“News” Stories-About Alcoholics Anonymous – Sexual Harassment- and so much more!

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203 thoughts on ““News” Stories-About Alcoholics Anonymous – Sexual Harassment- and so much more!

  1. I don’t know if anyone has been watching, but the fellas at aacultwatch are planning to use the information from Stinkin’ Thinkin’, Stop13stepinaa, etc….. to the AA Conference (GB 2012) as a minority report. Here is a link to a pdf explaining the information:


    Here is what they are trying to accomplish:

    “This document comprises an analytical and critical survey of the Fellowship in 2011, discussing the complex dynamics surrounding current events occurring in the USA, UK and Canada and relating these to past events and to AA Traditions and Concepts.

    The discussion begins with two examples of active leadership, one by Bill W. in the 1940s, the other by a committee in Santa Monica California USA, in 1958; it then moves on to include current events. The outcome exposes a hazardous departure from Tradition, serious and growing internal divisions and public concerns. It also exposes a widespread and hazardous misconception in the application of A.A. Traditions. And a situation where neither A.A. Tradition, nor General Warranties of Conference are withstanding in today’s fellowship. This causes us to feel duty bound to place this as a minority report before the UK General Service Conference 2012.


    The grounds for submission of a minority report;
    The principle of anonymity upheld.

    1) The conference procedures are given in the AA Service Handbook for Great Britain section 10-3, 10-4. This can be accessed online at the UK GSO website:

    Concept V explains the criteria and reasons for sending a minority report.

    A minority report can be sent by any AA members, at any level in the service structure from A.A. group to Conference.

    Concept V states that all minorities should be encouraged to file minority reports whenever they feel that a majority is in considerable error. That they should charge themselves with the actual duty to file a minority report if they consider the issue to be such a grave one that it could affect A.A. as a whole. The main function of a minority report is to protect against the making of a grave error and to restrain those in authority from unjust uses of their power. The well heard minority is therefore our chief protection against an uninformed, misinformed, hasty or angry majority.

    The Conference steering committee will decide whether to put the contents of the report and any questions arising from it to conference for discussion.

    2) “Anonymity is the spiritual foundation of all our traditions, ever reminding us to place principles before personalities.” (Tradition 12)

    It is AA Tradition that the names of those who make submissions of topics /questions to conference are kept confidential. The same principle of anonymity applies to minority reports. It also applies to officially published AA pamphlets and books, the authors are not accredited except for a few titles by Bill W. The names of authors of the report are not accredited since this, according to AA Tradition is irrelevant, the subject matter of the report is what is important. It was co-authored by a number of AA members residing in the UK.

    In fellowship


    Comment: A useful analysis of the challenge presented by cult groups within the Fellowship both in Great Britain and North America”

    Source: http://aacultwatch.blogspot.com/

    • JR- wow that is cool. DOes that mean I should send a new minority report to Ny Headquarters for their next event in April 2012.

      • I just read alot of what the Uk is going to present. Very interesting. I could file a minority report with my district and Area and make them hear us. I think I’ll just write one and send to NY.

      • I’m all over this. I have downloaded, printed and burned it, that sucker isn’t going anywhere! I haven’t had the opportunity to read it thoroughly, however what I have is very useful information.

    • I know what!
      lets all write to the westboro baptist church.
      and see if we can convince them to pickett the AA world services, I have been writing them and telling them that AA deserves to be picketted by westboro baptist church
      what do you all say to that ??? I think it would be a great Idea

      • just think how funny it would be seeing signs what say
        god hates AA
        god hates12 step programs
        AA is a sex raping club
        AA is a sodomite anti god cult
        bill w dr bob are in hell doing there forth step

  2. One thing may be evident with Alcoholics Anonymous that we have been missing. Everyone on these blogs has had some major exposure to AA and the 12 Steps, whether it be through Rehabs, Employee Assistant Plans (EAP), Al-Anon (sometimes called Al-Annon), Co-Dependents Anonymous (CoDA), Court Mandated AA/NA attendance, Department of Motor Vehicle (DMV) DUI/OVI/UVI recidivism programs or your friends, family, clergy or neighbor. Not everyone that is in these programs are Spiritual abusers. Many in fact are very nice and they do not like what they are seeing either, and are willing to try and make a change to the system.

    While aacultwatch may be considered a “back to basics” group and shunned by some, they have a global following in both the US and UK. I believe that it is true that they do wish to grow the fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous started by Bill Wilson (aka, Bill W., William Griffith Wilson) in 1936 and published in 1939, but they do not like the path that the current fellowship is following. I do not believe that the majority of people on these sites do either. They have been using the information we have been researching to make changes. Lets keep giving them the information they need.

    On a side note, aacultwatch has identified some of the more “cheesier” marketing attempts that people are using to make money off of the AA fellowship. This is analogous to the use of the “Pink Ribbon” which is an international symbol of breast cancer awareness by people who do not appear to be contributing to the cause. They have identified some of these items in the Minority Report they have filed such as:

    Recovery “Welcome” Newcomer Chocolate Bar
    …this Premium Chocolate Bar is the perfect gift for any Newcomer! This is a very unique and fun way to say Welcome! This Recovery Bar comes in either Milk Chocolate or White Chocolate. It measures approx. 6.5″ x 1.5″.
    Our Price: $4.95 http://www.my12stepstore.com/product418.html

    Bill W. Bobblehead
    This Resin figure of the AA Founder makes a super fun gift! 7 inches tall.
    Our Price: $21.95

  3. I have my doubts that “the Fellas” will be taken seriously, but I congratulate them on trying! We have a lot of Joe and Charlie worship in my area, we have a couple of treatment centers that use their “Recovery Dynamics” program. It is very strange to hear some young guy from a hard upbringing, no more than 25 years old, spouting 1930’s sentax like a programmed machine, except with the fire of an evangelical preacher. That’s what Recovery Dynamics will give you though. That and the people in the treatment centers being forced to endure painful dental surgeries and other medical proceedures with no pain medication allowed afterward. Brain washing and torture.

    The best slogan spouting examples of the most recent graduates of these RD treatment centers are kept on as “assistant staff”. In other words, they get to make the newer clients obsessively analyze the alcoholic motives of their recurring belly-button lint and the center pays them next to nothing for their trouble since they are eternally grateful for the love of the center.

      • Where do you jump into these chats,have not heard of some of this before,glad I didn’t. Have seen and heard some of the most disgusting crap go on.I want a Bill bobble head for target practice.Sex in the parking lot at the club house,and that was not always by newcomers,soo much drama,so much deceit.I am in a small town with it’s own clubhouse and,even as much as some people have tried,the thumpers always get their way.I have gotten into the thumpers faces after being around awhile,after I found the nerve to stand up for myself.

        • Hi rod ! Welcome.
          can you tell us the name of the clubhouse and city it is in so we can yelp it? LOL….

          No seriously . I am serious. Name of clubhouse, City, state and some of the worst old timer predators. First and Last names . Thanks :)))))

          If everyone did this they would all shit!

          • Very sick behavior going on right now and has been for quite sometime in cuyahoga Falls Ohio AA club. The most recent should of brought an arrest. But the club management turned a blind eye. Still ongoing situation . ( could use some support on this ugly situation. Thanks

          • Marie,

            I believe you are talking about the pARIDise Club at 1710 Front St. in Cuyahoga Falls, OH 44221. The club was started after a fire at the ARID Club (which has since closed down after re-opening) and Alcoholics Anonymous Multi-District Area 54 that has a monthly meeting there the third Saturday of the month at 4:00 PM.


            Interestingly AA Area 54 is run out of the Paridise Club in Cuyahoga Falls ($450,000 in Assets). They are having trouble retaining DCMs and they just voted themselves an increase of their “stipend” from $75 to $100…. Many people are quitting.


            PARIDISE INC
            1710 FRONT ST
            CUYAHOGA FLS, OH 44221-4712

            EIN: 341002293
            Ruling Date: 11/1976
            NTEE: Z99Z – UNKNOWN

            Last tax Return 2011:

            The pARIDise Club, Inc. claims to run 12 AA meetings out of the facility, Al-anon and Alateen meetings and Tax Free Bingo and is registered with the Akron Intergroup at https://akronaa.org .

          • Oh my…

            This situation is the worst case scenario. First and foremost it must be reported Marie.

            Thank you for having the courage to reach out and speak up about this.

            As a survivor of childhood molestation and then rape as a teen, I can tell you that you are fighting for the lives and future mental, emotional, physical and spiritual well being of these children.

            You likely already have the following information, but just in case:

            Chief of Police in Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio
            is The Thomas L. Pozza

            Chief of Police
            (330) 971-8300

            Captain’s Office
            (330) 971-8307

            (330) 971-8332



            Cuyahoga County Children and Family Services

            24 Hour Child Abuse Hotline
            All reports of child abuse and neglect
            should be made to:
            (216) 696-KIDS

            That will put a stop to those nasty, vile bastards!

