beaten are in fact also dangerouse after the event. The times i was being threatened by other members i could have lost it. I thank god i didnt. At the most i have shouted out loud a few times in meetings thats the extend my temper went in those years.

          • Sally hi- Im getting better with each day. Thanks.

            Sponsoring a Child molester? Wow ….they really are the sickest group of people around. I guess we’re lucky we escaped! Nice to see you back. and blogging.

  52. Sorry about that,
    As you can tell back on my old broken computer
    thought my first post hadn’t sent. And they are both long.
    Aw well i did try-but this machine just don’t work for me.LOL
    take care.

  53. Hello to all three who posted to me.

    Pepper spray is illegal here. But i had some womens defence lessons some years back and use things they taught me. like, when walking on the street day or night,haveing my keys in my hand in between my fingers, can’t show you but it’s makes for a handy defense weapon and legal.

    I would fight tooth and claw and use anything that came to hand to defend myself these day’s.Hope it don’t come to that.

    I think even a move in the city i live in will do me good. They won’t have my address.My moveing isnt all to do with them though there are other reasons i want to move.

    I read the post around the AA man who wrote that e-mail to Massive i think it was,he’s wrong you have helpd me!And his verbal abuse towards you is well out of order.

    I bumped into one of my x sponsors recently he laughed when i told him i was going to a church now and that it helped me. Not sure whats funny about that didnt get the joke myself.I have never laughed at him or any of them for going to AA, thats the truth. Though now,I do laugh at myself for haveing gone.

    I move from states of feeling anger around it,to trying to see the funny side of my going,to wishing i had never went to being glad i went and glad i left.

    He said he went to AA for himself (I thought i had went for myself too mayby not, not sure what he ment by that I didnt ask)I just said well as long as its helping you thats good.And i told him god was my sponsor now.
    And if he wants to laugh about that too well glad i made someone laugh.

    That sponsor and i didnt see eye to eye on what my higher power or god was to be. He wanted me to take the group as god at one time.He often pulled down other religouns and peoples beliefs. I took it on the chin at the time, and also joined in a couple of time’s in jest about religoun with him but even when i did that i felt it was wrong. inside i felt he was wrong.

    I dont think theres anything wrong with makeing the odd joke around religoun comics do it all the time on TV and i can laugh about things like this too.Billy Connely is always takeing the mick out of religoun and i laugh at him.So no harm in laughing i suppose. It’s just it would have been nice if he had just been glad for me .As opposed to laughing.

    When i was going to AA I didnt think it was right of him to pull people who had a religoun down the way he did at times. I recall him haveing a right go at a bhudist once in a meeting really nasty with it he was around buddha.It bordered more on abuse than jokeing or being funny like .Im okay with him though, he was okay most of the time.He isnt one of the members who harrased me or anything like that.But I still dont want any contact, i bump into them at times, i shall get used to it.

    I’m not wary of everyone who attends AA,I also liked some of them. But even those i had problems with if AA is helping them good luck to them. If they cant be glad for me thats there problem.

    Im happy with the little church i found i enjoy being there and like the people, i had been there in the past a few times infact first time i went i was 13 years old.But knew nothing much about it and had only went there a few times pre AA and once a few years back when i was out of AA.I have also started voluntary work today in the hospice charity shop and i enjoyd every minute of it.

    Scotland has magical glens forests mountains and locks. beautifull.However it isnt home to me anymore i have lived in England a very long time now and this is home to me. I do love the time i spend with my Father, he’s anti AA and anti god ,yet we can discuss these things together without any
    argument between us.My Father and i disscus politics god drink all sorts and we never argue about it. even tho at times our views differ.I shall miss him when his numbers up but i try not to think about that he isnt dead yet !

    Thanks for all the posts.I like reading them.

  54. Just a quick post.Useing a friends lap top.
    Read some good honest posts.
    I’m still free,and getting on with my life.
    Hope you are all doing okay.

  55. Hi i’m new to this blogging thing. I left a meeage on one of blog things here and could not find it. But I’m glad i’ve found this web site. Been in AA since 2001 but only have 6 months sober. Like most of the posts i’ve read here I’ve been having problems with them saying our way is the only way. Every time I hear it I think nonsence, there have to be other ways to soberity. I also don’t like their work the steps or die speeches I hear in almost every meeting. But anyways glad to be here.

  56. HI alt a – on the right side of the main page of this blog is shows RECENT COMMENTS. There you can see which thread someone is posting on and who is posting. this was you can see where you psoted last and if someone responded to you.

    Good luck.

  57. Charlie Sheen certainly had a meltdown last year, but he got one thing right, AA members are trolls, for sure! My name is Walter, and you can contact me anytime @321 986-7861. All the best.

    • Hi walter. I remember you from the stop13 step blog. Weren’t you treated like crap by a stepper social worker at the VA in MA?

  58. It is like having the blinder peeled back from one’s eyes to read all of the accounts of people who have left AA. I have had my head so far up AA’s ass for the past almost 2 years and I did not even realize it. All I cared about was getting my Sponsor and Grand Sponsor’s apporval–which was IMPOSSIBLE to get. But I kept trying despite the fact that I could never go to the ANY LENGTHS that they and the Big Book required. I see that I am not the only one who knows the deep isolation and surreal feeling of being newly emerged from AA. They always talk about people leaving and being fortunate enough to return one day IF they don’t die OUT THERE. I will never go back to AA. I feel BLESSED to have discovered this site. I needed it…like rain in the desert.

    AA is a HUGE Beast though…more powerful than I ever imagined.

    • “They always talk about people leaving and being fortunate enough to return one day IF they don’t die OUT THERE.”

      Out WHERE?!

  59. My story seems sadly too common….
    My exgirlfriend is secratery at a typical Friday night lead (some parts of the world call them speaker meetings i think?) meeting. Last Friday it was snowing rather hard and this oldtimer we’ve known for two years offered to let her smoke a cigarette in his van. This man isn’t exactly one of the deified oldtimers, but as somebody with 11 years he is certainly viewed as a success story.

    But you all know how it went if you’ve read this page. He tried to rape her basically, but she was able to get away, and she told me what happened later that day. Naturally, although she is my ex, I called the police. I found out this man is a registered sex offender. She was pissed when she found out that I called the police however and refused to cooperate.

    Her sponser told her to pray for him, and keep her distance. I tried to get him arrested (The cop told me it was 4th degree felony cuz of his prior record). Yet her sponser makes it seems like I am the crazy bitter one for wanting this asshole in jail! Pray for him?? I get forgivness and all but they are going to let this man walk free, continue to go to meetings, continue to meet young women (he is 60, she is 20), and they don’t want any one to know what he did!

    Never once did my ex or her precious sponser even question that perhaps AA is the problem, or get the fact that this is a criminial who committed a crime…..I guess tho by pointing the finger at him I got “three pointing back” and I’m just too “resentful” and blah blah blah…sorry for the rant guys

    • Hi Naterade,

      This is the time. You have the opportunity to expose him. AA and its traditions do not supersede the LAW!!!

      I am sorry you are not supported by at least a few sane AA persons. I had a few around me before I left.

      Can you post his name please, first and LAST, and the city so other woman can beware of him. May I make a suggestion. IF we start to out them things will change. If the police wont help us we will help us.

      Contact the FBI and file a complaint. Even though they may tell you that she has to do it. He attempted to rape her and he is a sex offender. OMG!!!

      I have not been the only one calling the FBI. …but it will help. OR contact me at

      Also you should know there are 4 reporters who are wanting to talk to women who have had this happen. One is a newspaper reporter, one is a major TV reporter, another is a writer for the Huffing ton Post and on is from a National TV Investigating Show.

      You can give me his name and city and I’ll do it for you if you don’t want to do it. But you know he should not be hidden in AA. He will rape another young women.

      Karla Brada was murdered by a guy who was court ordered to AA and and her parents are suing AA in NY and AA in Santa Clarita.

      PLease feel free to contact me

      • In 1975 Doug Allman in Hawaii 13 stepped me and hundreds of newcomer AA woman. He did this for possibly 2 decades. He is no longer an AA member. I guess he ran out of newcomers to use. for other stories like this . Elizabeth posted a man name Joe in Costa Mesa and The Laguna Club I hear are really messed up.

  60. this was posted on another blog

    by anonymous. It seems he is leading SLOA meetings in Costa Mesa in the early morning.Look Out at The Canyon Club in Laguna.

    Here is part of one of her posts…

    My partner, Joseph Lawerence Bourke, has AIDS and is an admitted sex addict AND sits and leads meetings like a sociopath “painting this amazing picture” ….I have a book to write, but put it this way, he is a Predator extreme, claims to have all this time, but he lies about everything else how do we know that is true? But despite the AA Dogma, he is a straight up murderer and has been at it for 20 years and I just saw him last week and confronted him in an alley in Costa Mesa CA and he said “this is my place..” as in, if I came there for
    AA …it was a problem..Even though I only ever share in a general way and have not spoke about him there YET..I will …He threatened to “knock my teeth down the back of my throat ” if I went there….Because sex addicts and sociopaths feel massive “threat” in their own heads to anyone who reveals the mask they hide under…

  61. Another financial Predator outed from up north in California.

    Donita wrote : “It isn’t slander to tell the TRUTH. Denise Kawkeka is a Financial Predator in the Program of Alcoholics Anonymous at the UFG.

  62. Some genuine people I have met in the rooms but it has damaged me more than help me – I cant go into it massive but did not have a computer when I went ten years ago, wish I had: would not have gone, I am from england would appreciate others that have wasted the prime years of their lives and the cons so big time outweighed the pros for me. Respect to the people it has worked for.

  63. Whoa!

    Your story is sadly too common Naterade. Yet this story must be told over and over and over again since it keeps happening over and over and over again. If being a female/or minor newly approaching AA is synonymous with putting one in danger of molestation, rape, murder and abuse, then we need to make it Our Mission to let people Know & BEWARE.

    If I had been aware of the fact that AA Sponsor were known for abusing AA Sponsees, I would have been spared the abuse I have suffered. I just had no idea. And as a molestation and rape survivor if I had known how prevalent it is to mandate predators to these meetings I simply NEVER would have gone to them. I honestly still kick myself for not having my common sense kick in. Red flags were always their, but the love-bombing and protective wing of my sponsor(s) kept me dumbed down.

    Place this sexual predator’s name in Family Watchdog; it should show up since he is a registered sex offender. We will have his picture, profile, location and history of offenses. He is the link:

    All newcomers, should they insist on attending AA meetings ought be advised to make themselves familiar with the faces on this site of predators in and around their vicinity while attending these meetings. Should an offender show up there, they will recognize them.

    That is only an initial precautionary measure.

  64. I think this needs to be here too.

    I was responding to a new poster and I realized his name needs to be outed.

    There was a guy named “DIRTY JACK” in west LA. What a freak he was. I heard he beat sober people while naked to repent for their sins. There was another woman who told me some stories as I was uncovering the sexual predatory stuff and then she told me that. We were both hit on when we were young in AA but taking your clothes off and allowing someone to beat you with whips. WTF. I hope eventually someone will tell me this story in my film.

    • Massive…

      A sponsor beat naked AA members? What in the friggin world?! Oh let us PRAY that one of the ones who suffered that TORTURE gets word of your project. I know if I EVER heard of AA doing anything like that to people before they got their hooks in me I would have avoided them like the plague!


      After I relapsed this past fall my sponsor said she was trying to call me…but couldn’t reach me. She said she planned for me to come over and take a nice hot bath and a nap on her couch…


      I suspected nothing. Seemed like she was just trying to be nice to me at the time. But….Looking back, maybe she was planning to beat my hard-headed ass, butt naked into stupor-submission… ha aha ah a aha a…

      Who the hell knows w/ these people?

      I’m glad she couldn’t reach me that day.


