Safety Tools and Literature for Sexual and Financial Predators in AA and NA

Pamphlets – Front Side and Back Side


Postcards – Is 12 Step Not Working for You? A List of Alternatives: Front Side and Back Side

New Educational Postcards


Safety Statement to Read

Always…if a crime is committed, don’t ask your sponsor…go to the police.

FIle a report.

Keep written accounts and records.

AA and money scams….sue them in court.

Stand up, speak out and do NOT BE AN AA DOORMAT!

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149 thoughts on “Safety Tools and Literature for Sexual and Financial Predators in AA and NA

  1. Finacial Preditors like to ask the newcomer “who paid for this treatment center your in” ? Under the cover thats its helping you feel guilty about drinking and helping you. Your only as sick as your secrets, Its all about honesty.

  2. Don’t go to an AA Clubhouse in a nice car! That is a welcome mat for financial preditors. I always noticed that the people at the AA clubs were especially interested in what kind of car people drove, if they owned a house, even if they also attended some of the meetings in more upper class locations. Newcomers and their significant others would definitely be scoped out when they entered the door for signs of financial security and whether they would make good marks.

    • my goodness
      your post -many years ago maby 11-
      i recall sat waiting on meeting starting-i had a walkman on (thats a radio not sure what they call walkman in USA)
      so people must have thought i couldnt hear them.
      the tape i had in finished but i didnt remove my walkman-
      they were talking i heard one man say to another-
      i wont give his right name here i use a fake
      he said “one more push and we will have henry out the door again-
      then you can get his house off him cheap”
      the man henry i liked him right from start of my going to AA-
      he and i went around same time and like me he struggled
      in and out think he was out last time i was in.
      he had been through a breakdown put in hosptial not so long before i heard this comment. i went visit him took him a card.
      i thought at time what they doing why they say that.
      henry been through enough what they mean one more push”
      i didnt tell henry about it i only ever told one person -on one relapse i went for drug counselling non 12 step- i told my counsellor at the time.
      henry was rich when he first went AA big buisness man flew all over world.
      had big house.
      he been in and out 12 yr same as me.
      last time i heard him share i recall him saying
      “when i came here i had money a lovely girlfriend my own buisness and weighed a lot more- now i have nothing left and i am underweight be prepared to loose weight here.”
      they do dont they they push people back out-
      i wonder why they push me-am always skint-
      mayby because i didnt open my legs for them (sorry about the explicits)
      mayby they wanted me to be so vunrable i do anything EH!
      I was a younge looking for a 42 yr old when i first went there
      and though they made me think i was ugly -i wasnt.
      dont think looks and age bothers them that much though anyway
      well am not 42 anymore and stress has taken its toll so maby they not
      push me for that anymore and go after the younger pretty ones now-
      or maby it was cause i complained openly about the predators and abuse in meetings
      also sent letters to area (no reply)
      not sure why-but i definetly felt like i was being pushed out
      dont matter anyway they cant push me no more.

      • Not so uncommon what you heard about Henry and some AA predator going after his house. We had a guy who sponsered men at a clubhouse in Florida and then tried to convince them to sell their homes to him cheap since they, “Didn’t need the stress of home ownership.” We booted his ass, but he hurt some people before the club house staff got wind of his scam.

        • I went to AA for 1 year and was taken for a ride by 2 financial predators.the 2 of them were “self taught” as they put it painters and decorators and got me to help them for NO pay.they told me it was keeping me from drinking and was better than sitting in the house.I soon saw through them and will never go back to AA.It has some of the sickest people on the planet..

          • jim- hi . Welcome! Yea AA and NA is filled with financial predators.
            There is a guy in Hollywood AA who is sober over 35 years who uses his time to intimidate the AA guys and owes them in excess of $250,000 . He has told one of them to go write about it when he asked for his money back.
            He should be sued! Sorry to hear what happened to you.

  3. yea its best to go in sweats and a t shirt.
    Oh yea take off jewelry as well.
    But in LA you’ll most likely run into an actor that’s studying for his next role on shows like “oz” on HBO.

    BTW don’t go to coffee with these guys. and grandma better find a nice meeting in Manhattan Beach at noon to attend so not to get jumped by scary Larry or pedophile Pete!

  4. JRH I pulled this off the site. Thanks.

    KAM- I guess when you called and ANti d called and I called and the woman who was raped called and when Keeper called when her son was killed they forgot what was written here.

    The Traditions have these words to say on Groups in AA.
    Tradition 3 (Long Form). Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism. Hence we may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought A.A. membership ever depend upon money or conformity. Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A. group, provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation.

    My my how deep AA has dug itself in lies. So if an AA in Betty Ford is preaching from the from the BB and then that person is paying Betty Ford Clinic $24,000 a month…I guess…. hmmm I’m lost. Now I feel like a stock broker at Goldman Sachs in Sept of 2008. Wait , what is a derivative? ” Oh yea, we made that shit up”.

  5. I was not aware of financial predators until I read about it on st. The oldtimer I know, when asked about the worst bits of AA, said, without drawing breath, that he had ‘lent’ a lot of money over his 19 years, and was fairly bitter about it. I know for a fact that he paid £800 to set one hardcore member in a different country. Said hardcore member is now back in AA.

    • I have lent money to many people in n.a./a.a. and not once have I ever gotten it paid back. These are the same people that have all that spirituality that the program suggest we acheive. The reason I know that they have reached this pinnacle of serenity is because they would share all this stuff, then hit you up for 20 bucks then suddenly come down with a serious case of amnesia. It would amaze me, so I begin to view any potential loans as gifts, that way I could shorten my resentment list! LOL . Seriously, it really use to aggregate me. That has become a major benefit of no longer attending, I have eliminated a lot of low-lifes out of my life.

        • frank- exactly. There are a few who really take advantage of it . They make others feel guilty and use program lingo to manipulate.
          People should start suing in small claims court and if its more go to higher court.

      • I knew an “Oldtimer” that would hit sponcees up for money and she even tried to get a woman to put her on her health insurance (don’t know exactly how) one time.

      • Frank,
        Next time someone asks to borrow money tell them OHHHHHHHH sorry I cannot, I’m sponsoring an Irish family through rehab….for the second time around =). Or, I cannot, I’m purchasing a subscription to “The Grape Vine” for each of my family members for Christmas. ORRRRRRRRR I just purchased 50 Big Books that I need help delivering to the pediatric unit.
        Frank, That is the only way to look at lending money, as a gift. I stopped carrying cash completely. That’s the easiest and most believable NO!

        • Carolyn K,
          Among the many benefits of no longer attending meetings ( haven’t been in over a year) the entire money scam has also been eliminated. I really do not understand how an individual can borrow money from a person and then stiff them. First of all, if I was in a position that I needed to borrow money, I wouldn’t rest until I paid them back. These people know right up front that they are never going to pay anyone back and I guess that they must be okay with themselves. These are the same people that are spouting off all of their spiritual B.S. They are the Sponsors, meeting chair people, GSR’s , you know the so-called pillars of the program. I really view the ENTIRE program as a joke, a very bad joke! I am so thankful that I woke up. After I have been away from the program for a while, I often wonder why I took me so long to see the program for what it really is…… a really dangerous waste of time.

          • Frank,
            This is all very true and It seems that the members with time exploit the program and it’s vulnerable members the most! I don’t know if they figured out the BS of the program and stayed to get their just desserts or if they love the perceived “Power” they have over people and feel that the traditions, steps and a moral compass are no longer applicable to them. I wonder when they made their last amends. I know I never received the “Life Altering practice” (that will keep us from drinking) from any of the guys that sexually assaulted me. They just moved on to their next victim. I can say with 100% certainty, since you left they found another human ATM. Good for you for leaving and it doesn’t matter how long it took or when the proverbially light bulb to go on; be glad it did! Good work!

            As far as the program being a bad joke, it harms many people and their families. It goes against every Psychiatric, Psychological and basic human needs for a successful positive change in one’s life that will last. AA has many slogans that degrade, embarrass, and disempowers the newcomer. There isn’t ONE slogan that is affirming, reassuring or healthy. With this type of program how can there be a high success rate. AA is sustained by relapses and the “Revolving Door”. I was told, “You never graduate from this program; it’s lifelong journey”. This keeps their program going: No true tools to live life or therapy to address pain (perhaps childhood trauma) and AA with it’s sponsor and members spouting the negative slogans surely keeps one in the program. They bully, intimidate and use scare tactics to keep
            you enlisted.

            When you have an entire group/room full of people implementing a seemingly successful program and point out that you are doing it wrong…initially it’s hard to argue with so many of these happy sober people whom are willing to show you how it’s done, until there is another newcomer. Then the love bombing and niceties is geared away from you “The Most Important Person in the Room” to the newcomer and the slogans begin. It’s pretty sick….they are sick. We are healthy and know the truth!

          • Frank- Yes It gotten worse and worse. I had a guy come right up to me at The Marina Center and flat out ask me for 20 bucks. I whipped around and said ” excuse me. WE don’t give money out here. WE come here to get sober. That’s it”

            I know a man who is very generous and when I met him he told him how many men & woman owed him money. Even his sponsored had borrowed thousands from him. Although he got that money back, but God did he have to get mad and stop calling him as his sponsor and it took so many calls to get it back. He had people asking him for rent money.
            It’s bullshit. I am so glad I am gone!!!!!!!!!!!!! I feel so free.

            Glad to see you here. I feel great being gone. I went to a Smart Meeting on Tuesday night and half of the men were telling AA horror stories about control freaks in AA.

  6. PLease print and pass out the postcard to any of your Doctors, therapists, friends and relatives.
    Anyone. The more we educate the better.

    Or I can mail you some. ALso I am going to target Professionals. Educating them on Conscious, Healing empowering modalities for addictions and Alcohol Dependency.
    There is no disease. That is a lie. There are no AA studies, There has been no AA research. Tell everyone you know the truth.

  7. Carolyn,
    You nailed it! The way I see it, the majority of people that stay in the program are the ones that have shifted one addiction for another, meetings. I never could get into that whole sponsor bit, calling someone everyday just to check in……. for what? I admit that I have made many poor choices in my life due to getting high but once we realize this, and are no longer to accept the consequences of those choices then we change. To me that is the only motivating force to change. So why do we need to endure all the nonsense that comes along with 12 step recovery. Why do we need to surround ourselves with people that we would never hang out with in the first place. Why do I need to take advice from people who can’t really manage their own lives? Why must I remain in “recovery” for the rest of my life? What am I recovering from, poor decisions? Is poor decision making a disease? Am I really powerless over my decisions? Do I really need to listen to a bunch of whining, gossip and other peoples problems 3-7 hours a week? I just can’t believe that I ever bought into their nonsense and I am very grateful to Orange and sites like this for validating my early suspicions. I was finally able to see that there were others thinking the same thoughts regarding the program. It is really nice to be free of all those scare tactics that they use. I really like being the captain of my own ship. It is up to me whether I sail or sink, not A.A or N.A.

    • FRank -WHen I starting seeing the truth I was still attending meetings. But it became really apparent to me that it had become very culty.

      I never called a sponsor everyday. Thats insane. I called her when I needed to talk. And back then thats what everyone did. Then the Pacific Group and treatment made up these new rules. I was 18 when I came to my first AA meeting. No one told anyone what to do back in 1975. That would have scared us all away. Now I see it as being tricked although I am not sure if I was or not or did AA really change for the worse. I think it’s a bit of both.