          • With what has already happened in the Catholic Church and Penn State… AA is prime for being exposed for this nasty shyt…and they are the WORST offenders!

            Please review this info from OP:

            They will be FORCED to protect The Children… and that old arrogant BS they hide behind will not help them any more than it has helped the priests and coaches!

            Thank you Marie!

            More people will be lead by your example.

  4. Great info JR! I think if I understand it correctly Massive,it would not hurt to send a minority report to NY. As far as JR’s point,I do kinda think adhering to Bill W’s take on AA has some positives. For example,the point that all groups are autonomous unless they effect NA as a whole.This is one I keep coming back to.It seems in Bill W’s day that they did take action over certain groups that had given them a bad name and were not following traditions. The AA and NA of today refuse to do squat-even when it comes to criminal activities and children being sexually abused. They do have the power to do something based on their own traditions,yet nothing. So I do think in some ways AA would be at least a bit safer if they exercised the right they have to take action over groups gone awry.

  5. Here is an excerpt from aa cult watch

    Abusive/coercive sponsorship within a cult group is clearly a public matter affecting
    other groups and AA as a whole, “an incitement to public controversy” (Concept 12,
    Warranty 5), which warrants intervention under the exception to group autonomy in
    Tradition 4. The responsibility to protect the vulnerable from abuse, preserve A.A.
    unity and AA public relations lies with the “trusted servants” and “elder statesmen”
    within the intergroup. However, responsibility also lies at regional and board levels,
    to unequivocally support such interventions

    • And as the man was bleeding to death the others in AA
      shouted “You did it so dont moan to us look for your part
      in it you caused all your own problems ”
      wouldnt suprise me if they did that-
      cause thats what they did to me when my life was threatned-
      AA a safe place to be

  6. http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/global/story.asp?s=13017668

    Mother daughter are victims in a apparent murder- suicide.

    AA member meets AA member. AA member doesn’t want to date him anymore. He was sentenced by Court and Mental Health professionals to AA as part of his “plan”. Maybe someone should have told the professionals in Honolulu that AA IS NOT PROFESSIONAL! And that it is the blind leading the blind.

    Next- AA man won’t leave AA woman alone and begins to stalk her.
    the end. He kills her and her daughter. Then himself.

    Maybe AA is dangerous and un professional and no one should ever be sentenced to it as part of their “Plan”.

    Things need to change.

    • go to the westboro baptist church web site and look up priest rape boys.com and the catholic church is a pedophile rape michian

      • Thank you for highlighting this recent incident. It must definately be addressed. I have been working on fleshing my site out. It’s still rough, but it’s getting there.

        One of the main pages to be further developed is the Letters to Send page here:


        On this page I will be making letters available that anyone supporting the AA Awareness Movement can copy, customize and send out (I pray) far and wide!

        The first letter on my list of development is the Letter to Churches…

        I do not believe that most church officials and especially church goers really know what is going on and who is going onto their church grounds..

        It’s time they found out

  7. Just a story I’ve been following for other reasons than the ones here, but from here:


    “She responded: ‘That’s a good question and that’s what I had to ask myself. I didn’t know about the video until, well, this past April. And this past weekend was the first time I saw it. My answer to you and to the world is something that I’ve been hiding for a very long time is a family secret and that’s addiction.’

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2056582/Judge-William-Adams-beats-disabled-daughter-Hillary-16-YouTube-video.html#ixzz1dJkyXOhb

    • Oh so he’s an addict so now he get’s off from beating his kid FUCK HIM!
      Thanks for posting this ….let’s see where it leads him. TO a rehab …. to AA.. Let me throw up AHHHHHHHHH.

  8. If anyone has been following the murder trial of Herbert Tracy White (49) of Hollywood California by the accused Edward Garcia Jr. (36) and Melissa Hope Garcia (25) of York, PA at the Continental Hotel, 802 E. Seventh St, Los Angeles, CA on Nov 28, 2010, here is the America’s most wanted story on it:


    This really is a shocking story. I believe that Massive has been going to the trial that just started.

    • Yes JR I went yesterday to the pretrial. I was so disgusted by these two. What a wonderful family Tracy had, has…a very sad sad horrible disgusting murder. I pray for a fair and SPEEDY……trial.

      Thanks for re posting a working link.

  9. MASSIVE asked me to post this article from the Home page; computer problems.

    Dispute at Baldwin Park meeting ends in shooting

    Posted: 11/10/2011 09:56:59 PM PST

    BALDWIN PARK – An argument between two men during an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting led to a woman being shot in the head Thursday night.
    Officers are looking for the shooter.

    Baldwin Park police Lt. Joe Bartolotti said the woman is the wife of one of the men.

    The shooting broke out about 7:30 p.m. in a church parking lot at Stewart Avenue and Los Angeles Street.

    Bartolotti said the men got into a fight during an AA meeting held at the church. He didn’t know what the dispute was about.

    The fight spilled into the parking lot. Bartolotti said one of the men pulled out a gun and fired once.

    The round didn’t hit the other man who police said was the intended target. The man’s wife who was sitting in a car was shot instead.

    Police weren’t sure if the husband was also inside the car at the time of the shooting.

    The vehicle rolled across the street and came to rest at the curb.

    Bartolotti said the woman was taken to Los Angeles County USC Medical Center where she was listed in stable condition.

    The suspect fled the scene. He was only described as a Latino about 20 wearing a gray hooded sweatshirt and jeans.

    Read more: http://www.sgvtribune.com/ci_19311226#ixzz1dP39SIOL

    • Other than a few posts on the Internet there is very little news about the part that the “program” or “meetings” play in crimes; it makes me wonder if it’s because one of the owners of a large media outlet is a member of the fellowship. After going to meetings for a couple of decades and seeing some sicko pose as Santa at an Alkathon, luring in children, finding a way to go public without punishment is on my mind!!!!!

      • welcome whistleblower! Yes that is why. I know that a reporter at the NY Times is a huge stepper and we found great resistance at the LA times when we tried to get them to print the truth they printed a huge “puff piece” search in youtube for AA puff piece and you will see a video I made.

        I met with Keeper of The Birds last Sunday. Her son was molested and murdered by his sponsor, It was a ring of 23 men…pedophiles who were targeting AA meetings and rehabs for young teen males. It took four years for them to catch them.

        There is someone in the media that is talking to me. We’ll see what happens. You can contact me at makeaasafer@gmail.com or post away the truth.

        Its going to be exposed. We are done with the suppression of the sexually criminal and financial scamming behavior going on in AA./NA.

        and btw…I heard that a huge meeting in LA, “Rodeo” was told to find another meeting place! It’s about time.

        • any idea why the rodeo were told to go elsewhere?

          Why does it not surprise me the predator philes are targeting young vunerable youngster at the meetings.
          How did they catch them?

          • Eddie- I do not know why, regarding rodeo.

            who …the perps in FLorida or north Carolina? The FBI, and he Federal Marshals caught him because of a woman in rehab was there when Gerald Estes was bragging about what he had done…, the cops were no help on this case.

            Anyway, Gerald Estes and 23 other pedophiles went to prison. Then a serial killer who was killing pedophiles murdered Estes in Prison. (it was alike like Dexter the TV show but real and it happened over 10 years ago.

            He is dead now too. I know the mother of this child, and it is a horrific story that stills needs addressing. Which I intend to do. Perhaps these two stories along with Kristine and Saundra Cass’s murder will help change the law at a federal level.

      • Whistleblower,

        you have an excellent point. In 2010 in the Tampa area a woman basically had her ex-lover from NA assinated by a local motrcycle gang member because the guy refused to give her the tapes they made while they were having sex.

        The event made the local TV news one night, and I was going to buy a copy of the article that came out in the local paper owned by the same media company, but they killed the story.

        So the media does protect 12 Step programs, but possibly to the detriment of their members. I wanted to keep the article to warn my sponsees at that time about the dangers of dating in the program. I have seen some knock down drag out problems develop over dating and marriages in AA.

        Another great media story occurred in St. Petersburg Florida at a district meeting where they were stupid enough to have a mother and her 16 year old son lead the convention and he got to share his story, while being filmed.

        He told about every sin his mother ever committed, including selling prescription pain killers, a class A felony, while being filmed! She was sitting two chairs to his right on the stage and was in shock. Yow!

        What an event to watch. I had to pause and think long and hard after seeing that mess. It was definitely one of the reasons I got out of “Service” and began looking for other social organizations in my life.

          • @Massive,

            Yep it was pretty amazing to be at a district convention and watch a 16 year old throw his mother “under the bus” as one of my buddies called, in his sharing. They should not be taping that stuff and frankly, I wish she had shut him up the minute he started to dump family secrets. But I guess she was too indoctrinated in AA method to consider his relationship to her as her son was superior to her relationship as a fellow AA. I’d never let family members be juxtaposed like that in any public event.

