Simple Reasons to Leave Alcoholics Anonymous

  1. Sexual harassment, rampant going on in AA for 75 years and still going on by older trusted respected AA men
  2. Rape – going on forever in AA. Rarely are they reported
  3. Murder- By men sent to AA instead of jail.
  4. Indentured servitude (against the law by the 14th amendment) by Clancy and his clones for free honey doos…doing servant type work for free because Clancy or someone sober 20 years is their sponsor. Disgusting!
  5. Children molested by sober men who date sober women
  6. Millions of dollars stolen form innocent trusting AA members by old timer men with slick silver hair and slick silver tongues.
  7. Ancient literature repeated endlessly that corrupts and destroys a healthy ego and self esteem of good men and women who trust that AA is still a good thing
  8. thousands committing suicide because of AA bullying and degrading of members when they “slip” or drink again.
  9. The insanity of reading Chapter 5, The Preamble and the 12 Traditions at every meeting most of which are lies and harmful to ones self worth yet they wont implement Safety measures for youth and teens and women .

Is that enough? Still not sure…visit http://www.expaa.org to read many of them there. www.orange-papers.org
Consider options ;  SMART Recovery & SOS, are non AA, abstinence based programs. There is Marc Kern, Moderation Management, Hams Harm Reduction and Donna Cornett www.Drink Link Moderation. They have online meetings ( SMART has online chat meetings daily and over 600 meetings worldwide. ) Call Steven Slate and St Judes Retreat in NY for contemproary answers. Dr Mary Ellen Barnes and Dr Ed Wilson in California for non 12 step solutions. 

Always thinking outside the box. ALways looking for a refreshing solution that work. I would NEVER send my sons or any friend to ANY 12 STEP PROGRAM.

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136 thoughts on “Simple Reasons to Leave Alcoholics Anonymous

  1. Reasons to leave???
    -AA is a love bombing indoctrination cult.
    -AA is a religious program designed to deceptively get the new member to “see the light” that hides behind disclaimers like “spiritual”.
    -AA denies that any other programs exist or work.
    -AA teaches that jails, institutions, and death are your only options other than their brand of recovery.
    -AA is mind control.
    -AA is a socially charged environment where it is easy for sex offenders to find victims.
    -AA is faith healing not science.
    -AA meetings separate you from your family and society.
    -AA is a secret nepotistic society.
    -Most AA members attend meetings after attaining sobriety for social reasons.
    -AA sponsorship is untrained and unqualified life coaching.
    -AA steps are traps to confuse, trap, and exploit members.
    -AA readings are repetitive hypnotic Neuro-linguistic chanting designed to program members.
    -AA gurus stay for the power and sense of self worth.
    -AA birthday cakes and time are taken as rank and stature in the groups giving long term members power to exploit.
    -Alcoholism in AA is a personal identity that keeps the member in check and under the control of the groups.
    -Alcohol abuse and alcohol dependence are labeled alcoholism in AA; this allows the groups to portray the member as someone who has a deadly progressive disease and not a behavior. Even the AMA labeled alcoholism as a disease at one point so it could be treatable by the insurance industry. The psychological community has entirely different definitions in which the behavior can be corrected and the individual can adopt healthy drinking habits.
    -AA is unregulated and has no check or balances yet the medical and judicial communities support and use it.
    -AA is portrayed as a medical venue.
    -AA is a mutual aid movement.

  2. Reasons to leave???
    -AA is a love bombing indoctrination cult

    I agree for the most part, although AA being a true cult is debatable

    -AA is a religious program designed to deceptively get the new member to “see the light” that hides behind disclaimers like “spiritual”.

    I agree…it is designed to convert one to Christianity in the end

    -AA denies that any other programs exist or work.

    I agree

    -AA teaches that jails, institutions, and death are your only options other than their brand of recovery.

    I agree

    -AA is mind control.

    Yes, it can be, unless someone has a strong mind

    -AA is a socially charged environment where it is easy for sex offenders to find victims.

    I agree

    -AA is faith healing not science.

    I agree, although there are conflicting studies as to its overall efficacy

    -AA meetings separate you from your family and society.

    They can, it depends on how balanced a person is

    -AA is a secret nepotistic society.

    Haven’t seen a lot of that, although membership does seem to span generations for some

    -Most AA members attend meetings after attaining sobriety for social reasons.

    I see nothing wrong with that. Better than socializing at bars

    -AA sponsorship is untrained and unqualified life coaching.

    I agree

    -AA steps are traps to confuse, trap, and exploit members.

    I kind of agree. I see them mostly as tools for religious conversion

    -AA readings are repetitive hypnotic Neuro-linguistic chanting designed to program members.

    I somewhat agree. I see them mainly as junk science and lazy theology.

    -AA gurus stay for the power and sense of self worth.

    I agree.

    -AA birthday cakes and time are taken as rank and stature in the groups giving long term members power to exploit.

    I agree, this does happen.

    -Alcoholism in AA is a personal identity that keeps the member in check and under the control of the groups.

    I agree, but if it keeps one sober, then so be it.

    -Alcohol abuse and alcohol dependence are labeled alcoholism in AA; this allows the groups to portray the member as someone who has a deadly progressive disease and not a behavior. Even the AMA labeled alcoholism as a disease at one point so it could be treatable by the insurance industry. The psychological community has entirely different definitions in which the behavior can be corrected and the individual can adopt healthy drinking habits.

    I agree, but times are changing

    -AA is unregulated and has no check or balances yet the medical and judicial communities support and use it.

    I agree 100%

    -AA is portrayed as a medical venue.