      Back then there was no court mandating by even in the early 80’s it began. When I moved to Cali in 1983 I felt AA was different here from Hawaii and it was because of the strong influence by the PG.

      Im like you. Im so happy to be out. But like Tony Robbins says . The belief system is very powerful. It controls all of us in AA or not. SO if you believe that you are broken and powerless and not capable of being honest then you will feel like shit at 3 days, 3 years or 20 years sober. The low self esteem syndrome is bad. I see it someone I am very close to who I am trying to take to Smart so he will see the difference. I hate how AA gets a hold of someones mind! It makes me so mad.

      I want to change how the world see addiction and alcohol over use. I refuse to call it alcoholism. I hate that fucking word. Its not a disease. Its a behavior. Im am not powerless. I never was. When I wanted to stop. I did. Same with Pot. When I got fed up I stopped.

      Im glad you are here too. I don’ t fell alone since I left AA. Isn’t that interesting!

      • Massive , I believe a persons perception is their reality, whether it is based on facts or not. There in lies the problem w these snake oil pushers. They get a person when they are desperate, tell them this is the only way, fill their heads w the Bill W. program and instill in them the disease/ powerless bit. Like I said, if this becomes your reality, you are screwed! Then if you question the doctrine you are shunned. And the courts are mandating the young and old people w substance abuse proplems into this craziness. There has to be a better way. I am just very grateful that some of us saw the light and got away. When I think of sitting in meetings now and watching all those people getting destroyed, it makes me very uneasy. To follow the program really destroys self esteem which I believe is essential for a person to get their mental health back. Being diseased and powerless are very detrimental to someones self worth. We are not less than, we just use to drink and drug too much. For me, I am personally happier to abstain totally, and you know, it is no big deal any longer for me. I am just very happy that we have a place such as this to share constructive ideas.

          • Frank-

            yea! I love it. Empowered not powerless!

            Yes ….if I believe something is true which I did for years then that is my truth yes I see. I think it’s down right evil that they are going after teens. I am in it for the long haul to do what I can to stop this madness.Do you do any activism? Have you seen the letter we wrote to give to any professional.

      • Massive,

        I was not as active in AA but was around it for many years like you. I can see the decline of the “so called fellowship” over the years and the ridiculous rules they have fabricated. The rules even vary from meeting to meeting. very confusing for a new comer. This BS of calling every day, leaving a voice mail a lot of the time. You could drop dead and these days, they wouldnt even call to see if you OK. Your suppose to beg them to be abused.

        • Amy- lets travel backin time. There were no answering machines in 1975. When I called my sponsor who had 6 kids and 2 jobs I left a message but I knew she would never get it. Maybe sometimes she would. I always assumed I had to just keep calling and I would finally reach her. But I was a teen and she was 40. SHe had teenager girls. SHe loved me like her daughter. They were Hawaiian and really caring. It was different there with the LAKE family. Anyway I would call and call. So I never expected anything. But I wouldn’t call for months. She didn’t judge me. SHe was full of faults like everyone else although I put her n a pedestal she she feel off it… LOL.
          But AMY I agree, there are a few caring folks left.

          JR Harris if we did some statistics it would be staggering. Let’s say there are some 1.8 million in AA in USA and CANNADA now. But the number is declining. That is a fact. Of real memebers not court ordered, not rehab ordered etc. If over 36 years, the years I went there were 10 newcomers at every meeting who came for three months and hated it and never returned then how many millions went through AA over that time ? Its truly a math problem.

          Its MILLIONS! 30 million- 50 million. Everyone talks about the millions in AA. Its only 1.8 like I said and its a fact its shrinking so Carolyn are you good with stats? AM I right. I think there is a TV show brewing. We would have the numbers over DR DREW!!!

          NO ONE EVER CALLED A SPONSOR EVERY DAY…WHEN I heard this I was like WTF? You called when you needed to talk. Sponsors who need that are control freaks.

          • Massive,

            Calling your sponsor is nothing more than a form of control. Every time i called the sponsor that I had for a short time, she was preoccupied and I felt like I was bothering so I quit calling. She would talk a few minutes and then “had to run” but tell me to call her the next day.

            Next meeting I mentioned that I hadnt heard from her and she said; “your suppose to call me. That was the beginning of the end for me. How insensitive of her, not to understand that to receive a call from her would be a nice gesture and make me feel good. Guess thats what she was instructed to do by her sponsor. After all if you dont call your sponsor regularly, your not serious about get better.

          • Amy- yes I know from woman who were in PG that they were really treated like crap. you have to call when they tell you to call and be a slave for them.

    • Amen. AA is older creepy men who think women thirty years younger than them coming to AA for themselves are sexually available to them. This program can be VERY DANGEROUS for a newcomer. Especially women.

  8. Massive,
    Can you imagine just going up to someone out of the blue and asking for 20 bucks? How embarrassing! I have always worked hard, had great jobs, and stood on my own two feet. I always thought that is the way it was supposed to work. I have never minded helping someone that is trying, but panhandling is another subject all together. Most are simply too lazy to work. They would rather run a hustle on someone. Unfortunately, there seems to be a large number of these types that attend meetings. I often wondered if these people were coming for so-called recovery or just a convenient spot to run some sort of scam. There are some VERY strange people that frequent the meetings, at least in Virginia. It is sooooo nice not to have to deal with these people anymore. You know, there really are some real characters in those meetings, and I am not using the term character fondly…… Lol

    • Frank- I know a guy who about 10 people owed him money. I said What are you doing? People borrowing rent, borrowing a deposit for an apartment, $20 here , $40 here $800 here. I just heard a guy with 35 years got a sponsee to pay for his stupid indie film that was a piece of crap! In mens stagg meeting’s financial predators are very bad.

  9. No matter how many times I called the cops refused to take a report. Even in court it’s tricky. I get so furious over this, but I get stonewalled every single time. I’m at least getting to sue one of the bastards, but not the ones who stole the most. I am tempted to print this stuff out and go “share” at their AA group, though….

    • Tell the police they have to report it. Call the FBI if the cops wont report it. WTF ……why won’t they ? What exactly do they say to you?

      MAKE them do it.

      • I have called repeatedly since January. They claim it’s a civil matter and that I have to hire an attorney, which is not entirely accurate according the other police districts, lawyers, etc. So I’m suing. Still, I would like criminal charges, and my attorney claims (this happened over the line in a different district) that the cops where I live would’ve filed criminal charges immediately. I can discuss more privately, I am hitting from every angle I know how (legally, that is). You really don’t want to know what they have said to me, honestly I wish I could forget it all…

      • Massive, I currently do not do any activism but I believe that I am ready to start. Where can I find that letter to give to professional counselors? I still have ties to an existing Drug Court program here in Virginia that I was in. Might be a great place to start. I might find that very useful. That program in particular mandates a minimum of 2 N.A/A.A. meeting per week. By the way, their success rate of people staying clean is also around 5%, interesting huh?

          • I also have great copies of “Is 12 step not working for you that I can mail to you. Or you can print from the pdf here. Let me know.Hank Hayes was just here and I gave him some and he loved them.

  10. I recently went to a Smart meeting and I got a hand out on the words that I use that have a negative effect on me. I found myself all week long trying to stop these old words that make me feel even worse.

    I hope that we can share here some real “TOOLS” so that we might grow after leaving AA.

    Also I find it really important to do Yoga, ride my bike, swim, meditate, go to the spa and relax and read new recovery books by smarter programs!

  11. a young woman wrote this on my stop13step blog when I first created it. I loved her writing and thought I would share it here.

    Newcomew said, on May 17, 2010 at 5:38 pm (Edit)
    I am an Alcoholic. I am writing because I am an Alternate GSR, Secretary, and Cleanup person for three meetings in my area. And based on the literature I have received (i.e. the upside down triangle), and what I was told via our “trusted servants”- (ie our delegates) it is my understanding that I AM THE VOICE OF AA.


    I was recently copied on an email addressed to another AA member in response to a letter she wrote to GSO where in which she express some of her concerns regarding Sexual and Financial Predators in the rooms of Alcoholics Anonymous. Following is the response she received.

    “There is no AA answer to rape or scams. These are matters for outside authorities to handle, just as any other illegal activity. As we know, AA members are not above the law.– Doug Richardson;General Service Staff”

    So, we, the “AA members” are supposed to be at the TOP of the heap (as represented by the upside-down triangle)? Yet when she expressed her concerns to GSO (whom we pay through our donations to be our “PUBLIC FACE and PR VOICE”) she was clearly patronized- SEE ABOVE!. So my question here is, If GSO is not responsible for addressing this, just what exactly do they do? And how the hell am I going to be heard, short of going to the media with my fellows…?

    With that being said, I’d also like to inform you about what others are saying about AA. These “others” are not AA members. And they do not credit this program with saving their lives. So these individuals are even less likely to keep this issue “internal” so to say.

    One non-member said:

    “It has been said that if a person has been taken advantage of by members of her group, that it is his/her own fault for not taking basic precautions. The problem with this is that AA is not a place where people enter with the ability to take these basic precautions: they are vulnerable, addicted, confused, and emotionally fragile. And they are led to believe that AA is a place where people will care. These predators will justify their actions by saying that it is the same as walking into a barroom.

    Devastated and broken people getting together in a ratified space, with no oversight, and no standards, are instructed to trust the group; instructed to let go; instructed that their best thinking got them there; instructed to take the cotton out of their ears… If AA is going to instruct people to let go, they have got to provide a safety net. But they won’t, and when you hit the cement, it’s your fault for trusting”

    It is also interesting to note that these people see the same filth I do, yet when it is brought to the attention of our KRUSTY OLD BOARD MEMBERS, I am made to feel as though I am “insane” for speaking about such a thing. Bullshit.

    It is 2010. No one gets away with abuse anymore, and neither will AA.


    • I have seen a lot of this stuff happen when I was in aa and with the financial stuff I never understood why people couldn’t say NO! I can’t tell you how many times I have been hit up for money in aa/na meetings, IT’S A LOT! I would simply just say NO! Pretty simple. No different from a homeless person begging for money, just say NO!

  12. Good morning! Up with roosters! Literally. 5:30am here. Didn’t sleep too sound, but if I did sleep, I was dreaming about reading this site. I kid you not. 🙂 So I got up & read this blog. I, too, have been ripped off. I took action, though.

    I worked for an AA woman up at her ranch for 2 months. My AA boyfriend had gotten me the job. I trusted his judgement. She & I became instant friends — as we had many things in common. This was 2 years ago. I earned $3000 total. To this day, I’m still irritated that I listened to my guy. Money can ruin friendships. It’s taken a long while, but she finally paid me part of it. I doubt seriously I will see the last $700 that she owes me. I’ve pretty much let that go. It would be nice to get it, but I don’t see it happening. Ya live & learn. My AA boyfriend keeps telling me, “You’ll get it, just chill out. It’s like money in the bank!” Yeah, HER bank account.

    I had a sponsor (with 16 years so-called sobriety) who was bawling her eyes out one day at after a meeting. She needed $200. I loaned her the money. I ended up taking her to small claims last October, which brought her debt up even higher (court costs/fees)….to $382. She showed up at court the first time, agreed to pay in installments, made a payment of $50, then flaked out. So, 2 months ago, I went back to court to get her wages attached. Good luck with that one! I haven’t seen any money from that yet. She stopped coming to meetings, but that didn’t stop me from warning new members about her. One day I saw her in an Old-Timers Mtg. The topic was Honesty. Ha! I spoke up and said, “Honesty. You newcomers need to be real careful — don’t ever loan anybody any money here.” I was told after the mtg that I had spoken out inappropriately. Huh?