  10. Check this out; This man is a “RECOVERED ” alcoholic. I repeat, “recovered”. He will die if he does not receive a liver transplant. However, he has been forced to stop using medical prescribed marijuana for pain and other symptoms and attend AA meetings, in order to even be considered a donor recipient. On top of facing the final stages of liver cancer (hallucinations) he has to endure AA meetings and be exposed to all the Germs when he is terminally ill.


  11. They are crazy beyond belief along with sections of our government. Which country are people sane!

    Have them join the tea party. Sorry but they have enthralled politics with medicine and medicine with religious when it comes to AA. This poor guy needs the 99 % to go down there with him to fight for his rights.

  12. Controversial drug treatment center was cited for exploiting clients
    By John HollenhorstApril 9th, 2012 @ 11:19pm

    Ark of Little Cottonwood
    Related Stories
    Nonprofit rehab center’s business practices raise ethical concerns
    SANDY — New allegations have surfaced against The Ark of Little Cottonwood, an addiction treatment center in Sandy. State regulators put their license in jeopardy months ago, saying clients were exploited for personal gain and were embarrassed, humiliated and even frightened as part of their treatment.

    The Ark’s director, Gloria Boberg, and her supporters say the whole controversy is driven by angry ex-clients who are lying.

    Earlier coverage focused on salaries, far above non-profit averages, for director Gloria Boberg and her two sons. Now, KSL has learned that the state formally notified the Ark in January of numerous violations in the way they treat clients. Boberg disputes it all.

    A violation notice issued in January by the Department of Human Services specifically cites Boberg, in at least one instance, for “improper use of clients for manual labor for personal gain to Boberg Family, (moving family members’ residences.)”
    The Ark residential addiction treatment facility is on a four-acre estate in Sandy. Clients pay $13,000 to $15,000 each month, depending on insurance. They’re often put to work maintaining the place.

    “We were made to shovel the manure out of the stalls,” said one former client who wished to remain anonymous. “Yeah, and shovel the snow. And do whatever yard work needed to be done, yeah.”

    Boberg defends the work as a legitimate part of therapy, helping clients learn responsibility. But an anonymous ex-client said he believes there was a selfish motive for Boberg’s family.

    “Free labor, you know. Get your stalls cleaned, they don’t have to pay to have that done or do it themselves,” said the client.

    A violation notice issued in January by the Department of Human Services specifically cites Boberg, in at least one instance, for “improper use of clients for manual labor for personal gain to Boberg Family, (moving family members’ residences.)”

    Boberg said that was a one-time occurrence to help a widowed relative. She said clients volunteered to help and she’s never made a dime off client labor. The document also says, “There are many ethical violations by staff at The Ark.”

    Nonprofit rehab center’s business practices raise ethical concerns
    The founder of The Ark of Little Cottonwood insists she has nothing to hide. She and her sons say everything they’ve done has been reviewed by nonprofit charity experts and is perfectly legal.
    “Clients shamed, embarrassed and verbally abused due to actions of Gloria Boberg,” the violation notice stated.

    It also said that staff members used methods “designed to humiliate or frighten a consumer,” according to information gathered by the state.

    “I wouldn’t be able to share that. But we do have evidence that that was the case,” said Ken Stettler, Director of the Office of Licensing for the Utah Department of Human Services.

    Although she never formally contested the violations, Boberg insists they are all false, stirred up by angry ex-clients. That view is shared by an ex-addict who volunteers at The Ark and loves the program. He told KSL, “There are clients who are upset because Gloria asked them to step up and get their stuff done,” and they could not stick to the program.

    The state documents list other violations though, including improper dispensing of medication and interference with client rights to interact with their families.

    “It’s not a life threatening type of thing,” said Stettler. “But, yeah, they’re serious in how people are treated.”

    State regulators placed The Ark’s license on conditional status in January and ordered a number of reforms they must implement to keep their license, including ethics training for the entire staff. The deadline for compliance is next month.

    John Hollenhorst, Reporter
    John Hollenhorst is a Senior Correspondent for KSL Television. He has won numerous awards over the years, including The National Headliners Award. The Society of Professional Journalists named him Utah’s “Best TV Reporter” 3 years in a row. Full Bio »

    < < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 >>

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  13. Daytona AA member James Maxwell, who had been mandated to AA meetings for repeatedly stabbing a Daytona Beach prostitute in the chest, pleads guilty for raping a 9 year old little girl. He also is charged with the murder of 2 women. The courts mandated this sicko to AA meetings knowing that prostitutes, other vulnerable women, children and teens would also be attending. Volusia County Child Protective Services needs to look at this growing problem. In fact Stewart Marchman and Vince Carter Sanctuary send teenagers to Volusia County AA and NA meetings. Complaints have been filed with the Governor, yet they continue to send them
    Suspect in women’s killings pleads to rape of girl
    By Lyda Longa
    Published: Friday, November 9, 2012.
    DAYTONA BEACH — A suspect in the murders of two women pleaded guilty Friday in a separate crime — the rape of a 9-year-old neighbor.

    James Maxwell, 44, of Port Orange was sentenced to three life terms by Circuit Judge R. Michael Hutcheson for kidnapping and raping the girl. He was sentenced to an additional 15 years for burglary.

    The three life terms are for capital sexual battery, lewd and lascivious molestation of a person younger than 12 and kidnapping.

    Entire Story-

    • I remember when this story first came out . I printed it. Now he is admitting to raping a 9 year old. He’s going to jail right?

      Or is he going to say he has a drinking problem and that ‘s why he raped her?

      OMG this story will be added to my petition to President Obama and State Senators. thanks for posting this anti d.

      • Because of his previous violent history of trying to murder a prostitute by stabbing her several times9 Which is why is was sent to AA meetings once he got out on probation)

        The man got 3 life sentences for raping this little girl. He still has to be tried in the murder of 2 other women.

  14. Pingback: Does AA & NA Bullying Contribute to Violence and Suicides While Breaking National Laws Against Vulnerable Adult Abuse? « illbefreeordie

    • She went for help and she got preyed on by first a leach then a monster; both of which entered her life through 12 step meetings. But of course since she was an addict the coroner was very quick do dismiss her death as her own fault, fatal overdose. Just sad.

  15. I went to a AA meeting last night,
    there was a mentally ill woman there what was interrupting the meeting, the members just made fun of her and led her on, and seemed to think that she is responsible for her actions,
    this here is why I think AA is dangerous to young good looking women and mentally ill, these AA member just take advantage of them. these people are actually taken advantage of and there is really nothing what can be done about it,

    • dumb aa meber
      i know what you mean about nothing can be done.
      because as much as people here post about it including myself
      i have been writeing letters to The Head offices of AA/NA for 13 years, and not even had a reply.
      People have been sending in posts about it for years.
      and people have made videos and all sorts.
      so it seems like a loosing battle.
      However some are makeing some breakthroughs now.
      i think this film the 13th step will make something happen.
      i wish i had done a bit more than i did 12 -13 years ago,
      and other times i was harrased by some in AA.

  16. there is really nothing what can be done about it,

    sure there is something one can do about it. Each person has a voice, has more knowledge of the law. Like anon said, we can all call Child protective services when we hear something has happened with children and even before. If we know children are attending a meeting where a convicted sex offender is we can call CPS.

    ALSO every time someone is sexually harassed you can open your mouth. I can send you the safety pamphlet. You can hand it out.

    We are not powerless. We are powerful because we are now knowledgeable about our rights. We know there are other solutions.

    You are not a victim or are you?

    you can stir it up and raise awareness if you really want to. Me and anti D have done plenty. So have others here. Some here just write and blog. Others just lurk and read….That’s fine . But we need more activists …a team…..

  17. I think that there is new groups being formed what are not the same AA people what started the old AA I think in the future, people will rely on there selves, instead of that Damn group AA

  18. Over the years I have spoken to Intergroup central in NY over a variety of issuses. They RARELY take any stand, even when members and others are at risk. Its hard enough to get local LEO to take action when it comes to AA,NA or any of these other groups. The local intergroup will always defer to the ‘ group concience’ to avoid any commitment in the protection of its members. ‘New Fish’ are easy prey in these rooms- I wish it were otherwise but too often those in NY and your local intergroup wont help you until someone gets hurt. I would like to see more litigation against Central in NY and local Intergroups- like most major corporations, the only time they change is when it costs them money. Hit them where it hurts, these forums must have a slew of attorneys, step up!

      • They need to be sued. Over and over again. By parents of children who have committed suicide, by spouses who were told to get off their medication by a sponsor, By women who have been raped , by women and men who have been 13 stepped, by men and women who have been ripped off for hundreds of thousands and even millions I am told.

        Now that the Karla Brada story is on propublica there will be some lawyers coming forward to help us and them…these people who have been severely harmed.

