KARLA BRADA’s Murder Pre Trial today…

karla pic

I sat in a courtroom all day today with Karla’s parents, Hector and Jaro, and her family and close friends listening to the beginning of her trial. I can not blog details but it was very hard to listen to the details of the coroner as he testified. I stopped breathing at one point I was so horrified, then I caught my breath and forced myself to take some deep breaths. I felt a huge wave of sadness fill me, then I looked to my right and each of the family members and friends had tears streaming down their faces. I took more deep breaths and continued listening.

When it was over I drove home on the 405 south (there was no traffic at 5pm ) and I was exhausted. I can’t imagine how they feel.

I think there are many aspects of what happened to her that will push our work, quicker and faster into the light and into the media and in effect make change.

  1. To make sure there is justice for Karla
  2. To educate the public and AA members that violent and sex  offenders are being sent there unknowingly…
  3. Make it illegal for the judges to use AA as a dumping ground
  4. Force AA/NA to be regulated
  5. Force AA to create safety polices
  6. Educate the public that there are 6 other free support options other then AA/NA
  7. Wake up the insurance industry (Blue Cross etc.) that they are being duped and ripped off along with average citizens by places that are flop houses and not real healing places
  8. Educate the public that AA is completely unregulated and a dangerous cultish like support group.
  9. That there are no trained facilitators like presented on network TV shows at all!

The good news is…that the Judge felt that there was enough evidence to move forward with the trial. Thank GOD!

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107 thoughts on “KARLA BRADA’s Murder Pre Trial today…

  1. Thanks Massive … murder trials of this nature are tough and you put yourself through a lot by being there. Your post also contains valuable clarity which indicates a more clear sense of purpose. One of my initial thoughts were, “how many of these types of murders have their really been?” and ” What a damn shame that almost all of them could have been avoided if people in power would just listen and do something.” I still believe the consequences to AA and the medical and judicial system would be huge if all the relatives of murder and suicide victims in AA woke up all at once and started to ask what really goes on behind the curtain of secrecy created by the self-proclaimed anonymity clause of AA.

    There would be mass condemnation of the entire faith-healing system and billion of dollars of lawsuits.

  2. spj- thank you….Yea … that day is coming. One of the ways it will come it thru the misuse of Blue Cross/Athem etc paying $1,000. a day to a flop house in Santa CLarita, dressed up to be a treatment center, where in the clients are drove to an AA meeting where they are unknowingly mixing with violent offenders sentenced to AA/NA.

    There are some investigative reporters at work finally on many aspects of all we talk about here.

    AS Gunthar says ” we are peeling back the curtain ” the land of OZ and Sony Studios may be in Culver CIty but the Bullsh*t in AA is on the radar of 7 anti AA blogs and the interest of a few Civil RIghts Attorneys!

    • Not to mention about a dozen recent books and hundreds of YouTube Videos and as many articles, and medical and research professionals on the attack. If AA members think it is not under mortal attack, they are idiots. AND, the anti-AA chorus is just warming up. All of this is just the prelude to the big event where the public gets outraged at the death and predation of thousands of people at the hands of AA members, and the fact that it is institutional faith-healing nonsense. It’s gonna be fun ! But, not for AA.

      • I just want to add here, that I think it is impossible for churches to NOT know illegal and even deadly things were going on around AA. Seriously. How can they have maybe hundreds of thousands of meetings over 70+ years and have no one ever discover a correlation between AA and rape, murder, suicide and violence in their parish or community ? ! ? They would have to be idiots not to see it. Now, if they did see it, they talked about it. Maybe even sent letters and emails and phone calls about it to people above them in the hierarchy. If so, there is a record of it somewhere. Meeting notes somewhere. Evidence of collusion and suppression of knowledge somewhere… Just sayin.

        • Great observation SPJ!

          I was thinking we needed to educate them, but no; you are right. They simply MUST know something…

          And I have been studying the church angle; if they do know, they are definately LEGALLY responsible and can be sued to HIGH HEAVEN since that is where they all wish to go?


          I stay on the look out for updates and news. In so doing sometimes I come across funny stuff that does not really help our cause other than to give us a LAUGH…

          If you’d like a laugh from a bit of humor at AA’s and a church members expense…CLICK HERE:


          Back to business–

  3. Thanks for fighting the good fight Massive & Co! AA is sick and people need to be informed. I just spoke honestly with a woman friend from AA that I knew when I went. She told me that she knows what a pick up program it is and is sticking with women now. She told me about an AA that I know who got $50,000 from two different AA’s, one he was having sex with. I told her that the men go for female approval and sex; she said she already knew and also knows why many women go. I told her that I didn’t have a disease and asked her not to have a disease either. It was a good meeting, she may live. No f-ing joke.

    • anon She told me about an AA that I know who got $50,000 from two different AA’s, one he was having sex with

      DID they sue the thief regarding the money?

      • The first one I heard about loaned the money, I did not hear about a suit. The second woman got the guy a contract design job that he never completed, it wasn’t worth it to the company to sue. Apparently the perp knows that 50K is the number that a lawer won’t go after.

  4. anon- thanks back to you! GLad you warned her. They need to know that many of the men are not like you or many of the guys I know from Hawaii. I very busy para legal who works in Superior Court in Downtown LA told me that some 100-200 a day are violent offenders being court ordered to AA and NA. Holy F**king GOD help up.
    I think the state of cali could be sued too. They all know what they are doing.

    Look at this under the radar AA legal/lawyers/judges society is up to….


    Let go with a camera and see whose who….then go to the courts, then pull all the cases showing who is court ordered.

    We are working on a simple pamphlet to hand out to DUI people outside the courthouses.

    • “some 100-200 a day are violent offenders being court ordered to AA and NA.” WOW! Those are some big numbers. Just think what the numbers must be nationwide. I imagine that accurate statistics on the numbers of people “sentenced” to AA/NA nationwide would be shocking. It really is crazy.

    • Those lawyers can have no expectation of anonymity after putting out public flyers for their AA events. Once lawyers can be found liable for promoting AA as an alternative to incarceration, and advising clients to go into an unsupervised and dangerous environment, the whole thing will die even faster.

      • Lawyers are required to be “competent” and “diligent” which means they have to do research on their area of expertise and keep up to date on issues surrounding that area. If they are referring people to AA without any diligence on the true faith-healing and dangerous nature, they are not being either competent or diligent.

    • Massive, I hadn’t been in the company of an AA gal in many months so I could feel the sexual tension in the meeting. Somehow because I had been in AA with her I cared more than with a woman in a casual encounter with no aa pretense; this is why I spoke so frankly and gave advice. It was weird, sort of like we were already involved. When we met I immediately noticed she was wearing stretch pants and a tight t-shirt. When I saw what she wanted I thought the reason for meeting was superficial and weak. AA is akin to instant foreplay, I am truly grateful that I was married when in the rehums and did not have to succumb to any of the ten thousand times I fell in love.