    I also have a tale about one of the so-called old-timers who embezzled money. Her name is Melinda. (So much for your precious anonymity, beyotch!) 5 of us were on the yearly Picnic/Activities Committee. We worked hard getting that event together. I ran the Raffle. I pulled in $580. Since she was the Leader of the committee, she held on to the money & was to turn it in to the Treasurer at the next Business Mtg. That money was to go for our dances & holiday decorations. She came to the mtg, confessed to all (in tears, of course) that she had a horrible gambling problem, & she had gambled it all away — the night after the picnic! To say we were pissed is an understatement. We had another mtg to discuss what to do about her. They did nothing. No police. No action at all. They said it was an outside issue. Huh? She agreed to pay it back, but we never saw a penny…nor did we ever seen her back at the club. We also found out she was also stealing from the basket. In the Real World, she could have gone to jail for theft, but the elders said, “She might relapse if we do that! Let’s just Let It Go & Let God handle it.” She relapsed anyway.


    • Hey Donita! Glad to see you here. I was sick with flu for 2 days but Im finally feeling better.
      I too was ripped off by a guy I didn’t meet in the program but he turned out to be in AA so I trusted him extra special.
      WRONG!!! 2K later.

      When I was 4 years sober I got ripped off for $600.00 from a new comer. Long story but Sponsor #1 told me It was own fault. THanks god I had 2 sponsors, cause she told me to go after him for the money and i did. I got it all back to.

      Im sorry this happened to you. I heard that someone in Hawaii stole money and unloved the Central Office of INtergroup and they had to bring in the FBI.

      feel free to contact me at

      It was so great that you called it and that we have connected. I really relate to you!!!

  13. PS:
    Melinda the thief had also been my sponsor way back when that happened. I was pissed when they asked me what MY part was in the deal.


    “Well, um, let me see…. I guess my part in it was that I did give her the Raffle Money after the picnic…”

    Heads nodded up & down.

    They are insane.

    • Donita- They are insane. Cult members in any cult are scary. Brainwashed, dogmatic, Closed minded, Fear based, Negative storytelling, arrogant…ALL these words are fitting for many members.

  14. Donita here. I have an update. Been trying to get my $187 for the last 18 months from Denise Kawkeka (took her to court, got a writ of execution to attach her wages). Sheriff served her employer (JCPenneys). Found out she had quit her job. Phooey. This was last week. Immediately I googled her, and there she was on Facebook and Linkedin! She listed her new employer! I called the number and she freaking answered the phone! HA! She announced the name of the company and stated her name. The moment was victorious! WIth a smile on my face, I said, “Found ya! Ha!” then I hung up. I got on my bike and peddled my hiney off to to the sheriffs department toot sweet…with a huge smile on my face. I know the gals, and they laughed when I told them I had found her. They said she would be served Monday (yesterday). I did something else last week after visiting the sheriff. I made 50 fliers with her Picture on them. The warning stated:

    DENISE KAWKEKA is a FINANCIAL PREDATOR & THIEF who is a member of ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS at the UKIAH FELLOWSHIP on Seminary Street. She BORROWED MONEY from me 18 MONTHS AGO. At that time she was MY AA SPONSOR. I TRUSTED HER. She has ripped off other people in Alcoholics Anonymous. She has owed me $187.00 since that time and REFUSES to pay me back. Nice ‘program’ you’re working, Denise… DO NOT LOAN MONEY to DENISE KAWKEKA !!

    I taped them up all around the AA club, on NA’s windows too. I taped them on every buildings door and windows all the way around the block, on telephone poles, and on AAers cars while they were in a meeting.

    Then I rode my bike over to her new job, and placed the remaining fliers on her car and other employees cars. I don’t feel bad about it in the least the slightest bit. I made my point. Perfectly clear. Some people think they can just walk all over me, but they soon learn I’m a lot tougher than they realize.
    Sorry this is so long. I jabber a lot. *hugs*

    • We need that kind of help with our local club here in Virginia. There’s pan handlers and con artists that need to be stopped. I think putting up signs makes it REALLY clear when that shit is hurting others and has to be shut down.

      • I use to feel sorry for some of these people and lend them money at first. You know, the ones that talk and share all that spiritual stuff. I figured they would pay me back….. Wrong! I can honestly say I have never had one of these bums ever pay me back. I finally came to the conclusion that if you are going to give these people money you had better consider it a gift and not a loan. In my view, the entire program and most of it’s participants are nothing but a scam.

        • Hi Frank,

          I did have one guy- a retired cop- pay me back $700 I loaned him- after several months of reminders, he even kicked in a few bucks of interest unasked. But that was about it.

          I finally got to the point of giving $5 one time no pay back needed just to keep mony problems out of my recovery. I figured $5 buys a person a meal at McDonalds or puts a little gas in the car, but that’s it.
          Once word got around that I wasn’t a good mark for panhandling, they stopped asking.

    • Update: I am a scorpio, watch my sting. For the record, I have not backed down from this debt, owed to me by a financial predator who was a sponsor to me. Had to go to courthouse again & sheriff’s dept last week with some updated new info on Denise Kawkeka. I have my fingers crossed. If all goes the way it should go (!!!), Santa Sheriff will deliver to me a check for $258 (interest and fees have added up for her) and Denise will find a surprize at her ATM as she tries to withdraw money for Christmas shopping….. Send me good thoughts and wishes…and let’s NAIL THIS BITCH to the AA WALL of SHAME, shall we?!!!

      • Rainbow- I am glad to see you are getting what she stole from you. There is a man in Los ANgeles with over 37 years of SOBRIETYYYYYY…..who owes his male sober chums over $250,000 dollars. He needs to be taken to the law.

        Do it girl! Let those steppers know they cant rip you off!

  15. rainbow _ I am laughing out girl! Good for you! I guess the oh so special secret society is out of the bag.

    They needed to be outed. For every small petty crime, for every 13 step, for every rape, for every huge scam in millions, for sponsor abuse, for culty shit they do all the time, for crazy power tripping done at The Pacific Group and every spin off of it, for every AA judge who is illegally sentencing normal citizens to an AA religious groups (cause that is what it is) and for all the murders that have occurred these past few years by members who were killed by court ordered violent and sex criminals who plea bargained their way into the rooms.

    GOOD FOR YOU Donita. Courage you have and I am also sick and tired of what I hear is going on in the court rooms in Los Angeles.

  16. callling sponsors didnt help me –
    they were not in when i called –
    or they were grumpy-
    one of them sometimes was ok but just talked all the time couldnt listen
    so i would mostly just listen to there problems-
    then you were only to phone when you had something good to say-
    phoneing them upsets them annoys them-
    first few phone calls i made i got sexaully abused and verbally-
    put me off phoneing then i was got at pressured to phone-
    but no one be in or they be grumpy or i would waste my phone credit to listen to there problmes
    while haveing no one to discuss my own problems with-
    why do they ask people to phone them when it annoys them?
    And none of those that asked me to phone or sponsors ever phoned me.
    i dont own anyone in AA any money-in 12 yrs of going there some people did offer me the ocassional lift always a man-
    and i always offered petrol money
    most times i said no i walked miles at times with a stick arthritus but i like walking.
    i recall one of them driveing by me one day and shouting abuse out her car window at me.
    a few did ask me to take money-times i was skint and they knew i was
    because of things i said such as when i
    would explain i didnt have money for the pot but would put extra in the next week i wasnt saying it to get money from them-
    a few said here take this-i refused said no its ok but they insisted
    mostly i kept refusing till they said ok
    but a few times i said ok but only if you will take it back and i payed it back
    very small amounts such as a £1 for the pot-
    one man though insisted i take think it was £60-
    he didnt want it back but i made him take it and i also cleaned his home for him for free.
    i didnt go to aa to scam people out of money-i didnt like it when those few offered to loan me summit-cause i dont like being beholding to anyone-
    but i was gratefull to them and payed it back-
    it was nice thing that a few did in the 12 yr i went there.
    i would have got by without it but it was nice of them i thanked them.
    however i wish i had never taken anything from them now-
    because takeing a lift or small things that i did even though i didnt ask refused and payed back anything i was loaned got cast up to me by one of them –
    i also gave small amounts or baccy cigs food gifts and bought someone a meal at times-
    apart from the time i got ripped off-
    i never mentioned what i gave to anyone there
    or to those people again never cast it up or mentioned it to anyone else except here today-some of those folk relapsed too
    so what -i didnt give them on the condition they didnt drink again.
    one guy though ripped me off manipulated me for it said he pay it back and i needed it back but never got it.
    but it just small amount so am not off to take it to court.
    i have been in and out of work since i was 14 years old-
    and for some of the years i went to AA i worked -but i am too ill to work now
    but i didnt scam anyone from AA for nothing when i was on benifits and out of work or when i was skint
    i have been takeing stop smokeing pills from doctor for past 10 days-
    and cut down on tobacco and weed and today havent had anything.

    • Sally,
      I never really understood the whole Sponsor concept. I was in the program for about 4 years and during that time I had 3 different Sponsors. I found pretty much the same thing as you did, they were only interested in themselves. I was told that the only purpose that a Sponsor serves is to guide a Sponsee through the steps. Never once did any of the 3 of them offer to help me with the steps, really how could they, they had never worked the steps themselves. I had zero interest in working them anyway once I read through them. How was that mumbo-jumbo going to help? Anyway, I came to the conclusion that the only reason people in the program want Sponsees is that it kinda gives them status, it makes the Sponsor feel important. It’s all about them. The truth of the matter is, I am sooooo glad I quit attending. I didn’t like hanging out with any of these people anyway. My life is far less complicated without AA or NA , and I have found it far easier to stay clean without all the drama. Rarely ever think about getting high because I am not around people that talk about it 24/7. I have learned that I like being in control of my destiny without escaping life with alcohol or drugs, and that’s the motivating factor for me.

  17. thankyou-
    I dont believe it anymore -that i have to do steps to get and stay sober
    or be a better person infact i liked the person i was 12 yr ago.
    but for 12 yrs that is what i have thought-
    that i had to get and do the steps-

    my problems were abuse
    mix that with any drink and you got problems
    -i did have to change myself-
    but i didnt need them or steps to do that
    whats helpd me most where i needed
    to change -was therpies and non 12 step counselling.

    my last sponsor was the only one who really helped me
    properly and decently i may say with steps
    she was okay person. didnt harm me
    she was just passing on what she belives she has to pass on
    she belived she was helping me
    and she was decent person to me.
    i liked her i still remember her with no ill feeling towards her because she
    was decent to me .
    she only made about 2 comments i disliked but those are her beliefs she has a right to them just didnt sit right in my gut thats all.
    However they didnt do much for me -doing them the steps-i mean
    i did the 4th step to death there was nothing left to share
    I think she was really in AA or something-“big book”
    she explained some things to me about how not everyone who go AA is in AA
    even if they been sober a long time
    she told me not everyone who go is an alcoholic
    she said she thought i was a real alcoholic an alcoholic /addict
    and told me that i was just dry drunk and if i went through the steps then
    i would be sober-(she met me 4 times )
    and that if i didnt i would just keep relapsing and die drunk
    anway i was so tired of everything i was suisidal
    i just wanted peace thats all i wanted and all i still want-
    i was spoken through first 2 steps
    and asked questions she listend to me –first one that did
    i just fell to my knees and took the 3rd step and did the rest.
    she said i wouldnt regrette it and that when i got back to my own city and back into meetings there things would be diffrent
    It was diffrent all hell broke loose and i felt i was being stoned to death by most of them- round where i live-
    lots of stuff-
    and it didnt work – i started to struggle wanting
    to run away from AA and wanting to have a spiff
    i was in so much pysical pain as well
    lot happend i was doing what i had been taught to do around the steps
    the step prayers all that i was going to meetings
    i phoned 2 folk
    i was doing service doing the suggestions
    i was working the damn steps as best i could every day every hour right up till the second i put a spliff in my mouth and used again-
    so it didnt work.
    that was it that was the end of the story for me that was the last time i was ever going to
    try AA or steps ever again-
    i left.
    i picked up again and left again.
    am not sure about it all what the score is with AA.
    i was a near basket case by the time that woman tryed help me
    i no longer know if i am an alkie or not and dont care anymore
    i dont know but mostly now i dont belive it any more
    if the steps are what maby a real alkie needs or not
    maby a real alkie can get and stay sober without steps
    i dont know –
    really no one who is going to AA is at fault about some stuff-
    i mean we went there or got sent there
    and then we heard what we heard none of us made it up
    bill wilson did.