    • So, for future readers that come by here, let me make it perfectly clear. AA Corporate Management KNOWS people are being killed and preyed on by financial and sexual predators, has even recognized the AA meeting environment is downright dangerous to children, yet AA Corporate Management CHOOSES to do nothing to directly improve the safety of THEIR environment.

      If AA did not exist, these people would not be in danger in AA’s environment, yet they claim ZERO responsibility. It is an environment they created and support, they ARE responsible.

      • spj- you sound really mad today. Do you want to help me in some way. I could use the help with some of the activism work.

        • Not angry, just writing forcefully.

          People need to realize that AA was created by a con man that wanted to make money. His underlying con man personality comes through in many aspects of AA. There have been many, many critics over the years, and calls for responsibility, but like a good con, they simply say they aren’t responsible because of how they are “set-up”. People don’t realize they created their own set up.

          That sure sounds a lot like ” I have self-inflicted behavioral disease and am not responsible”. Well, the AA Corporation has many self-proclaimed by-laws and policies designed like a good con to deny responsibility that are simply unacceptable today. They must either change or be abolished.

          People need to know – like a successful con – THEY MAKE THEIR OWN RULES.

          Anonymity is THEIR CLUBHOUSE RULE. And the world just plays along.

          The lie that it is a bottoms up organization with no corporate control, is THEIR CLAIM – but it isn’t true. They go, “see, here is a diagram of our services structure.” And the world accepts it like fools.

          Wilson created a world in which he had freedom to smoke like a chimney, bang whoever he wanted, treat his supporting wife like total shit, make money without really working, and get unwavering adoration from his followers, and all he needed was for people to buy into his faith-healing con. No wonder he treated anyone that questioned his play with vile contempt. They were going to take away his playthings and show him for the con that he was.

          • spj- I understand completely. Thanks !!! You are right 100%. They have gotten away with so much and so many could have sued AA already if they knew they could. That it’s not a secret organization that is covered by some special by laws.

            Its a non -profit , In NY and it has millions, and it has harmed many, and its all connected like one big oil snake evangelical preacher esque religion, faith healing nutjobs making millions having people work for free all over the place.

  19. Quick site question please. I went looking for the ‘ stinkinthinkin’ link and read a number of contadictory posts- is it up? down active? archived? thanx for the healp!

    • The WHY I LEFT AA STORIES here are good too. Its a long thread. WHen you go to Stinkin thinkin they had a WHY I LEFT A STORIES TOO. I was on there all the time. It was a life saver. Some of the shows I did on blogtalkradio safe recovery about AA literature is very funny and entertaining sometimes and you can actually hear me deprogramming as Im doing the show! Take care.

  20. yes its up but not alot of activity anymore, but its active. There are alot of archives worth reading on many of the threads.

  21. The Camel Club in Las Vegas, NV. High “membership” fees, relentless, irreverent fraternity-like sexual predators in abundance, financial shenanigans galore, club “leaders” renting trucks to steal furniture from their landlord, leaders driving under the influence to meetings and using various tactics such as asset and background checks to “target” high value (READ: wealthy) potential marks, outright chauvinism and open belittling of females to the point where insulted women walk out of meetings. A total cesspool.

    • hi renee, welcome! So how would you say things are fairing in Vegas. If we came out there to put on a Make AA Safer Workshop…how many would attend?

      • Oh my gosh, this is not a news story, but it was talked about here when it happened:

        I was in a packed meeting where it was really hot. People were fanning themselves and when it is this guy’s turn to talk, he says: “This is great. All the fat ladies are fanning themselves.”

        So, this woman stands up, yells that fat lady comments are the sign of a small dick and storms out.

        True story! 🙂

  22. from brillando
    Very nice coverage. Time Magazine is such a prominent publication. That is great that predatory behavior in AA is getting covered there.

  23. I wish i had done more about the times i was harrased
    by some from AA/NA.At the time i mean. I wish i had went to a lawyer.
    but you see the women were blameing me.
    and all made me feel i was at fault i caused it.

    when your own sex don’t want to know you and blame you.
    Also with me being from a different country.
    i do recall speaking about it early on in meetings,
    but a man said back.
    well you dont bother or hit a lass from yorskhire
    you see . but we arent all english.

    for a time i thought it may be a raceist thing,
    but since one of the women the one who told me
    to keep my mouth shut was scottish herself like me.
    then it couldnt have been.

    nearer the end a few women were more talkative to me.
    and some people even took me out invited me along to a meal.
    but it came too late.
    Not all the english women were like those in AA,or all the english men.
    the women at my work are all very friendly and supportive.
    my boss is very much so.and the men at my work are too.

    im off line for a while. im going to a music festival
    in the yorkshire dales with women from my work.
    And not long after that im going up to my dads for a while.

    since i didnt do it for myself i will try to do it in memory of those
    who died and for those still in there and haveing bother in there.
    keep up the good fight i mean i shall do it for them.
    take care everyone.

    • It looks like they are trying to get her away from social media that was messing with her head. They do not seem to be able to control her at home when it comes to that. I am sure they are freaking out that she could of succeeded.

  24. It’s gonna be great. There is the upfront fraud – fake patients, faith healing posing as medicine, etc. But what about the downstream fraud? Expensive vitamins, literature, acupuncture for addiction and on and on…

      • This looks really good and blows the lid off of the AA spawned rehab industry. Of course, AA will claim that this is an “outside issue”. But then, AA also claims that it is “spiritual, not religious” (although anyone with a brain can read the BB and see it is clearly religious, including many courts of law that have said AA is religious) and claims that AA is based on “attraction, not promotion” (although AA members troll hospitals recruiting new members and ask government authorities to force people into AA). But the worst false claim by AA is “it works if you work it” when substantial evidence shows AA doesn’t work very well and is correlated with a high rate of suicide.

        • The truth is ANY quit drinking program works if you work it. AA tries to do it with magic, the Sinclair Method does it with science, SMART does it with a heavy dose of psychology as do others. The Program of AA is religious faith healing snake oil while the others are focused on the issue of addiction. The “Program of Living” from Hazelden is a religion and has nothing directly to do with curbing the excessive consumption of alcohol. They want you to live life THEIR WAY and will go to great lengths to convince you to do it. The theory is that if you live life like they tell you, a positive effect will be that you don’t drink. But it doesn’t work. The only thing that “works” is if the individual makes a decision not to drink and then enforces that decision with their behavior. All the searching and fearless moral inventories and amends and missionary work aren’t going to magically transform someone into a non drinker, but it will transform them into a murderer, a worse binge drinker and dead by their own hand because the incongruities of the religious nonsense drives them there. The light has to shine very brightly on this AA horseshit so people can really see what it is. Wilson didn’t create a wonderful program for not drinking. In many ways, he created a killing machine and it is high time people know this fact. Exposing the financial quackery of rehab is the first phase. Once people start asking exactly what people are getting for the money, they have to ask about success rates and outcomes. They will then learn about the negatives of the 12-Step model and hopefully learn about the other methods for treating addiction and more people will get real help instead of faith healing mumbo jumbo.

          • I couldn’t have said it better!!!

            I can’t wait until the day all the harm that 12-step programs causes is exposed as well.

  25. AA is more harmfull than i thought.
    Not only around predators.but i know this is mainly about that.
    i have had it with them. i tryed to go to HAMS, i go there at times.
    but AA are there. and i just got caught up in
    arguing with one.
    I cant be bothered arguing any more.
    i read an article on hams page that i was interested in ,
    and wanted to talk over with hams people.
    but i end up arguing. i think i shall be okay without a self help group
    my drinking is okay.you know i just wanted to learn
    more about not being powerless.
    and more about not getting drunk keeping to 1 or 2.
    i have had my own dilemas with over drinking thats near killed me too in past,
    even if im not an alcoloic. I left AA and i think they wanted me out some of them
    i cant get !IT!..
    So now im trying something else HAMS, but I cant go there becuase i just
    end up in debates with AA.
    they say live and let live…im not in there meetings, im letting them live there lifes.
    but they are in mine.i shouldnt have responded to them ,i should have ignored it.
    i hope the predators the 13 stp that prey on youngsters are brought to justice
    i dont feel right when i have contact with these people i have to learn to ignore them
    for my own sake.

    • Oh for sure. I cannot personally stand anybody in AA. Even ppl that are associated with it. They have their own language I can usually spot them pretty quickly.

      I know rationally they aren’t all bad. But I don’t trust any of them. That’s just where I’m at with it. And I’m ok with that.

      • And what I mean by anyone associated is, AA treatment counselors. That kind of thing. Not HAMS or SMART or the other alternatives.

        Sorry u ran into some AA’ers at HAMS. That sucks.