  65. This is the Story James Albert Walker (

    about a homeless person impersonating a Na AA guru who singles out mentally ill and vulnerable women in the Galveston Texas area. both he and several others as a matter of record have and do approach new females and offer them Cocaine or marijuana after taking them to meeting or in the outpatient treatment center located here in Galveston called the Daily Bread. or those who are living at the women s shelter or Salvation Army or ( GIGNA – Galveston Island Narcotics Anonymous Group) any women who is homeless and comes into contact with the fellowship. he first began giving her wrong information to mislead and confuse her against her fiance’s advice, to not get involved with this predator. during the course of several months, she would receive phone calls from either this person or his friends who were also in the same outpatient treatment center offering her cocaine or other drugs for sex. and telling her to leave home and meet them in a local hotel where he worked.

    at this point he was well aware that she suffers from mental illness ( Personality Disorder NOS and Schizo effective Disorder bipolar type with psychotic features) AS HE AND SEVERAL OTHERS CONTINUED TO SEXUALLY ABUSE HER BY OFFERING HER SEX FOR COCAINE, SHE BECAME MORE ERRATIC AND WAS NOT ABLE TO ATTAIN ANY TYPE OF SOBER TIE DUE TO THE FACT THAT HE AND HIS ASSOCIATES KEPT CONTINUALLY USING AND ABUSING HER..

    she was promptly removed from the City of Galveston and taken to a facility for her safety and to recover by her social worker after she was informed of this persons actions.
    however a few weeks later he took it upon himself to go and take her out of the facility where her social worker had placed hher, and he took her to the Salvation Army homeless shelter
    . she states that she told him she did not want to be around him anymore and left, he found her took her to a hotel room and gave her cocaine laced marijuana, where he soon brutally and savagely assaulted and beat her

    The Galveston District Attorney did not find out these facts as he convinced his victim to keep this hid and he was only charged with domestic violence ( see above links)

    this type of behavior has gone on in the 12 step community.far to long and older members turn a blind eye
    the mere fact that his victim is mentally ill and he has on more than one occasion given her drugs and alcohol along with his associates who were also both in the fellowship and the outpatient treatment center, should be made known to the Galveston District Attorney , and that is was never about domestic violence but someone sexually abusing and assaulting a mentally ill victim who now refuses to divulge the truth of the matter . he the predator admits he likes to use and abuse women who are mentally ill and emotionally and mentally unstable, on July 4 & 2012 at the annual narcotics Anonymous YMCA meeting in front of several other members , and here it is he has undermined and harmed someone and yet no one will take issue with this predatory behavior of a defenselessness mentally ill women he has bamboozled into keeping quiet and protecting him

  66. HI, you folks were given to me by some non steppers at dailystrength – They have a problem with returned AA preacher friend of Tuna who is part of UK cult apparently was called Gailly and regular folks there have outed her as prada princess but she’s digging in and they could use some exorcists on this high princess looking to brainwash newbies.

      • Guess I’m sick of these AA cultists around the internet and would like to see them all challenged and driven off into their pokey little churches. Check out the comments by an AA dude in this one
        Anyone know this crustycliff? What is the best way to deal with these AA parasites. My friends are at this site and they are all leaving because of these AA cultists. What can we do?

          • It is very comical. Crustycliff? What?

            That whole thing sounds like a bunch of rolling insanity.

            It never fails to give the same effort you did to get your next drink he says? Precisely what pray tell, is that statement supposed to mean. Like in other words maybe the statement will imply that getting some kind of drink took some enormous amount of effort. Once this false premise is established, he moves on. Reading the next 20 pages of rolling ramblings is going to be painful and require tons of effort.

            The rest is just too stupid to try to analyze here. But you can be sure it’s rip roaring pure insanity personified!

            As for what can be done, nothing. Because there are no laws prohibiting people from practicing their religious freedom.

            We can laugh at it though.

  67. I’d like to respond to something Frank had said about how when we leave AA, members whom we had considered friends want nothing more to do with us. Actually, in my case, when I left AA, I was still friends with 3 members in Portland, Oregon, even after I had moved back east.. One I considered my best friend for many years, Peggy, who unfortunately died a few years ago of cancer. She was very religious and into the program, but she never tried to push her beliefs on me. The other 2 are gay men; one of whom, Jeff, I considered to be like a brother. We met in San Francisco about 2 or 3 years ago, after having not seen each other for 19 years. I found him to be so mentally and verbally abusive that it was miserable to be around him. He also deliberately bumped into me, which didn’t hurt, but invading one’s physical boundaries like that, along with the verbal abuse, could lead to physical abuse if it continued. I think now he had always been that way, but my awareness of it had grown. However, I also think he has gotten a lot worse after several years of being sober in AA. Meanwhile, I had lost touch with the other man, Cal, with whom Jeff is still friends. I changed my name several years ago, and Jeff informed me that he and Cal made fun of my changing my name all the time. Cal also didn’t give a damn when I called him and told him that our mutual friend Peggy was dying of cancer. The last straw came when, shortly after our meeting, Jeff sent me a box of chocolates, which I believe had alcohol in them. Of course I threw them out. He had said he was going to do that. He also still picks up strange men in bars, who may be drunk or at least impaired, which is really sick. He also thinks he is in a relationship with a much younger man in prison who, as I far as I can see, is just using him for money. At the same time, Jeff claims he is 12-stepping the man and thus is really taking advantage of HIM, because the man has no sober time yet outside of prison, and Jeff clearly is pressing him for more than a friendship as soon as he gets out. So he is really 13-stepping him. Meanwhile, at times he has acted like he thinks he is better than me because he is still in the “spiritual” program of AA, while I’m not. Most recently, I was on what I had thought were friendly terms with a neighbor of mine in NA, who knows I am in SOS. Then, just recently, out of the blue, she has harassed me twice about my looks. I also saw her criticize another NA member’s dress. This woman, Chantay, has been sober in NA for at least 3 years and claims to work the steps.

  68. Hi everyone,
    Wish i had time to read all the posts.
    Useing library computer not got much time, closeing.

    I have stayed out of AA/NA,after leaving nearly a year ago.
    My drinking has not returned to the way it was pre AA.
    I have not went back to class A drugs. I have not
    been in any hospital or instatution since leaving and havent
    had to see any doctors for the mind.
    I have not been in jail or police cells.

    I was not able to work or encouraged to when i was in AA
    but since leaving i have started voluntary work that i enjoy.
    (I shall post a picture of me taken by the local paper-about
    my vol work as soon as i can).
    I have moved to a new home, and so glad
    to get away from the house i lived in for 18 years.
    AA encouraged me to stay put and not move.

    And i moved right round the corner from one of the meeting places.
    I am no longer afraid of any of the people i met there.
    A few have stopped me on the street.
    The AA man that i went to the police around some time ago, because he was threatening my life and screaming abuse at me on the street,
    when he stopped me recently and said that he has been doing great in AA now
    and has the programme now ect ect ect yakaty yak!!
    . and told me that i should and could go back to AA and giveing me other advise.

    i sent a letter to him via AA,
    telling him I was glad for him and dont wish no harm on him or AA.
    But in future just to walk by me and leave me alone.

    I now have nice friends and in the future may
    move with one of my friends to the canary islands. to work and live.
    i have been doing a lot of reading and recently read “Women who love too much.”
    And realised that the book was talking about me.

    I’m not an alcoholic-AA told me I was , and “do it or die,”
    AA were wrong when they branded me a selfish brat-
    i need to learn to be selfish not selfless.
    I am also still attending the church i found and I enjoy that.

    All in all im doing okay, happy with who i am what i have.

    wont be too long before i have my own computer.
    my old one packed in. it saw its last days just before i moved home.
    I shall be in touch again.
    keep smileing.

  69. sally- nice to see to you are doing so well! Its amazing what happens to some of us when we leave AA. I think it is so harmful in so many ways. So many lies are told where in they NEVER researched anything. Its sad when I know so many young people are being sent there now.

    Im happy for you Sally. Keep in touch.

  70. I live in Tifton, GA. Jim Crow Laws and Racism really continue to exist in Tifton and most nearby counties.
    Rednecks have a code of conduct they live by as taught by their generations of family. Many members are transplants from states way outside of Georgia.
    There was a young teenage guy that is an African American. His mother is black and a very good lady. I never met his father because his job requires traveling to other states.
    Jason was 19 years of age and is often mistaken as being Latino.
    One day before the Wednesday evening Tift Area Group Jason and a few other decent people came 15 min early. We call it the meeting before the meeting.
    I arrived 20 min. early and Alexis Funfrock was present along with a few new people. Alexis was saying that Obama could have been prevented if Blacks used condoms. She began to elaborate saying that intermarriage of African Americans and Caucasions gives births to mistakes!! She began to elaborate and twisted Darwinism and much more.
    She ended her opinion and looked directly at Jason (he was in tears at this point)
    and said he was preoof of being a mistake because he is Bipolar and falls into the depressive state much more often than the mania. He cupped his hands over his ears and and left the meeting screaming ” bitch; low life trailor trash bitch” I lost control and said what the hell is the matter with you you ignorant sack of shit! Get the hell out of this room NOW!!!
    But her trashy friends began to show up and she completely denied what had taken place. The newbies said nothing. I left, looking for Jason!

    Jason took his own life shortly afterwards. She Said “GOOD RIDANCE”
    Mainly to piss me off; but at the expence of another human with grave emotional and mental disorders. In fact she used Jason as a scapegoat to piss me off.
    And her devious little plan resulted in the death of a very mixed up teenager.

    Alexis Funfrock can be found on FaceBook. She Lives in Tifton, GA.
    She knows not to show her face in my home town because a lot of Jason’s cousins and second cousins want a word with her. I realise I am not using the 12 step approach. I feel like I could have told this horrible person to shut up.
    But I was afraid. DC

    • david- OMG I am shocked by this story. PLease tell the family if they feel that AA killed him…suicide is huge in AA. to contact me @ This is horrible and you should be so proud that you yelled at her and did not sit there quietly!

      U surely belong amongst us!…Again …sorry to hear such sadness.

    • Fear, bullying, manipulation, deceit and social exclusion are their main psychological weapons over time. The come on of “love” is a rouse. If you don’t conform, you get the forms of coercion above. And the coercion is indiscriminate. Meaning, it can come at any time for any reason from any person, even if you think you are doing ok and complying. One ends up seeking validation from mostly semi-literates with mental problems. In the aggregate, it is a recipe for disaster.

  71. I’m sorry that happened and happened around you too. Also, my apologies for making this tragic story about me. I remember now why I moved on from AA and even Anti-AA. It is surrounded by tragedy and misery. In the time I have been away from this entire sick genre – when ST went dark – I haven’t had to deal mentally with any of this kind of shit. The roomz kill people. Period. One way or another, the insanity of Bill Wilson and his devotees ensure that some people will die, who wouldn’t have died otherwise. I need another break from this shit. Let others live it. I no longer need to. My life is too short to be bombarded with this type of misery when I really don’t need to be. In several years, not a single tale like this has cropped up in SMART. Not one. But they are common as dirt in AA. Why doesn’t someone ask why and demand an answer? People are dying damn it. Pleasant, intelligent people are killing themselves only after contact with AA. They are alive, enter AA and end up dead. If you are pro-AA and reading this don’t try to give me the bullshit of ” well they were going to drink themselves to death anyway”, or ” some must die that others may live”. Horseshit. Horseshit !! AA and its members kill people and somebody needs to ask why, find the answer and fuckin fix it . Out.

    • Spj,

      I have no idea if I have been away from AA as long you; but it’s been a few years. The longer I am away, the more I understand what a destructive addiction it is and how it separates people from society who need desperately to learn to socialize. Its so dangerous. I always knew something was terribly wrong in that environment. I wont get into the reasons why I returned over a 30 yr period but were out now. Were not delusional zombie’s in the cult, waiting for the promises; while we dissect our character. We allow ourselves a pat on the back and feeling food most of the time. Anyhow, just felt like responding to you. Please take care of yourself. Best Wishes!

    • Yeah and it seems to be getting worse. It’s like the crazy groups are taking over, Orange says that and I think he’s right. I had and have to take a break too. It’s very dark and disturbing…

      One more atrocity in AA…sickening.

      • Many times getting involved has caused me stress. However on the other hand it has helped me tremendously through the process; but I have the power to choose when and if I do and its been a learning process. I think its important that sharing the truth from your heart should help you first and in return will most likely help someone else who is confused. Hope that doesnt sound selfish. Understandably we get angry at times. Boy, do I know I have.