    I only met with her that sponsor 3 or 4 times over a period of 2-3 months
    she lived far from my city i had to get up very early
    catch buses long distance to go see her-
    i was very tired and had very little money.
    however because when i went first time to see her a few days after i called her even as i first called her
    my desire for weed and drink realy did go away i stopped and didnt think about it-so i thought she was stopping me somehow AA do stop me in my tracks i got periods off drug drink.
    i wouldnt go into the meetings all that time just an odd one or two
    i kept away till she had took me through them. how i got to meet her was-i had been going to AA was clean sober relapsed AGAIN!
    i had relapsed and been out for a while
    and had got drunk a couple of times when out -on one-
    went back drunk some men collard me
    gave me her number they had came from another city i didnt know them
    dont think anyone from round here did.
    the next morning i was ready to end my life
    i had thots of i cant hack AA i dont want to be there
    but i dont want to be drugging drinking depressed
    couldnt live as i was or do AA i wanted to die -but i phoned her instead
    from then met with her and she and others from that city took me through the steps-
    prior to this i had done 4th steps on forms that was apperanlty according to these people not the right way-
    well there way didnt work for me either-
    people kept saying i wasnt doing it not trying
    i twisted my wrist and had it bandaged up from writeing
    my spines knackered when i write even on computer it flares up
    my hands too arthiritus.
    i also hand wrote them as had no computer.
    i also hand copied the forms with pen cause i was only given one and that sponsor said he couldnt give me any more-
    so i had to make my own from the original by hand-
    had no money for a photo copier
    i also walked miles must have done a thousand on foot-
    tore ligements in my legs-
    got up at dawn borrowed money from loan co for bus fares
    long distance busses to go get the steps-
    it was rare i got a lift and mostly refused-
    since if i took one later i would hear “We are not a taxi service”
    or if a man found my address from dropping me off and later some harrased me
    And that would be my fault since i took the lift.

    when i frst went to AA i was so ill i had became unemployable-
    doctor told me i would never work again-
    PTSD and spine -i also had drink drug probs.
    i had just escaped from a 10yr domestic violence situation
    and been battered for years
    i was in a terrable state pre AA before they ever met me-when i was on speed and (I got off those drugs with 6 week drug counselling over 16 yrs ago and years before i went to AA.and havent touched them again )
    i dropped to 6 stone and lost my hair(got it back now and my weight ok now)
    they didnt see me at that time cause i went other places for help and pulled up out of things started to get bit better-
    but still drank and used weed and was in domestic violence –
    beacause of my back and PTSD and domestic violence i got too ill to work and had to leave the rag trade where i worked
    however i wasnt allowed sick money only the basic benefits-
    because i didnt know that you had to appeal to get them-
    i also wanted to learn knew things get well and find work-
    and thats just what i did-
    pre AA-i went look for voluntray work and courses just before i went to AA-got my partner out (but was liveing in fear )
    i stopped drink and weed all on my own no one else at all helpd me do that-
    and stayed off for couple of months
    but then started again just prior to going to AA
    the day i went i was clean and sober tho i didnt drink that day-
    after i went to AA i continued with trying to sort myself out
    courses and also continued with my pycologist i had been seeing for a few years pre aa and continued going to support and survival for domestic violence
    they stopped me from going to other places of help i eventually stopped seeing my pycologist-
    i went into further education and courses and voluntary work then into payed work
    i had 2 jobs.
    i was pressured by them all the way not to do courses not to work-
    there pressure along with lifes pressures i got stressed out and my then sponsor told me walk out job and i did.
    also was in and out of AA relapsing-
    She was decent to me-that last sponsor
    however when i picked up weed again she soon turned her phone off
    only got back once to ask if i had drank or was it just weed
    it was just weed.
    i tryed getting back in touch but she didnt get back to me.
    i voicemailed and txt twice but to this day no answer.
    and i didnt call her again
    between AA/NA i had 7 sponsors one was a man.
    i disliked 3 of my sponsors one really did my gut and head in-
    i felt hate at times towards her-
    i studied that for years why i disliked her so much
    well she did a lot of things to me i would have disliked anyone for-
    and though she had good points and sometimes i liked her
    there were things in her nature i just couldnt stomache-
    many folk in AA the male sponsor i once had being one of them
    believe that others are jealouse of them –
    and that if someone disliked or hates them its because they are jealouse of them-
    because of what they have got
    though i have that human emotion-
    i really dont think thats why i disliked some in AA-
    there soberity and peace of mind
    good things to have but am not and never have been jealouse of someone being sober and haveing peace am glad for them if they do.
    i often wanted to be sober clean and have peace
    i still want inner peace-
    and sometimes i do have that
    but i honestly dont have jealousey of those who have this in AA.
    i knew mormon brothers and sisters who were sober clean and peacefull they had
    peace happiness
    the missioneries
    i had no jealousey of them or dislike or hate
    even though when i met them i was in a bad way and depressed
    i didnt feel envy of them i felt happy to be with them.
    i loved the mormon missioneries and some of the sisters and brothers
    AM an X mormon baptised when i was a young girl but left pre AA
    have been back to see them on and off but never go back.
    I had no jealousey of the missioneries or hate or dislike or anger towards them
    they were people i loved being with.
    AA i had no jealousey of there soberity-i didnt reckon that much to there soberity if you want me to be honest-
    i didnt like being around them that much
    i wanted to be around sober folk tho as i was trying to keep sober
    i didnt enjoy there company since it pulled me down made me feel bad inside or afraid.did my head in.
    i had a few moments of enjoying one or tows company brief moments thats all.
    i didnt want to be one of them i disliked the way they were –
    i liked some of them-but i disliked the way they were
    cant find words for that-i always felt they were folk i wouldnt want to be.
    peace i wanted but not by becoming one of them-
    there were times i felt love for some and i liked some of them
    but really i didnt know any of them that well
    i never clicked with them-
    i didnt spend lots of time outside of meetings with any of them really.
    and the few times i did werent all that enjoyable one used to just shout and roar in my ear when i bumped into him.
    and shout abuse at me at times.
    even the few times i was in company of one for a short while and they were being okay
    i still didnt enjoy there company that much.
    there were many i didnt know at all
    i didnt know any that well.
    some seemd ok when they spoke to me.
    i had feelings of like for some and love even and compassion
    but on whole there was something i just didnt like about them.
    i really didnt care what they had what ever it was that they had
    most of them didnt seem that peacefull inside to me from where i was sat anyway.
    i felt i had no choice but to become one of them i had to or i would die.
    maby some people are jealouse of them i dont lknow i can only talk for myself i wasnt .

    jealousey can cause hate and anger-but so can other things.
    am glad i never sponsored anyone-
    in my harm list one of my harms was that
    i had once treated one of my x partners in some of the ways my previouse partner had treated me–
    you know i took what the last one did out on the next one-
    not everything just some things.
    i knew at the time it was wrong and i knew then i was doing it cause it had been done to me-
    the man by the way was no saint either he was a speed dealer who was doing his best to keep me on the stuff
    even though i was sreaming for help to stop-
    anway that of course wasnt mentioned in my 4th step since we only write WHAT WE DID
    what i did was shout at him a lot and stood him up.
    anyway she said thats wrong you shouldnt have taken out on him what someone else did to you.
    and i said i know it was wrong-
    and i do know i knew then.
    so am glad i never sponsored anyone-
    never told anyone you are an alcoholic and if you dont do this you will drink and die-
    this works you wont regrete it
    but am sorry that when i went back to meetings i passed that on to some degree
    when i shared for those few months i was back
    thats a lot of writeing i did there-if you read it all
    i thank you-
    and it be good to hear what happend to you in AA
    and to here how you have helpd yourself with you drink problem

    • yes and they are never happy with any service
      you do. they always want you to do
      one old timer would keep repeating himself like a worn out parrot
      “never mind saying what AA did for you the question is what are you doing for AA in the way of service-”
      he would say that to a room of people who were all doing service
      some of them looked to ill to even hold a kettle.
      new commers were put to work in some meetings
      as soon as they arrived where i live-
      In NA they had me carring heavy bags of books on my back
      and my spines knackered
      they had me doing service at times when i should have been in bed resting
      i really am ill have other illnesses-
      but hopefully my stress levels will go down now am out of the place that was causeing me stress
      I been on stop smokeing pills from doctor –
      i ave stopped smokeing stopped useing weed and dont feel like drinknig-
      it took 10 days to work-
      and its worked for everything- i only wanted to stop smokeing tobacco-
      in ten days 2 pills a day have done what 12 yrs of madness in AA/NA didnt do
      and i dont have to make no one a cup of tea or go to area
      at crack of dawn to listen to a bunch of madmen arguing
      or walk in the sun or snow every day to sit
      in a church hall or hospital to listen to the same people dribble the same stories or steps-and takeing cheap shots at me from the seats
      i dont have to do nothing but swallow 2 pills a day
      wish i had went to doctor sooner.

  18. One of my favorite sayings in AA was “if you want what we have and are willing to go to any lengths to get it” HA! I do believe that people in AA were just looking for what they could get…a cup of coffee, a meal, a ride, etc etc etc. I was also getting caught up in the “if you want what we have” mentality and started comparing myself with my sponsor.
    My sponsor married well, sent her kids to all the right schools, etc. But what rang warning bells for me was the fact that she had replaced one addiction for others (shopping, food and clothing hoarding)and was not being treated for very glaring bipolar disorder.. I am out now and am very happy not to have to call her every day and be chastised over the phone, in the car, at the meetings and anywhere else she could get me to go to. I am very happy to find this place to safely say what I need to to move on 🙂

  19. In AA, nobody seemed to say they could put their finger on the reason AA kept them sober. It seemed like some mysterious cure existed for addiction. It is working for them, but part of that mystery might be what is unveiled here on this website about the harm done by the AA industry, twelve-step culture, and the professional people and organizations that blindly enforce AA, the disease concept, and abstinence fixation into our lives.

    • Hi Dan,

      What keeps people sober in AA? Well, first of all it doesnt keep a lot of people sober who end up there; because there approach does not suit everyone and seems Odd/strange. I use to ask that question to people with years of sobriety. Some would say it was the steps (mystery to me), others would claim its the meetings and the fellowship (mystery to me). Then there are those who say it’s being of service (mystery to me). I have a tenancy to think that for the most part, its the brainwashing and your level of tolerance for that: They tell me, If I try to moderate and/or leave AA; after a period of sobriety, its my disease talking to me. I AM POWERLESS. I may end up laying in front of the dumpster behind the liquor store not knowing how I got there. Even though that never happened to me before. Granted I had a drinking problem. I guess thats possible because they tell me my experience will always get worse. I might be in control for a year or longer but the end result will be the same and probably worse.