        • suntime,spj massive,
          i’m sorry AA has did this to you all.And your family’s.
          i think i’m off to stop all communication with AA.
          i once believe’d that good was in all people,
          but i learnt that there isn’t any good in some people.
          i’m speaking of the world, not just AA.
          I dont hate them anymore. But like you suntime i just cant trust them.
          When i left AA 15 or is it 16 months ago I really didnt want to pick up my guns again, not real guns, i mean I didn’t want a fight, no hassle.with them , but i have fought with them at times on the internet.
          Mind you i cant say i didnt enjoy some of it.But i cant argue with them no more or listen to them.
          i wish them luck and glad for them that it helped, im glad for anyone who is helped and life is saved no matter what way that happens for them.
          But it didn’t do it for me.I cant afford to listen to them or get sucked in by them again.
          So i just cant communicate with them anymore, no matter if they seem nice and good folk,and i know some of them are.But some arent.
          I have been awake all night, thats what happens to me when i speak with them.
          and im not blaming no one or myself for that.
          it just is.im going to my work.

          • Book Written by Founder of HAMS…………………………….

            How to Change Your Drinking

            Author- Kenneth Anderson

            About this book: The HAMS book is a comprehensive guide to alcohol harm reduction strategies for safer drinking, reduced drinking, or quitting altogether. The program outlined in the HAMS book consists of 17 optional elements and a harm reduction toolbox which you can use to build your own individualized alcohol harm reduction program.
            This book also contains detailed information about how alcohol interacts with the body and the brain, as well as a section on harm reduction in a larger societal context. If you want to change your drinking for the better, then this is the book for you.

    • I have found it difficult to stay calm around AA’s and those that wish to defend it. I don’t know what it is. I suspect it has something to do with being betrayed. I trusted that environment and tried to live it and after just a little investigation, it turned out to be mostly lies. I had been lied to and manipulated and psychologically and socially coerced for years and it upset me to my core. This wasn’t about arguing about which peanut butter was better. They hijacked my life in the name of Buchmanism and didn’t have the intelligence or the guts to tell me that is what they were doing. The Program of AA is one big pretend. One big fake. One big dangerous lie. They have created a religious book club with a wall of bogus rules that surround and protect it, but that wall is crumbling and they are standing there in all their exposed glory. Fake, stupid and dangerous.

    • For those really interested in HAMS- Here is a snippet from their website.


      Harm reduction is a set of practical strategies intended to reduce the negative consequences of high risk behaviors such as over drinking or drug use. Harm reduction is a nonjudgmental approach that attempts to meet people “where they are at” with their drinking or drug use. Instead of demanding perfect abstinence, this pragmatic approach is supportive of anyone who wishes to minimize the harm associated with a high risk behavior such as drinking or drug use. Harm reduction accepts that high risk behaviors such as recreational alcohol intoxication are part of our world and works to minimize their harmful effects rather than simply ignore or condemn them. Harm reduction does not attempt to force people to change in ways which they do not choose for themselves. Harm reduction is a compassionate approach whose primary concern is the increased well-being of its constituency. Moreover an overwhelming body of scientific evidence shows that harm reduction works!!

  26. spj- I agree. I just wrote a whole long post and it deleted it. Im so frustrated. Im gonna try again…

    I was eating with my family and then talking with my younger son ( age 18 ) who told me that he really missed me when I went to my weekly meeting and how he is not mad , but that he never understood why I went to meetings when I had not had a drink in over 30 years.

    He hugged me as we walked in the warm hawaiian rain down Lewers and Kalakaua Ave in Waikiki, where I lived much of my early stepper life. He said that I am so much happier and relaxed since leaving AA and that he is so glad it happened earlier then when he was 30. That would be sad , he said. I told him that is why I cry and and get so mad sometimes…I see it….its beyond frustrating…

    I agree with you spj- AA stole my time, my soul my life and I did way too much service.

    My older son (age 23) said that I was so uptight and not relaxed those years I was in AA. I was always WORKING ON MYSELF!. WHY ….WHAT was so fucking wrong with me. Nothing…nothing except that I was in a cult ass AA foolship. He said that one of his friends also age 23 noticed how much happier and relaxed I am since leaving AA.

    I know that work has to be done on the outside of AA, but if we could get organized and all go into one meeting with say 100 people in it, and share what we believe and know now , it would scare the shit out of a few young people they would go to the internet and they wold leave….

    Again, talking to my children, my adult sons today it makes me a bit sad, but mostly really glad I finally saw the light about AA and all its bullsh**t.

  27. “No one wants to be bodily and mentally different from their fellows” but you are and you’re broken beyond human aid and only our sadistic religious book and social club can save your sorry ass.

    Telling people they are different and broken to the core is one of the most sadistic and insidious things the program from the AA Corporation does to people. Once that is ingrained in your brain, it is very, very hard to remove. One thing AA does is take normal thinking patterns and turn them into evidence of the disease. ” Gee, sometimes I like to walk in the rain”, ” man, you really are an alcoholic aren’t you? What step ya on?” Very few in AA are even remotely qualified to do the devious psych work of Buchmanism, but that doesn’t stop a single one of them from using the ammo from the Big Book and unloading it into unsuspecting, trusting and vulnerable people’s brains. Is it any wonder people end up dead or completely psycho around this AA shit? No, it is the predictable outcome. I repeat, giving lay people nonsensical religious conversion tools that they can foist on unsuspecting, trusting and vulnerable people WILL result in adverse consequences. Now add that no one is responsible for any outcome and you have a disaster of epic proportions. Need proof? Do the research. The murders, suicides, increased binge drinking, criminal relapse, fraud and massive churn through AA are right there staring us all in the face. What in the hell is it going to take to get this nonsensical blood sucking leech out of our society?

    • sbj,

      “Gee, sometimes I like to walk in the rain”, ” man, you really are an alcoholic aren’t you? ”

      Is there anything one can do or say that does not further label them. I never socialized much with the fellowship. However, one time I went on a hiking trip with them. I pulled out of my purse a pack of trident gum squares and I offered gum to a lady (long time member). She said; “may I have two because Im an alcoholic and one is never enough.” At this point, Im thinking; I must be really broken because I actually like to chew three sometimes. Pretty trivial is some ways but very scary when you really think about it.

      • yep, but first, it is SPJ , not SBJ …

        The little things do add up, if you are consistently reminded of some imaginary brokenness using thoughts and behaviors that are within the range of normalcy, you will become convinced of your brokenness eventually. Sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly but it will happen if you don’t create defenses against it. The big shame is everyone who walks through the door gets painted with the same broad brush. The housewife that drinks too much all alone gets lumped in with the truly mentally ill and they all read from the same hymnal. The really sick person gets no real help and the housewife becomes convinced she is eternally broken and that will be reinforced over and over again. The only hope is to get the hell out and find out what the real issues are that makes you want to drink to excess. The answer is NOT in AA.

      • “Is there anything one can do or say that does not further label them.”

        No. Life in AA is all about labels and categories. They serve as constant reminders that one is (and always will be) diseased, defective, and dependent on the cult for life.
        “Dry drunk”, “normies”, “one of us” or “not one of us”, “terminally unique”, “Stick with the winners”, (of course, that implies that some are losers).
        Then there is the ever popular “we”, as in “we tend to be this” or “we tend to be that”.
        It never ends. The only hope is to surrender to the cult, and abandon all hope for anything resembling a “normal” life.

        • Yeah, but its all for your own good you stupid alcoholic that wouldn’t be here if you were all there.

          I have becoming increasingly worried that I have AA bullshit too far embedded in my brain. Last night, I was at the unfortunate vantage point of seeing how the dissonance may never end and there is only one way to relieve the misery permanently. I can now see directly why people that have been heavily indoctrinated into AA end up killing themselves. Seeing reality, yet thinking in AA magical terms, and not wanting to, is very distressing.

          • spj, I will never forget how miserable I was when I finally began to see AA for what it is. I have many regrets, but walking away from those rooms is not among them. I might very well have become one of those AA suicides if I had forced myself to stay.

        • rick- this is the brainwashing that happens after sitting in meetings listening to Chapter 5 which is filled with lies, and nonsense. But It is also filled with many dangerous core belief systems that must be dealt with when one leaves AA.

          spj- I too see how people kill themselves when they cant take AA anymore. Its a sad situation. It needs to stop!

          • I can see an entire industry built on just helping people get AA junk beliefs out of their systems. If the recovery industry is $14 billion, give or take a few, the AA deprogramming business could easily be a couple billion.

          • Rick,

            I was also miserable and annoyed most of the time while attending AA meetings. It got worse each time I would return over the years. I felt suicidal before I walked away for good 3 yrs ago. I had a serious talk with my higher power and said; “if their right and thats where i belong than Id rather check out. The hopeless feeling was overwhelming. I think I went to two meetings after that and I was confident that i was DONE. Let freedom ring.

            Over the years on the blogs, I have heard others say they do miss the fellowship. I never did for one little bitty moment. I could not relate.

            Oh, and the labeling each other alkies; for every thing they say or do is beyond ridiculous. Congratulations for being one of lucky ones to realize your a normie.

            • That is so sad and probably very, very common in AA. Holy shit people, it’s only some booze and absolutely NOTHING to kill yourself over. Nothing, absolutely nothing to die over !