      • Did I miss something here? I’m pretty sure that stretch pants and tight t-shirts are in fashion right now. I may or may not agree with the fashion gods, but this seems to be the in thing this season. Wow. That entry makes me (a) be glad I’m gone and (b) want to help the women in the program stay safe and be a part of working to clean up that sick program.

        • Brill,
          If I wear stretch pants and pull them up into my junk you are going to look, not fondly, however you will look just the same. My tight t-shirt will accentuate my harry man boobs which you will also at look at. Consider that while the reaction is different, the context is much the same. Why go to a mental health venue where you are NOT interested in attracting suitors wearing provocative clothing? That was the spirit of the post. I shared honestly about what a man in the AA environment thinks for your edification. Consider the value and rarity of someone sharing this self defamatory story for your benefit. Heck, I never took advantage of the low hanging fruit but I sure did enjoy looking and the tension, the approval didn’t hurt either.
          The only way to clean up the program sexually is to separate the women and the men. It is either a mental health program or a pick up spot, it can’t be both. The environment is sexually and emotionally charged for all concerned.
          Anyway, practically no one likes the truth, me included.
          And by the way; AA does suck.
          Go to Wednesday night Pacific Group and you will see one thousand members dressed to attract, AA is all about the hook up. Get your head out of the sand; they deny that AA is a religion and a cult, I have never heard an argument against it being a social group.

          • ” I shared honestly about what a man in the AA environment thinks for your edification. ”

            This sounds much like blame the victim mantra. We also already know that there are creepy crawlers in AA and NA. That is no revelation here. In fact that is why we are here!

          • I once went to The Marina Center late night meeting during the week to make the announcement for the Make AA Safer workshop. The 2 young 20 somethings were dressed like hookers. They acted as if they were better then me. I looked normal.

            PLain and simple. I agree with anon, the look right now is booty shorts so short that a professional woman I know who is 35 had them on the other day for a business meeting. I wore them when I was 17 had great legs, was thin, has not an ounce of fat on me etc. Sorry to say I’m now 30 lbs heavier then I’s rather be and Im not as pretty as I was at 25. But I am happier and saner for sure.

            But woman and men in AA today are really into the meet and great shit at meetings. They have no idea that it kills. F**king around where you eat is a bad idea.

            ” dont shit where you eat” was what was said in the “ole days” . The Pacific Group is harboring a rapist. I was told first hand. But I am sure some will come forward soon…to tell the tale on Clancy I.

          • Anon,
            i wasn’t offended by your post. and hope that none of my posts have offended anyone.

            Most of the time i went to AA/NA i was dressed down rather than dressed up.
            I was fully cloathed and covered. mostly a pair of jeans, baggy t-shirt or jumper. And parka in winter.
            didnt wear makeup often either.
            however at times i was more tidy and did wear makeup.

            i didnt go there with any intention of attracting anyone to me for sex.there was no one there i got to know that i wanted to have sex with.

            I dont go to AA anymore and in dress wear i would say i am more tidy than i was in AA.
            But im still covered up.

            And sometimes i wear makeup sometimes i dont .just because it feels good to be tidy and dress up sometimes .also because i now since leaving AA go to places where its right to do that.
            Like my work i work in a cloathes shop. And if i go out to a party or event.
            when i do wear makeup i dont put it on heavy.
            I have never been much of a person that wore revealing cloathes.

            i only ever wore a mini skirt once, one day. That was years ago.

            I went to AA/NA originally for drink problems,
            not to look for sex or a partner.

            I’m out of AA and im still not looking for sex.
            It would be nice to meet a partner one day.
            the right partner that is no more wrong one’s.
            however if i don’t so what. i have had my fair share of partners.

            Most of my life and pre aa i was a hippie type,
            i’m boho!
            anything comfy and flowing.

            today im slouching around in jeans and slipper’s.

            i just recalled that when i first went to AA i used to wear a led zeplin t-shirt it was about 3 times too big for me. And had paint stains on it .I was always painting pre aa.
            it was the stairways to heaven t-shirt. You know from led zep song stairway to heaven.

            I Dont know what i did with that shirt. i don’t wear t-shirts with bands names on them anymore.

        • brill- yea me too. Im glad IM gone but I think we maybe need to do something.

          Hand out Karla Brada Flyers. They are ready.

          SHall we?

          • Massive,
            I’d love to hand out flyers up here! Or paste them up around the fellow(cough)ship and sent to the pastors/preachers of the churches. I was going to say “I’m sorry I ever posted something anti-AA that I wrote on a church’s facebook page…” BUT I’M NOT SORRY!!!

            Backstory — I use to go to the “Center for Spiritual Living” (what they call it anyway) and I really liked it because there was NO talk of “God” — It was all about Peace & Love, the Golden Rule, and being the best we can be with loving compassion (inside & outward). I stopped going about a year ago because, little by little, AAers gradually began infiltrating the place.

            So about 2 weeks ago, I saw in the newspaper that the “Spiritual Center” was hosting the movie “Bill W” on a Friday night. Attraction not promotion (again), right? The announcement stated: “Come join us for the true story of how two alcoholics started the program of Alcoholics Anonymous.”

            True story? Really?

            On Monday nights SAA (Sex Addicts Anonymous) meets there. I know for a fact there are 2 pedifiles that attend. So I posted a comment, saying something to the effect that “AA was a cult, and that if anyone REALLY wanted the TRUE story about AA, go to the Orange Papers.” I asked, “Courts are MANDATING criminals, rapists & pedifiles to 12step programs all over this town. Do YOU know who you’re sitting next to? ”

            THAT started a shit storm. I was attacked immediately. (No surprizes there!) Slogans were threw my way (take what you want/need) yadda yadda. People I knew from the roomz blasted me. Even my AAer Uncle from NC got in on it! He’s unfriended now. 🙂 Sticks and stones can break my bones… Funny how AAers are so defensive if you rock their sinking boat!

            THEN my post was deleted.

            I AM NOT LETTING UP. They can smear my name and gossip all over Mendocino County, but I’m going to continue to speak my truth.

            Flyers of Karla will be greatly appreciated. I shall email you personally to get the flyer file (if it’s available), Massive. And from now on when an AA rape or murder is posted in the paper or online, I’m making up flyers to paste up on the doors of churches and places where they have their sick meetings!

            I am so glad I left those freaks.
            Hateful hateful people…

            Thanks for listening to my rant. *hugs*

          • Rainbow- I couldn’t find a reply button under your post so…I will send you some flyers and soon we will have a DUI 3 fold pamphlet to give out to those who are so unfortunate as to get a DUI DWI tix. I love your passion and you hutzpah!!!

      • You know what anti, I apologize for that. A blog is a weak place to tell someone fuck you.
        Also, I’ll keep my stories to myself. I respect you and think you make alot of good points about AA.