      Whether you have a desire to leave AA and stay sober or leave and moderate (moderating and staying in AA would be difficult IMO); I think it boils down to living a life of fear or freedom; which can be a grueling decision after long time exposure to The Program. Of course there are some who say they like AA and have the freedom to leave anytime. However, I often wondered over the years; if that was not fear. I use to think, do you really enjoy this anymore or do you believe its maintenance for your disease. Dont Know! Now if brainwashing keeps you sober and thats acceptable, I see no problem with that. Plus if you believe its a disease; then brainwashing cured your disease. If you dont believe you have been brainwashed, then its a mysterious cure that comes from the study of The Bill Wilson Bible (Magic). Than you for letting me rant after a hard days work.

  20. EXACTLY Dan!

    I asked my ex sponsor a couple of months ago if going to meetings was supposed to be the “treatment” for what she and AA kept insisting to me was “my disease”… She said, “Well, no…”

    Yet and still she said I just had to keep going to meetings, praying and doing what she and my grand sponsor told me to do and then…suddenly…I would get my MIRACLE and God would lift the obsession with alcohol. She said we were POWERLESS as alcoholics over alcohol and all we could do is pray, obey and wait. WTF?

    Hmmmm…. (

    I suspect that deep, deep down they do not really all REALLY believe all that BS.

    If AA’s believe that alcoholism is a disease, why do they not believe it is requires real clinical treatment? Prayer is powerful; still, it is not TREATMENT for a DISEASE. Are they really so obtuse as to be utterly incapable of seeing this? It was in the back of my mind all along. But they just kept accusing me of stinking thinking that would eventually lead to my death.

    “That thinking is going to kill you!” they often warned.

    The anti-intellectualism of AA and the 12 Step Doctrine: (

    And the question I pose repeatedly is, if AA’s themselves sincerely BELIEVE that alcoholism is a disease over which the afflicted have absolutely NO POWER…why do people who have slips, relapses, etc. face such HARSH reactions from AA members, sponsors and old timers?


    Would one shun, punish, fire, criticize, and humiliate, etc. a person who had the disease called cancer for going out of remission? Of course not!

    But AA’s kick the shyte of members who relapse… I know that first hand.

    They refuse to look at the research. They refuse to update their literature and become educated on work is effective for those dealing with alcohol over use. They want only to fight their “devil” (a.k.a disease) with “the program” (a.k.a. made up religion).

    Again, do they REALLY believe it is a disease?

    And the fact that their PROGRAM does not help most people…which is a SURPRISE, being utterly brainwashed, in denial and insane, they refuse to accept.

    What’s the big frickin SURPRISE?????

    I stand confounded by their thinking or lack thereof.

    This is why I got so much flack from my sponsors regarding my constant probing and research. I was FORBIDDEN (a.k.a. suggested) to continue to look up information online. Do they REALLY think they can control information in this, The Great Age of Information? They try. Why? In the face of Information, AA is a terminally moribund Beast. They sense it, if they don’t know it.

    Ignorance will no longer be bliss in The Information Age.

    There is never any point for me to engage in discourse with religious people. They always fall back on miracles and magical thinking. I do have a deep and abiding faith in the benevolence of the Creator of All…but I will not have God relegated to a magician that we lay waiting and praying to solve for us what we have been given the POWER to solve for ourselves. Unfortunately, I fell for the lie that they were not religious initially. And I have paid for this quite dearly.

    What I want to know is WHY our government and mental health professionals are failing to objectively examine the realities here and take appropriate action regarding this religion posing as treatment for alcohol and substance abuse. This is PERPLEXING beyond any reason…

    I know it must all tie in with DOLLAR GREEN…

    It just MUST!

    • IllBeFree,

      I just want to say; I dont believe Dan thinks it’s a disease and he questions there cure. I was simply throwing my more than two cents in.

    • Wow!

      We were just talking about this at a SMART Recovery meeeting today. (I am still working to complete the month of March in SMART…going okay…) I would strongly advise anyone considering leaving AA or NA to attend a SMART Meetings. (It’s so cool to just talk normally to other adults…)

      AA is not really offering any treatment, but society feels good about it because they have a place to stash the drunk-lushes away under the guise of providing “treatment”….

      >Another alcoholic rides off into the warm, promising sunset of AA. And America SIGHS…<

      Whenever people start to see what is REALLY offered at a typical NA and/or AA meeting they are going to be stupid shocked! (I was.)

      I know most people think that those meetings offer some type of treatment and some modicum of intervention by a qualified facilitator.

      They have no idea…

      Anyway…thanks for posting this Massive!
      YOU ROCK!

      • illbefree- 🙂 I went to quite a few when I was leaving AA. It really helped me. It was more about seeing a saner more sensible way to deal with problems. Way beyond alcohol….

  21. Illbefree- another take on that is if AA is supposed to be the only way to sobriety otherwise they say you will face death, institutions and jail- then why DO SO MANY people in AA relapse and fail? That is pretty bad when the ONLY way Fails so much. Maybe 12 steppers- Just maybe AA IS NOT THE ONLY WAY !!!!!! THANK GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Sorry for the yelling…got carried away……:)

    • You are hitting it on the brainwashed head AntiD. The reason I think theyare so over-controlling is that deep down, they KNOW it is NOT the ONLY WAY! Damn it…is it even a “way” at all? Don’t mind me… I yell and go on and on… I’m thankful you guys put up with me! 🙂

  22. Great question. Both Dan, sue and illbefree, I can see this to be a big problem. AA does not keep most people sober. Its about 1% success rate if that.

    One day a few years before I left when trying to make AA safer from the inside, I looked around the room of my old home group. I thought it was a combo of all the things Sue mentioned. I was so WRONG!!!.
    SO I started looking at each women who I knew pretty well, and I thought, how many women here have ever gone on a 12 step call. How many did the 12 steps. How many are of service? Out of 40 women…many took service positions for the group, many had worked basic steps, many repeated the rhetoric from the big book, …but it was the day I realized that no one in the room had ever done an old fashioned 12 step call. It did something to me forever. I got that a basic principal I lived by for over 30 years was Bullshit. A complete lie.
    Thank God for this moment. thank Orange for OP, which I read voraciously for two solid weeks all night long. Oh, and thank ilse ftg and MA for who gave me a place to read and blog.
    Once the crack was opened in my mind, there was no going back. That was a good thing. Being a GSR while I tried to Make AA safer.. oh deal lord what a f#######king joke that was.
    I sometimes left stinkin -thinkn cause the aa haters gave me so much shit. SO I would not blog or read ST for months till ftg would come to my blog stop13stepinaa to see how I was doing. Im so glad Kali came to my old meeting sharing about her bad 13 stepping experience. My own family, …taking them to a supposed YP meeting. The Marina Center in Culver CIty should be closed down. A horrible disgusting retail meeting hall filled with sexual predators with no Club Manager in charge what so ever.

    Even as I write this I get the heebie geebies …a Mud pit of sorts.

    But it my child who was over drinking….I thought….i was a brainwashed mom…but it was him, it was my son, taking him to a disgusting AA meeting and there I saw AA as it is today. Not through rose colored glasses of hawaii AA in the 1970’s ….even AA there has changed.

    There was no going back from then. That was the summer of 2008, Kali arrived in Jan of 2009…and it was downhill from there. Im so glad I am out and I am free from AA’s brainwashing strong hold. In a way I am glad I didnt just drift away 10 years earlier which I could have. This way I really left with a clear vision of what a lie everything in AA is about.
    sorry for the rant…

    • I was told (when I offered) that i couldnt help anyone; until I had done the 12 steps myself. What the hell does that mean. How about getting out of yourself and being there in what ever way is necessary, for someone in a crisis. That might mean directing someone to a detox facility first for the Physical addiction. After that, how about spend some time with them; and truly listen to whats happened in their lives. Be supportive and show them you really care. Have some empathy for what they have been through in their lives that created the problem Yes, I said created the problem! Most of the old timers I know; dont even sponsor anyone. Maybe thats a good thing huh. They can mess up your head just listening to them spout in the meetings. If I have to do some dog and pony show according to AA’s rules; in order to help someone with an alcohol abuse problem, I would rather feed the homeless or rescue an animal. Of course I would love to help someone with an addiction problem if at all possible. I just know that I needed something they could not provide.

      • sue- i know we had different early experiences in AA, and although we both spent over 30 years around/in the program, we both have come to the same conclusion in many ways now.

        Although, Im sorry I stayed at all as a young teen. I cant go back and change it , but I am so glad I’m gone now. Im glad you too found your way out as well.

    • Thank you for THAT Massive.

      Again, it is so validating to hear from someone who had been with AA for so long and REALLY knows it from the core. Otherwise, I might think that it was my “diseased-thinking” driving me. I need to hear your perspective on this. You have had more time with AA than both my ex sponsor & grand sponsor with their 20-year boastful, puffed up shyt-eatin evil AA condescending grins! And yet, you found a way to see that CRACK and to keep investigating–which is what BOTH of them REFUSE to do. Ya got brass Massive… After 36 years? I’m finding this a struggle after only 18 months. I can’t IMAGINE the view from your eyes; quite ADMIRABLE to say the least.

      It makes me wonder if my grand sponsor and sponsor would ever See what you have come to see. If there was one sentence that you could utter to AA people with 20+ years that might put a crack in their resolve, what would it be?

      I think Motherhood is a huge component of Our Perspective. My sponsor never had kids…and Granny left her 4 very young children for a year as she was instructed to do 20 years ago so that she could get a solid year of recovery from alcohol and drugs. So, she had no patience or sympathy with me for not wanting to be separated from my mother. She is a CLASSIC HARD ASS! Still, this explains why or how she would not be able to See AA from our perspective as one who left 4 young children (with her husband) for an entire year. She proved that she would go to any lengths for the program and I would imagine that would extend to the present day. I was meant to emulate THAT? ( Sorry, I have 3 children and I would have had to come up with another way. Blessedly, I did not have any substance problem 20 years ago…)

      I first noticed my serious reservations about The Program when my niece decided to go to a meeting with me a couple of months ago. She was pregnant with her 2nd baby and had gone through a lot of life challenges due to alcohol over use. I noticed how very TORN I was inside. My sponsor instructed me to, if I ever brought my niece, that I MUST sit at a totally separate table from her. This irked me, being the over-protective aunt that I am.

      But I obeyed. All during that meeting I was NERVOUS. Instead of being relieved that I had inspired my dear niece to go to an AA meeting and get help, I was scared for her.

      I was TERRIFIED that someone was going to be mean to her…abusive…condescending…

      I didn’t realize that as a part of the AA “Indoctrination Process” they would NEVER treat her the way that they had come to treat me….no…no…NOT YET.

      Then I began to question myself, “If you think AA is SO great, why are you so fearful about how they are going to treat your niece?”

      It was because of the Emotional Abuse I had suffered and had seen others suffer. I did not really have the ballz to admit that at the time.

      Soon my son had agreed to go to a meeting with me. At first I was excited…but then I started having those maternal alarms go off again as they had with my niece who is in my heart, my daughter.

      “Now wait a frickin minute!” I balked to myself. “What is going on with me? Don’t I want these kids to get help?”