        • Many times since leavingAA and blogging; I have thought I was making a bigger deal out of the experience than I should. I dont want to stuff my justified emotions any more. It’s very unhealthy and I know that now. No need to obsess; but talking about your feelings is normal. I AM A NORMIE (:

          • Sue I’ve been around the exposing aa movement since the beginning. A person gets burnt out. Right now I’m found what is best for my mental health and read about more atrocities just isn’t helpful. I’ve heard and personally experienced enough to last a lifetime.

          • suntime said;

            Sue I’ve been around the exposing aa movement since the beginning. A person gets burnt out. Right now I’m found what is best for my mental health and read about more atrocities just isn’t helpful. I’ve heard and personally experienced enough to last a lifetime.

            I completely understand, that’s why i felt it should help you first. I think many have left and had bad experiences but dont even want to talk about it; some need to. Life is busy; I dont know how I ever found time for meetings. For me, it was foolish. They interfered with my evening; after working all day. I would end up eating my dinner at 10pm. After a very short period of time, every time i went back; I would end up annoyed by what was said; talking to myself on the way home and my confusion would carry over to the next morning. I felt better because I wasnt abusing alcohol but I was angry. Plus my cats were very lonely. I owed them an amends when I left.

            Take Care!

      • As the scrutiny of AA continues, it directly threatens the existence of the organization. It can not withstand the bright light of reality. I think it is the normal course of religious social groups under pressure to cluster around the righteous crazies that claim to have the answer with conviction. The crazies and program extremists taking over also serves to make them more vulnerable. It is a program of delusion and nonsense and they hone it to the most ridiculous and fanatic for all to see. We have seen only a glimpse of what they are capable of with ST and the death threats, etc. Death is no stranger to AA members and it is not a stretch to think some members would harm others to the extreme to save their precious program.

        There has never been a better time for a national dialogue on this lunatic fringe program of faith healing. Once criticism and exposure of this bullshit reaches critical mass it will blow up in their faces – AND THEY KNOW IT !!! The likelihood that AA will survive in its current form against this continued onslaught of voices of reason is zero. ZERO. I am confident the more aware among them can see that too.

        If all those that had loved ones die in relation to AA raised their collective voices to ask what really happened and didn’t stop until they looked at all this new evidence and reached a logical conclusion AA would have serious problems. The awareness created by that one act would dramatically change or destroy AA. You see, in many cases the evidence is overwhelmingly obvious. The person had a drinking problem, but by and large they were ok people and could be characterized as mixed up and confused about life – but they were alive. They went into AA and now they are dead. I don’t care about any other argument. They were alive, went into AA and now they are dead – either by their own hand or by someone else in AA. Over time, this has happened thousands upon thousands of times. Valliant saw it and never really explored it. In this era of Big Data and Predictive Analytics an accurate correlation can easily be drawn. In the aggregate and over time, involvement with AA leads to more deaths than the general population. A kid in 6th grade algebra could see that. The only suicides and murders I’ve ever directly encountered were done by AA members – that I sat next to in the roomz !!! So my personal experience of murder and suicide has a 100 % correlation with AA. And I’ll bet I’m not the only one. AA has a very, very dark side and the reality is NO ONE is safe in AA or NA. NO ONE ! You could say the wrong thing or befriend the wrong person and end up dead. It not only can happen, it HAS happened and is in process right now somewhere. AA is a concentration of crazies and is the social equivalent of Russian Roulette. The numbers don’t lie. AA proselytizers do.

        • sbj AA has a very, very dark side and the reality is NO ONE is safe in AA or NA. NO ONE !

          this is very very true…so why does everyone in the general public think AA is so wonderful…never mind… I know the AA PR history, but to undo it will take a coordinated grassroots as well as mass media effort with all of us using literature that we create to attack this monster on BS. We need to get to Dr’s, Lawyers, Judges, PTA, HS, Colleges, Therapists, bartenders, ER doctors and nurses and educate them all. AND at the same time TELL the public at large.

          • with my Documentary I hope to reach the general public and then I have plans for the rest. It will take a team. I am trying to up my skills on internet media. :)))

          • 12 years. It started out with aadeprogramming. That’s on Ken ragges site more revealed. Apple is the one that created aadeprogramming, I think.

            First I read Ken ragges book, the real aa. (I’m on a Kindle pain to edit with) Anyway that book which is online free on his site was the first time I was like, that’s exactly how I feel. Then I found aadeprogramming. About 12yrs give or take.

  72. I’ve been posting a lot on this site lately and it is helping me to deal with my ambivalent feelings about AA. Being attacked by a guy in AA this winter was devastating but I am a stronger, more confident person today. It helped me to see the bad parts of AA and to know immediately when people in AA are saying things to me that are false. These posts here brought up an experience I had a couple years ago with a sponsor.
    I did a mini-5th step (or a tenth step or whatever) with her. She got upset with me and called me names. At the time, I thought whatever she said was right and that it would help me to listen and do what she said to do. I am very sensitive and I believed what she said and I thought I was a bad person. I wanted to kill myself. I was so freaked out about feeling suicidal that I called the suicide hotline. They were, unfortunately, useless. When I said that AA was making me suicidal, the person said that AA is also about forgiveness. I said thanks and hung up. Then I called an old friend and sobbed my heart out. He told me what a wonderful person I am and how much he likes being my friend. It helped a lot.
    I really need a support system that encourages spirituality to keep me sober. Like some sort of weekly reminder/discussion to talk about what works for people in that respect. I should try SMART, just to see what it’s like.

    • Brillando- oh boy …. that is really f**ked up….I mean what she , your sponsor did to you. They are so F**king crazy..

      Yes try SMART, try, try LifeRING, try Women for Sobriety, try SOS, secular Organizations for Sobriety, try Hams Harm reduction…honestly …although none are perfect all are better then AA and safer. they have daily online meetings .

      the person who said that to you on the Suicide hotline should be reported.

      Call me tomorrow I have time to talk. I will email you .

      The mind f**k that AA woman are doing is like a bad scene from the HBO show BIG LOVE from the woman in mormon camps run by Harry Dean Stanton. I am soooo sorry this happened to you. AA and they way oldtimers think they are “know it alls” can really do some damage.

    • Your story id another example of how AA contributes to suicides and suicidal ideation. I think it is criminal what they are doing to members. For the suicide hotline person saying that AA is about forgiveness shows how ingrained AA in our society is and possibly AA members infiltrating suicide hotlines!

      AA has admitted AA members roles in suicide

      Brillando- I am glad you are here and find it helpful. SMART recovery also has free online meetings and chatrooms.

  73. hope this posts. Have dongel problems now.
    With moving, being busy in my life,computer and now dongle problems.
    It has been difficult for me to keep in touch with leaveing AA.
    A friend has let me use there computer.
    I really miss reading the posts and because i have been useing
    friends computers i don’t read the posts as not wanting to take oevr there computer.
    I have forgot my specks and no spell check on this one.
    I’, doing okay. And have gone back to the realisation that i’m not an alcoholoic.
    I bumped into a few of them a wee whiile back one after another,and started to think i was one of them again.
    I have made freindsw with new people one of whom has had dealings with AA.
    She told me she couldnt stand it there because she had to sit and listen to some talk of there child porn -what they dide to kids.
    She is very honest person dead stright she said to me “I am an alcoholic been in rehab all that take it from me,take it from an alcoholic your not an alkie.”
    she has been around me for several months now i would say she knows me better thaqn AA did in all the years i spent there,
    I bumped into one couple weeks ago he approacehd me in town,he didnt say nothing bad to me but after about one minute of conversation he said”right thats enough then1 and walked off.
    This was typical of him the year of AA he would always be say8ing how important his time is to him and how he didnt have time4 for paraniod people.
    “he aimed thawt at me.
    I wasnt paraniod and any paranioa i had was cuaded by some pople in Aa him included ,
    By things they said to me..telling me hardely anyone was in recovery.
    telling me they were all 2 faced telling me watch out for him or her telling me other people were crazy.lots of things.
    Thing is i never asked for anyones time in AA.
    Not when going there or after leaving.
    Infact when i felt i said “I dont want nothing from no one in here and i dont want no ones time”
    This is typical of them they ask you to phone them then compalin when you do.
    They tell you there doors open open to you then complain about people takeing there time up.
    or effecting them.
    When i wasnt usweing the phone i was got at for not useing it when i9 did i was got at for useing it.
    I realey went to anyones door and only knew where 3 of them lived.
    I only whent a couple of times when asked to go.
    Any time they sent on me was at there asking.
    I have a lot to say and take up too much space.
    Soon i will be writeing a full account of my time in AA.
    The day i picked up weed again i would say -it had built up
    but being told i may have to work with child molestors-was the final blow.
    I refuse to help a child me selfish evil if you want but i refuse to help one. To knowingly have one in my life.
    No one in AA caused me to drink or use weed again-they dont have that kind of power.
    I refuse to support an organisation that blmes the victim.
    “I did not cause myself to be battered or raped or sexually abused..
    i have good friends now i have a life now.

  74. I currently reside in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, I am still a member of AA. I have been sober for 6 months and haven’t done the steps. I had a sponsor give me step 1 and that’s the last time I saw him. Yet I believe it is not the meetings that keep me sober. I have prayed to my own aspect of a higher power, however I have witnessed political views, sex and religion in those rooms and be covered up. One thing I have learned is if you acknowledge and/or attack what you oppose you learn a great deal from it if you succeed. I tend to not want to know wether or not AA is good or bad but I do know it too was made from mans will. We shouldn’t end AA but change it, to something better, fix the mistakes and make it better for the next generation. The end of AA would be failure to the next generations, and further more ruin countless more lives, why not just change it and make it better than what it is becoming?

    • Michael,

      Im curious how you personally would go about changing AA for the better. Your dealing with a mentality that is proud and brags about the fact that nothing has changed in 75yrs. However, I believe it has changed, its gotten worse. More cultist, more crime, more controlling over peoples lives. The saddest part is, the organization is much bigger, more powerful and very wealth. Oh, and I forgot to mention; given a pass by the media and the powers that be; including the medical industry. It’s a daunting task. Some are working very hard to expose AA and i respect them.

      • I thought about your question for Michael of how AA could be changed for the better.

        I used to be very involved in AA until this winter. I think I would enjoy a small women’s meeting where we would read a short passage from the literature of one the many recovery programs in existence each week and then talk about whether we agree or what works for us. I would include AA literature, but it would not be an AA meeting. Hmm…maybe I should think about doing that.

        It probably wouldn’t be great for newcomers because they may need more of a concrete program to guide them through their first year of sobriety. I attended my first meeting of SMART (online) this week and liked it. I think that would be good for newcomers (I’ve been sober for a few years, so I’m not in the crisis stage).

        • Brillando,

          Do you think AA would accept the changes you mentioned; or would your attempts to help just cause you grief. I cant imagine them agreeing to promoting/reading literature from any other source. I could be wrong and i think its very thoughtful of you to consider that.

          I tried my last time in AA; to attend basically womens meetings. I wont get into the different issues I saw there. I just knew that any AA meeting was spewed the same dogma and AA slogans. It came to the point where I did not give a damned if they were right and was wrong. I just wasnt happy and felt that i was prolonging my personal growth. I needed to gain emotional security and strength to trust my own decisions or I could never find peace of mind. Everyone’s background and what lead to abusing substances is different. I think AA ignores your individual circumstances. I found that to be very destructive for me.

    • One thing that has to be made unequivocally and abundantly crystal clear is that after all the meetings, dances, retreats and steps are cleared away, the “Program of AA” is faith healing snake oil and nothing more.

      “no human power could have relieved our alcoholism, but gawd could, and would, if he were sought.”

      “No human power” means you, psychology, medication or anything else from “man”. In their world, your “salvation” comes from gawd alone. Period, end of story. If you change that, you have no AA and that is what precisely needs to be changed. It is a medieval faith healing cult from the 1930’s and needs to be exposed as such so people can make a decision on whether modern society needs or even tolerates faith healing cults as a solution to one of the most vexing medical problems humanity has ever known, namely, self-destructive addictive behavior.