    I agree

    -AA is a mutual aid movement.

    And I think this can be a good thing

    • Mike, here is a start: If AA in NY did this it would improve things.

      1. Have a safety statement read at beginning of every meeting.
      For example: No one should be sexually or financially harassed in any way. We want you to feel safe. If you don’t feel safe please tell the secretary or a trusted friend.

      2. Have a letter sent to every AA service personnel.
      This includes: General Service Rep
      Secretary
      Central Office
      Area chair
      District chairperson
      Delegate

      This should be done I the U.S. and Canada, Australia and the UK. It should state that the safety statement stating they must read safety statement literature before every meeting and that they make an announcement that there is a “zero tolerance policy with sexual harassment.” The Law in the grocery store applies in a meeting.

      3. All General Service Employee’s and Board members and Delegates must go through a Sexual Harassment Training

      4. Every Delegate must hold Sexual & Financial Predator workshops in their areas twice a year and send results to NY where there results will be compiled and solutions implemented. If serious problems have occurred in a district a specified Safety Officer will visit the meeting and hold a business meeting warning members of legal liability if State and Federal Laws are no respected and upheld inside of Alcoholics Anonymous, it’s meetings, conventions and it’s culture.

      5. Address violent behavior & mentally ill people that AA is not professional and can not handle such individuals. Courts and mental health professional may not order or suggest AA and it’s unprofessional setting as a cure all for mentally deranged, violent criminals and sexual perverts and those previously convicted of any type of sexual crime. (This includes the sentencing of sex criminals to SLAO Meetings that are also run by non professionals.

      6. Make AA Safer Literature must be on the walls at every meeting clearly stating zero tolerance for sexual harassment including 13 stepping.

      7. Minors are not permitted at meetings under the age of 18.

      8. Until the above rule is implemented the following will be enforced. Under age minors and convicted sex offenders may not attend the same meeting.

      9. All sponsors & secretaries must have background checks and can not be convicted felons and may never be alone with under age minors.

      10. AA World Service must create special meetings for minors to attend with same rules as Ala Anon & Al Ateen in regards to background checks etc.

      11. At the start of every meeting a liability announcement is made that no member may give ANY advice on any medications of any kind. From a single aspirin for a headache, a pain medicine for after surgery or a psych med for mental illness or depression. It is a legal liability and any member could be sued and AA in NY may be held liable.

      • I remember seeing under 18 kids at AA, it scared me to death. My sponsor was working with one of them, I made damn sure he was including the minors parents in his “counseling”.
        Still it was as creepy as a 30 year old with all the answers at a young peoples meeting!

        • That was the right thing to do anon. I feel strongly about the abuse going on to minor teens and children by 12 steppers. It breaks my heart that nothing has changed yet in AA or NA to protect them.

          Thanks for doing what you could!

        • anon- sad situation.

          This is a huge problem and one that can be addressed soon.

          The FBI and Federal Marshalls can get involved if the right people come forward and in droves.

          Paul C. letter as a Board member was really addressing this and AA made him wait a year to read it to the board and then they did nothing. They are liable. Right now.

          I think Anti D found it on the internet just waiting to be found. ANd then it got posted on ST and so forth.

          • I saw at AA a 34 year old having sex/relationship with a 17 year old. One time I saw him pull her hair, take a cigarette out of her hand and stamp it on the ground and say to her ” I am going to F you in the a$$ later for that..” He did not see me lurking in the shadows. I stepped out and he immediately stopped what he was doing. I told the Manager of the club and called both of her parents. She was staying with her mother who was also in Program and ALLOWED this guy to have sex with her at her apartment and he was calling her ” MOM” ! The Dad took her to live with him, she dumped the guy and he ran off and relapsed on Heroin….I still regret not calling the police at the time. However, she is safer now as I did something. I was to early in recovery to know what to do, so I did what I thought was right and told her parents. This guy also has friends about the same age and they are always running the young peoples meetings and “dating” these girls. I find it disturbing, but other than bringing Safer AA into the meetings I am not sure what else stops this. I have just avoided the whole thing as I hit my Max on tolerance and being around this and it is just too disturbing and I am not effective in that state, in my life or to help others. I don’t know what else to say.

          • Panda2- Good going! It is nice to hear that some people are trying to do something. It seems such taboo to call parents. I have done it though. I think it is an adults responsibility to inform parents so they can take the proper measures, in the event you are concerned about a minor. Plus it can go beyond that even. A fifty year old Mom or Aunt would want to know if their adult child or nephew is in serious trouble. Family cannot do anything once they are six feet under.

            But it is all too common.

          • Panda 2 OMG Glad you took that action. WHat city did that happen in? One idea would be to form an alliance with the police and ask one to come with you/I . Then you and the police could make a warning announcement that we know something is going on that is illegal. Or get them to come undercover. This was an idea told to me by another blogger.

      • @massive

        I agree with your suggestions. A more realistic approach in my mind would be to have meetings in which anyone on parole or probation, including those on the sex offender list, not be allowed in certain meetings. This rule could be clearly stated on meeting lists, and would provide at least some level of safety to those members who are more vulnerable. How it would be enforced is another matter entirely.

        • Mike- The courts could just stop mandating any meetings other than the ones they create. Many who are mandated are also under some government paid drug program or third party and have to take pee tests etc. Just leave it at that. Until there are enough secular options and segregated meetings for criminals the courts should just cease mandating perion any meetings.