      You see, deep within me I knew that AA was not only going to fail to help my precious young adults, it was going to harm them. I KNEW IT!

      That is what you saw Massive when you took your son to the meetings with you. That POWERFUL Goddess Maternal Protective Nature kicked in and got your Divine Senses going. No Mother will sit idly by while her Child is threatened! This is Our God-Given POWER that even AA could not break or diminish.

      Yes, we allowed them to screw with us; but Our Children?! NOT FLUCKIN WAY DUDE!

      You see, that is why getting the Karla Brada story out and letting Americans REALLY SEE the peril that Our Children are being placed in is such a key component of this movement.

      A perverted one percent (maybe) success rate…AND the shyte is dangerous to physical safety, emotional health and spiritual well being?!




      This whole country has been brainwashed! It’s time to turn this mutha OUT!

      Okay…now I am sorry for hollerin y’all… :-/

      • IllBeFree

        ask: ” If there was one sentence that you could utter to AA people with 20+ years that might put a crack in their resolve, what would it be?”

        I know you ask Massive and we’ll see what she says. Personally, I wouldnt even try to put a crack in their resolve; unless they ask. If a true believer sees no problem with AA; anything you say would not be acceptable and probably met with a slogan or two. Followed by a look of pity because you dont get it. Just my opinion. 🙂

          • Right…right Sue. I know exactly what you mean.

            None are SO BLIND as those that refused to See…

            And they could See what we See if they wanted to See it.

            It is SO CLEAR.

            They don’t want to See it. They like the view up their own blink-hole.

            I can not think of one thing to say to them either except…

            BITE ME!

            Thanks Sue!

          • IllBeFree,

            I shared my feelings once with someone I “sorta liked” and she said; “Now Could they all be wrong, Sue and your right.
            I rember thinking: YEP! (-:

          • Wow Sue… That smug, “Now Could they all be wrong, Sue and your right.” Sounds just the fluck like most of them…doesn’t it.

            And she was utterly unaware of the fact that , that is EXACTLY the stance that AA takes between themselves and the rest of the entire world.

            It’s a Grand Delusion of Madness!

  23. @Massive
    You said
    Once the crack was opened in my mind, there was no going back
    Me too, but it was by no means an instant thing. I had been devouring the orange pages for at least 6 months before I stopped going. I remember when I first started reading stinkin- thinkin you were still going to meetings, trying to change it from the inside. Then I remember that day when you finally announced that you were never going back and meant it. Woohoo!
    Like many people on all of these blogs I experienced strong feelings of cognitive dissonance…simultaneously holding two conflicting thoughts… when I first went into the rooms. I knew there was something not quite right here but I didn’t know what it was yet. Because of my drinking history I allowed them to implant the idea that the problem was me. The result was a four year nightmare when my life went down paths I never thought it would and all of my personal and ancestral values and life experience were simply dismissed. It did nothing for my drink problem, the longest I ever got up was 51 weeks. I had longer periods of sobriety before I ever went there. I felt lost and directionless in there, sitting in meetings in a kind of trance watching my life slide out of view while I waited for the miracle.
    Folks, there is no Santa Claus, and no such thing as miracles. Sky Daddy doesn’t stop us drinking, we do. So I got educated about what was really going on and when the crack opened in my mind wide enough I left never to go back. That opening of my mind was the end of cognitive dissonance for me. I was not diseased or terminally flawed, it was the program , the ideology and its practices that were deeply sickeningly flawed. I got my real name back and my birthday went back to the day I was born on like sane people.
    I have found deprogramming harder than I thought. Some of stuff got implanted really deeply in me even though I only went for 4 years. It is serious mind control.
    By the way i have kicked my drinkings ass.I have over three years up I am definitely not powerless. I did it by getting a grip.

    • Wow Steve!

      That is tremendous. It seems that for a lot of people, once you see that CRACK it is definitely the beginning of a process of leaving AA no matter how long or short that process is. One cannot dip their toe in the same stream twice or unknow what comes to be KNOWN…

      And your kicking alcohol’s ass INSPIRES me… You said it just took getting grip, eh? Better than getting a friggin BB up the wahzoo…I do know that.

      I wish I had seen the CRACK and just wised up and stopped going. I think for me, AA looked kind of like a BIG AZZ CRACK from the jump, but I was in trouble. I needed help. They were the only ones offering to help me.

      I honestly feel like a jerk sometimes now, because they did help me…but then they hurt me. It’s like being an abused child whose parents feed you, shelter you, hug you and say they love you…then they beat the friggin hell out you…Then hug you, hold you & tell you they ‘love’ you again…

      I wonder how long I would have stayed with AA if my sponsor had not fired me. I REALLY do wonder. I mean, I did consider following her instructions and getting another sponsor and I did still have my grand sponsor to talk to…but she moved out of state last year. I spoke with her a few times after my sponsor fired me. She instructed me to “Woman UP!” and get back to basics. I was to keep going to meetings and focus on Service Work. I was to completely take my mind off of thoughts of my sponsor who just fired me as those thoughts were of the past. I was to accept the consequences of my drinking and just MOVE ON; no further adieu… She was basically instructing me to be a robot without emotion. I don’t know how to do that!!!! Lord help me! Had she been in state, I likely would have just gravitated to her loving arms and ass-kickin boot. Scares me to death….and that’s how I know that God is on my side! I didn’t leave so much as God mercifully removed me.

      Instead of getting with another one of them I just ran and ran for dear life… I cried and cried…searched on line…Then these AWESOME folks on here took me under their virtual ring. I shall be FOREVER grateful.

      AA was comin in for the kill on my azz…

      I so admire people like you Steve, Massive, Sue & others for being in there in the THICK of that CRACK and for getting OUT!

  24. Steve- OMG – what a post. Thank you so much for writing.

    I agree, it was not instant either for me. It took a few years. But it excelerated once the crack in the wall was there.
    Its interesting what words really express our leaving the cult. Your post brings me back to those days when I was obsessed with blogging every night on my couch on ST and watching LAw & Order SVU in the background LOL!

    Im glad you got out. Im glad I got out too. I just read your post to my husband as well. I guess we truly are not alone. Sometimes I want to go to a meeting and speak my truth again and then just leave. I might go with a mother whose daughter was murdered by an AA guy. A bit of protest work you might say.

    Yes and I do know the brain washing is deep. There are levels to the deprogrammimng. Sometimes I see it in my hubbie. Sometimes I see it everywhere I look. Hollywood is filled with such lies about AA, it will take a few movies and a successful HBO series and a lawsuit or two to AA in NY , a few hundred letters to Judges, A few hundred letters to all our senators, Lawsuits to the Insurance Co for sending someone to AA. But at times it’s exhausting and sad and I talk to women on the phone who are so traumatized…then Rob Zemeckis makes a fucking pro propaganda AA film just as we are making headway.

    I feel you all the way thru the internet in this post and I really appreciate it. I did feel the support on Stinkin thinkin when I was leaving. too 🙂

  25. Yeah the hollywood thing is really disappointing. AA is always presented in a positive light as synonymous with sobriety and they are not even accurate portrayals of meetings, you have to wonder if the people making this stuff have ever actually been to a meeting. I notice they often present meetings as if there is some kind of supervisor their guiding the newcomers to abstinence and you get taught how to be sober. Nothing could be further from the truth. It is a totally unregulated, unsafe free for all that you go to at your own risk. You are just as likely to sit next to charles manson as a kindly wise counsellor. Their is no advice on how to stop drinking. None.

    • Not instant for me either.


      You said, “You are just as likely to sit next to Charles Manson as a kindly, wise counselor.” This is cult anti-cultish in

  26. Hollywood is a million headed snake that harvests your thoughts, alters them to their liking, and then pumps them back into your living room. If Hollywood wants a straight Catholic to go to a pro abortion, anti-gun, gay AA meeting that’s where you are going. Not even a sheep rancher in Montana is safe at Brokeback mountain. We are sheep of people (sheeple), influenced and controlled by the Hollywood propaganda machine. Their ideas become my ideas, I am politically correct, I think I’m free and that’s all that matters. All I have to do is tow their line and show up for my daily dose of fantasy life after my day’s servitude.
    Trust me Massive; they’ll be knocking on your door. They’ll offer you a shot at society’s highest achievement, actress. Just read the fine print; “We reserve the right to use any film we have of you in any way we please, we may also film you without your knowledge”. Don’t buy it, you are living a real life here that truly helps people, plus, in their world there is no room for time with your children. Retain control of your media content, they cannot be trusted.

  27. here are are some other resources if you are leaving or have left AA

    HAMS (Harm Reduction, Abstinence and Moderation Support)

    My Way Out (MWO)

    Moderation Management (MM)

    SMART Recovery (Self Management And Recovery Training)

    Women For Sobriety (WFS)

    SOS (Save Our Selves)


    Rational Recovery (RR)

    • brilliant, I will be checking these out. I can’t really even explain in a nut shell why I left, theres not one particular thing but was just feeling more and more uncomfortable. to be honest my head is a whirlpool of thoughts at the moment. i dare not say anything to the couple of girls that still contact me for fear they will talk me round and say that I feel like this coz I left.

      • dp .. first, what you are feeling is very common. You have been under the brain washing trance of a cult and the only way out is through determination to not go back. For the longest time, I would think about which meeting I was supposed to be at. I went to a meeting or a lunch somewhere almost every day for years. It became a habit unto itself. After 4 years or so, I rarely think of meetings and where I “should be” . I stop in to SMART meetings on occasion because they are positive and focused on behavior change which is something I always can do if I want or need to. I also have a subscription to the 100 Day Challenge and it keeps me pumping along when I need it. The first day of the Challenge is about growing up and getting real – gee, what a concept. 🙂

        To keep my brain from swirling in the early days of leaving AA, I vented on sites like this and forums – there are many and it is very therapeutic to let out the built up steam from being lied to and manipulated by a cult. Let it all out, it will help a lot ! Nobody here knows who you are so go for it !

    • massive,
      Just when i gave up any hope of ever haveing anything with a man again..
      i have a boyfriend now.i have knew him for a few years. but have just got together with him.
      he is very handsom, and good natured. He is an x heroin addict who got clean 9 years ago via another recovery, not AA/NA , he hadn’t been there. He listend to the 13 step video with me last night, and he said he hopes that they get sued.
      He has 2 children a girl and boy. He is single, split from his partner over a year ago. He dont hit women.And he works as a builder.
      He said he id going to get me a television, He couldnt belive that i dont have one. And cant understand why i have been celabate for so long.Well he talked persauded and charmed me out of that one.So i’m no longer an X AA nun.He makes me laugh and i feel somewhat safe with him.I don’t think he would hit me, i hope not. I hope he don’t hurt me, like other men have. I hope he really cares,and isn’t out to use or abuse me.Or be ashamed of being with me.
      its good to see that more people have came to the leaving AA site.leaving AA is growing.And more of the public are finding out about AA. I am glad of those who are in AA,and old timers and sober folk, who are in there,but are for what you and all of us here are doing.Those who are not in denial about AA abuse.And confirm what’s being disclosed here.I will never go back there, but at least because of your work AA will be safer for those in it.

      • already gone- yes thank you for posting this. I saw this when it came out and I use it in my trailer for my upcoming film the 13th step the film. you can watch it on youtube. This reporter is one of the first on a major network to report this is such a way. ” AN AA sponsor”…

  28. When someone is pursuing you all over the place you get to turn around, face them, put your hand out and say “STOP! I do not want you to come any closer to me.”