      If you truly believe any made up “higher power”, like a door knob or a tree, somehow ventures into your brain and rearranges your neurons and synapses to affect a positive behavior change just because you ask it to, then your problems are deeper than your addictive behavior. You are maniacally delusional as well.

      AA spends an inordinate amount of time doing “jazz hands” to try to make people not notice it is a faith healing cult religion, when in fact that is precisely what it is. AA is one big fantastic lie and no amount of diversion or anonymity will change that fact. People are catching on and fast. The proverbial covers have been pulled on AA and the decline is rapidly under way. As evidence of the mass exodus AAWS net assets are under $1 Million from the last tax return. Down from a high of around $9 Million and they have averaged around $4 Million over the last 13 years. Either they are playing a shell game with their money because law suits are on the horizon, or people are leaving in droves because they now know the truth.

      Being taken in by these faith healing wackos is nothing to be ashamed of, but if you are sober, get out before they warp your brain with their nonsense. Don’t waste your life in a cult no matter how much “fun” you seem to be having with all your new found buddies. You are a newcomer and very important to keep the cult alive. Us old timers figured it out and have left in large numbers so they need you to “believe” and spread the faith healing word to the masses. You are nothing but a pawn in a religious “movement” and if you don’t know that, maybe it is time you found out for yourself. Look at their tax returns. It is a business and you are a customer and a non-paid volunteer missionary. They NEED you to keep making money for the movement. Is this really what you thought you were in? Of course not. Their web of lies is time tested by other religious cults except the internet is exposing their bullshit. Change it? The core is rotten, so the whole apple must go and be replaced with something that isn’t faith healing nonsense.

    • Hi Michael, ….welcome!!!

      How did you find your way to our site of anti steppers?:)

      We tried to change AA (2009-2012) and they would not even let the minority opinion be heard in West LA. NY Headquarters voted no to taking action when we wrote long letters about the abuses we were finding.

      Personally I think AA will shrink to its proper size over the next 10 years.

      You are also very gullible …”The end of AA would be failure to the next generations, and further more ruin countless more lives,”

      hmmmm, I think AA is harmful, dangerous and needs a complete over haul. The book needs to be thrown away and start over.
      Stop reading all the stupid literature and just be a support group. No sponsors, no predators, no steps, no chapter 5, no preamble, no traditions read. no chips, no relaps discussion, no birthdays. Just read a sexual harassment zero tolerance policy!!! and listen to the last episode I did on AA literature.

    • Wow, I so totally agree with your comment. AA in my area to me is horrible. There are bunch of old timers who walk around thinking they sit at the right hand of the father. Ahhhh that felt good. I can’t stand AA. I went for 4 1/2 years and I have pictures of me and my family on a vacation (which I was advised not to go on because I might relapse) at 3 years and what I saw in the picture is me, but a very morbid, drawn, brainwashed, unhappy, AA stepford alien. Even my son said to me during the vacation, you know mom, you can crack a smile now and then. They use guilt and fear as their cult tools. That’s the tool kit! This is what AA turned me into. A stepford woman. Which is what the women in AA are. You know, they are the ones who make all the coffee, set up everything, be the chair people, be the accountants at the inter office group meetings, do all the work! so the old timers can sit back in their easy chair with their God and enjoy their sense of entitlement to be treated like special people because they have sober time and deserve as much respect as Jesus Christ. The last straw for me was I was a coffee maker for many meetings which was supposed only be for a certain amount of time before it was handed to the next person. Well, I did not hand over the coffee making committment, because you know, you need to be punished for awhile, or as long as the group conscious feels is long enough, and when your punishment is over, you need to just absolutely thank the group for the honor of being their coffee maker, while receiving insults from people that you had the napkins in the wrong spot on the table. I did not even have the money to buy the supplies, which they were supposed to buy, so I was using money out of my checking account, which was my husbands money and I went into overdraft by $35.00 to buy coffee cups, coffee and nobody could care less. Just suck it up, punishment is good for you. I feel like throwing up. It is a cult that needs to be closed down and my intense “resentment” is at AA.
      AA being a cult is not an idea or comment I made up. I have heard that for years and many people leave, but if you were ever to use the “c” work in meetings, you would be excommunicated. Well, go right ahead, excommunicate me. At least now I’m living in reality. It’s going to take time for the brainwashing to leave me. You know, that you can not survive without meetings?. And the other scary part is when I see people from AA now, I have anxiety attacks because donuts to dollars they are running back to their meetings and telling everyone just how horrible I’m doing, which they are imagining in order to justify their own sick twisted brainwashed AA attitude. I had people share in meetings, that so and so is practicing the AA steps outside of AA, but they are most uncertainly unhappy without AA. I could go on forever. This is actually helping me by getting this out. Every sponsor I have had I fired. My first sponsor was a total hippocrate who instructed me to do things and not do things that she was doing or not doing herself. I am seeking alternatives to meetings. AA made me want to drink. So either way, in AA, or not, people relapse. Their self righteousness makes me sick. In one big book meeting, we read a chapter where there was a comment about filing complaints with the general service office and the chair person said to the group…. We are going to skip this paragraph and everyone laughed in unison.

      • Hi blh, keep writing, get it all out. That will help a lot in the long run. Because you can’t talk about the nonsense and hypocrisy in or around meeting, it builds up internally and needs to be let out. There are a lot of places on the internet to do that now. There are many sites with forums where you can “vent your spleen” and I suggest you use as many as you want. This is not AA. You are free to criticise it all you want.

      • AA “rotation” is a JOKE!!! People get stuck with duties as long as they knuckle down to the pressure and keep them. I had to completely stop going to a meeting and vow never to go again because when I would show up it would only be a matter of a few weeks before whoever had been opening and closing it would disappear then I would be automatically assumed to be in charge and no one else would do anything. I left that meeting the last time when my Dad became ill (he later died) and had someone calling me when my Dad was in intensive care leaving a message on my cell phone asking if I could open the meeting since that person wanted to go to an AA dance that night. That person knew why I was no longer attending the meeting too!!!

      • Blh- Hi and welcome! Blog away girl!!! You are so right!!!!! I was shocked in 2009 to discover many alternatives to AA. We thought we were going to have to create something new..
        Smart Recovery, SOS,, Rational Recovery, WFS< LifeRING, Hams Harm Reduction are all better then AA i think. It was so refreshing to find these other people. I went to Smart and SOS a few times.

      • Thanks BLH,
        You are not alone, I remember being persuaded to help out and take over the tea making for ‘a couple of weeks’ whilst someone went on holiday. Six months later I was sick and tired of the sarcastic comments regarding the brand of coffee or biscuits that I bought out of my meager jobless pocket. (I’ve since got work after leaving the death cult of AA)
        Time and time again, guru’s would arrive in posh cars and pick up the biggest pile of biscuits you could imagine and were so rude and fussy. The newcomers were generally much better behaved. Something else I noticed was that the person doing the tea before me was a lady and she always had the guru’s near the tea bar chatting and trying to get her attention. Me being a man, I was lucky to get a hello (or unlucky lol)
        On one occasion, an old timer (guru) knocked my cup of coffee over by mistake whilst I was in the loo. When I returned he didn’t even have the honesty or balls to own up. I had to question a couple of people until I got the bottom of what happened to my cuppa! When the guru realized the game was up he turned the tables on me and said it was my fault for leaving it unattended!! This guru (creep) I’m talking about sponsors people and does 12 step calls to peoples homes. He is just one of the ego-maniac sociopaths that I have encountered in AA. Thank the almighty door knob that I realized I wouldn’t die if I stopped going to this cruel and deceptive death cult.

  75. Hi Sue,
    If I ever did get a group going like the one I was writing about above, it wouldn’t be AA. It would just be kind of a women’s support group where we could talk about different approaches to staying sober. The kind of group where there is just one, created by local people who like the idea.

  76. Brillando,

    Thanks for the response. When I left AA; I cant tell you how many times I thought about the same thing. The only thing that stopped me was I did not have the time. I think that would be great. I know I would not have excluded people who chose to moderate and there would be no labeling yourselves repetitiously as diseased; but there would have to be rules; including showing up at a gathering sober. No hierarchy and feeling superior about time sober. Let people make up their own minds, socialize and talk about living up to their full potential; while helping each other do that. Coach each other while staying on an equal level. Not everyone who was lost for years is an idiot. Many are very intelligent and all it takes its some love and caring to build their confidence.

    The last time in AA, I was in a position where I had been without a computer for 15 yrs. I wanted someone to spend a little time and help me learn. I ask with the intention to challenge them and i got the exact answers I was expecting. “First do the steps” or “Im not your friend, Im your sponsor”. I needed a mentor, not someone running life.

  77. I didn’t find it difficult leaving AA. I attended AA for six years. I never quite got the program, but was eventually persuaded to find a sponsor. The woman was a total control freak. She also had a long history of mental health issues, which she didn’t disclose in the meetings. She sat in the meetings “talking the talk”. My life got very weird once I found an AA sponsor. I found that I was being excluded and belittled in meetings, my experiences counted for nothing. I also had approaches from predators, both sexual and financial.

    It strikes me that AA is a place where people can go and behave in a dysfunctional way, and in a way it protects the wider society. But, for people who weren’t that dysfunctional in the first place, it could be the wrong environment. It is the perfect environment for control freaks and manipulators.

  78. Kirsty,

    I think the only opinions they want to hear or accept in AA; are the ones they give you. It reminds of a line from a movie: “If I want your opinion, I’ll give it to you”.

  79. It’s funny that I found this website because I wanted to post a poor review about AA. I recently left AA, about 2 months ago and am kind of scared. Not that I will drink, but total fear of the people I knew in the rooms. I’m not perfect, but my experience with sponsors has been nothing short of horrific. I have been used, taken advantage of by sponsors, lied to, stabbed in the back, made fun of, mentally abused by those sponsors who tell you to sit down and shut up and I am scared out of my wits that these wonderful 5th steps you do with perfect strangers in AA is going to get around the entire city you live in. I would not recommend AA to anyone I know. I used to recommend AA, but I had enough! I have almost 5 years of sobriety and looking back, I had really bad anxiety and anxiety attacks sitting in meetings, you know sitting around in a circle for everyone to look at you and judge you and laugh because they know your deepest secrets. Something needs to be done as I feel AA is a total free for all. I have had sponsors that have made all kinds of suggestions they had no business making. I truly believe that AA is a cult and I wish something could be done about it. I have really bad paranoia right now because I fired my last sponsor who now knows all of my stuff and they can easily get back at me and spread it around the rooms. You have to do what your sponsors say, call them when they say, right? When I see people that I knew in AA, I am filled with panic. I saw someone from AA the other day while I was walking my dog in the park and passed a man I knew in AA and if looks could kill, I’d be dead. I’m so scared because I went through 3 sponsors who I did a 5th step with and I shared everything and do not feel safe now. These AA sponsors are so bold as to want to keep a paper copy of your 5th step, you know for your protection.. Nooooo thank you. I don’t think so. I know someone who shared sensitive info and that person (I believe) ratted on her and she is now divorced and has lost her family.
    Please, Please someone do something about this. AA gets away with too much. They bank on the fact that they can do whatever they want because they “do not engage in any outside controversy”.

    • I forgot to ask. Can someone give me advice or helo ne to feel more at ease about these 5th steps. My 5th step was not the worst and I do not have any criminal activity, but I shared personal family information that I’m terrified of having shared. Someone please help me. I don’t want to be homeless.

      • Hi Anonymous.
        Usually when I find myself anxious the cause is that I’m focusing on something from my past or worrying about something in the future. There is nothing you can do about the past. Your fear of a negative future outcome may or may not come true. Your anxiety is the result of your body being in the present and your mind trying to solve some future problem that may or may not happen. Stay present. When the anxiety comes on look at what you’re thinking about. Something from the past you wish you didn’t do? Remember you can’t change the past. A future problem? You will handle that if/when it comes up. Becoming more conscious of your thoughts will help you stay more in the present. This takes time so be patient with yourself. Cut yourself some slack. There’s a book by Eckhart Tolle called “The Power of Now” that I think you may find helpful.
        Hope that helps a little.

        • sounds very Zen. it works for me. ALso just breathing slow. Talking to a close loved one about it or to my therapist.