  3. I went to a meeting but had to leave, I felt unsafe. A few of the men were sharing about how they came to AA by way of the courts because they had beaten other men and women while drunk. I’m not too comfortable with people who are proud of being able to win a fight and happy to share it in public.
    As for my moderation, I am feeling less and less like drinking frequently. I do not want to end up in the company of hurtful people. I also do not want to end up being forced to attend meetings with people who would marginalize my experience because it does not conform to theirs. At this point I feel the responsible thing to do would be to reserve alcohol use as a considerable reward after completing a task or in the shadow of celebration. For me AA has become potentially as dangerous as irresponsible drinking.

    • anon- AA is more and more being filled with court mandated men and women. More men for sure. One night about 3 years ago in my old womens meeting and younger women started telling a story about an old roomate who they found out was a killer. They did nothing. Me and my friend looked at each other across the room and thought OMG who is this women. It was right around when we were doing the work we were doing … Maybe AA will implode on itself!

      As far as your moderation, weren’t you drinking really rarely anyway. A few days then nothing for 10 days?

      Either way you know what you are doing and its been good documenting your experience here. 🙂

      • Hi Massive,
        Yes I am not drinking much at all since my first month when I drank several days in a row. I’m sort of settling into my new natural pattern with drinking, doing it less and less. What I really like to do is feel good; when you have discovered how to feel grrreat without alcohol it becomes counter productive to drink. For me dependence is drinking when I don’t really want to. I BELIEVE that I am now a normal drinker. I will not let my guard down and continue to participate.

    • anon- just curious- did you go to the AA meeting to see old friends, or do you have to go? Or was just curious? It seems like people who have pretty much left, when they go back all that 12 step mantra comes across as very silly.

      AA is becoming more unsafe as more Drug Courts are expanding, and more prisoners are being granted parole sooner to listen the burden on the prison system.

        • It is sad to me that AA being so large could not just be a secular support group, and drop the whole 12 step approuch. It seems to me what people can find helpful is friendship and support. Yet to acquire or keep that in AA they want you to conform to so much crap that so many people just leave. If it was soley just a support group like so many others are, more people I think would benefit.

          • Truly AD,
            The only requirement for membership should be a desire to stop drinking. If you say you are there to moderate some ignorant fellow will say “it won’t work”.
            Shame, it could be so helpful to the afflicted.
            Instead everyone stays to achive the mighty 10 year chip and be a guru.

          • @anti

            That’s exactly how I’m using the program now, purely as a support group. The other night I was leaving a meeting and struck up a conversation with a woman who is a member. of that group. She asked me if I had gotten a sponsor yet. I replied no because my wife, who does not drink, is my best friend and I feel our relationship helps keep me sober. She kind of didn’t respond, but I think she got the message.

          • AntiD,

            I totally agree with what you said: “It is sad to me that AA being so large could not just be a secular support group, and drop the whole 12 step approuch. It seems to me what people can find helpful is friendship and support.”

            This last time in AA (one of man), I went against my better judgement and gave in to the pressure to get a sponsor.

            After a couple months, I told one of the ladys that she nice but very cold. I told her that I needed a friend. The woman snapped at me and said; SHE IS NOT YOUR FRIEND, SHE IS YOUR SPONSOR.Her job is to guide you through the steps. Needless to say, I did not like it.

            I have a lot to say about the emphasis on time not being for everyone. However, I am late for work and DONT HAVE THE TIME.
            🙂

          • I would also like to say that some people who come to AA, may have need for some parental type discipline; but I didnt.
            I was 56 yr old woman this time, who had been living on my own for almost 40yrs. I didnt need someone to tell me to make my bed and say my prayers. This is another problem with treating everyone the same.

          • Anon,

            I went to mostly women’s meeting’s this last time.
            IMO, after decades of going in and out of AA; the women are more controlling and very pushy. If you dont care to go along with the group, your not a part of click. I didnt mind though; I had very good, supportive friends and did not need their acceptance. Some of us do mature, even though we drank.

          • ANTI D – True. Some people really just like the support without the steps and dogma.

            I cant take any of it anymore. I dont want their kind of support. They are very judgmental as a whole.

          • 100% agree!!!! That would also remove a lot of the subconscious judgement of one another that starts happening even when you don’t realize it, based on perceptions of “working a good program”, which often means making sure no one knows you are suffering emotionally until you go ahead and blow your brains out.

          • WOW BCM! That’s the most profound AA share I have heard in a while.
            “working a good program, which often means making sure no one knows you are suffering emotionally until you go ahead and blow your brains out.”

          • @ Border Collie- Exactly- It would also have the that effect in referse, where the member would not be so hard on themselves if they were keeping up and doing the steps right etc.

            If you looke at support in general terms, there are actually many of them. There are support groups family members of suicide victims, cancer survivors, children who have lost parents in war, parents of kids with ADHD, the list goes on and on. These are NOT 12 step, but they are support groups in the traditional sense. Not the perverted Mind F*&^% of AA and NA.

          • Yes!! Absolutely. That’s exactly what is so insane about AA. People would benefit from a non religious support group with no steps, no sponsors, no cakes, no hierarchy, no life time sentence, no disease, no spiritual awakening needed, no recruitment, no confessions, no labels, no shame and guilt, no counting if you don’t want to, no revering any “big book”, bible or cult leader of any kind, no faith healing, no slogans, no “keep coming back it works if you work it”, no prayer before or after meeting, no spiritual malady, no court involvement, no homeless people hanging out and eating. It’s honestly a prodigious shame that AA has just taken off like a runaway roller coaster and we are now dealing with a “The Emperor Has No Clothes” phenomenon. I for one needed help and support without a whole big ole plate of cult bullshit. And when we are at our lowest, we are so vulnerable and easy targets for those who prey on this with pseudo love bombing. Great point. Thank you Massive for this site!