              The answer there is get real help and get the hell out of the depression-inducing and mind-fucking world of the cult of Bill Wilson.

  28. SPJ,

    I do apologize. 🙁 I had no clue I did that.

    I noticed a lot of wives who had lost spouses and started to drink. They came to AA thinking they might be able to determine if they had a problem. Wrong!!!! “You didnt get there by accident” Couldn’t possibly be temporary. Before long they were brainwashed into believing that they were just an alcoholic waiting to happen. Start looking for the similarities (however few they are) and not the differences.

  29. Here’s a story of a “drug and alcohol counselor” who was arrested for sexually assaulting an unconscious patient. It seems he was caught on some kind of recording device. Unfortunately, it doesn’t say whether or not he was offering “step-based” counseling…

    A drug and alcohol counselor was arrested Thursday on charges of sexually assaulting an unconscious patient.
    Michael B. York, 49, of the 400 block of Accrusia Avenue in Clarksville, Ind., was charged with first-degree sexual assault.
    He has an active license as a clinical addiction counselor in Indiana, according to the Indiana Professional Licensing Agency, but the Kentucky alcohol and drug counselor license for a Michael Brent York expired in 2005, according to Kentucky’s Public Protection Cabinet. York was arrested at a Breckenridge Lane office.
    The male victim captured York sexually assaulting him on an “audio/video recording device,” according to York’s arrest citation.
    The victim was unconscious during medical treatment, according to the citation.


    • I hope the show goes well. I completely get what he’s saying about how that day in and day out humiliation wears a person down. Steppers constantly talk to each other like shit and will never apologize or “promptly” admit they’re wrong about anything. I think it also says a lot about why so many of them are unemployable. The kind of simple courtesy and respect that is expected in most workplaces means nothing in those rooms.

      • I knew a woman in AA who became sick with a horrible illness – and an oldtimer told her God gave her the illness to humble her!! And she kept coming!! wow!

  30. massive,
    thank you for makein the film i am so tired tonight.
    After work i went for a drink with summer.
    I had 2.” drinks.
    Summer is my lesbain grandaughter.
    And manger of a niteculb where i live.

    I love her .

    Massive i wrote a SONG.
    many year ago 2007….
    it was about AA i called it “I walked out the door !”
    just wish i could sing and play it as good as you do.

    • sally-I hope one day to visit Scotland! I hear its very beautiful countryside!
      Maybe you could record your song. Put it up on youtube ? Or got someone else to sing it for you.
      just an idea.

      • massive,
        someone else would ave to sing and play it. I’m going to ask Loz.
        He and his wife are friends of mine.
        He can sing and play guitar..He’s a rock n roll fan..My songs
        not rock n roll but he could do it.

        however i will say the only person who has heard it, was my sandy, my second born daughter, she said it was good,it brought her to tears..
        She had came to live with me after feeling domestic violence..
        (Shes ok now ).
        It reminded her of that..
        I’m going to the USA, after my Dad’s numbers Shouted.

        I have had 2 days off work, and caught up on my sleep.
        Once a month, i work weekends. They threw me in at the Deep end, and i did my first overtime week when i started.

  31. I used to be a alono member, I could see all the sexual harassment what was at the club, members what like the young women what would come into the club and if they looked like they would put out sex with the alono men then they would be accepted members, if you were a lesbian or a homosexual man you were pushed out of the club and talked about like you were a trash,

    there is a new woman what comes to the AA club what is gay and she says that she is being stalked by one of the retarded members there,
    I knew a woman what got pregnant by one of the members at AA
    I seen women what put out go a long ways with the AA clubs, they get good paying jobs and so on, if the AA clubs do not like you they will slander you and vandalize your car,

    • They are also,rapeing people, and manipulating vunrable people
      for sex.
      Teenagers,and others.I heard a woman share in NA that a sober AA man raped her.
      She was in her late 40’s and had severe mental health issues.
      She left NA right after she shared. And i heard she was doing okay with her church.

      • I just read the entire story on your site.

        It made me want to cry and VOMIT!

        Just think; these are the kinds of sick, sick people one can easily end up sitting next to at these crazy, useless meetings!

        “For nearly three months John Michael Siscoe confined and tortured his lover’s husband in a Toronto apartment. John Siscoe met him at an AA meeting.

        When the man was not kept in a tiny bloodstained closet, Siscoe beat him with broomsticks and hammers, poured lighter fluid all over his body and set it alight, cut him with razor blades, stuck him with pins, viciously sexually assaulted him and threatened to kill both him and his parents. Often the man’s wife, then pregnant with Siscoe’s child, watched.”


        And all that steppers would say to this is: “Well, you…duh..ah…you kin meet…bah…bah..bah…BADD people EVERYWHERE! Do ya steps and Scooby-dooby-doooooooooooooo or DIE!!!!”

        More people have to find out how very dangerous this mess is. The American people will be VERY angry when they find out that our courts are sending people to meetings for DUI that are also attended by known, violently mentally ill, sick, sick people such as this.

        – See more at: http://nadaytona.org/2013/12/06/aa-member-john-michael-siscoe-declared-a-dangerous-offender-and-sentenced-in-the-worst-case-of-torture-in-canada/#sthash.cCxaoJOP.dpuf

        • Hi illbefree, this man was mentally sick since he was a toddler. He could not even make through kindergarten because of aggression against other children. His adoptive parents had to give him up at the age of 8 years old!

          We do know he was an AA member, but we do not know how long he was, how many other victims he had etc, because the media is looking the other way.

          Even AA has stated in the early days that there no one to sick to be a member, and damn it they are so far sticking to that.

  32. Yes, his story is horrific. He obviously is the victim of nightmarish abuse. He never belonged in any meetings with people who had no idea of his history. How many more devastatingly and violently mentally ill people are going to AA and NA meetings…awaiting victims?

    The average person is just not making the connection with 12 step meetings and potentially encountering the most violent criminals one could ever meet. It’s not fair. I would have NEVER stepped foot in those meetings had I realized what I was doing.

    I brought my precious, grown niece to one of those damned meetings for goodness sake!

    I’m very angry about this…and if the zombies had any sense left after indoctrination…they’d be angry too.

  33. I’m glad I came across this site. I could be here for hours explaning my horror story in AA. Been in and out of those crazy rooms for over 20 years. Been to rehab and jails because of my alcohol and drug use. From April 11 2011 to June 16 2013 was the longest I ever went without a drink or drug in AA. Had a few sponsors. Even had a few sponsees. Did all the stuff they had advised. I am married to a wonderful wife for 20 years have 3 beautiful children. That nut house almost broke my family up. Those AA creeps have a answer for everything. My wife and children where happy at first when I went to meetings. My family saw me change over time. The Kult took my soul! I just wanted to be around AA all the time. Parties,dances the works. Funny thing. A majority of those people don’t have wives our husbands and their children don’t want to talk to them. Back to the crazy advise. “If you don’t have AA you wouldn’t have your family”, “Normies don’t understand us”, “Get out of yourself,do service work”. That crap advice is universal in AA. This is where it get’s ugly. If your good looking and smart your really doomed in AA. You think PREDATORS are only creepy old men? HUH! I was constantly hit on by woman. I learned to deal with it at first. Some of these woman are plain nasty. The oldtimers would say “Watch out for those new commers,they are very sick”. Whatever! A majority of the people in AA are sick. Back to the female predator. So I had a year and a half sober and this woman joins the kult. She makes a bee line towards me. She says “My sponser is out of town,I’m scared I’m going to drink. Can I call you?” My dumb ass says “Sure”. I really thought it was innocent. I do notice a lot of these AA’s have no boundries. So I start getting the phone calls from this lady more and more. I quote the big book a lot. Buy the way she is married too. I really thought I was safe. The lady came from a wealthy family. She seemed well educated. Little did I know. One thing I do remember. This old timer saw me talking to the lady after the meeting. He says ” Never be alone with an AA lady newcommer”. I found out the hard way. I went and had coffee with this lady. She complemented me and was very nice. When I hung out with her it was in public. Until I made the mistake of being alone with her. She jumped my bones! She really knew what to say. She talked my panties off so to speak. She told me “God wants us to be together because we are sober”. She wanted me to divorce my wife. She wanted to run off together. Please don’t judge me. I love my wife very much. I fell for it! I got 13 stepped by this lady. The affair ended horribly of course. This lady turned out to be a real monster. She was a liar,master munipulater. I found out later from another oldtimer lady. She says “Oh that lady that messed with you. She has been in and out of AA for a while. She does this to men and woman all the time”. Anyway. Of course the people in AA took sides. I was devistated! What did I do? I drank and used drugs! My sponsor gave me horrible advise. He told me to go and find another girl. A young one at that. I did not agree. Anyway. I kept going to meetings. After I used the AA’s starting treating me different. Stopped talking to me . Some of these AA’s where rude to me. I slowly stopped going to meetings. I finally saw who my real friends where. There is so much more I want to say. I only drank once since June 16. I really don’t need to get drunk or high. I changed my phone number. I don’t go to meetings! I told my wife if anyone comes to our door from AA those are my true friends. My sponsor nor any other people I knew for years came to see how I was doing. Only one guy! He is my very good buddy. He wants to get out of AA too. I am still married (happily). I have never felt better in my life since I stopped that horrible kult!