      • Keep in mind that you can always use the truth against them to defend yourself if they try to harm you with personal information. You could always say “How can you believe someone from AA when the reason I left AA was that people there were too sick with various untreated mental illnesses or just conning and running scams, to be around?”

        The truth of what a lot of these people in AA who set out to do harm should disqualify anything they have to say.

      • must be anon,

        you may think this a bit weird, but when i was a little kid i got bullied a lot -the punches and kicks hurt but it was the slagging off that got to me most. I’m a sensative creature AW LOL

        My Mam used to tell me to recite this poem-and i forgot all about it for years till AA-

        I been saying it recently to myself.

        “Sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me”

      • If you could afford a solicitor, would it not be possible to take out some form of injunction against your former sponsor to legally prevent them from talking about you or your step 5?
        …These self appointed Guru’s need to be stopped!!

    • anonymous, can you tell us what city you are in, or the state?

      you can email me You can be in my film and tell the whole friggen world how F**ked up AA is if you want. I understand. I was young when I came into AA and it was such a manipulation.

        • anonymous- ok thanks. its hard to get unhooked but its possible. It depends how long we are in …and how deeply we believed the hogwash. You might like my radio show on blog talk radio called Safe Recovery.

    • Have to be anon,

      Try not to worry
      Its all goin to be okay in the end.
      Not everyone in AA talks about there sponsees personal info.
      And if it happens you will be able to handle it.

      My step work was talked about by 2 sponsors i had and i have reason to think a third one did the same.
      maby they all did in 13yr i had 7 sponsors.

      I was humilated by this at the time.

      I no longer care..i no longer care what they think of me.
      they are not important to me in my life.

      These people probably did more wrongs in there lifes than i ever did..
      It showed me how untrustworthy they are.
      When i recall them sat there saying i should trust them and its my own fault if i couldnt get it or had no friends there..

      LOL ..

      I wouldnt want there friendships now.

      they are just the same sober as drunk.

      Just as a drunk person will shout out in a bar or room full of people and tell everyone all your personal info or what you did wrong.take the piss laugh at you infront of others shouting about personal things in your life. So will they.

      Some may even use what you tell them against you if they can i heard of one person being blackmailed.

      They are ABSTINANT DRUNKS!

      They do things like this they pull people down to make themselfs feel better and Bigger-

      but theres nothing big about it.

      Im getting better when i bump into them-i know they are
      not any better people than i am ,i now know that i am equal not beneath.

      Also they are not above the law..

  80. Hi have to be anonymous,
    Welcome to the site. I’m so sorry to hear that you are in the position that you are in with your former sponsors. How scary. I have been concerned about confidentiality in the past also. It sounds like you are in a crisis situation. I wish I could think of good advice for that.

    It has been really hard for me to get out of AA because those people in AA became my community and I started to see them as important and trustworthy. I always wanted people to approve of what I was sharing in meetings. When I would see them around town, I was always wondering in the back of my mind what they thought of me. Because AA meetings are public confessionals, there are blurred boundaries between members. So these people we see around town sometimes know quite a bit about us. I can give you the encouragement that as you disengage, the opinion of these people will seem less important and they will begin to seem like members of a weird fringe group, rather than your own community.

  81. Massive, do you have any ideas for have to be anonymous on the possibility for confidential 5th step information being shared? on how to deal with it?

  82. GO online read the orange – papers and Why I left AA stories here and on Hang is and disengage and write all you need to . Get a life and live it doing what normal people do. AA meetings are not living. Develop some hobbies.

  83. Hello everyone,

    At last i have a proper connection to the internet.
    Hope nothing screws up on me this time.
    New computer and new dongle.
    Also have my glasses on so I can see.

    Im still out of AA.
    And okay.

    Since my last post i have had one small beer.
    a few week ago then none till Thursday.
    When i had one half of larger.

    This is not an alcoholic.

    For years they told me i was, and that i was in denial.
    And that i just wasnt giveing in or working there programme.

    I was often judged and condemed for not doing it not getting it.

    How could i when im not one of them.
    Not powerless over alcohol.

    At the time of my being fished into AA
    by one of it’s members.
    Though my alcohol consumption was
    worse than it is now,i couldn’t have been an alcoholic then,if im not one now.

    I have got over any anger feelings i have had around AA
    or towards some in it. So im not here because of rage or grudges.
    Though i have had those feelings at times
    .And have empathy and understanding for anyone who is raging at present.

    Let it rip!

    Anything i post about AA has nothing to do with resentments.

    I did get something from it, that was of help to me at the time i went.

    (It stopped me getting drunk for a while, and at the time i needed to stay off it.
    And it got me away from some people who were in my life at that time
    that i needed to get away from…pity i just went on to meet the same type of folk in AA that i was running from pre-AA)

    I was also glad for AA being there some of the times i returned to it.
    because my relapses would only ever consist of one drunk.
    One drunk and i would go back terrafied that i would keep getting drunk, thinking if i go back to AA i wont get drunk again. So i would go and feel happy because i would think im safer here than out.

    The happy feeling didnt last perhaps a few days then i would be unhappy lonely isolated depressed terrafied and confused again.

    The reality was of course that i wouldnt have kept getting drunk every day till i died.
    in an alcoholic pit.I just didnt know this becuase of the things i heard and that were drummed into me in AA.I was convinced i was off to drink and get drunk every day if i had one drink..And fear took me back into AA.

    Also i thought if i smoked a spliff or got drunk i was just a bit of shit..
    thought if i didnt drink or take weed then i was a better person for it.
    They told me this “We were just a piece of shit on someones shoe–we were no good ect ect..I also had that screamed at me..His words were..
    “your just a dirty deviouse no good addict ”

    So after years of hearing this if i even sipped a beer or took one drag from a spliff
    i thought i was shit…I also was told a sip or one drag was a relapse and would be be put back on day one…

    So i would think if i did AA and got IT and remained totally abstinant of everyting
    then i wouldnt be shit..i would feel better about myself..


    AA did the opposite it never made me feel good about myself it just repeatedy made me think badly of myself sober or not.
    it wiped out any confidence i ever had.

    im going away to visit my Dad tomorrow i have an early train to catch.

    im off to read the posts now havent been able to read them for ages.

    I understand why i went to AA when i did and dont blame myself for it-
    And though im glad i went when i did. I had no need to stay there and would have done better staying with the pycologist i was with pre aa and was encouraged to drop by AA.

  84. Theres lots of posts around the AA gossip.It was one of the first things that put me off AA. That and finger wagging. i recall my male sponsor, who wasnt my sponsor at the time, it was early days in ,i recall him doing this when i said i was thinking on moveing away from where i lived, he wagged his finger saying is this becuase you relapsed.I have forgot what else he said but recall they didnt want me to move. Then i had 2 sponsors that did ,they wanted me to go live with them.

    I heard some were gossiping about me both prior to my leaving and after leaving.I been surfing the net today since i missed my train and had no work today.

    hope i get a bus on Friday.There are some sites i went where AA were so i got out quick, don’t want to get down. I have found a song for us all.
    I love this.
    C:\Documents and Settings\cc wakefield\Desktop\Eliza Doolittle – Pack Up Lyrics and Video.mht

  85. I get tired, and upset
    And I’m trying to care a little less
    And I’m on google, I only get depressed
    I was taught to dodge those issues I was told

    Don’t worry, there’s no doubt
    There’s always something to cry about
    When you’re stuck in an angry crowd
    They don’t think what they say
    Before they open their mouths

    Pack up your troubles in your old kit bag
    And bury them beneath the sea
    I don’t care what the people may say
    What the people may say about me
    Pack up your troubles in your old kit bag
    Don’t worry about the cavalry
    I don’t care what the whisperers say
    Cause they whisper too loud for me

    Hot topic, maybe I should drop it,
    It’s a touching subject,
    And I like to tiptoe round the ship gone down,
    Got pennies, but no pounds
    So if your business is running out
    It’s not my business to talk about
    They don’t think what to say
    Before they open their mouths

    Pack up your troubles in your old kit bag
    And bury them beneath the sea
    I don’t care what the people may say
    What the people may say about me
    Pack up your troubles in your old kit bag
    Don’t worry about the cavalry
    I don’t care what the whisperers say
    Cause they whisper too loud for me

    Tweet, tweet, tweet, tweet…

    Pack up your troubles in your old kit bag
    And bury them beneath the sea
    I don’t care what the people may say
    What the people may say about me
    Pack up your troubles in your old kit bag
    Don’t worry about the cavalry
    I don’t care what the whisperers say
    Cause they whisper too loud for me


    “Because Of You” kelly clarkson.

    I will not make the same mistakes that you did
    I will not let myself
    Cause my heart so much misery
    I will not break the way you did,
    You fell so hard
    I’ve learned the hard way
    To never let it get that far

    Because of you
    I never stray too far from the sidewalk
    Because of you
    I learned to play on the safe side so I don’t get hurt
    Because of you
    I find it hard to trust not only me, but everyone around me
    Because of you
    I am afraid

    I lose my way
    And it’s not too long before you point it out
    I cannot cry
    Because I know that’s weakness in your eyes
    I’m forced to fake
    A smile, a laugh everyday of my life
    My heart can’t possibly break
    When it wasn’t even whole to start with

    Because of you
    I never stray too far from the sidewalk
    Because of you
    I learned to play on the safe side so I don’t get hurt
    Because of you
    I find it hard to trust not only me, but everyone around me
    Because of you
    I am afraid

    I watched you die
    I heard you cry every night in your sleep
    I was so young
    You should have known better than to lean on me
    You never thought of anyone else
    You just saw your pain
    And now I cry in the middle of the night
    For the same damn thing

    Because of you
    I never stray too far from the sidewalk
    Because of you
    I learned to play on the safe side so I don’t get hurt
    Because of you
    I try my hardest just to forget everything
    Because of you
    I don’t know how to let anyone else in
    Because of you
    I’m ashamed of my life because it’s empty
    Because of you
    I am afraid

    Because of you
    Because of you

  87. Massive,
    Good morning.Yes i was feeling a bit of emotional pain last night.
    AA was a lonley life for me. I have started to fill it up. But trusting other people and trying to form friendships isnt easy after AA.
    Pre AA i was never alone,over the years i became isolated. Apart from my family (and some were doing what they could to get me to ditch my family too)I have no contact with Pre AA friends.
    I’m trying to rekindle one old friendship with my old mate Carol,but how do you explain that a cult told you to get rid of your friends or you would die.
    i walked out her life 8 years ago and didnt return her letters or calls.
    I’m trying to make new friends.
    I’m trying to find new friends that are on my level and that i get on ok with.
    The songs seemed to fit how i feel.
    Pre AA i did creative writeing and had work published.I cant do that anymore.
    I’ts gone but i found these songs on the internet.

    • sally- in the beginning it was lonely too although I was pretty obsessed with blogging and I made friends with bloggers all over the country so I called them, But still I was adjusting. Then I had some health issues that really took me to a new level of WOW what is my life about 🙂

      SO IM back to making my film and Im building a team here in LA.
      I feel your pain though… smile ! We are not alone in our journeys.

  88. Hi Sally,

    It has been a scramble for me, since I left AA, to develop a social support network. For me, that is one of the keys to staying sober. I have started volunteering more and actively pursuing hobbies. I am doing SMART Recovery activities. I have a counselor. I am looking into finding a non-12 step addictions counselor to consult with a few times to help me brainstorm about the transition from AA to regular, real world sober life.
    You mentioned that trusting other people is hard after AA. One thing that I am learning is that trust has to be earned by someone. I expect it to take a while before the new, casual friends I am making outside of AA become real, long term friends. AA teaches that newcomers are to immediately trust everyone in the room until they prove themselves to be untrustworthy. This is opposite of what I find to be true in real life.
    It’s sad to say, but I love SMART online meetings because I will never meet any of those people and I don’t have to watch my back like I did at AA meetings. I can just focus on getting help to help me navigate my leaving AA and re-entering the real world while staying sober.

    • brillando- how powerful is that. Thank you for that post. Imagine saying all that to a judge who just court ordered a young 20 year old woman to 50 AA meetings in lovely and dangerous los Angeles…

      This is why I am making my film.

      Thank you again for calling me and sharing your exit from AA with me in a personal way. It helps me to keep going.