        • @anon,

          I agree that my maturity and intellect did not fly out the window (contrary to the AA mantra that we pick up right where we left off), but…my cognitive facilities definitely were dulled due to the sleep disruptions alcohol caused. I also lost a lot of my ability to control my temper, even over trifles.

          • Mike,
            I have noticed cognitive dulling even with extreme moderation and will be slowing my consumption as dulling is too high a cost considering the benefit of drinking.

          • I completely agree that alcohol will dull your cognitive facilities. Those cognitive skills improved when I stopped abusing alcohol. However, I personally felt like the confusion resulting from what was said in AA, interfered with further improving my cognitive abilities. In fact I am quite certain it did.

          • Interesting theory Sue, I never thought of AA as a dumbing down but it certainly makes sense. I do remember thinking how impossible the steps were while I tried every imaginable method of completing them. I did Big Book columns, answered the questions in the 12×12, Alanon blueprint for progress, Etc.

          • Mike- im responding to the post above about you going to a meeting and the woman asking if you had a sponsor. When did AA members get so nosy and asking those questions in such a FFFF up way, like they are your parents?

            Great response Mike!

      • @Massive- not suggesting AA is a good place to get proper support. Far, Far from it! It is way to dangerous. But in an ideal world, it would be great if the courts stop mandating, AA had rules and protected members and they dropped the whole 12 step and religious dogma. Because some risk their lives, sometimes unknowingly to socialize. Then they often feel so betrayed by those they thought were their friends but really were not. Sometimes they dont make it out alive or are sexually assaulted etc.

        • Being involved with AA made me feel infantile. I think it has that affect on others. How then does one protect themselves in a recovery group that promotes the idea that your in a safe place now and know one will take advantage of you “in any way”. That is the way I saw it and I dont think thats changed.

          I was never a victim of any criminal behavior. How in a vulnerable position I protected myself, I dont know; yet I can certainly see how many are fooled and loose trust in their own instincts.

        • AA will never change. Even when forced by lawsuits. They are too stubborn and they think they are above the law.

          They think they are better then me and you.

          • Well I am betting they WILL be MANDATED to change and be held accountable, much like the Churches , Boy Scouts etc.

            We are seeing a flood of more news stories than ever before about the crimes being committed by AA/NA members or the Felons being mandated. Those are just scratching the surface. If we actually had people sitting in courthouses listening to sentences handed down across the country, the amount of stories would go through the roof.

            There will be change- it is just a matter of time.

  4. @anon,

    Here’s an example of how even moderate drinking started getting me worried about cognitive decline. A few months into my moderation I was asked to obtain financial certification as part of my career development at work. This required passing 2 challenging exams. The first exam was not too bad and I found that I could balance my drinking and studying. I passed the first time.

    The second exam almost a year later was a beast to study for. Unlike the first exam, it dealt with complex vignettes which demanded that one grasp abstract financial topics in order to arrive at an answer. (the first one was basically a memory exercise). Anyway, I found that my dulled senses were very much getting in the way of my potential for succeeding, as evidenced by my poor performance in the practice exercises.

    So I went and stayed ABS 3 months leading up the exam, started on heavy vitamin B, studied my a** off and managed to pass it this past April. I have been ABS since then. I honestly don’t think I would have passed even if I moderated. Now with 10 months ABS I am realizing how much my cognitive behavior has rebounded. A lot of this has to do with a good 8 – 9 hours sleep a night, along with health eating and supplements. The alcohol very much screwed with the good sleep.

    All in all I feel that ABS is best for me based on this experience.

  5. I just completed an advanced science course, it took three years. I would not drink at all during this type of activity. As for now I will allow myself to drink small quantities (one to two ounces) at long intervals (unplanned after sustained ABS periods). Alcohol will be in the background, my thought processes are way too valuable to me to be jeopardized by a behavior that can be changed.

  6. Massive wrote: [Mike- im responding to the post above about you going to a meeting and the woman asking if you had a sponsor. When did AA members get so nosy and asking those questions in such a FFFF up way, like they are your parents?]

    @massive, I also want to mention that I like the woman personally, but not too long ago she was in a nut ward. So it kind of bothers me when people with glaring mental health issues (or those who served time pen or who are unemployable, etc, etc) start trying to give me advice about how to work a program. I’m sorry, but I can’t separate the person from the message.

    My program is simple at this point. Just don’t drink and stay busy doing healthy activities. It’s working just fine so far.

      • Sam,

        I dont see anything wrong with what Mike said.

        Well all I have to say; I never felt so stigmatized and judged inappropriately by strangers (many who seemed clearly unhinged); until I spent time in the rooms of alcoholics anonymous meetings. Not to mention the “WE” factor that is so much a part of the program; where they label you with the same lousy morals and character defects of everyone in the rooms. After all, you didnt get there by accident. How dare you even think that you might be an individual. Now thats judgmental and stigmatizing. It’s such a crock.

  7. mike
    whatever works! I found the “energy” in meetings to be so negative I just couldn’t take it. Long before they opened their mouths, well maybe not that soon…LOL they were very nice ladies, most of them…. then they would read the dishonest literature, then around the room …the chanting ” I am so and so and I am an alcoholic.

    Perhaps Mike it was the longevity I had. It was too many years listening to the bullshit, so that when I finally saw it ,AA for what it is and was, I wanted to vomit.
    The last few months I went to one women’s meeting every other week on purpose. And during that time I got up and went into the coffee room or bathroom for the reading of the BS Chapter 5. If you want to know how myself and a few others really see Chapter 5 and the literature you can listen on my radio show. http://www.blogtalkradio.com/saferecovery. I think those early shows I did were really good, not me, my skills as a radio host were very green then, but you can actually hear me de programming in those first 3 months of the show.