  34. night owl- omg !!! I am so sorry. You can really see this happening in rich meetings in los angeles. You are so right…AA is a toxic dangerous nut house and I am glad you got out and are doing okay.

    This is a story that I do think needs to be told at a public level..men are not the only sexual 13 steppers in AA…If you wanna speak to me my contact is makeaasafer@gmail.com.

    Again they are very sick people filled with moronic “sayings” and cult beliefs. That is one thing I noticed in the end too…more then 50 % of them are single, not married and even with many years their kids don’t talk to them. WHY?
    Have you investigated other free support like Smart Recovery, SOS, Moderation.org or any goo books to combat the AA BS?
    And again…Im glad you found my site. I am making a Documentary to expose just this sort of stuff and worse.

    • Thank you for the quick response. It has been 3 months since my last meeting. I still talk to my good friend that still attends meetings. That lady has moved on to other victims. I’m fine. I feel better. Yes I feel betrayed by what happened to me. The worst thing that hurt me was the way this so called AA family didn’t even care how I was doing or if I was even still alive. The ones that really are confused are the real family members and loved ones of the people that attend AA. The best advice that is given to them is to attend al anon. My wife hated it! That’s a different story. Good luck with the movie. I can’t wait to see it. I will keep in touch. To all those people that felt betrayed by AA there are people who really care about you that aren’t in AA. I really felt like I had to dumb myself down for AA. I forgot to mention I was hit on by men too. Again a totally different story. One of my favorite words of advice from those creeps was “You can do whatever you want as long as you stay sober”.

      • nite owl,
        i have lost my f key on my key board and useing a pen nib to press it. Im not too hot at spelling either and no spell check, so bear with me.

        im sorry this happened to you. But gald you got out and are okay, thanks for your post.
        i was also hit on by a man who was in and out AA for 17 yrs. I was in and out too.
        i didnt go to AA to meet a man. and i never had any kind of sexual thing with anyone in there.

        there were some old timers with, long term sober who hit on me, and one who was in and out many years.
        i cant say i had any problems with any new commers like that.

        this man also verbaly abused me at times screamed and shouted, and threatned my life….
        i went to the police in the end…

        no one in AA gave a damn about what i was going through ,and blamed me ,and molly coddled him…
        No one who attends AA cared about me or came to my door.
        i have no mates in AA.

        you can do whatever you want as long as you stay sober,yes i know what you mean,and a lot o people in AA do just that…
        they do what they want and stay sober.while chaseing others away because o what they are doing!

  35. I call this news people! Found this on the internet! AntiDenial

    And this, OMG, a new companion to the Big Book??? Acknowledging that AA isn’t the only answer???

    Hazelden Offers Companion to the “Big Book” – New guide attempts a modest AA update.

    The founders of AA published their book, Alcoholics Anonymous (The Big Book) back in 1939. The world has changed a great deal since then, so it’s not surprising that there have been periodic calls for an update. Barring an official revision, which is unlikely, Hazelden, the Minnesota treatment organization, has published an updated companion volume to the Big Book. (Narcotics Anonymous published their version of the basic text in 1962). “The core principles and practices offered in these basic texts hold strong today,” says Hazelden, “but addiction science and societal norms have changed dramatically since these books were first published decades ago.”

    “Perhaps the genuine sea change lies in this passage, which can be contrasted with the faith and certainty with which the Big Book proclaims that AA will work for all but the most stubbornly self-centered. Even with the myriad of choices of AA groups now available, Hazelden acknowledges that “a group based on the Twelve Steps doesn’t work for all of us. Some of us have found help in recovery groups that offer alternatives to the Twelve Steps, such as SMART Recovery, Women for Sobriety, and Secular Organizations for Sobriety.” This is a change of heart, given that groups like SMART Recovery don’t necessarily buy the idea of total abstinence, and often structure recovery as an exercise in controlled drinking. Hazelden also suggests that many of “us” have found the necessary ongoing support for recovery at churches, mental health centers, and nonreligious peer support groups.”

    • Hazelden is a large business, run by business people. It is the job of those business people to remain relevant and grow the business. Hazelden is not interested in continuing to promote a cult religion of faith healing nonsense if they lose money over it, they are in it for the bucks and will change with the times. All the long time AA stalwarts in their organization are retiring or dying. The AA zealots are toothless in the face of this set of changes, but I am sure they put up a fight. The tide is turning quickly now. AA is done.

      • They are huge, and this will have a big impact. I cant help but think all the blogs, books, Massive on Katie Couric, newspaper articles, bench ads has really made a difference.

        AA IS NOT THE ONLY WAY!!!!

  36. “the Big Book proclaims that AA will work for all but the most stubbornly self-centered.”
    there world service comitte say’s if it dont work, its because you weren’t an alcoholic or /and weren’t totally selfish to begin with.

  37. the big book is such of piece of crap. I’m embarrassed I once thought it was so great and I studied it all the time when I was new. Oh well…it helps me make the film and be able to fight them.

    • this is still the good fight.
      it has always been the good fight.

      my years in AA/NA …it was not recovering that i was fighting against
      i wanted badly to recover from addictions.

      at one time i did…im not so bothered anymore.too old and worn out to care too much ..

      i was fighting against giveing my life and will into the hands
      of other people in AA. against giveing up my freedom..
      against being brainwashed into a cult. against being controlled by others, against lots of things to do with it.
      and some in it. against continuing to be abused by some.

      and then i escape and then i find there is even more bad things happening in AA
      than i ever knew about…and the majority who go get hurt some more than others…

      AA has taken lifes, members have commited murder on other members. sponsees have killed there sponsers,and sponsors have killed there sponsees…child molestors have sponsered teenagers. and one teenager was murdered by his child molesting sponsor.
      rape and child molesting…financial abuse…abuse’s of power…

      this is the good fight.


  38. i just listened to santans live black magic woman.
    and that helped me feel young again…i wish i could rock the way i used to
    but i’m too old and knackered now to do all that jumping around,
    i wish i could leap out o bed at sunrise and go do an 8 hr shift then
    dance till dawn
    but them days are well over. im 55 and feel 100. tonight.LOL

    i have been over doing work.no im really not a work o holic
    just took on extra to help my mates out. just been up there to clean all the guinea
    pig cages they have 10.i hope they aint eating them.
    its a long walk there and back. shifted all my bedroom stuff and cleaned my home too. tomorrow im doing nothing at all.then back to work monday.

    no im sorry to say my rock and roll days are over.i can no longer
    leap around like mick jagger.
    aw well never mind i can still enjoy listening to it.
    music i mean.

    i have got to take 2 pain killers tonight, backs knackered.
    just haveing one o them days. A rainy day.
    its so good to know theres no silly git here going to tell me
    i cant take them. The pain killers. I mean.
    one time i took pain killers and a sponsor told me because i had done that then i wasnt ready for it ,so i left lol..i went back after some months out.
    i was in and out all the time.

    cant even be bothered to work out why any more.because im sure i really wanted to try my best to recover that time in. but no it seems i wasnt ready for it..
    well now i will never be ready for it.

    i shall get my cuppa two zyadol listen to some doors i think tonight.
    i love the doors, and mayby john martyn too.

    im going to join some groups for a social outlet not sure what yet maby yoga
    or art classes something like that.im waiting till mick and bella get back from
    philopeans before i look into it ,i have to be there for there cat and guinea pigs.

    good night to all at leaveing AA…thankyou massive for keeping up the good fight.
    i think AA it takes a lot from people in lots of ways…they take a whole lot of something for a handfull of nothing.

  39. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkcmB8a1cn8

    i was watching this video and thought about what john martyn said.
    he may be hard to understand for some ,being
    at this point in his life, his speach slurred, and scottish accent.

    its about emotions ,yeh i get what he said.

    AA they just cant handle others emotions
    i still find it hard myself at times too handle others emotions.
    and still supress mine. thanks AA you did a good job on me.!

    i am starting to say when im in physical pain
    and have started to share some of my life problems with others.
    things AA stopped me from doing.show no emotion keep mouth shut about any problems other than booze.

    dont moan and groan,dont cry,dont get angry,what that you say you are in great physical pain ..get off your pity pot!be gratefull for pain love your pain.

    it isnt easy is it for us who left so hard to adjust.
    but im still glad i left. and have no wish to return again.

    i shall stop posting now for a while
    take care everyone.