    I guarantee they will leave you alone. And it’s better done in front of lots of people too.

    I’m serious!

    The whole idea is to get away from this harmful cult anyhow.

      • Really? Good! It tends to have such an adverse affect on these predators too. I don’t know why. I shortly thereafter saw that one turn to wearing a bathrobe, slippers and a cowboy hat- Yes. In public. Became quite the laughing stock. Apparently that is what lurks just under the surface. When it’s exposed in such a direct fashion, it’s really exposed. This is not a joke. Stay far away from AA!

        • And another suddenly started stuttering uncontrollably and at least had the decency to look at the ground and go away. The mildest reaction I’ve seen is excessive blushing with embarrassment and quiet retreat. And that’s because they know what they are doing is wrong!

          • they are very weak people. I interviewed an old timer with 35 years and those were his words.

            Many non violent predators are p**ssy’s. All one has to do is confront and they are cowards.

            Now one has to be careful these days because they are alot of violent dudes in AA now, with no respect for women or young gay men.

    • I agree, in my experience Big book thumpers like to get me by my self when they make there insulting verbal comments, or Idle threats,
      the more and more I read this web site here, the free er I become away from that AA cult I believe anymore that going to that cult for any reason is harmful to ones self, even if it is just for the coffee or a few laughs,
      now I rather just go to a coffee shop or a show or just to the park or even to a religion of some sort,

    • I had a weird experience with an AA greeter. She was a well-intentioned woman who had probably been instructed to give everyone hugs on their way into the meeting. I wasn’t into hugging her, so I very deliberately put my hand out and she plowed right through it and hugged me. It was weird. Awkward love bomb moment.

  29. As Steve wrote some days ago: There is no advice on how to stop drinking (in AA.)

    But that’s not what the ‘Big Book’ or its ‘thumpers’ are about. Even though, when pressed, you’ll likely hear from them, “It always about the (not) drinking.” This is usually not combined with, “More will be revealed.”

    Yes – a stiff arm is a worthy tool to guard off offensive “help-offering” Steppers, But the newbie is more likely to turn and exit the scene. That newbie may be lucky if they do flee! Yet – and this is a concern – even it they do, the endemic “powerlessness” cultural indoctrination may cause (prompt, justify, trigger or just plain provide cover for) a hard, renewed run at drinking. Then, if perchance, in the wake of tragedy, the utterance: “they did the research for me” is the offered help to the remaining, assembled group members. “Better them than me!”

    Dangerous stuff but usually only seen as weird by newcomers.

    Since this is a Leaving AA blog I recommend a stiff arm and a prompt exit. You don’t have to drink. You can overcome the myth that its either AA or drunk !!!

    P.S. And of course, be careful who you hang with outside the rooms!


  30. Thanks e. man…

    I became very frustrated when I soon realized that AA was not really about giving any real information or solid support for one who chose to stop drinking alcohol. Its pure religion. They are just trying to get souls for Bill W.’s god of alcohol.

    And you are so right… they really do rejoice in the deaths of those who do not follow their simple-minded program. If you die, that means their father-god Bill W. is right. You only die IF you choose to believe them. Your beliefe is the ONLY thing that gives their BS any power.

    My sponsors loved to recite, “Some must die so that others may live!”

    And I am supposed to be one who dies. They are praying that I die…waiting for it…waiting for it…

    AA is not about helping anyone…but ensuring that AA goes on. That is it.

    Once a person figures that out, Alca-Oz comes out from behind the curtain, we SEE what IT is and we can start on the road to leaving AA…but even that road has challenges…

    But I prefer TRUTH over clever, slippery, disempowering lies any day.

    It is only by Grace…I escaped.

    I will NEVER go back.

    I’d rather die.

  31. Pingback: If AA meetings are Treatment for their “disease” then why not get some real help? Are these steps really enough? blogger ILLBEFREE says HELL NO! | Leaving AA

  32. Great to see that this and sites like it exist! When I wrote about the dogma and lies of AA in Psychology Today or on I would get berated by bb thumpers. Keep up the good work of letting people know about options! And let’s leave anonymity behind here so we can carry the torch proudly!

  33. this site has help me a lot with the anger that i have towards the people what attend AA, I did not realize that AA carried such rip offs liars and perverts like it does, sponsors what like to record phone conversations just to see what you have and how they can take advantage of you, like they like to get in your house and see what you have I have had my house brook into by AA members years ago, and they would set in the meetings talking about it and considering me to be a outsider, and that they had a good cause,
    when i go to AA meetings now I just do not trust anyone of them, I do tell newcomers that not to trust them at all, if you go, beware, they work in a group and what ever there motives are, they are like a crime group or what, fronting AA as a front,

  34. dumb- they are like a crime group or what, fronting AA as a front,

    Well put! Im happy this site has helped you. It has helped me by just venting and finding a new saner community.

  35. I left for an early train to my dad’s this morning and missed my connection (due to me forgetting my specks ) wish my eye’s were suitable for lazer treatment.

    I wasn’t allowed a later train or refund,so came home.
    I shall try to get a seat for the Friday long distance bus instead.

    Spent some time reading posts. Forgot i had posted here,about Henry.
    after reading posts here i realise AA was worse than i thought it was.
    People here have lost a lot of money. I was skint when i went to AA,and i still am.
    Maby thats a good thing. That i went there with no money.

    theres times i gave money but only small amounts only once i wanted it back other times,i gave without wanting it returned.
    I didnt get it back, i didnt make no fuss about it ,though i did feel angry at the time.

    i really needed it back for food so i could eat.

    I don’t think theres anything wrong with giveing a gift and not wanting anything back i did the same pre AA at times.

    But Pre AA my life had taught me to be carefull who i gave to when and how often how much.

    However after what i have read along with my own expieriences in AA,
    It seems to me AA makes us into MUGS!

    If i had been well off i would have given my entire wealth away with the brain changes they made in me.

    thinking it was spiritual or something. Thinking i dont deserve to have money.
    or hopeing it would please them and they may like or accept me more if i did this.
    or that it was part of the programme to do this.Or to show them i didnt care about money.

    I recall being told to give without wanting back…
    Like i had never gave anyone anything without wanting it back pre AA , and was being taught how to by AA .

    I often gave material things away Pre AA-without looking for it back and without speaking of it to anyone.
    My Mother taught me to share, the mormons did the same and taught me not to speak of good deeds to others.
    i was a hippie type (That’s the real me ..mormons AA and other religouns have changed me somewhat. but the real me is a hippie type..not the full blown thing i was too young and in Uk so missed Woodstock..LOL) and i shared my resourses with others.
    However -when a free loader,a rip off con person came into my life..i said something
    about it .At times that ment i took a beating but i tryed to stop them free loading.

    i wouldnt have let anyone rip me off without saying anything.
    When i needed the money back for for food.

    i recall early days in AA i was giveing them presents to try and show them i was gratefull for any thing they did for me.
    What they had did up to that point was a couple of them had gave me a lift
    that i didnt ask for they insisted and they didnt drive me far.They kept saying i wasnt gratefull to them.So i gave them presents.

    I was given a lift by a non AA member recently and he couldnt understand why i was so thankfull to him.

    I dont think AA made me humble i think it made me grovelling at times.

    I’m not concerned with humbleness anymore. And i’m begining to believe that im deservant of haveing money.
    i dont mean great ritches but enough so i don’t have to worry.

    I find it hard to take in ,the posts about the rip off merchants in AA.
    There are some huge financial losses.
    I hope the people who did this get there just deserts.
    I’m sorry this has happened to people.

  36. I remember in my early days of going to NA, I was real excited about the people I met, they were the first people I have ever met what would pay any attention to me at all, they ask me out for coffee, and go to bars with them, and go to strip clubs, they had there own inner circle what included the people that they liked and wanted to see get clean and sober, if they did not like you they would give you a lot of shit and make you feel unconfontable, to be there, I was once accepted there, and I had a few friends that I could call on, one friend always wanted me to give a lot of money to NA and to buy his stuff from him, I had a realitionship what failed and then I was labeled as a preditor what prayed on people, but truly I was the one who was preyed on, I was not a sex person at all the realitionship that I had was a real pervert, it seemed like the whole group was perverts, I remember giving about a hundred dollars a week to the NA group that I went to, this was in the 1980s, no longer am I accepted at NA or AA I am considered to be a non alcoholic and a addict.
    thank god for this message board, I feel a lot more secure now,
    I think it is about time AA and NA be exposed to the public

    • DuAAmember,

      Your post is magic.

      It was similar from me in NA.After a few years in AA,i was glad of NA comming along.The hugs got me in. My god did i need a hug by that time.
      Thought they had liked and accepted me. Also invited along a few times for coffee. meals and other things.
      They seemed to want me as friends.
      They also had an inner circle i wasnt part of.

      After a while they made me feel like my guts were being ripped out.
      And also did lots of things to make me feel uncomfortable.
      I also was not accepted in the end by AA or NA as being one of them


      I didnt have a relationship in AA or NA.
      However i get where your comming from around this.
      To me theres a big differance in praying on people for sex, and haveing a relationship.

      I was taken to SLAA after AA NA.
      At the time i had been celabate for years in 12 step fellowships.
      Prior to AA NA SLAA-
      i did not run around looking for sex and could do without it.
      My relationship problems have been more to do with picking the wrong men ..or did they pick me.
      Takeing too much shit off them–violence financial mental emotional abuse.
      And fear ..I found it hard to leave men i should have left..

      One of my X husbands was a sex addict..thats all i got from SLAA
      realising one of my X partners from long ago past was a sex addict..
      A Proper pervert.
      So i get where your comming from.


    I have been reading CULTS IN OUR MIDST recovering form. Havent got the book yet,
    theres so many book i want to read.

    when i first left AA i watched a film Marcy martha mable may,
    It reminded me of AA .
    When i was young i was recruted into the mormons, it was difficult to leave them
    and i had backlash problems after i left,
    when i was fished years later into AA, it reminded me of the mormons.
    It has been far harder to leave AA and i have more back lash problems
    around AA.
    The fact i was a hippie type and the cults i have been in, when i watched that film it really moved me.
    I’m now dealing with “You must be stupid to get into cults ” thing.
    being in touch with others who got away helps.

    • Hi Sally,

      I have read about cults recently too. It has helped me to validate my feelings about AA and to take a step back and see the people in AA in a more objective light.
      Please do not blame yourself for getting into the cults. They have extraordinarily powerful mind control tactics – that’s why we get caught in them. For someone who is scared of losing a lot because of an addiction, the cult just needs to hook into that fear and magnify it into ‘you’re going to die’ and a lot of people will submit to mind control.
      The great thing is that now we are reading about cult characteristics and AA can lose its power over us. 🙂

      • Brillando,
        Thanks again for your sound like a wise person inteligent.
        I was very vunrable both times i got into cults.
        At first it seems like a good thing to do. I needed help but i went to the wrong places for it.
        When i first went to AA i was in a pcycosis, not sure how to spell that.
        I was also in a state of severe trauma. I had no family round me. Just my children who were young.
        MY Mother died years ago my Father lived many miles away in Scotland i live in England.My sister in london im in north.
        I had also lost contact with my Dad and sister.
        I was too ill at that time to work physicaly and mentally.
        I had no money.
        I have never been well off, financialy secure.
        I was single .
        Pre AA i did have partners been married twice.
        And I have worked on and off since i was 14. however low payed work.
        But at time of AA And at time of mormons both times i was in a bad place.
        They made it sound like i had to do it had no choice
        and also guilt trips felt i had to make up to people for wrongs.
        And made me think i was a terrable person and had to change and only that could chnage me.
        They made me think i would die in a pit of alchohol if i didnt go there and do steps.
        They also made me think i would have a wonderfull happy life if i did it.
        Most of all they put more fear into an already fearfull person.
        And then they isolated me. made me need them.
        I’m glad i got away and i don’t feel scared of them any more.
        Im not as vunrable now as i was then.I kept in contact with outside help and at times have recieved counselling from non 12 step people.This has helped me.
        and im modarating my alcohol use.
        that in itself say’s something. i been okay with my drinking for a year now.
        If i was an alcoholic i wouldnt be able to modarate.
        Im glad someone is makeing a film about AA.
        Im glad for this web site.