    I did it to give myself a voice. I had alot to say. And it was more to do with the WHOLE program and not just 13 stepping.
    Have a great day!

    I would only go back to a meeting to confront a predator, do activism, or help a woman who was raped or sexually harassed.

  8. that is the reason I will not take active membership in the AA program. because of all the sex perverts what hang around there, In the group I go to. there are all kinds of stories about women what are forced into relationships with men. I think the worse on was back in 1985, there was a women there what was 47 years old, she would talk about her self being a prostitute and going to bed with all her male sponsors, one day she came to the meeting with her leg in a cast and her arm in a cast, and her face all busted up, and she was talking crazy, and later on she killed her self, she accused some one in the AA program what did this to her. there is also a man what came there in 1985 what was a real intimidating man he would pick up women and have sex with them and come back with tape recording of the sex experience and play it to the other men what were there at the AA club, everyone would laugh and then try to pick up on the women there selves, just the other day at a AA group i was attending some man showed me a cellar phone pictures of one of the AA female big book thumpers what was nude having sex with him, it seems like it is getting worse in the AA program when it comes down to sex and 13 step.,

  9. SUE

    I do not travel around the country looking for AA groups I said everywhere I go I always stop at a AA meeting
    because I was taught that I was a Alcholic and addict and alone is bad company. I do not drink or smoke marijana any more but I stick with the first step
    I believe I am a addict and I stay clean and sober AA or no AA the first step is real and i will stick with the clean time date I like staying sober, and clean

      • yea that is right my old sponcer what is dead now died of a over dose of smake told me one time in 1983 that just go to the meetings take what you need do your best and fuck the rest

          • out of all the years i have gone to AA and NA I have never read the book, I have never done a 4th step, I have never done anything there, exapt drink coffee and talk about off the wall subjects,
            I do agree staying sober is the best way I am going to stay sober and clean regardless of what AA says or what this web site says I am not powerless I am going to stay clean and sober because it is better that way I do not have to worry about cops narks getting beatup or being raped I almost got pulled into a car one time while I was drunk, god what horror, I have almost been shot by a gun while I was in a pervert bar, terrible things happen to people what drink and use drugs I almost coaught AIDS one time because i was having sex with strangers while drunk
            I am staying clean and sober regardless of what

    • Why are you on here? We do NOT support step 1 in any sense of the word. In fact that is one of the least liked ones. It sounds like you want to go to meetings, you say it keeps you clean and sober, you say you believe that you are powerless. AA teaches people all kinds of total damaging garbage- does not mean you follow the other lemmings.

      YOU ARE NOT POWERLESS!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now you can say that http://www.leavingaa.com taught you that you are not.

      • look I do not like AA or NA I think they are mean bad people they do not believe in god or anything, they are some weird cult. BUT!!!!!
        alcohol is bad stuff, and drunken driving is bad stuff so is dope, I do not agree with aa at all YOU do not have to be a AA member to know that drinking is bad stuff, and if you like getting drunk and stoned and driving around going to bars and talking to people while you are intoxicated than you stand a better chance at have bad things happen to you, I am not going to drink or use drugs just because I hate the men what go to AA NA, IF you tell people what come to this site, to drink than you are a enemy of the people what have drinking problems as well as drugs,

        DO NOT DRINK OR USE DRUGS JUST BECAUSE YOU HATE AA NA

        drinking causes drunkenness and drug causes addiction what equals to sexual diseases, assaults, jails, police, losing all of your money, sleeping with guys you do not know, getting put in the hospital

        for gods sake do not drink or use drugs

        • Daamember,

          I think you are powerless over the sinful, godless cult. You dont like it but you cant stop. Do you think that you have replaced one addiction with another. The majority of us here; Have Not. Start a support group for people like yourself. Possibly look into some professional therapy. There are low to no cost options out there. I found a way to do that for a year, with no funds to pay at the time. You seem extremely confused. AA can do that to people. Good luck, thats the best advice I can offer.

  10. Hey- just to speak up for those who have left and moderate successfully like anon…everyone who once had a problem, does not still have a problem.

    Stanton Peele says that …Most people after decades when they return to moderate drinking , can do it.
    You could equally go to a Smart Recovery meeting and learn some actual life skills and be around a better quality of people.

    You do seem a bit brainwashed. I can understand you want to be here because we don’t like AA anymore and you don’t but you still go ….HUH? Your life is then still consumed by fear. You are being programmed every time to listen to Chapter 5, the 12 Traditions and the lies filled in the Preamble. Never mind the negative droning on and on about their past and how powerless they are.

    • Today, now that I am drinking moderately with the use of life skills, I truly have the life of my dreams.
      I am grateful that I outgrew AA and was able to escape. It took years to deprogram from the brainwashing. Today I don’t deny myself anything; God, family, friends, drinking, AA, and science are all part of my life. I am open minded and willing to contemplate your points of view and opinions while refraining from forcing mine on you.
      I am not powerless or broken, I am whole.
      I was in AA for 15 years as a true believer in cult like fashion. I could not speak without using programming. Sure I was successful; however I was not successful in mainstream society. The groups owned me, I was in bondage.