    • Brillando,
      Thanks for your reply. sounds like your doing okay.
      I had trust issues Pre AA, AA has made them worse.
      Yes told to trust them new in, and within a few weeks my trust in them was broken.
      I can hear an echo! “No ones perfect,you got to get over it,we all have defects ”
      true no ones perfect, but they broke my trust in ways that you wouldnt expect from so called recovered or recovering people who also claimed to be trustworthy “You can trust us”
      and spiritual And changed in there behaviours.
      Then of course you got to get over it quick if someone sexually harrases you or threatens your life you got to forgive and get over it on the spot and hold there hand the same night at a meeting.
      And share your next 4th step with a new sponsor who yet again breaks your trust.
      SMART sounds okay.
      i’m off to talk over a few things with a counsellor.
      Theres nothing left in my head around MY WRONGS.
      shared all those in AA.
      They kept saying i hadnt done 4th step said i was hideing dirty secrets.I’m not.
      Think what i need is to talk over some things that WERE DID TO ME others wrongs and to talk over stuff around AA
      with someone who isnt in AA.

  89. I have been attending AA for nearly 3 years and I have been 13th stepped by a woman who has had 11 years of sobriety. I don’t feel comfortable in my home group any more and im not the only woman she has propositioned. When she sent these texts blatantly wanting to sleep with me I sent a message back saying I wasnt interested. When she saw me at a meeting she explained she was feeling horny and if I had slept with her she would have ignored me. I felt that this behaviour was totally unacceptable and if it happens again, bollocks to the yellow card it will be reported!! The attendance of this meeting has rapidly declined since she became secretary. This is due to her behaviour in meetings, laughing inappropriately when others are sharing, constant burping and passing wind loudly and pulling faces when doing readings. Theres also the angry outbursts that occur frequently. This is the Thursday night meeting in Harwich in the U.K.

    • Man sorry about that. for me I would stop going bc as far as I know there is no place to report anything that happens in AA. That’s why there are so many sites exposing this kind of behavior bc AA won’t address it.

      You need to make sure you’re safe though.

      And welcome, here you can honestly share how u feel about AA, 🙂

    • angel tedder- How disgusting.

      I suggest…. Get her full name and if she hits on you sexually again tell her you will sue her for sexual harassment. Then please document this and please send letters , keep copies and send to AA in NY and AA in the UK. You could make a flyer and hand it out warning other newcomers about her. Sorry you had to put up with this crap.

      are you male or female? I just re read your post. SHe already 13 stepped you. Right. Get a pic of her, put it in a flyer and pass it out.

    • Angel tedder,
      These are the people your told to listen to.Those with more sober time.
      These are the people who were there already when you first went.
      The great teachers.(or have they stopped saying that one now in AA)
      I heard it often.
      These are the people who have been working on themselfs for much longer than you have.
      These are the people who told you on your first days in, shut up and listen do what WE SAY YOU KNOW NOTHING YOUR MIND IS INSANE.Do it or die.
      yakaty yakaty yack!
      Good luck with your reporting of her,
      none of my written or verbal complaints were ever given any notice.
      There were a few maby count them on fingers of one hand, who gave me a little support around these things.
      But on the whole i didnt feel much support even from them.
      some of those blamed me to at times.
      You may be told she’s a sex addict.
      Whatever she is, she certainly sounds very strange to me, the burping and farting may just be due to wind, anger outbursts well i have had a few myself in the rooms of AA i’m human.I got angry in an AA room once when a man was screaming abuse at me in my ear -no one said a thing about it he often screamed abuse at a few people in meetings.
      You know sometimes i shout back.
      but the sexual advances-yes was it once or more than once.
      A few men and women hit on me throughout my 12 years there
      First weeks in one said things on the phone to me that triggered a major panic attack in me.

      Lots of things like that.

      I was told it was my fault when things like this happened thats the times i tryed to talk to anyone else in AA about it.and the man who said these things on the phone to me i was told to give him respect because he was sober.

      I had to forgive people on the spot not be angry not blame i was told “You did it,”
      when something happened to me via anyone else in AA, that ever made me upset.
      Like when my life was threatned.

      But fuck it SHIT HAPPENS.
      I’m getting on with my life and putting it behind me now.

      i hope your compliants are heard in AA.

      • I am a man who is attracted to women but the way some of those Guru’s behaved towards women (mostly many years younger) made my skin crawl.
        Newbie Women need to be made aware that AA is a hunting ground for middle aged Guru perverts! ……AVOID, AVOID

  90. I am a bisexual female. When this happened I was only about six months sober. I have found out that several other aas find her disruptive and she has a reputation for sleeping around. What pisses me off is that she claims to be straight!!! If I had been ina more vulnerable position and given in, iwould have almost certainly relapsed. The other woman she came onto refuses to come to that meeting. I feel safe at the Clacton meetings however, as ive known most of them for years.

  91. Hi Angel Tedder,

    I’m really sorry about you having to go through that. That sort of thing just feels awful. That woman’s behavior is so unacceptable. She is a predator. My guess is that it has very little to do with her sex drive and much more to do with power and control (or she is just severely mentally ill – the lack of concern over her bodily functions and angry outbursts suggest a need for medication). I left a meeting I liked because of a predator and it was really hard emotionally to ‘let him win.’ Eventually, it led to me leaving AA altogether and that has turned out to be a really great thing.

  92. Under the FIle a Complaint thread please tell us your complaint directing it to Alex Padilla and I will cut and paste these stories and send them to his office. Or send them to his office and copy the story here so we can track them.

    Each step we take I will be telling you and we might go to Sacramento and to Los Angeles CIty Hall and Los Angeles Superior Court where we heard today by a very reliable source that 100-200 men have been court ordered to AA. VIOLENT OFFENDERS TO BOOT! Every friggen day…Oh my dear GOD help us.

    Also, please tell us what state you are in.
    I live in Yorkshire England.

    In reply to this request,

    In may 2001 an AA member spoke to me and gave me advise to go to AA where i would recieve help around my drinking and find good supportive friends.
    I had been seeking help in other way’s prior to meeting this AA member.
    i went to AA in may 2001. hopeing i had found an answer to the problems i was haveing.
    I had several accidents and other problems related to my drinking.
    on entering AA i was in a severe state of shock. I have PTSD. Due to violent, and sexual abuse. And trauma’s from childhood onwards. with which i had been recieving help from Support and Survival, and Pycological therapies.
    I also talked with my pycologist about my alcohol use.

    AA, they told me from my first meetings that i was an alcoholic in denial. That AA was the only thing that worked nothing else did . To get rid of other things i had or was trying to help myself with.When i didnt comply with there requests of me they grouped togther against me, put pressure on untill i complied.

    There was a lot of things in there shares i related to, balckout’s. accidents.
    I ticked all the box’es on the questionare they gave me.I believed i was an alcoholic after this.
    But they kept telling me i hadnt accpeted it but had to or i would die.
    I was very afraid not to do what they said but often questioned what they said.
    The reasons i went there and kept going back there would take so long to write, but the main thing i think was fear.
    And the reasons dont matter, right now.

    I attended AA and NA for 12 years.I went through the steps as best i could. i did what they said to do.
    However i would only ever get periods off it then drink again.
    There programme didnt work for me when i worked it.

    In my periods of abstinance in AA there were many times when i felt i was being abused by other members.
    Sexual harrasment, intamadation,verbal abuse,and i also went through a lot of emotional and mental pain with things that happened there.Physical too , i have spinal disabilities , and as my x sponsor pointed out Old timers make meetings on there mobility scooters so you can.
    I can’t argue with that.
    But the wear and tear on my bones and muscles the torn ligaments from the frequent long walks day and night did take there toll on me. i would have been glad to have had a scooter, i think but not a car..And I was glad for those that did have them

    I wasnt blaming, but told i was. told i was jealouse of there cars LOL i have never wanted a car. My Fathers tryed to give me 2 one when i was young,. and one a few years back
    Didnt want them
    I know i never will want a car.
    told i was self pitying.
    You know trying to expian to people why you cant be at every meeting wasnt even allowed.
    Or just telling someone how you feel that day after they ask ARE YOU OKAY
    so you say my legs hurt cause your in pain when they ask if your okay.So that makes you full of self pity.
    I do not pity myself.
    There were no complaints allowed about anything.

    Sexual harrasment and intimadation happened at times ,
    from some members,right from my early days in AA and throughout.

    When i tryed to make any complaint around these matter’s i was told not to speak of it, once when i did i was shouted and swore at, i would be told i was takeing it too seriousely, i was resentfull, i would be told i did it so dont moan about it.I would be told it was my fault.

    My complaints werent heard and nothing would be done.My writen complaints were never re-plyed to.

    I was also taught by other members, those with more sober time, those who had done the steps, sponsors, those i was told from first day there, that i was to listen to and take direction from.
    They taught me that i was to take things on the chin, and not complain.To forgive on the spot.
    I suspect if i had stayed in AA too long,
    This way of thinking they were learning me,could have done more harm than good.
    People have been raped by other members and they may have learnt the same things i was being taught.
    Take it on the chin, dont moan, you did it, look for your part, dont blame, And have to hold there rapists hand the same night in a meeting. And not share about it.

    Pre AA and at times dureing my time there i did some studying around abuse.
    I did an NVQ in health and social care and read some books around abuse.
    I had been a client of Support and survival, where i was being helped to talk of, and report abuse.

    Doing these things both in my past, and dureing AA, made me realise at times i was being abused by other member’s, old timers , relapseres,sponsors too at times yet i wasnt allowed to make any complaint around it.There was no one to talk to no one to report it to.within the fellowship of AA. Any word of it spoken to another member, would only bring the same kind of response. Your self piting,
    Dont moan.
    Your fuck all special.

    keep your mouth shut.

    And this seemed so diffrent from what other places books and posters on wall’s “ZERO TOLERENCE AGAINST ABUSE” were telling me.

    I went to the police a few times ,Like when a man from there was screaming on the street that he was going to take my head of.
    a man who broke his wifes jaw blacked her eyes and put her front tooth through her lip.

    Of course i called the police.

    They picked me up on the street and gave me police protection that night so i could enter an AA meeting.

    I didnt talk of it in the meeting of course, by that time i had been taught not to speak of things such as this in a meeting.And of course discussing it with my sponsor well “YOU DID IT SO DONT FUCKING MOAN ABOUT IT”

    And that was end of that.

    There are young teenagers being told they are alcoholic’s do it or die, at AA meetings. who have no protection against sexual or violent people.
    Are they alcoholics. Is AA the only place of help for them.

    I left AA over a year ago. I have been modarating my alcohol use for a year sucessfully.And my life is better than it was in AA in some ways.
    According to AA’s litreture that means im not an alcoholic, if im not one now i wasn’t one in may 2001 either.

  93. this is for everyone who is going to AA, and okay there and want’s to be there.
    I live in wakefield, those from this area who go to AA and also read posts here.
    Please leave me alone.

    I have told you i am okay.You have also been told i dont want AA treatment any more.
    And told that i just want to put AA behind me. None of you were close friends.
    And those i knew the most, well it’s not like we hung out together is it.
    Not like we spent much quality time together, a few minutes after a meeting.

    Not like we really knew one another.

    I am happy being who i am today.I do not want to become anyone else,especially Bill Wilson. I have got enough friends today I dont need any more.
    I dont need any help around alcohol or drugs.I dont need AA or friends or your HP /GOD

    Some of the old hippies have conformed, but not us all.

    Peace and love
    And good bye.

    • hi sally- wow …what a great post. Im sure many people who leave AA and live in a small town feel this way.
      Happy to see you have gotten stronger and tell them to leave you alone!!!

      I just listened to that Ritchie Havens youtube. I love him!!!!! I saw him live in a small setting in 1983 . I was so close to him he was about 15 feet from me as he sang. I was awestruck!!!Thanks for sharing that link 🙂

      • massive,
        yes they are still trying to fish me back in.Some are leaveing me alone now they walk away quick when i tell them im ok,or im not an alcoholic,or i mostly stick to 1 or 2.
        But some are still at it.