        • That would be considerate if you did keep those kind of thoughts to yourself. I get the impression ( i could be wrong) that you are saying things that you should know would be inappropriate considering it is a blog in part to stop sex abuse in 12 step meetings. This is not the first time.

      • anon-f I wear stretch pants and pull them up into my junk you are going to look, not fondly, however you will look just the same. My tight t-shirt will accentuate my harry man boobs which you will also at look at. Consider that while the reaction is different, the context is much the same.

        Well I get your point if you wore this type of clothing you would stick out. Maybe ANti D has never been to a meeting in Hollywood which I know she has not been. She is not nor has she been ever an AA member. I think only those who go really understand how sick it is in there.

        We all agree its sick. in 1976 a woman named Ruby D came to Hawaii from Vegas. She had really big boobs and came to the meetings with no bra on and a sheer top. The even normal guys went crazy and the lady’s who burnt the toast pulled her aside and told her to go put a bra on. She had been a “dancer” in Vegas and even bragged she had slept with Frank Sinatra. I at 19 years old actually lived with her as a roomate for 1 month and couldn’t take it. Another woman came to her defense. It all made no sense. She needed to put a friggen bra on, 1970’s and all.

        I don’ t think AA is fixable. Its gone off the cliff….in my opinion. Its too infested with sexual predators on both sides of the fence.

        • I think the point was missed. I am not saying that women never dress trashy in a AA meeting. Hell, prostitutes are mandated to AA and NA.

          That does not mean we need to hear anon’s ‘sexual tension’ stories. It is not the first inappropriate sexually related comment by anon. In fact one was directed at you awhile back.

          • I haven’t detected anything inappropriate in the posts and believe we should be able to discuss various viewpoints here for maximum value to readers. I mean, we’re kind of here for the readers too, right? I do, however, detect a sensitivity that seems a little extreme in this specific case. Something to look at perhaps?

              • AntiD,

                I did not think you were too sensitive and I agree. Some explicit details are better off kept to yourself. There are more appropriate ways to describe the mindset. Personally I get very offended by certain comments and I think that you were justified to address it.

                Im sure no harm was meant. However, for example I consider a comment like this unnecessary and has the potential of being very offensive to someone; depending on their past experience in AA.

                “One day I heard one guy call a girl a smoothie, I asked why, he said no pubic hair; this was an exaggeration in this case, yet still an indication of the mindset.”

            • I have not detected any inappropriate posts either. There were times we disagreed on some stuff. We almost had an internet fight I mildly recall, but I felt that time it was not warranting a problem.

              You may refresh my memory if you want or we can just move on. I have bigger fish to fry then fight with anon or you. Your work anti D and his are both important. We cant all agree all the time.

        • Just like I do not have to be an AA member to know that sending minors to AA along with sex predators is wrong, I do not have to be an AA member to observe multiple inappropriate comments by a blogger.

          It is not rocket science.

  5. Hi Massive and all,

    That is so intense what you sat through today with Karla’s family. You are a stronger woman than me. I hope to live my whole life without those kind of specific details about the evil side of humanity and what it can lead to.

    All the court ordering into AA/NA is so awful. It is awful to me because I was a drinker who just loved happy hour and parties too much and suddenly I was surrounded by people who got arrested with guns and hard drugs involved and we’re all holding hands confiding in each other. I really believe that I will only do SMART online because I don’t want to meet anymore of those types in person ever again.

    I’m thinking of you – it was probably rather traumatizing to hear what you did today.


    • Bril – I was never around as many convicted criminals as in AA, and yes, several (both men and women) had been convicted of flourishing guns and making death threats while drunk. It isn’t just people that were nabbed for DUI or basically harmless “town drunks”. Fortunately, as a 6’3″ 250 lbs Army veteran I was never personally threatened by anyone in AA and never felt threatened. However, male-dominated AA is certainly a more threatening environment for women.

      • I am still a little ashamed of myself for not realizing what a young AA member was sharing one time. She was generally distraught and really confused and complaining about the state of her life and mentioned how she would ” like to have sex with people my own age”. We all kind of chuckled because it seemed funny, but I now know the seriousness of her statement and am ashamed I didn’t pick up on what she was saying and did something to assist her.. oh, and that was at a “club”. Right in the middle of a “shopping village”. How appropriate.

        • SPJ – This forum has given me a greater appreciation for the dynamics concerning women and AA and the potential dangers they face. I do clearly remember the apprehension that I sometimes noticed in women that were attending meetings. Of course, AA meetings are often at night and in the not so nice parts of town, so their apprehension was well-founded. I also think the clubs may have their own unique form of crazy.

        • spj,
          I know what you mean; I would see aa guys with super young girls and wonder how they could do something so unfair. I always thought “aren’t you looking for someone to stay with?” “doesn’t she deserve someone her own age?” Somehow I was only attracted to women my own age; when I was a teen I was never without serious girlfriend so I never had an urge to repeat something I had already done (awkward inexperienced scenarios). One day I heard one guy call a girl a smoothie, I asked why, he said no pubic hair; this was an exaggeration in this case, yet still an indication of the mindset. A part of me likes these young women enough to do what is best for them; in the near run I am sure it would be best for me too.

          • The things in AA are very bad right now with regards to sexual predators. It would be great if even those of us who have left could go to one mid sized mixed meeting and make a warning announcement regarding sexual predatory behavior. I might have to do this. Someone who ripped me off in 1998 has re appeared east of me about an hour away. He is preying on new vulnerable new comers. He is both sexual and financial predator. It would be powerful if all of us did it around the country at the same time.

            I’ll keep you posted.

          • Anon wrote: “One day I heard one guy call a girl a smoothie, I asked why, he said no pubic hair; this was an exaggeration in this case, yet still an indication of the mindset.”

            That’s what a smoothie is? Some AAsshole guy asked me if I was one long ago. I didn’t even want to ask him what that meant, so I walked away. This was a guy I had never dated too, although he wanted to date/f*ck me. Sicko freaks…

      • I was threatened by a sober man in AA too. And a clean/sober man in NA. And i agree its a threatening environment for most women.
        I was used to being threatned and haveing violence directed at me for years pre aa. And was at times around criminals.
        I had hoped that doing AA and getting abstinant and the programme and all of that.
        Would help me be free of such things and such people.
        help me into a better life and better friendships.

  6. Massive, thank you for your tireless dedication. I look back and I was so naive when I got to AA, I am amazed I’m still alive. Just lucky, very lucky; which Karla was not, unfortunately.

    • bcm- thank you …thank you back!!! Me too. I got rides from some very creepy men looking back even in the 70’s.

  7. In this trial, you can expect AAWS to claim they are not a governing body and therefore have no control over the membership at large. They will probably produce bylaws and other behavioral evidence as proof of this supposed fact. It will appear legitimate. However, they walk a deliberately fine line there, because they can dictate a variety of requirements of an AA environment, and can strip an organization of “membership” in the organization. That sure looks like governance to me. If you can enforce, you are governing. The attorney must get past the written word and show behavioral evidence that contradicts their claims. There is tons of evidence out there when looked at from that perspective.