  11. Please let anti-AA people know that our first Anti-AA Conference Call (AAACC) is on Sunday Jan. 20 at 8pm EST 5pm PST 7pm CST & 1am GMT

    There is also a chatroom on the conference call info site if anyone here would like to chat real time. It is ONLY for anti-AA supporters and not a place to debate and argue with steppers who ought rather be in a meeting than on our call. (But you know how life-less some of them can be…)

    Anyway…

    I do not really like the name “Anti-AA” because it has a bit of a negative vibe…Still, I do not feel our purpose is a “negative” one, but I think it will make it easier for people to find, identify and for us to correct those who come to the call and do not belong there…

    The name “Anti-AA” ought to make it crystal clear that no pro-AA people are welcome…Because they are SO NOT!

    No one comes onto AA calls arguing with them. They are allowed to “fellowship” in peace. We must be allowed to Empower In Peace…

    In bringing this together all feedback from real members of Leaving AA is very welcomed and sought… As I still do not know if this call is going to …for lack of a better word “work” out the way I invision…

    Might it be opening a Pandora’s Box of sorts? I don’t know really.

    I know this Cause needs more Connection, Communication and Continuity. AA has those things. That is why it is so far reaching and has such longevity—even if it is in a slow and steady decline.

    Much of AA’s strength is in the ability of its members to communicate, network and encourage one another. We need to hone that same energy if we are to raise awareness of alternatives to AA…and of abuse… Also to raise funds and support for cases like Karla Brada’s…

    I am convinced that if more people KNEW there would be more support.

    Then if each of us just did our one or two pet projects for the cause…it would grow.

    This my friends, is how the American Abolitionists freed the slaves…

    And yes, I do think it is that serious. Women, children and vulnerable people are being harmed…sometimes fatally. Our government and court system is complicit in the harm that is being done. How dare this blatant disregard for American Constitutional Rights just go on!

    Is it due to sheer IGNORANCE or is there something quite more perniciously wicked going on here? In the end, most corrupt machinations are fed by MONEY… & POWER.

    The people who are charged and elected to protect our rights KNOW that this is going on. How dare they allow this?

    How dare they sit our daughters and sons in rooms that they FORCE mandated violent criminals, rapists, felons and molesters to go to?

    How dare churches be left in the dark as to who exactly they are allowing to meet on church grounds?

    How dare people be allowed to bully, molest, torture, humiliate, extort, rape and kill other people simply because they are under the ostensible cover of Alcoholics Anonymous?

    So, when one steps into an AA meeting…one is no longer in America; Is that the situation?

    I dare say it seems so.

    Our job is only to let America KNOW what is going on. They will not stand for it.

    “Public sentiment is everything. With public sentiment, nothing can fail. Without it, nothing can succeed.”
    Abraham Lincoln

    I look SO forward to Massive’s movie which is desperately needed.

    Anyway… Please Share/ Post the Following Info:

    ATTENTION ANTI-AA SUPPORTERS:

    Announcing The Anti-AA Conference Call
    Dial-in line: 1-862-902-0100 Conference code: 329272
    We will be kicking-off the first calls on Sunday Jan. 20, 2013 & Wednesday, Jan. 23, 2013
    @ 8pm EST 5pm PST 7pm CST & 1am GMT

    AAACC is EXCLUSIVELY open to Anti-AA Activists, non-AA-supporters and those actively Leaving AA who seek to support, encourage and empower one another. Mutual Empowerment is Our Core Objective.

    For more information or to enter the AAACC Chat Room go to:
    http://antiaaconferencecall.wix.com/antiaa

  12. AA Has a Very Positive Image…In General!

    http://www.examiner.com/article/the-funerals-are-over-but-the-pain-remains

    No one really gets what it does to members, that the asylum is run by the inmates, our constitutional rights are waived for it’s sake or that felons being sent to AA puts everyone who attends meetings and churches that allow meetings in potential danger.

    No one knows… It is frustrating. HELL! I didn’t know either.

    We must hasten the day when things such as the article here which is dealing with the Newton tragedy, gun violence, mental health and then goes on to see alcohol and substance abuse as a major factor…

    (Good right? Wrong!)

    Then suggests that a solution to the problem might be if insurance companies were to receive some type of credit for sending people to “programs like Alcoholic Anonymous”…

    You see, this writer means well, but Ms. Hardy does not REALLY know what AA is…that is where we have got to come in and turn on the friggin LIGHTS!

    Here is her article:
    http://www.examiner.com/article/the-funerals-are-over-but-the-pain-remains

    • I’m sorry… my thoughts are a bit jangled there…

      I meant to say:

      We must hasten the day when things such as the article here which is dealing with the Newton tragedy, gun violence, mental health alcohol and substance abuse are not seen as maladies for which AA can do anything helpful and benevolent.

      AA still wears a White Hat in our society.

      I wish it were what we thought it was but it’s not.

      SIGH

  13. that is true we are people what are in the hole, stranded sick drunk drugged, sexually abused, physically abused, verbally abused, and emotional abused, AA cult has predators what hang around in there looking for money, pussy, gay sex, slaves, people to abuse and beat up.
    far as I’m concerned AA should be slammed and ridiculed by everyone,

  14. Hi

    I like your post and found it interesting reading. Sexuality is and was a problem in AA.

    I can only speak for myself but when I came into AA I had some pretty terrible thoughts of violence and sexual predation going through my head. I was insane and I knew it

    There was a court case recently of a member who was accused of drugging and sexually assaulting women in his care. There are many who still support this man’s innocence. I am not one of those.

    Many in AA seem to think they are above the law. That I find preposterous.

    I find the AA program, ie, abstinence, de-centering of the ego (narcissism is a disease of the mind closely associated with alcohol abuse amongst other drugs), facing up to the train wreck that was my life including seeking outside help and discussing my innermost feelings with another human being, and being an example to others and carrying the AA message that there is a way, is the easier softer way.