        I was sat thinking about the one that fished me in to start with.He had actually relapsed in AA when i met him on the banks of a lock in Scotland. He had only just met me and he was drinking SLOWLY one beer he didnt want more.

        Then later he tells me how he needs to get back to a meeting.
        And how i should go there for help.
        A year or so later i met him again for the second time. again, he told me he had left AA they were a set of assholes. And he was smokeing weed.

        that was the last time i saw him.

        I did the same thing to others. At times that he did to me. Told them AA helps all that, then would drink or use again.
        and also rant at them at times about the bad shit in AA.

        I’m trying not to talk about AA to anyone other than professionals i see like doctor’s. Or on this web site.
        If anyone asks me about it i just want to say i got advised to go by a member, went there and got told i was an alcoholic thought i had to do it tryed it but left as the bad outweighed the good.
        And after i left found out i’m not an alcoholic, and that there are other ways to help yourself with drink problems.

        Im really fed up with people (Not the people on this site) but
        those who know me going on about there drink problems.
        (Not everyone i know thankfully but 1 or 2.)
        They just talk about it to me over and over again. But arent doing anything about it.
        The people who go to AA and those who went and left.
        At least we did and do something about drink drug problems if we have them or had them at one time.
        Im trying not to get into it with them just let them talk and say nothing or change the subject.

        they all know of the help available counsellors doctors internet sites and of course AA.
        me im happy with my drink drug use if i wasnt i would do something about it.

        Im okay with people who dont drink often and are cheery enough, when off it and who when they drink ,they drink and are merry.LOL

        Your so lucky seeing Rickey Havens live.I love his music, i love all kinds of music.I went to see Bob Dylan when he came to Sheffield years back. that was great.

        Keep up the good fight, and cant wait to see the video when it’s done.

        • I saw Bob Dylan in NY C in 1974. He was so drunk he forgot the words to BLOWING IN THE WIND LOL !!!! My sister and I were stoned but we were laughing out asses off that he and Melanie had the bottle on stage and they were drunk. It was a pretty silly concert. It inspired me.


    today i recalled once in an NA meeting, a clean/sober member
    of a few year’s told me shop lifter’s were pieces of shit.
    I had stopped shop lifting decades pre NA. And i knew it was wrong.
    So i stopped a bad behaviour without god or AA/NA. I had been keeping patient when others had been takeing cheap shot’s at me from there chairs.
    And had not said a bad word to any of them.

    When he said that to me, i retaliated, by saying is a pusher any better
    or something to that effect. HE was an X pusher as were some others.
    After that they all turned against me for a while.

    And i was blasted by other’s. When i went to NA they made me welcome.
    They told me i was the same as them an addict do it or die.They told me if i left i would go on to use other drugs i had not done before.There was only one other canabis addict there.
    Later they told me i shouldnt worry about weed that was just sweeties.

    I have never used needles, took heroin crack or coke. Pre NA i didnt judge those that did.I did speed and LSD in my lifetime. My first hits from those.
    I was spiked. I gave them up 20 years pre AA/NA and with no god.

    I posted a song for that guy in NA. And the other guy there,
    the little man, the midgit the court sent there.
    the one who stood up to hit me in the meeting when i said i think this is a cult.
    He soon backed off when i stood up to him though, midgit’s i would
    have just stood on him.

    i found out an old pre AA mate who tried AA before i did but left.
    and she tried NA. she’s dieing, with a needle in her arm.
    she didnt do heroin pre AA.

  95. Just before i left AA i heard a lot of shares about non alcoholics killing alcoholics.
    The ones in AA and the ones on web sites such as these.
    Up untill recently i thought i was an alcoholic. Someitmes i still question it.
    And it was AA that drummed it into my head that i was and must be in AA do AA in order to live.

    Before i heard about the alocholics being killed by non alcoholics, it was
    shared around AA that it was the addicts that were killing the alcoholics.

    And i was also told by AA that i was an addict. GO TO NA.
    i went i got clean for periods there, but kept picking up again.
    The addicts told me i was one of them then they changed there mind and told me i was a f***n alkie go back to AA. So i did. then the alcoholics told me go back to NA.
    the addicts then told me i shouldnt worry about weed it was sweeties and i shouldnt be there i wasnt even an addict.And i was killing addicts.
    then later AA told me i wasnt an alcoholic and i was killing alcoholics.

    All in all i went to aa in 2001 because i really did have big problems when i drank
    and an AA member advised me to go to AA. and from my first day there and for years they told me i was an alkie and do it or die there was no other way.

    So it was members of AA that told me to go there and stay there. Then NA did the same.
    then they all changed there minds and seemed to want me to leave.
    telling me at diffrent times that i the addict or i the non alkie was killing alcoholics.

    And they are probably still saying that i am, since i now come to this web site.

    My intentions have never been to kill them.
    and though i can feel angry towards them at times
    i dont want to see anyone die because of me.

    im thnking about the many times i relapsed in AA in early days there.
    one time i left a meeting and got so hammered on booze i got ran over by a car.
    im thinking of the many times i had to call the samaritins while i was in AA.
    even there own founder suffered depression while he was in AA.
    im thinking of the times i heard how someone sober in AA had killed themselfs.

    AA asks people to go there and stay there and i dont think they really care
    if a person needs there help or not. There was a young lesbian woman there when i was there that pre AA only drank 2 glasses of wine after work then went to bed.
    thats all.And she never did any harm to no one pre AA her harms list isnt long.
    she is still there she says she is an alcoholic she loves AA and is right into it. If they could convince her she needed it then i can easliy see why they convinced me i did.

    i had a lot more problems with drink than that when i went to AA.

    i dont know is it me that was killing them or was it them that was kiling me.
    because i dont think i could have lived in AA. The depressions i went into while there at times.

    Why is AA blameing me for people’s deaths. If your an alocoholic in AA and its saveing you
    good stay there. dont drink because of anything i do or say.
    thats all AA did blamed me for everything. i recall one time when i had gone back after a relapse someone saying to me dont blame us for you drinking again.
    i hadnt even opend my mouth. and he said that. i replyd i have never blamed anyone here for my drinking. i drank before i came here thats why i came here.
    i realy didnt blame anyone there for my drinking.i had always thought my relapses were due to be unable to get IT whatever IT was.

    live and do AA if you want to i dont care.

    but i will fight you on the beaches
    if any of you try to stop me from doing my own thing and posting here.
    this web site is helping me and others from the damage AA did to us.
    and its helping some who are there and feel as we did when we were there.
    but as yet cant leave because of what AA has put in there minds.

    theres been enough deaths associated with AA,
    alcoholic or non alcohoilc. They died after going to AA or while there
    or after leaving.
    i wonder would they have died if they had never been invited advised, counselled sent or forced to go there.

    Stop blameing me AA and start to look at AA

    joan bias is an aquired taste wouldnt open it unless you really like her. i love her.

  96. heres another complaint,

    Step work “how did you treat other alcoholics”
    we treated them badly.
    shares “we kicked people when they were down but now after AA we will help to pick them up give a helping hand”

    PREAA- i did vol work in 80’s helping old among them alcoholics.
    one her name Mary, i kept eye out for her made sure no one ripped her off shed had problems with that.i helped her out of bed dressed washed eat.

    PREAA walking up town alcoholic man been hit by car people around him i went over they were just standing looking at him. i bent down took his hand, he says a car got me i said who has a phone, I didnt have a phone didnt own one, one said i do i said well phone an ambulance waited with him.

    that man came into AA a few years later he was filthy, and had pins in his arm his hand all bandaged up right mess. no one spoke to him. i went over gave him a hug they said do you know him i said yes they looked at me like i was a piece of shit for knowing him.

    homeless alcoholic york i was a bit homeless myself in one room in a
    underground hidden house for battered wifes.
    he was on streets tapping i sat with him and listend to him talking most of the night gave him the last i had in my pocket. went to look for him again when i got money to give him socks his feet were bare no socks he had walked 70 miles blisters.

    there were loads of times i help’d alocholics and addicts pre aa. i wasnt among the brigade that kicked them when they were down.But some in AA kicked me when i was down and came back into or even just into a meeting of the so called recovered ones.
    made me wonder then am i really one of these people.


    the link may not be right for this web site, but i liked what the girl in the video had to say. and if anyone’s disturbed by it i apologise its not men’t to.
    it’s men’t for AA.

    and i’m not much of a one for quoting the bible, event though i have read it, Pre AA and dureing AA and after AA.
    just as i have read many religouse and spiritual book’s. Pre AA dureing it and since it. but i do like the part in John that says ” the truth shall set you free.”
    and it’s strange that i should see it on one of the other videos attached to this one.
    what is the truth.

    AA is a dangerouse cult that protects and supports sexual abusers and blames the victim.

    An AA/NA man came to my door a few years back at a time when i was trying to leave AA/NA.
    i was out of AA/NA. he came univited. He said my problem was that i hadn’t spoke about abuse that had happend to me.And that I need an AA/NA counsellor.
    to this day i don’t know how he knew since i hadn’t mentioned any of the abuse issues i had pre aa to anyone in aa other than once in a meeting. All i said in that meeting was “I had been raped when i had relapsed from AA ” and another time after being around AA for some time “I was raped at age 16 it was my fault it wouldn’t have happend if i had been sober.” _because that’s what they told me.!
    A meeting he wasn’t at. So how did he know. I had been abused.
    I hadn’t spoke of it.
    Yes i had spoke about some of the abuses that had happend to me PRE AA. to a friend, to my sister, to some of my partners,and to a pycologist.
    and to star rape crisis centre.
    I hadn’t talked of everything, but i might have done if i hadn’t stopped seeing my pycologist and went to AA/NA instead. When i first went to AA, I did talk of two rape’s not in detail all i said was what i have wrote above and said it once., i didn’t repeat it over and over..or follow an AA around saying but i have been abused but i have been abused!
    i have been raped twice. and i have been sexually molested a few times in childhood.
    AA told me early on it was my fault i had been drunk.
    I wasn’t drunk , the rape i spoke of in AA meeting i was sober when that happend.
    and the first time i was raped i was 16 and i had drank 2 drinks a few hours previouse to being raped and had also been asleep.

    So as soon as i went to AA i was told it was my fault i had been drunk.
    as time went on i only spoke of sexual abuse three times.To AA.
    i didn’t even speak of it i wrote it in step work not in details. i didn’t put the details in.
    The responses were , “You should be thinking about how he feels.”
    “We have distorted memories” “teenagers dress up to look older, the man was drunk” “What’s this this isn’t a step 4” and the people who read it there responses were angry.
    i heard a lot in meetings about there are no victims. we were not innocent victims we victimised others too.
    How could i victimise others if there are no victims?
    yes there are victims. and i have victimised others i know that. i stole in my past that’s victimising. but to me there is a difference stealing through hunger and stealing food ,to and stealing someone’s sole.
    The last sponsor i had i didn’t write about what they did,only what i did.
    she said i could which surprised me but i didn’t want to because of all the things that had happend in AA around when i spoke of things people did to me. Always being got at if i did. i didn’t want to go through those kind of responses again. I cant recall what i said, but i do think i only spoke of one thing that happen’d to me. She didn’t blame or judge me she didn’t say anything. And i liked her for that.

    i went back into AA after step work with her. just to here the same things.
    A woman shareing how she had been raped and how it was her fault since she had been flirting with the man.
    its not the rape victims fault . a normal man wont rape someone because they are flirting with them. a rapeist can’t define the cue’s. and of course alcohol can also be among the causes as well. when a man’s drunk especially a rapeist. but that don’t make it the woman’s fault.She didn’t play a part in the rape.
    And a child don’t either.

  98. i recall being in an NA meeting and a man shareing that his sponsor had shagged a dog when he was a teenager.And that he was evil.
    it is a wrong thing to do. But not not so sure about evil.

    I don’t know why he did that , it could have been revenge, his sponsor may have shared his sponsees stuff around the rooms. they do that i had 2 sponsors that did the same. And to this day i have never spoke to anyone about the stuff they told me in confidentiality about themself’s , even though i knew they had broke mine.And i still won’t do that.

    children and teenagers that do things like this to animals are either going crazy with hormones or have been abused as children , but i doubt if anyone in there could understand that.
    since they are self seeking , and cant understand or have empathy with others.

    also don’t get it that they can have empathy and understanding for a child molestor,
    and blame the victim.
    Yet they are so worried about a dog. i’m not saying it is right to do that, but i wouldn’t say it is because they are evil.
    people kill dogs and eat them in china.we eat animals too.