  8. SPJ Have you read the AA Service Manual Lately . Inside the Concepts will be their demise…or at least a serious shrinking of numbers

    Love you all so much today. No love bombing…I just have a real community here in cyber space…who understand me and has moved on. Some of you I speak with on the phone and others just blog and some join me on my radios show…but I feel you there leaving all the insanity, nutjobs of AA thinking behind us.

    I have a Producer now working with me .

    • My daughter is a make-up artist, if you wish. Not that you need make-up, cuz you are beautiful with or without. 🙂 I, too, thank you from my heart and soul for all the diligent work, research & activism. Had I known you in the program (cough choke), I would have surely asked you to be my sponsor. You are so wonderfully cool. Peace.

  9. HAPPY 1,000+ VIEWS!

    My real goal on this thread today, however, is to say THANK YOU! Thank you to Massive fo rthe phenomenal work she does and especially the Heart, Soul & Time she puts into supporting and working with the Bradas.

    Thank you to all who helped the Karla Brada video reach 1,000 views. It has taken a while, but we did it. The goal moving forward is to PUSH it to 5,000+ views…getting it closer to exponential growth and exposure.

    Every time a new family is exposed to the information in that video a life (or lives) are potentially saved because what parent is not going to look more into this IF they currently have a daughter, son or any loved one being sent by the courts to these meetings where violent criminals are also sent.

    So, thank you!

    Let’s keep moving FORWARD!


  10. i was reminded tonight of a t-shirt i wore pre aa and when i first went there.
    i wore it because thats what i wore then.among other things like my parka.
    The people already there the old timer’s would have been reading the lyric’s
    that were printed on it.

    i havent heard that song for years i looked it up again.
    the lyric’s, it’s so strange i always liked the song
    but now it has more meaning for me.
    it’s a long post but i wanted to send them.
    hope it don’t offend no one.

    Stairway to heaven
    There’s a lady who’s sure all that glitters is gold
    And she’s buying a stairway to heaven.
    When she gets there she knows, if the stars are all closed
    With a word she can get what she came for.
    Ooh, ooh, and she’s buying a stairway to heaven.

    There’s a sign on the wall but she wants to be sure
    ‘Cause you know sometimes words have two meanings.
    In a tree by the brook, there’s a songbird who sings,
    Sometimes all of our thoughts are misgiven.
    Ooh, it makes me wonder,
    Ooh, it makes me wonder.

    There’s a feeling I get when I look to the west,
    And my spirit is crying for leaving.
    In my thoughts I have seen rings of smoke through the trees,
    And the voices of those who stand looking.
    Ooh, it makes me wonder,
    Ooh, it really makes me wonder.

    And it’s whispered that soon if we all call the tune
    Then the piper will lead us to reason.
    And a new day will dawn for those who stand long
    And the forests will echo with laughter.

    If there’s a bustle in your hedgerow, don’t be alarmed now,
    It’s just a spring clean for the May queen.
    Yes, there are two paths you can go by, but in the long run
    There’s still time to change the road you’re on.
    And it makes me wonder.

    Your head is humming and it won’t go, in case you don’t know,
    The piper’s calling you to join him,
    Dear lady, can you hear the wind blow, and did you know
    Your stairway lies on the whispering wind.

    And as we wind on down the road
    Our shadows taller than our soul.
    There walks a lady we all know
    Who shines white light and wants to show
    How everything still turns to gold.
    And if you listen very hard
    The tune will come to you at last.
    When all is one and one is all
    To be a rock and not to roll.

    And she’s buying a stairway to heaven.

  11. I’ve been searching for NEW news about the Karla Brada murder trial, but there doesn’t seem to be any new information. IS there any new information? Another court date coming soon? Rest in Peace, Karla…

  12. Yes. October 22, 2013. There is a National Network News SHow high level that is following her murder and the AA connection and The fact that Jaro & Hector are suing AA. All of it.

    They see the problem of sending violent offenders and sex offenders to AA. Thank God! Over the next few months, we will see more exposing. It needs to become like the Catholic Church Scandal. ANd It will. I will release short 1 minute videos on my The 13th step the film YOUTUBE channel so you will be able to follow the progress in my film making. I plan to be done shooting in Late November.

    We will need some A list stars to support moderation, Smart and non AA help. I think the death of Corey from GLEE was the latest wake up call.

    • Hey Ms. Massive,
      Doing well? Hope so. There seems to be a lot of posts (see below) that don’t have anything to do with the Subject for this thread. Just curious.

      • Yeah, it kind of feels like disrespect for Karla to leave them there…Massive, please delete this one with the spam junk below….

        • yes thanks and please remind me if I miss this. I was away for 8 days and now back finishing up the film getting ready for a private viewing of the current cut of the movie. Yes this stuff is very intentional and disrespectful. Thanks again spj and Marchon.

  13. Oh Cyndy do f**k off, nobody cares what you think. Folks this is the troll from the Signal SCV newspaper article who has now got it into her indoctrinated head that a fellow Leaving AAer and I are ‘radical feminists’ by virtue of the fact that we were talking about the sexism of the big book, the abuse going on in meetings, and standing up for Karla’s rights. In Cyndy’s mind this now puts us in the same bracket as, – what was it Cyndy? – the KKK, a female serial killer and some topless south american feminists who daubed paint on the genitals of some Catholic men who were trying to prevent a teenage rape victim from having an abortion…. talk about take a thought and run with it.

    SPJ where are you when we need you?!


    • I’ve been on the road a bit.

      The really rabid ones come and go. They post junk and argue with bizarre points that they believe support their pro-AA opinion. Sometimes they post things to think about, but mostly they show the world how bizarre their thinking really is and eventually they get banned from moderated environments. They think their posts are helping their cause, when they are actually helping people understand the way indoctrinated AA cult members think. Just by being involved and being so rigid in their thinking, they don’t realize it, but they are improving their chances of waking up and leaving the cult of AA. The truth is right in front of them and if they think long enough it will become evident to them. We all want to be right, but there is only one truth. The statistics show AA and the 12 Step model are abysmal failures as a treatment for substance abuse in the aggregate over time. We now know that there are many, many people that have been harmed by the misogynistic and psychotic AA ecosystem and their stories will eventually be told. The pro-AA wack jobs are fighting a losing battle against common sense and real science and medicine.