  38. yes it is true, the people what go to the groups looking for sobriety usually fined the bitter end,
    I have known many people what have been hurt by this cult, sadly they can get by and can go unknown, Christian churches just think AA NA is a great deal. and since NA AA does not charge any money for there cult, there is nothing what can be done about it at all,
    they always say anonymous program.
    we are all sick people, what are addicts, sex is a part of the disease,
    I think more and more young people are not buying in to this AA cult shit,
    keep up the good work on the message board, write about your experiences,
    even if some one on here gets pissed off well that is tough shit,

  39. Its been good to read the posts. Dumb AA member im glad of your sense of humour i lost mine its comming off get that hot bath now.
    It was a long journey bus up to Scotland and train back.
    But Good to see my Father, and the hills and glens.

  40. The first day, yes the first day I walked into Aa I started talking to a woman sitting next to me immediately shared part of her life and told me that she was looking to work again (she’s must be at least 65 with about 30 years sobriety) so I asked what she did and what kind of job she was looking for. She said she taught college and wanted to get back in the scene. So I felt sorry for her and not only I gave her my number and email (which has my full name) but also my husband’s email (also full name) to help her send her CV. In less than ten minutes I had given major personal information to a complete stranger. I told her it was my first meeting and she kind of apologized for throwing me all this job drama on me but said that I seemed like a nice person and that she was sure I didn’t mind because I was so prompt in helping her. I replied with a shy: No problem, it’s my pleasure. She then started calling me constantly to ask if my husband had found a job for her and I had to brush her off saying that once she had sent her CV it was out of my hands. Not even my husband realizes what a stupid thing I did! On my first day I was already put into a very uncomfortable situation… losers! and a cult!

  41. (snip) so I deleted this sick idiots link but Im leaving this part here for the world to see. massive

    Heya now i am initially in this article. I uncovered that board and that i in finding It helpful & the idea forced me to be out a great deal. I’m hoping offer something returning and support people just like you helped me personally.

  42. Hi!
    I dont know if its the right place to post this, but I´ve been wondering if some of you have or have had personal safety concerns upon leaving AA? If you did, how did you address those?

    I realized just how apprehensive I have become when a male friend came to visit. He is leaving too after several years in the programme, a link to orange-papers became the point of no return 🙂 He´s a mate, theres nothing going on and he has never given any reason for me not to trust him. Yet I hid a bottle of maze in the couch and placed my pepper spray in the hall cupboard to grab-just in case he too, turned into an abuser. Its like this all the time and I feel like a sitting duck waiting for something bad to happen without having a rational idea of why it should. Nobody knows about the exit or speaking out against AA, still theres this fear of being punished or retaliated against as a consequence. My mate know these people and what they are capable of so he warned me to be VERY careful. That didnt exactly help me sleep better though he meant well. I changed to a new unlisted tlf. nr., moved to an unlisted address and defriended all AA´s but two on Facebook., that should suffice but….still dont feel safe. Thoughts? Anyone?

    • Most of your fear is probably unwarranted, but that doesn’t mean not to be careful. First, unless someone has actually left AA and is convinced AA is dangerous and ineffective, I wouldn’t talk to anyone about your AA position if they still go to meetings. I believe their motives can change in an instant and they can share hurtful and infantile info in a heartbeat. Second, outside of work, spend as much time as possible in crowds of normal people. Things like meetups and volunteer work increase the amount of time you are not by yourself. Slowly drift into normal life around normal people – there is a higher degree of safety there. Being alone a lot is not a good thing anyway.

      In essence, just get on with life. The AA population really is small and the more you are around others, the less you will see of them and it will all fade away behind you. I rarely see AA people anymore and if I do all I have to do is say hello, chat about inane stuff, wish them well and move on, because, ohp, I’m in a hurry. No vitriol or anti-aa preaching, just a quick encounter with another person. AA is so full of churn they have no idea what I am doing anyway. Unless you are under a threat of physical harm from someone, it all just goes away over time. They simply forget about you.

  43. Hello Free Agent, I have not been afraid for my physical safety but I have been afraid for my psychological safety – I was glad to have moved from the town where I spent the majority of my AA years. It was a small town, very sick, and it was impossible not to run into a rabid-dog stepper. So I was glad to leave.


  44. It is a sad state of affairs.I truly believeAA is a place for criminals and predators to be safely protected and sheltered, so that they can pretend to be normalfunctioning peoplewhile they are in fact targeting their next victim.AA is in reality a meeting place for , largely,dangerous psychopathsthat

  45. The psychological safety that’s good. Living in a good environment. Its so hard to find the right people. The harm people cause. I was punished for trying to stop drinking and weed. I just did not find people who want me to have a good life. Then you see people who try to help and are punished to. Then the people who need to be punished never are. I try to live a good life I make some mistakes and that all people talk about. In the 12 steps groups people just tore me down. Taking my inventory. All I can say is with the right people in my life I could of had a good life. I believe that. I sure believe if you don’t receive good results. Find some thing new. I sure don’t write to good. Now that’s a sign that I did not find people to help. When I start going to AA it was the only thing that was around. I sure young people don’t have the result I received. I look back at my life and am just disappointed at the results. I can’t get my life back.Leaving the 12 step groups is just a way of trying to salvage what’s left of it. The people in the 12 step meeting sure did more harm than good.

    • Thanks Mark. The reality is that anything a person wants or needs is out there somewhere. The trick is defining what you want and then creating a plan around finding help and doing it. There is free online learning for everything these days. From how to write to advanced mathematics and everything in between. I have been on a search for many years to answer why I don’t match my intentions with my behavior more regularly. In the end, I am the one to blame for not creating goals for myself and then creating a plan of action to achieve those goals and then doing the plan on a regular basis. I just have to execute the plan more often than not to move forward. Every little bit of forward movement helps, even if it is only a small amount.

      Just found this today, maybe it will help you .

      Just coming here and writing what you did could be a beginning.

      • Thanks a lot, both of you.

        Mark, I have left AA less than a year ago and although I’m delighted to have escaped that insanity, I’m still haunted by regret over how much time I wasted there and that I will never get it back. I’ve gone through a pretty melancholic few days ruminating over those lost years. I have a huge gap in my CV where I’ve been unemployed. I am having to re-invent myself so as to get a position that is appropriate to my talents. It’s about time I did myself some justice. I refuse to take a Mc job and bow down and be forever grateful that I’ve a job as many in AA would wish me to. At least I’m fortunate that I escaped the horrors of been raped or directly ripped-off financially while there.

        SPJ’s tip about learning via the web is an excellent and inspired idea. I have come across a site on how to answer common interview questions – good for me at least as I make for a very nervous interviewee and this may improve me.

        Here’s the link: .

        There is also something known as a SWOT analysis. It’s a technique used in business to identify the strengths, weaknesses, opportunities and threats that lie in the path of achieving the goal (s) of the business. It can be adapted to one’s personal goals, too.

        • Paul- you wrote I’m still haunted by regret over how much time I wasted there and that I will never get it back. I’ve gone through a pretty melancholic few days ruminating over those lost years.

          I felt like that on and off the first year I left. I cried a lot about the years wasted. 🙁 It got better. ..with time. and being more involved with other things ….aka Life…making a Film to expose AA…

          Making radio shows to express how I was feeling and reading a ton on non 12 step books written by professionals and lay persons Bios and memoirs.

          • Thanks Massive for the encouragement.

            I went to a SMART group today and the facilitator was dealing with building & developing motivation. It’s recommended that I write down my hierarchy of values – what I value most, etc. And to ask myself the following questions. What do I want.? How am I going about realising what I want? How do I feel right now about doing this?

            I was then hit with the difference between the SMART approach to writing down your needs, wants, dreams & aspirations which is very liberating to the approach of writing down your faults, defects or whatever that’s found right throughout the 12 steps which condemns one self. And of course there are many sponsors who get their sponsees to do the steps over & over again ostensibly to make them well but making them more and more unwell in the process. The solution offered by the twelve steps is far worse than the problem. Iatrogenic is the definition for such a state, I do believe.

            As for checking out non-12 step sources, I’ve ordered that book recover and stop thinking like an addict and I’m waiting impatiently for it to arrive. The Orange Papers, I’m sure you know, captures to a tee the utter insanity of that cult.

            I spent a lovely few days with my sister a couple of weeks ago. She asked me was I still in AA? (She is not a stepper thankfully) I told her no as I could not abide by what it effectively regards alcoholism as a condition that’s manifested as a personality problem and the personality now needs to be moulded to the terms of a programme in order for recovery to take hold. She didn’t actually say much to that, but it was clear to her that I had changed and that I credit that with getting the hell out of AA. I am also not engaging with any steppers except as civilly as necessary when it comes to day to day affairs. I’m busy training and looking for work, so at least my time is been occupied meaningfully.

            After all that, I will get around to listen to your radio show. Thanks for all your work. It’s invaluable and it will bear fruit. When, I don’t know. But it will. No question about it.

  46. I am an alcoholic.I entered treatment in March of this year 2015.Started going AA.I had lost nearly everything due to drinking.There was one member who always spoke up in the meetings and sounded sincere.He was always volunteering to be a sponsor so I asked him to sponsor me.Luckily I was blessed with an income and made the mistake of telling him after that all he talked about was he was always short of money.Me being new to the AA program I put my trust in him because he was my sponsor.Excuses like his wife was in the hospital,his electric,water,gas was going to be turned off,property taxes delinquent,phone is going to be shut off,car broke down,had no money for food,no money for gas.Funny when I first met him he said he made 25 dollars an hour wich is alot for this part of the country.Anyway after about 4 months and over 3 thousand dollars I had given him in loans.I dropped him as a sponsor.I have asked for repayment and he avoids me.Also in the rooms ot AA I have wittnessed a lot of 13 stepping,sexual predators not just males either.Females just as much,I have also had females go after me.Much of the people only go there for gossip and spread more gossip. I’m not empressed with AA

    • Go to the police about your sponsor. Simple as that. He has probably done it to other newcomers and they may already have a file on him. He is clearly a predator and you are a victim.


      • Librarian
        Thanks for the advice,I could go on and on about whats happenen to me and what I’ve witnessed in AA.I have found that the ones that talk most and credit themselves with there enormous amounts of spirituality are the ones to watch out for.

        • You better believe it. I’ve also realized that the ones who are there all the time are the ones with no jobs and family whom they wish to spend time with.


    • HI Keith and Welcome – Yes its more the $1,200. so it’s not small claims court anymore. I suggest you go to the police about him .

      We know a Guy in LA with 40 years now who owed the guys about $250,000. dollars he Borrowed !!!! He tells them to go write about it when they ask him for their money back.

      Im sory to hear this. You are not alone.

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