  99. AA think i hate child molestors and have no understanding of them.And that i’m just full of resentments and bitterness because i didnt talk of abuse issues. they are wrong, there was a time in my life when i felt hatred to them.One of them that’s all just one. That was years ago. and i did not kill the person. i have not committed murder.I did talk about these things. Some pre AA and some at a time when i had left AA for 2 years. I went for conselling and also group therpies.while there i read several book’s. the book’s were given to me by a counsellor.the book’s were about this sunject. one was writen accounts from convicted child molestor’s.It was very hard to read. but i read all those book’s. in doing that i gained understanding around this.
    i no longer have thought’s or feelings of hate around them.
    however i do not want them in my life or wife beaters or rapeists or financial abusers . or lot’s of other abusers.
    why would I.AA watned me to do this may have to sponsor a child molestor in the future.
    AA put me in a position infact told me to be friendly with wife beaters and sexual predator’s.
    they isolated me. then told me to be friends with people they knew were doing this.
    then when those people did this to me threatened my life intimadated me or sexually abused mew they blamed me for it not the perpetrator , not themself’s. And then they shunned me.
    and then told me it was me that caused abuses to myself ,sexual abuse in my past and all abuse’s that had happend to me.
    then told me i was maby going to have to sponsor a child molestor.
    If i had of done and then the child molestor had done something to me or my family .
    they would have told me to look for my part , don’t moan you did it, don’t hate don’t blame him .Don’t balme us. don’t speak about it.Keep your mouth shut !
    and all the rest of it, then shunned me.

  100. this is nuts…..sponsoring a child molestor. AA needs to get regulated and the FBI needs to go in there and arrest those fuckers who are raping woman and children. Keeper lost her son this way. A child in Belllingham was “Molested in an AA MEETING!!!!”

    For anyone in AA especially a woman to tell you that you needed to forgive a child molester is wrong and is sick. I would be happy if down the road I have the funds to fly to Scotland ,(or wherever you are ) go to that meeting and give them a piece of my mind.

    Bill Wilson’s intention was never to use these steps on childhood issues. They were intended to help a drunk who was hopeless stop drinking. Period! End of story …right. Right . sorry this was told to you sally. Sounds like some really sick people in your meeting place

  101. massive, thank you. and i think your right about the steps not men’t to be about these things. And AA needing to be investigated.

    that’s the end of my memorie’s of AA. around issue’s i had there, with it all.
    In reporting these thing’s i may have broke anonimity, and i never intended to do that. i may have spoke of things that were said in meeting’s to and i never men’t to do that.

    however i feel i have had no choice but to.And the people i have spoke of well they all broke mine, and my confidentiality,.
    2 of my x sponsor’s broke it both to insiders in AA, and some not in AA. And they were not takeing drugs or drinking when they did. And they were in AA. I left.
    and i didn’t do it from malice. i did it because i think i may have self distructed if i hadn’t and because it could and may of help’d others, it has certainly helped me.

    There are things they and others in AA told me about there own personal past PRE AA life’s that i will keep to myself, even though they didn’t offer me the same courtesy. And those things are not to do with the issues that are talked of here and did not involve me.Or AA it was there pre AA stuff.

    That’s it for me. no more to say about my AA day’s. i am going to get myself some pay’d work , then later move from this city as soon as i can. To a place of nature.
    I may get back into complimentry therapies i have a master’s degree and practised that for several year’s.. Or i may get back into art. Or just serve coffee in a cafe whatever i can do.
    i’m keeping my account here open, but will be off line for a while.

    i still don’t have a spell check hope you can understand what i have wrote.
    sometimes i lost my specks and well guess those posts were very bad.
    Hope this has been of use to you in your work and for your film or such like.

    i also ranted a bit swore and took up lot’s of blog space., i apologise for this.

    take care massive and best of luck with the film.

  102. whats AA soul surgery. some are left like robots puppets.
    some are left in pain angry unhappy, suisidal.
    some say they are reovered and okay and have wonderfull life’s.
    i dont know what its all supposed to lead to. what happens in the end.
    im not going back to try again, i dont want to find out.
    seemed to me i had to have no feelings. except love
    think that was allowed, and at times i did feel love.
    i dont know what they wanted of me it became all too confusing and i couldnt
    be what everyone else wanted me to be, act,
    how everyone esle wanted me to act, behave, talk.
    i have had it with AA and everyone who is there, im okay with
    those here, who are leaving the bastard pack. but not them
    in there for life and want it all
    and are okay there.
    stay there then, and leave me be.Im on
    this side of it now and staying on this side,im going to help to
    fight the good fight, this is the good side.
    and in off to watch AA
    destroy itself.
    No one but AA are destrying AA. those in it , and those who run it,
    and its own teachings.

  103. Please contact me. I have a complaint and don’t know where to go with it. Don’t want to post on line please call.


    • Hi Therese from CA. Send an email to

      It probably isn’t wise putting your phone number up like that and maybe Massive can take it down for you.

      Best of luck and I’m glad you are doing something. This is a big country and if everyone that suffered at the hands of an AA predator all stood up at once and filed complaints, the cops would be overwhelmed. It’s time to stop the AA madness.

    • therese,
      hello hope your okay love.try the link. also go to the police and a lawyer and alert your neighbourghs.
      i did all of those things. the police documented my complaints and told me if any of them threaten me to call them, also one police man i spoke to on phone told me i could go to the law around slander.he was the most helpfull person and he helped me that night i phoned him.
      and the police did arrest one man when i was in AA that i called them about. I wish now i had pressed charges then and there but i was in AA then and AA made me a doormat.
      PREAA the police didnt take my complaints of domestic violence towards me that seriously , but i found they are a bit better around such things now. not that AA is domestic but then again they did say they were my family AA was my home and i had to live in it.
      the lawyer said she didnt think she could do much as AA isnt a hospital but she was going to look into it and get back to me. She seemed interested in the fact i had been sexually assualted and threatned, but being told to come off meds she said they arent a hospital, and its not an illness.I didnt go to the link i couldnt get it to work. but maby i will post there . i did post a lot on this web site and a few of the posters got back to me Masasive and a couple of others. And that helped me to be heard and have my complaints validated.I also wrote a letter of complaint to USA head quarters but no reply.
      i wouldnt give out your phone number on carefull.
      and take good care.
      the lawyer told me the UK laws are diffrent from USA im in UK.
      okay coffee then off to work. hope your okay.

  104. Hi Theresa I’m at airport flying doom to be on national tv. Hold on to ur hats .,, I will post what show, time etc on Wednesday
    Night est
    It will be on Thursday
    I will call u when I land snd as doom as I can I will delete ur phone # for u!
    Hang in there and write to my email as spa suggested if u like

  105. It is very simple. Women who are unstable and fearful should go to women meetings only. Any group of people can behave in the way the women who set up this website allege they do. It isn’t just in AA or NA. All groups (chess clubs, garden clubs, book clubs) all potentially act in ways that offend others. I believe the people who set this site up may need to look at their motives instead of being so vitriolic.

    • Really, chess clubs, garden clubs, and book clubs, are just like AA?
      – Do the courts mandate attendance to garden club?
      – Do hospitals and mental institutions send people to chess club?
      – How many people go to book club because they think they have a deadly disease?
      – How many people who go to these clubs abused or were dependent on alcohol or drugs?

      • you are right anon.. the person is an indoctrinated, delusional moron – there are such unfortunates.

        One more aspect. They always end with some admonishment and behavioral recommendation.

        ” I believe the people who set this site up may need to look at their motives instead of being so vitriolic.”

        It is like they are the righteous final answer and have some moral superiority that allows them to judge and make a recommendation. Almost universal when they drive by and blow AA vomit on the blog. Fascinating.

    • “It is very simple. Women who are unstable and fearful should go to women meetings only. ”

      Wow, is this what has become of AA or has it always been that way and know one told me?? I cant tell you how many times I was informed that I was in safe place if i was in a meeting. Are women only safe in womens meetings now? Is it disclosed to them from the start or do they have to figure it out on their own? Who is expert enough in AA to determine which women are unstable and fearful; without even knowing the individual and their background? Please dont give the sponsor solution. Many who are new to AA arent interested or ready for a sponsor. Does AA teach that its mandatory to have a sponsor? Besides, many sponsors can not be depended on to protect a sponsee from sexual harassment.

      Many who attend their first meeting want to listen and would like to introduce them selves by shaking hands. Instead they are told we dont shake hands here we hug. Unfortunately, many times those hugs are insincere; have the wrong intentions and are not welcome. This aggressiveness can be very uncomfortable for new comers and even those who have been around awhile.. I can speak from experience. “I NEVER LIKED IT AND IT WAS VERY INTIMIDATING” I didnt get as many hugs in my later years when I went back to AA. I guess I was a little too old and not as attractive but I observed the unwanted attention the pretty girls got.

      Do you inform women that they are justified to tell a member: “Im uncomfortable with your behavior” or are they led to believe that there cold and out of place if they dont accept the hugging and the love fest atmosphere that is such a part of AA?

      These issues I mentioned are somewhat minor in comparison to others and AA true believers are in denial. The individuals who reap the monetary benefits from members donations, refuse to do anything about it. Dont you think that some small changes in the meeting agenda could avoid some terrible tragedy’s? Maybe its time for an inventory?

    • Looks like Bill Wilson rose from the dead and is visiting us here trolling my site. GTF out dude.

      Our motives are to warn people of the dangers in AA. We are not blind to over 8000 posts here
      We are not blind to 92,000 listens on Blog talk radio
      We are not blind to Keeper’s son TJ being murdered and raped by a pedophile, or Karla Brada’s murder or Kristine and Saundra Cass’s murder.
      They are just some. Now the rapes, child molestations, womens boobs and asses being grabbed,

      But we want you to know that people are leaving in droves from AA because of gaslighting, sponsor abuse, wacko cult thinking, controlly old timers who are out of their minds… and sitting too close to sex offenders in metal folding chairs while some one drones on reading the lies professed in the preamble and Chapter 5.

      Thanks ANON , Im in Arizona working on my film but I will rest soon… my sons are so happy I left AA and so am I!

      • Love it massive, lol. I heard you on your blog talk show the other day…you were saying that on the BBB they say Alcoholics anonymous is treatment for alcoholics. Then you said something so brilliant, I loved it. If AA is considered treatment for alcoholics then they damn well better have safety measures in place for the people receiving the so called treatment, love it… you said it so well.

        So appreciate all your doing. 🙂

    • bill w,
      i was in NA before i knew womens only meetings existed.And 4 years after i entered AA. The only one near me is many miles from where i live. in a big city i didnt know. i went and wasnt acepted or welcomed there.And im glad i didnt get your AA/NA because i dont have to become a woman, like the women in AA now.I can become the kind of woman i want to be instead of the kind AA wanted me to be. I will never meet the people on this web site face to face.(I wish i could ) They cant do to me what some in AA/NA did. and even if any of them verbally abuse me or slag me off things that can be done in writing, it is muted down, not as bad as since it is writen not screamed in my face.And also its provable becuase its recorded, how i wish i had been under a city street police camera, the night i was sexually abused by an AA lod timer, how i wish i had a recorder on my phone when i recieved an obsene phone call from a much respected AA old timer.
      i dont care why the people who set this up, set it up. I really dont care why. Im just glad they set it up !
      I care that one day, one of my children grandchildren or a good friend may have to go there.If they do i would want them to be safe.
      I care that people are being abused in there.
      and i care that i was too, and that i need to do this to help myself
      around that.
      what i dont care is this

    • You are obviously a troll. If you were that happy with your life and what AA (the ultimate cult) has given you then you wouldn’t feel the need to come to this site. My guess is that you are in DENIAL. You’ve obviously invested a lot of time into AA and didn’t find this site by accident. Come on, just admit it to yourself…AA is a lie! and you know it.
      Take the first step (step 1): I am all powerful over alcohol, it is up to me how much I drink or whether I drink at all.