      Sometimes I choose to engage and sometimes I choose not to. It’s my choice. I have no 1930’s cult religion to defend and try to make it look like something it is not. When I was in AA, I had no idea there was so much evidence and professional sentiment against it. That evidence and negative sentiment is growing far faster then AA is and that means AA is over as the dominant model for substance abuse treatment. No amount of pro-AA shenanigans is going to change that fact. If this becomes a national debate through some mechanism – probably the documented lack of efficacy and institutionalized misogyny, which is a powerful combination for change – there will be nothing they can say and their previous defense of the AA ecosystem will be an embarrassment for all to see. We are in the middle of a change in the social meme of AA. It stayed secret for a long time, did a lot of damage and helped some. When the amount of harm exceeds the amount of good and it is known by general society, AA’s social meme will change from positive, to neutral, to negative and it will be replaced by new methods that are made for the times. AA was a product of its time and that time is over. Science and medicine will replace good ole time religion and faith healing. It is only a matter of time and I predict several social movements will rise up against AA and the 12 Step Model to accelerate its long overdue fall. Here is a list of types of forces that will bring about change –
      1. Other treatment types – there are already several where few to none existed before.
      2. Women’s Rights Advocates
      3. Secular Social Organizations
      4. Children’s Safety Orgs
      5. Insurance companies
      6. Psychiatric Organizations
      7. New organizations whose express aim is to remove AA and the 12 Step Model from the substance abuse treatment landscape.

      AA simply can not withstand a huge barrage of the truth and more people are becoming aware of that truth on a daily basis. We could completely stop what we are doing and AA would still die out. The “decline of AA and the 12 Step model genie” is out of the bottle and nothing can put it back in.

      • Excellent post SPJ, thanks. And I really like how you emphasise it’s an ‘ecosystem’ because it really is, that captures it precisely.

        That nutjob is also all over Juliet’s latest fix article, still wittering on about topless south american radical feminists … you are right about how it demonstrates how bizarre their thinking is!

        • Oh, and I never really was one for reading the mind numbingly dull traditions, but just found this little beauty. 12×12 tradition three page 139

          “AA Tradition Three

          “The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking.”

          This Tradition is packed with meaning. For A.A. is really saying to every serious drinker, “You are an A.A. member if you say so. You can declare yourself in; nobody can keep you out. No matter who you are, no matter how low you’ve gone, no matter how grave your emotional complications – even your crimes – we still can’t deny you A.A. We don’t want to keep you out. We aren’t a bit afraid you’ll harm us, never mind how twisted or violent you may be. We just want to be sure that you get the same great chance for sobriety that we’ve had. So you’re an A.A. member the minute you declare yourself.”

          • Yes GS,
            This is the one that I often allude to in my posts. It says it all – how can aa sympathyzers not see that this tradition alone generates concern for safety.
            Here’s what I posted over on the NA DAYTONA site:
            I’m not surprised at thes response sunkist. The first paragraph of the 3rd Tradition in the 12 x 12 reads in part ……” You are an XA member if you say so. You can declare yourself in; nobody can keep you out”; “We don’t want to keep you out. We aren’t a bit afraid you’ll harm us, never mind how twisted or violent you may be.” This is what these arrogant people are ignoring, hence these violent EVIL crimes against women and children (and other men) are being perpetrated. I just can’t believe that these people want to defend this! This really bothers me to the core! – See more at: http://nadaytona.org/2014/11/09/na-member-james-effler-sexually-assaulted-toddler-girl-in-library-restroom/#comment-51796

            This was in reference to a sick pedophile. It made me physically sick……………

            • Thanks, I agree, having not read it for a couple of years I read it today and WHAM! I just thought, WHAT THE HELL????

              It’s amazing how lulled we get by the – as SPJ so beautifully coined it – AA ecosystem. I attended hundreds of step and tradition meetings and I don’t recall feeling alarmed by that passage, I’ve read it many, many times, but I read it today and I was really alarmed!

              It’s like ‘boiling a frog’ – apparently if you put a frog in a pan of cold water and then turn on the heat, it will slowly boil to death, as it does not detect the temperature rising slowly. I think this what AA is like, gradually, by degrees, you don’t realise how brainwashed you are getting. I fully and totally believed it. I dread to think what kind of scumbag with an agenda I was sitting next to. I wasn’t as naive as many I saw, but even so, I was still indoctrinated by the whole ‘we are all sick people trying to get well’ lie.

              I saw that story on NA Daytona, and that’s what I was unaware of in AA when I was there, I knew there were ‘sick’ people, ‘dry drunk’ people, but I suppose I hadn’t realised just how many people were there and being calculating about it, I bought into the idea that people ‘acting out’ were ‘diseased’ rather than they were hanging around an organisation, that because of traditions like this one and passages like the one we are discussing, knew they had / have carte blanche to do what they like, knowing full well that no one is really going to do anything.

            • I really was thrilled when I read this because I had read it a couple of years ago and was just trying to search it on the internet a week ago. You know what? I could not find it anywhere! I just had a general idea of the quote and I was soooo frustrated when I could not find it.

              Then you put it on NA Daytona website and I just could not believe my eyes!!!!!!!! Thank you!!!!!!!!

              I remember when I first read it that it was powerful proof that no one was too dangerous for AA, they accept anyone period. The organization is just sick pure and simple, and with this knowledge they set zero Safety guidelines?????? OMG- unbelievable.

              Thanks again for posting in both places because I never knew of anyone else quoting it and thought it would take more work to find it.

              http://www.nadaytona.org Violent Criminals in AA and NA

              • Hi Anti D.,

                Here’s the link for perusal. I think that the Mendez’ family lawyer should probabally have a copy so that they can show exactly how ‘twisted and violent’ some members are.
                If you right click and scroll down to ‘find’, left click a small search option will pop up.


                This from the first tradition is what gets me:
                “To many minds all this liberty for the individual spells
                sheer anarchy”. To me this equals covert and secret operations are permitted at the expense of the most vulnerable. How sad.

                It also sates that there is not a single “don’t” – er – yes there is they “don’t want to keep you out.”

                We could have a field day pointing out all the contradictions in the literature.

            • “We aren’t a bit afraid you’ll harm us, never mind how twisted or violent you may be.”

              So, who physically wrote that? Meaning, someone had to sit down and type it out and then it had to be ok’d by somebody or a group that deemed it as appropriate text and let it through.