    I also believe that any moral and legal transgressions should be dealt with at the group level. There is no other way. Our group has a policy of safety for all comers, but in particular newcomers from the advances of older members.

    Yes, there are murderers and rapists in AA. There are thieves, wife beaters, child molesters and whatever. I think if they become known to the group they should be outted and asked to leave under trad. 1.

    It is not easy though. We recently had a female newcomer being escorted to meeting by a very chummy male with some length of sobriety under his belt. He is striving for guru status like many of us are driven to do (hi ego, lo self esteem). I don’t like it. She doesn’t come no more. Her chance at sobriety may have been compromised by this members behaviour. Trouble is, nobody knows. These bastards are sneaky.

    I was sexually abused as a child while in the boy scouts, and physically abused by my father and brothers at a Catholic school. I have also been assaulted twice on the streets. What on earth this has to do with AA I have no idea. I drank and abused other drugs because, I believe, and so do researchers at the NAIAA, that my predisposition to alcoholism is genetic in nature. It is a family disease.

    AA’s method is not the only way to get and stay sober. After 36 years of abuse, and many years of philosophical and religious searching (some at post grad level), I see AA as a christian existentialist philosophy and quite hip. It is at the cutting edge of recovery and has inspired many other recovery movements. It is the easier, softer way, and while not perfect, it is up to myself and others, to ensure that the rooms remain safe from predators and violence. This can be a challenge but I equate it to living on the wild west. Are you prepared to put on the marshalls badge so that others may live in peace?

    Regards

    peter j

    • alcohol deoending is not a family disesea. There is no such thing. AA made that shit up. BTW AA has done no research EVER! So why do you repeat such foolery?

      Im glad to hear you are looking out for new womans safety and I am sorry to hear about your childhood abuse but for many early childhood trauma is the cause. There is no addictive gene. More later
      Goodnight .

    • You said: “Sexuality is and was a problem in AA.”

      What?
       Sexuality is not the problem per se. Sexual molestation, rape, violence and other illegal abuses were and are a huge problem in AA.
      • Actually AA is very attractive to those suffering from Narcissistic Personality Disorder. The program and how they relate to one another seems virtually tailor made for some of AA’s most referred and successful disciples. (Based on their self-report of “sober-time”).

      So much of what you say is so directly AA slogan-ized and mind-numbing it really is horribly sickening to read, such as: “being an example to others and carrying the AA message that there is a way, is the easier softer way.
      • Just WHAT are you really saying there? I mean stop, sit back…those words have been repeated over and over again by people alive and dead. You are simply repeating something somebody said. Your believe something somebody said they made up… off of The Old Oxford Group Religion. Have you taken any time to research the origins of the “program” that you feel is so sound and effective?

      Then you state:

      “I also believe that any moral and legal transgressions should be dealt with at the group level.”
      • Just WHAT are you saying there? Come on. Sit back, relax, breathe. Lose your AA mind and come to your Senses! Wake up Man! We live in a land of laws. Your “group” has no power and no authority. How can you self-professed POWERLESS faithful followers possibly handle any moral, MUCH LESS legal transgressions ( i.e. CRIMES)??? The predators are members of the “group” that you are stating should handle these matters.
      • SERIOUSLY? I guarantee you that the predators, rapists and such are in heaven as long as that manner of non-thought persists.

      You say: “The thieves, wife beaters, child molesters and whatever should be ousted and asked to leave.”
      • WHAT? And now I guess you think you just said SOMETHIN; right? How very AA of you. In all actuality, thieves, wife beaters, child molesters should be reported to the police, arrested, go to trial and then off to prison.

      I wish I had more time…
      Softer easier way…

      wow

    • peter,
      one thing i shall give you is that you recognise that there are some long term sober members,playing a part in wrecking others chances of recovery.
      and i’m really sorry about the childhood abuse you went through.

  15. Peter J

    You said; “I find the AA program, ie, abstinence, de-centering of the ego (narcissism is a disease of the mind closely associated with alcohol abuse amongst other drugs)”

    I say; AA is no treatment for narcissistic personality disorder; even potentially harmful. It takes a trained professional to treat such a serious difficult disorder (that is if they even seek help); because there in denial. Have you observed an unusual amount of narcissistic behavior in AA?

    WHAT ARE THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN ALCOHOLISM AND NARCISSISM

    Are all Alcoholics Narcissists? What is the Difference?

    NPD, or narcissistic personality disorder, is a condition where the narcissism is an integral part of the person’s personality. Therefore, drunk or sober, the person will display excessive self-absorption, an over-inflated sense of self, and feel that he deserves special treatment. He will show no empathy for others and will always put his needs above the needs or concerns of everyone else. Always. A person with NPD will exhibit these same characteristics even after years of not drinking. Abstinence does not make them disappear.

    http://thenarcissisticlife.com/what-are-the-differences-between-narcissism-and-alcoholic-selfishness/

  16. i dont want to be a narcistic person. i hope im not one.
    im also wondering if a non narcistic person went to AA
    would AA make them narcistic.

    i was also thinking about things wrote in the big book.
    where it says cant recall it word for word,but it says a real alcoholic
    is useualy a great person when sober,but when drunk turns into
    a no good person. jeckle and hyde..
    but i often heard in AA about dry drunks,of which im classed as one
    or was while i was in AA and sober..

    they said a dry drunk acts in the same way and will do the same things
    sober as what they do when they are drunk..

    if this is so,then a real alcoholic will be okay when sober..
    it says so in there book,while sober hes a nice guy!sees to his responsabilties.
    so then how can he be a dry drunk,,,doing the bad things when sober..
    jeckle and hyde..