  40. Massive- This just happened in Ohio! Check it out-

    AA Member Strangles His Wife Months After Being Mandated To AA Meetings For Felony Domestic Violence

    Prosecutors: East Cleveland Woman, 59, strangled by estranged husband
    By Adam Ferrise, Northeast Ohio Media Group
    on January 23, 2014
    EAST CLEVELAND, Ohio— Authorities said on Thursday that a 59-year-old woman was strangled inside her apartment and prosecutors have charged her estranged husband in connection with her death.

    Kenneth Booker, 54, was charged Thursday with aggravated murder in East Cleveland Municipal Court. Judge William L. Dawson set bond at $1 million and his case was bound over to a Cuyahoga County grand jury to decide how the case will proceed.

    Prosecutors on Thursday said Booker is accused of strangling to death Carolyn Blair, 59, of East Cleveland inside her apartment. The Cuyahoga County Medical Examiner has not yet officially ruled on the death.

    – See more at: http://nadaytona.org/2014/01/23/aa-member-strangles-his-wife-months-after-being-mandated-to-aa-meetings-for-felony-domestic-violence/#sthash.aU9CgGNN.dpuf

  41. I ran into this Stanton Peele article posted on reason.com (a libertarian political news/editorial/discussion website. In a nutshell, libertarians tend to be socially liberal and fiscally conservative individualists). Regardless of one’s political beliefs, I find it very encouraging that AA is being openly discussed on political policy forums. Especially encouraging are the comments on the article where the vast majority of folks aren’t buying into AA’s rigid dogma!

    • Thank you for posting that. Stanton really nailed it with this one. I believe that a lot of the arrogance that one finds among AA members stems directly from their twisted definition of “sobriety”. Such a simple word really, but it’s the equivalent of salvation according to AA.

  42. hello there! , Nice producing so much! ratio many of us connect much more roughly the write-up for Google? My spouse and i call for a specialized in this residence in order to solve my dilemma. Might be that is certainly an individual! Having a look in front to peer a person.

  43. AA expands its recruitment efforts –
    “Mass. General will hire five “recovery coaches” — former substance abusers who are certified by the state — to work at the hospital and in the three community health centers. Coaches will accompany people needing longer-term care to Alcoholics Anonymous meetings and encourage them to stick to treatment plans.”

    • They have begun hiring “recovery advisors” in psychiatric hospitals and residential treatment centers here in Denmark too. No formal training, no certification-just prior experience as a patient/addict is sufficient. Its a big hit right now for the AA´ers that cant be bothered with books or exams. But hey, they are cheap in wages and it IS such a lovely idea! Christ!

      • Kind of blows ‘lest problems of money, property or prestige’ out of the water! Paid sponsors, genius idea.

        As I said to my fully indoctrinated AA friend today, my horse hasn’t had an alcoholic drink for 15 years, doesn’t qualify her to be a programme assistant in a rehab! Doesn’t infer any wisdom on her either (she is quite good at farting when she’s pissed off, this would be quite handy in an AA meeting!).

        In all seriousness, laying aside the massive room for abuse of this system, it’s totally in contradiction of AA’s stated traditions. They should not be aligning themselves with anything, let alone getting paid for it. Scary stuff.


        • People do this all the time. I have a friend from NA who moved to LA. Most of her friends work as babysitters for rich kids with party problems. Paid sponsorship.

  44. http://www.thefix.com/content/drug-treatment-court-mother-heroin-addict2088

    “The Failure of Catch and Release Drug Treatment Court ”

    The link above is a great article on “The Fix” written by the parent of a young man sentenced to drug court, and how this has set him up for failure time and again. It goes on to discuss how drug courts are creating over-dose situations by incarcerating heroin addicts for 10 days then sending them out on the streets with far less tolerance than they had before their short stint in jail. This proves to be a recipe for death.

    This article also hits on a pet peeve about half-way houses that I’ve always had; they tend to be built in the middle of drug infested neighborhoods, and have an open door policy. You walk outside with a drug dealer on every corner and you are on your own. I know of a recently built half-way house which is situated in exactly such an area.

    One quote from the article:
    “Even as participants overdose, drug courts, as part of their “evidence based treatment,” throw drug users back on the street until they prove to have “failed” outpatient treatment—treatment which often includes nothing more than weekly urinalysis and mandatory 12-step meetings. All drug treatment court participants should receive a complete multi-disciplinary evaluation by trained and licensed addiction professionals to determine appropriate placement along the continuum of care. Previous treatment records should be consulted as well.”

    Well worth reading.

  45. I agree. I have been going to AA meetings for years and i have never felt accepted there at all. i just can never get the slang of that cult, adult men act like they have never seen a nude woman, woman what remind me of women what work the streets, mentally ill people what have no where to go, women what are taken advantage of by big book gicks what are really sex addicts looking for women to have sex with, reading the messages on this web site has helped me so much, i do believe that i am a addict and i do stay clean and sober, i do not give them AA creeps any cridit for this, AA to me is just what the internet says about it, it is just a dangerous place to go to. the cult kind of works as they protend to be your friend and they will work on your weeknesses, there is always some woman being taken for a fool and then she goes back to drinking. i have heard rumors about that AA has a goon squad that will threaten people what are not obidiant to the cult i do not know if that is true or not, but i have known people what have been attact by members i did not see any but i have heard of it,

        • Yes, could have possibly been preventable. The first link I posted notes:
          “Growing Pains actor Jeremy Miller is one of those from the entertainment industry who had succumbed to alcoholism until he found out about a novel addiction treatment technology from BioCorRx, Inc. (OTCQB: BICX).

          The treatment, called the Start Fresh Program, includes the use of a biodegradable Naltrexone implant product that is embedded under the fatty layer of the alcoholic’s abdominal skin. The implant slowly releases Naltrexone into the patient’s bloodstream for several months to curb his or her physical cravings for alcohol.

          Naltrexone is also an effective opioid antagonist that can be used on patients addicted to heroin and prescription drugs.

          The Naltrexone implant is administered by independent physicians under the first tier of the nationally recognised Start Fresh Program. The program’s second tier involves life coaching to ensure that addicts are on the right path to recovery. Miller, who has been sober for over two years according to a report on InTouch Weekly, now serves as patient advocate for the program at a clinic in than California.

          Along with acomprosate, naltrexone was noted as a highly effective drug against alcoholism that was underprescribed by physicians.”

    • Yeah, RIP Robin Williams.

      I really do believe that the program kills people one way or another. The evidence is there and it is substantial. Why won’t researchers investigate the causal link between AA Oxford Group indoctrination and murders and suicides? How many more people have to die before society gets it?

      Sad and very frustrated right now…..

      • spj- ILLBEFREE called me to tell me. I was screaming out loud !!! NO oh no…….so sad. He was brainwashed and was never told about other options I am sure. :((((((((

        May he be free …Im so mad. Im going to take some new actions to get the word out.

    • Probably a great racket to get into. Not only do you collect rent from overcrowded units, you get a 2 hatter counselor to provide “services” and bill insurance companies for every AA meeting and “sponsor chat”. 100 people at $300+ per week of “services” adds up quick. The dude was probably rolling in the dough – and hiding it.

      I wonder if the major rehab providers charge insurance companies to bus people to and from AA meetings? If so, that’s a big money maker right there.

    • spj, I read that article, I was very pleased to see it. Anytime I see an article that just lays out why AA should not be the only treatment available to people, or even the primary treatment; I know that there is a big shift underway. Such a short time ago no talk of alternatives was allowed.

  46. Yeah, cool stuff. Eventually, society is going to have one of those “what the hell were we thinking” around letting 12 Step nonsense get as entrenched as it is, given how worthless it is.

  47. Great blog! Do you have any tips and hints for aspiring writers?
    I’m hoping to start my own site soon but I’m a little lost on everything.
    Would you propose starting with a free platform like WordPress or go for a paid option? There are so many options out there that I’m completely confused
    .. Any recommendations? Thanks!

  48. Psychology today has done an article entitled ‘ Alcoholics Anonymous, Depression, and Suicide. Do 12 step programs lead to clinical depression and suicide?’ It start off with,

    ‘In light of the recent Robin Williams tragedy I think it is high time that we asked the question of whether or not 12 step programs can induce depression and suicidality..’

    Damn straight it is time to look at it.


    • Hi Ms. Libraian,
      This link provides ALL KINDS of information on AA’s involvement with the courts. My pardons if it’s already been posted somewhere.
      One thing for sure, an attempt to use the program as mitigating circumstances for individuals defense cases is evident.
      Here’s one that is particularly nauseating (read the decision part of it):


      I used the sites search engine. There is a boat load of whale doo invloving AA………………….

        • Not necessarily – I read through a few of them and there are some cases where defendants tried to use xa for mititigating their cases once they were eventually charged.
          My intent was to post this site as a resource to show how entrenched AA is in the judicial system.
          There are cases involving child custody issues, employment issues, criminals trying to use privelege communications (a la 5th step with other members) about their crimes, etc.
          It has a host of information……..

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