              Next, what gave them the idea that sick and twisted people will not harm them? Seriously. Did they all eat protective Lucky Charms cereal for breakfast so that made them invincible? Or were they just completely unaware of what they were actually saying and what the words really meant? In the beginning of AA it was mid to upper class white men who drank too much, so did they even know who sick and twisted and violent people really were? Was there some kind of AA pixie dust that made it all better and magically protected them from mentally ill violent people? The sentiment is wonderful – we accept everybody. The reality, especially these days, is sick and twisted human time bombs are in AA and they go off with frightening regularity. Remember, when they originally wrote all this shit, they had no large population studies of their efficacy and they were just making it all up as they went along. At some point, they stopped making shit up and called it good without any proof of efficacy or safety and they won’t change any of it despite the evidence that the entire ecosystem is a made up sham as a treatment program and it has the potential to be a dangerous environment for the vulnerable people that believe it is more that it is, which is a faith-healing book club. I used to think, and my sponsor agreed, that I was somehow protected by sky daddy because I was doing good works. Tell that to the relatives and loved ones of the dead people in AA. If you get through the AA ringer and are not physically, psychologically or financially harmed, you are lucky and in the minority. Those that are killed by other AA members were the most unlucky of all and sky daddy was evidently in Cabo that day checkin out the babes and pounding margaritas and wasn’t around to protect those that got killed. When the kid in our area meetings killed a mother and daughter and burned their house with them in it, It was a real wake up call for me. I had to wonder really hard where the hell I was if there were actual killers in the same room. AA isn’t a tv show or a movie, it is real life, and in that real life, some AA members kill people. It’s not some random, one-off random event either and my guess is that the press anonymity thing keeps the truth about how many AA’s are killers and if society knew the real count, they would be appalled by the whole thing. I still contend that if there were some national campaign for people to come forward and tell their stories about how they were harmed by the AA ecosystem, the numbers would be shocking. You can mix carpenters with plumbers and secretaries and professors, but if the truly sick, twisted and violent have free reign in an anonymous social environment where there is zero accountability, bad things are GUARANTEED to happen. To ask it another way, ” who is there to stop them from “acting out””? The answer is no one and that is a recipe for disaster and those disasters occur with alarming regularity. No amount of pro-AA “testimony” or nonsensical circular arguments changes that truth.

              • Great analysis spj. That chapter goes on to provide two examples to support their contention about establishing “the only rule” in support for “keeping it simple.” One is about a man with a “double stigma” and the other about the atheist Ed who finally conformed to AA’s warped theology and religiousity.
                Who’s intelligence did they think they were insulting? Please.

                • Right, we have to look at this from a social angle and time. If you could time transport a super-tatted, buffed to the max ex-con with an anger management problem and meth brain, sporting a multi-color mohawk hair cut with large plugs in his ear lobes and nose and eyebrow rings into one of the first meetings of AA, the dude would be a complete freak and they would put him in a mental institution or the circus. Does anyone really think that person would be “accepted” in AA? I strongly suspect not. Look around people. It is not 1935. The old timers that were born in the 40’s and 50’s are from a completely different generation and, quite frankly, few of them are plugged into the present. AA was for the present of 1935 when society was not what it is today. Education and Harm Reduction and things like SMART Recovery and medication and psychotherapy and mindfullness are the methods of today.

                  The foundational concepts of substance abuse treatment of powerlessness and self-knowledge availing nothing and ONLY a higher power can provide “relief” have been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to be false and it is time to shut those notions down and the sooner the better. ” Fellowship” ( even that is misogynistic) of like minded people is powerful for healing, but if the shared and promoted basic concepts for healing in that social ecosystem are false, over time, more harm than good comes out of it. We are seeing those negative results being revealed now, and people are finally speaking up, and I still contend that if all the people harmed by the 12 Step ecosystem could step forward and tell their stories, it would dwarf the number of “AA saved my life” stories.

                  One last thing. The 3-5% positive results for AA and 12 Step facilitation are significantly below even the placebo effect. So, for a success rate, it is below the known rate of doing nothing or pretending to have a solution when you really don’t. That alone speaks volumes about the “AA saved my life” minority crowd.
                  Interesting stuff on placebo effect – http://listverse.com/2013/02/16/10-crazy-facts-about-the-placebo-effect/

    • GS, I just love it when you tell people to f*ck off. It’s always so well deserved when you do it. I also like your other Brit term ‘Barking Mad’. 🙂

      • Haha, thank you 🙂

        Us Brits are quite good at coming up with expressions for nuttiness (I wonder what this says about us) but on the subject of Cyndy, off the top of my head:

        – A few sandwiches short of a picnic
        – bonkers
        – madder than a box of frogs
        – mad as a hatter
        – barmy
        -Lost the plot
        – off her trolley
        -bats in the belfrey
        -away with the fairies

        Think that about covers it!


  14. Awesome talk on TED about domestic violence and how it’s about sexism – it’s men’s problem, not a women’s issue. AA is profoundly sexist. Until the conversation moves so we can talk about AA’s sexism and AA’s abuse issues that come from the way it sets up and perpetuates the problem then things aren’t going to change. As evidenced by the way Karla has been blamed. It’s heartening to see many good guys speaking up like this guy speaking up.

    This film talks about how we need to stop focusing on what the woman was doing and not doing and stop blaming the women who speak up – I’d really, really recommend it http://www.ted.com/talks/jackson_katz_violence_against_women_it_s_a_men_s_issue?language=en

    • Thanks for this link, Girlscout. Loved the film. Have heard of this guy. What a great guy! It seems like something men will start doing soon. I mean, how long can you side with this trashy sexism that’s everywhere, including AA very much.! It’s starting a little bit in my area in the alternative press. I think it’s great.

      • I know he’s good isn’t he. Maybe you could interview him on your radio show? I definitely think he could be a good ally as his specialism is organisations and leadership and sexism …. I liked what he said about ‘bystander’ training, that we need to get better at intervening on stuff when we see other people do it. That definitely does NOT happen in AA, people are too busy ‘minding their own business’.

  15. The Third Tradition is the crux of the AA program. It’s very religious. It’s saying that AA is like Jesus Christ, who would never turn anyone away. All saints try to heal the lowest of the low. Jesus hung out with prostitutes, thieves, and sinners. It probably wouldn’t work at all if some were turned away. It’s saying that God knows no boundaries; God’s love envelops everyone and animals and creation also; nothing would ever be excluded. That kind of faith actually does heal people. AA is a church then, whose members sit around talking about their drinking problems.

    The Christian Jesus was a man of unconditional love, whose faith was so strong that it totally healed people, body, mind and soul.

    The Jewish Jesus wasn’t supernatural at all. He wasn’t about this kind of love and faith. The Jewish Jesus was history’s highest patriot. He stood up to the Romans and was fearless in his denunciations and actions against them. The Romans were very, very brutal and their crimes against the Jews were very severe, including enslaving them. You just didn’t cross a Roman, because they were the ultimate terrorists. But Jesus did, and he was inciting the Jews to rise up against their oppressors, and that is why the Jewish Jesus was tortured and murdered. The Jewish Jesus was about love then too, but also this huge love of justice.

    If AA wants to continue, they will probaby have to incorporate both Jesus’. All are included, but if you hurt one of the members, you will be swifly dealt with and held to high standards of rigorous amends to the people you harm. Much more openness and honesty, discussion, and debate. More bravery. It seems to me.

    • But acting or saying that they are the chosen ones (a la bb) is not good. It can be a sign that these old timers who swallow the religiousity of AA are having a psychological problem which needs the assistance of medical professionals. Maybe Bill W. had a Mesiah Complex.
      It appears to me that that may be the case given all the people that we know have been harmed by the obvious indiffernce these people have towards the vulnerable and the reluctance to OWN the FACT that they do not – even with the venerated traditions – incorporate warnings about dangerous people in the rooms.
      Jesus also called evil just that – EVIL.
      I don’t believe that this is the place to get into a theological debate about the traditions. It’s what the traditions DO NOT say (i.e. about protecting and warning vulnerable people from dangerous people in the rooms) is the problem here.

      • Good points, Marchon.

        The BB should not claim to be “the only one”. That is just wrong. The BB and 12 & 12 contain a lot of errors that have misled people, myself included.

        Bill Wilson was a Vermonter, and they are deeply political. So, by establishing the Traditions, he left the program open to democratic change through the membership. That is a good thing. He fully expected AA to change and grow through the democratic process. It hasn’t because, even we, living here in a democracy, don’t exercise these rights like we could.

        “Peace is war,
        Freedom is slavery,
        Ignorance is bliss”

        My opinion is, if you give warnings about evil, dangerous people in the rooms, this will not heal the “evil ones” at all. But if you, say, read a statement of belief in the group’s right to have a completely safe environment, and that someone not respectful of that would have to answer to the group, or leave

        • Didn’t mean to post that comment yet. I am trying to edit my comments, etc…

          …but if a group were to read a statement at the beginning of each meeting, instead of some of the BB readings, consisting of the group’s commitment to a safe place to talk about our drinking problems, and any individual not honoring our commitment will be dealt with in some manner. This is one idea. An idea needs a lot of persistence behind it to make it a reality.

          • Yes if they stopped all 3 readings, The preamble, Chapter 5 and the 12 traditions and just read a safety statement and no holding hands with prayer…. it would make it better.

            A lot of new brainwashing would stop and then the old timers would wake up sooner and leave AA!

            LOL 🙂

          • All I know is that this ‘program’ has had almost 80 years to “self correct” and they haven’t or have refused to do so as of yet.

            Hopefully this lawsuit and Ms. Massive’s truth telling film will shed light on this.

        • Bill W. (by his own account) was also a washed up stock broker which makes me wonder what his true motives really were.

          He spun and high jacked religious teachings to make the program all inclusive – all along insulting women and non believers along the way.

          Was this in order to continue selling his out dated, vintage writings into the 21st Century? I don’t think we’ll ever really know the truth to that. But there is some evidence within the context of his funky writings that suggest just that.

          It is really exhausting to have to constantly read between the lines when it comes to the traditions.

          Maybe “evil” and “dangerous” is not the right verbiage to use, but how about “twisted and violent”? It’s in the literature…………..

  16. Traditions are the strongest part of AA. I always felt there was something there that could definitely improve the day to day working of the AA program. I meant to go to pure Tradition meetings to really clarify to myself what AA was all about, but I never did. There was a 12 & 12 meeting I attended regularly that purposely did not discuss the traditions. That meeting discussed the 12 steps over and over again. Without the traditions, you get a really lopsided, moralizing, cultic group. The old-timer who ran this group really needed the traditions to balance and help the people there, but instead it degenerated into the usual stuff.

    As I peruse the traditions from the link Marchon included, I see that Tradition 1, the one about AA unity comes first, could certainly be looked at to mean that the group will only survive IF the individual members are protected and given more hands on handling, like accountability for crimes against other members. There was definitely too much looking away and “minding one’s own business”.

    A few years ago, I was chairing a meeting for a couple months. Right under my nose, a member 13th Stepped a new person. He engaged her in a relationship. They became a couple (both middle-aged), for awhile. I never confronted him, although it bothered me. I didn’t feel it was polite to ask him what was going on, or her either. I also thought that maybe a little romance was good for both parties. Now I think I should have boldly confronted him about it. He probably would have gotten angry, he was frequently an angry speaker, and I was afraid of that. Or I could have talked frankly to her about it. She stopped coming around. I did notice that some of the other men would make veiled references to 13th Stepping, and this guy did get the message, and moved on somewhere. The groups definitely need to stand together on what is really important for recovery.

    As for the 3rd Tradition, the one about not excluding anyone, what if AA had turned Tina Dupuy away, saying, you have a double stigma, we can’t deal with you? I’ve seen “hopeless cases” given maybe the only chance they’ve ever had to get a toehold on life.

    I really feel AA needs to come into the 21st Century. Keep what is good, but constantly refine what is bad.

    • Can you define specifically and with evidence what is good about the “program of AA”?

      imo, it is rotten to the core and based on deceit and manipulation and is not based on science or medicine. If you changed AA, and removed the deceit, manipulation and pure fantasy, and based it on evidence-supported methods, you would end up with something that would look like SMART Recovery.

      • spj- I really thought that the 1st tradition Our common welfare should come first…was the answer to it all.

        Yet when it was brought up they just glazed over and heard nothing.

      • One good thing about AA: There are a lot of good people in AA. They have good intentions and are willing to reach out and help others.

        Another good thing about AA: The spirituality. I learned and relearned the religion of my upbringing, in AA. Also learned about other forms of spirituality. Religion isn’t fantasy. I think that yes indeed, we need to learn how to think rationally. But maybe there is a time and place for rationality, and also a time and place for fancy, imagination, counting our blessings (gratitude in AA), mystery, contemplation, the sacred. We have to learn to use our brains, but also our Third Eye.!

        A third thing: The Traditions. I think the AA founders incorporated the Traditions to safeguard the program from growing and expanding mindlessly, from religious zealotry. He saw the way the Oxford Group expanded in membership and to stop that sort of mindless growth, with the Traditions, there would be the members’ input behind it. There aren’t many churches that have this capacity to interface members with the governing body. I admire that. I guess that’s what makes it not a real church, but a democratic “religious society”.

        Was looking over the Smart website, and it does sound like a good approach. A very good approach. It makes you wonder how addiction recovery programs can be so different! Perhaps some people are more suited to one approach or another, but still these newer ideas of addiction should be part of mainstream thinking, not just the AA model.

        “AA is rotten to the core”, in that, like Massive was describing in her post about the Clare dinner, it’s many misconceptions about addiction are too pervasive in society. Example: the “chosen ones” mentality; that is just unnecessary. A big problem with that mentality, is that it makes people who want to quit drinking, and who may even be in AA but relapsing, feel inferior to the “chosen ones”! There was such a “haves” vs “have nots” in the program. The “chosen ones” mentality does not help the “have nots” at all, it sets them at even another disadvantage.

        I hate to watch those “Intervention” shows on TV, and watch an entire family have to swallow the current “addict” myths. The family is in upheaval, the interventionist introduces all this depressing “true” information and you watch this family launched on this really dangerous path. Although some of these interventionists are worse than others. And some families are helped. But how did it get that bad, to begin with? Because there wasn’t a sane, approachable, attractive recovery system in mainstream thought. The “addict” was filled with erroneous myths about addiction from the start. They fulfilled those prophecies, and more.

        Have a nice day, SPJ!

        • I think a lot of confusion comes about because there are three aspects to “AA” and maybe four.

          1. The social component – yes, there are some nice and well intentioned people but the “nice” people are not the “program”, which is what I asked about. It could be argued the spiritual aspect even comes from the social component because it is the people that do the searching and relating about that search and there is nothing in the “program” that specifically states to deeply investigate the world of spirit other than the specific reference about religion. There is deceit in that they really manipulate people to finally come around to a Judeo-Christian gawd and that manipulation is well documented.
          2. The organization – the traditions are part of the organizational component. AA is organized and they lie about that fact in every meeting. Deceit. It is not a direct part of the substance abuse treatment “program”, it is how the organization keeps running and expanding.
          3. The “program” that is a treatment for alcohol abuse. Some would say it is the 12 Steps, but there is so much confusion over how they are really implemented and so meshed with the other 2 components that, upon close examination, it is a jumbled mess of nonsense mostly designed to keep expanding through voluntary missionary work in Step 12.
          4. This is a corollary, but the main book used in all of this has the same social meme name as the “organization”. So, literally, when someone says “Alcoholics Anonymous” do they mean the book, the program or the organization, or all of it? You will notice that there is no legal organization at the top of AA, called simply ” Alcoholics Anonymous”, they are AAWS, AAGSO and AA Grapevine. The legal and trademarked name for “Alcoholics Anonymous” is for a book, not a treatment regimen or fellowship. One could say that the meetings are book club gatherings for the book legally named and protected called ” Alcoholics Anonymous”.

          In reality the whole thing is a confused legal literal mess and is NOT effective across populations for getting people to abstain or modify their consumption of alcohol.

          The social, “spiritual” and organizational aspects you speak of can be encountered in many other ways and not just through AA. The same aspects you liked about “AA” can be found in the Salvation Army, Habitat for Humanity and other non-profits or even spirituality-related meetups. “AA” does not have a monopoly on nice people, spirituality, or organizational structure and by-laws. I say by-laws because the word “Traditions” is meaningless to organizational structure.
          Definition of Traditions –
          “A tradition is a belief or behavior passed down within a group or society with symbolic meaning or special significance with origins in the past.”

          What “past” was Wilson referring to when he created the “Traditions” of AA? More deceit from a con man with a huge ego.

          I am not attacking your genuine observations, as some of them were mine until I really started to dissect the ecosystem.

          An ecosystem of some nice people, “spirituality” and a parasitically expanding organizational structure doesn’t equate to an effective and proven scientific and medical substance abuse treatment methodology. Once I studied the Sinclair Method, the degree of nonsense that is encased in the AA ecosystem became readily apparent.

          Humanity is entering a dangerous period with a plethora of old and new substances that are very problematic. Never before has such a large percentage of the global population had problems with adversely affecting substances and it is only increasing. We need real, proven, scientific and medical means of dealing with this growing blight on humanity, and AA and TSF is clearly NOT the answer.

          • I agree with spj in that just having a few nice people does not make something good. I fi had to attend meetings randomly to do a study in Los Angeles and see how friendly they were and wore a wire and recored it I bet it would not be pretty. In the end I went to a meeting in Santa Monica that you had to have 10 or more years to speak. No one welcomes me, no one said hi, no one was friendly….they were the ugliest group of people …wrose then guys I knew when I brought meetings into prison…I kid you not….I had ever seen. Im sorry …but AA is going to collapse in on itself over the next 3-5 years.

            The Catholic Church helped millions but also molested children and got away with it for a very long time.

            AA is like the invisible war meets the Catholics Church Sex abuse scandal.

            There are many things I find wrong with AA. I also have a problem sitting in those meetings with people have ing to call themsleves an alcoholic long after they stopped …like 30 years…sober and that those with a lot of “time ” are better then those that relapse.

            OMFG that is such Bullsh**t and nonsense. There is so much wrong with and they will never make any changes unless they are sued their pants off.

            • Yes, I see the paralell now between the Catholic church scandals and the AA member’s rapes and murders. I didn’t see it before. The priests were protected and the kids weren’t. Most Catholics were really shocked about it, though. The new pope is saying now that any priests still doing this will be excommunicated, which is a really bold step that should have been done a long time ago. He is saying that this is a terrible crime, not some little thing we can sweep under a rug.!

  17. spj- so true- but I went to a Clare Foundation Tribute Dinner the other night to see how deep Hollywood was invested in the Clare Foundation AA driven rehab.
    Stars from True Blood were there at the podium acting as if they were at an AA meeting by saying before they spoke.

    ” HI , Im Joe, and Im an alcoholic” IN the Ballroom at The Loews Hotel in Santa Monica. He bragged how there were 9 sober AA people on the Crew of True Blood and compared AA members to Vampires! Like that is a good thing ….

    There was Chuck Lorre a few tables in front of me and various people kissing his …. It was like a Hollywood Insider stepper cult secret society shin dig. It was hard to sit through. When others saw my half class of wine in from of me they looked at it, looked at me, looked at it and the conversation never went further.

    They are incapable of having a normal conversations with people that are normal cause they think they are special. My assistant was with me and she almost spit her water out from hearing the stepper talk from the stage.

    The point is it was as usual very disturbing to see how Hollywood has adored, embraced and been brainwashed by the AA cult.

    • my guess is it has been that way for a very long time. If cults or secret societies aren’t challenged or legislated out of existence, they simply continue to grow, especially if missionary work is part of being in the society/cult. AA operates like a religion of abstinence and if you aren’t abstinent, you aren’t “one of them”. Having a glass of wine at an event of the religion of abstinence is pure heresy in their minds. But they don’t judge or anything and love and tolerance is their code – not.

    • Tina Dupuy said that in the BB it says that if you think you can drink then go out and try it. It’s true, it does say that. Most of what I thought was the program of AA was other folks’ takes on what so and so said, or whatever. The program of AA is all that is written in the conference approved literature. That’s the core of the program, not what people say. I was not a big reader of AA books, and so I foolishly depended on others to tell me what it was all about. ??

      Steps, Traditions, fellowship: I appreciate and admire your analysis. You have done a lot of research and I need to do some more to answer my own questions. I have written a long response and will try to type it soon.

      • Last post @ SPJ.

        This one to Massive’s. That is so funny. Isn’t True Blood a sick and weird show anyway? I’ve seen about 5 minutes of it, and I didn’t like it. They are AA’s?! It kind of makes sense.

        All I know of Chuck Lorre is Two and a Half Men. That show is pure garbage. I’m catching it in reruns, well not anymore, it was so stupid and unfunny. Poor Charlie Sheen was just going through the motions. I don’t think that show has ANY redeeming value.

        What is the Clare Foundation?

        Thank you for your humorous take on that.

      • When Tina says that about what the BB says that is true. But hardly anyone thinks like that or acts like that. There is a lot of judgment when pp try to talk about moderation . Like Yea sure…

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