    So according to AA an alcohlic is okay a nice guy normal while sober..
    and an alcoholic is bad and will do bad dangerouse irresponsable things when sober..

    can anyone get what im trying to say?

    i was considered to be a nice person by most when i was sober and in AA,
    or so i heard..people said of me shes a nice person…
    but i was also considered to be a dry drunk..

    My own opinion is.,.
    i think im one of the merry drinkers,thats spoken of in the big book.

    • Sally,

      The fact that your questioning whether you are a narcissist or not; is a good sign that you are not. Narcissist are unable to see anything wrong with themselves. They are very self absorbed, manipulative, controlling, crave attn. and recognition etc. I use to think the word meant “self worship” but ive learned its about protection against unconscious but powerful feelings of inadequacy. However, you can not get weak and feel sorry for them; because they lack empathy. To protect myself, I have studied NPD quite a bit and its very complex. They can be very inappropriate and you have to establish personal boundaries. I learned that there are two types of narcissist; covert and overt. Forgive me i could go on and on 🙂
      I do not believe AA can make anyone a narcissist. I do Believe that the condition can get worse in AA.

      Like illbefree said; • Actually AA is very attractive to those suffering from Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

      • thankyou sue,
        i think i have met a lot of theses people,both out of and in AA.
        X partners come to mind.
        its interesting i’m going to do some study around it.
        i’m also going to contact an on line therapist for myself.
        hopefully the last time i will.
        i’m abstinant of everything at present so its a good time for me to talk with one.im working this weekend,and tonight.
        i shall look into it tomorrow.
        i’m so glad i found this leaving AA web site. and i’m thankfull for the posters here.

    • Sally, I don’t think you have anything to worry about. Peter’s post is an exercise in narcissistic rationalization. AA was founded by and for narcissists. I’ve never seen you claim entitlement to some “easier, softer way”. I’ve never seen you try to blame your problems on genetics. I doubt if you ever told predators to find another meeting, (while denying that such a policy is very much an institutional problem). I’ve certainly never seen you claim to be an example for how anyone else should live.

      You saw through the bullshit and got out, as did many others on sites like this. Steppers assured me that AA would become the “easier, softer way” if I stuck with it. The ones who said that were also the phoniest assholes I’ve ever met in my life. There is nothing phony about you Sally. You may have a lot of problems, but narcissism doesn’t seem to be one of them.

      • Rick 42,
        Thankyou.XXXXXXXXXXX
        whoever you are,you have no idea how much your reply has helped me.Rick i was alway’s patient and nice to them that abused me in AA.Even after they abused me.
        PRE AA i met a lot of twisted abuseive people ,partners and friends. My second x husband was the most twisted of them all.The biggest liar i ever met…he is now a speed and canabis addict.he wasnt when i knew him..he was a sex addict then…or at least he fitted the bill in what i heard in slaa meetings..
        There were times in my life PREAA when i could be what is called fiery…i could mouth off at people..and i have hit out at a few…
        PRE AA i was worried about my temper…i sought help preaa and dureing it.
        i do not belive i’m that fiery anymore..
        but there are some people who are still around who knew me then,and think im still like that even though i havent been fiery infront of them..,.
        they bring up things from my past…,
        these people dont realise that im not the same as i was 15 yrs ago.
        these people dont realise that they are fiery themselfs and have been violent themselfs….
        i can still feel angry at times inside…and i raised my voice a couple of times since i left AA.Apart from that i have been patient and assertive.
        but since i can still have angry feelings they make me think i need help…
        i thought i was just a human being..,.and there are good reasons for it when i feel angry..
        I also have problems with involvment,,,sex and love relationships..i stay celabate most of the time.and i get a load of abuse from some people for that..they acuse me of being gay im not they say its becuase no one would want me..they say im a lonley sad old woman..
        and also i lack confidence.So i was going to talk to a therapist again.
        your post made me feel happy,thats becuase you said nice things about me.And you also put my mind at rest about this narcist thing.
        i really am thankfull for your post..i came in from work went to bed but couldnt sleep so came on line.
        thankyou xxxxxxxx
        the kisses arent ment in a bad way…

  17. “Steppers assured me that AA would become the “easier, softer way” if I stuck with it. The ones who said that were also the phoniest assholes I’ve ever met in my life. There is nothing phony about you Sally. You may have a lot of problems, but narcissism doesn’t seem to be one of them.”

    Here! Here!

    I agree Rick42!

    Thanks

    (I never met anyone in my life who is as phony as my ex sponsor. She is very well respected and people think VERY highly of her in the Fellowshit. No one would believe me if I told them how UGLY she can act…really, unless she has done it to them. Phoniest Asshole Ever Award goes to her!)

    Sally I love how you stay open and continue to search for your Truth, your Path and Your Way. I think we should always keep searching, learning and growing. AA people tried to kill that part of us…but we won’t allow it! I pray you find best fit for you in a counselor… A true, real HONEST person who empowers you to find your own best way of being. Ya know?

    A person with Narcissistic Personality Disorder would really not typically question herself or others as to their having the condition. Such a person would likely go on like egoistic-ignorance on fire attempting to prove to the world their SUPERIORITY while desperately working to hide their INFERIORITY…which their GREATEST fear. They are TERRIFIED that they are HORRIBLY FAKE, INFERIOR, HUMAN, FLAWED and they are tormented by fears that anyone should ever, ever find out.

    I remember at the AA tables I used to tell them, “I am way, way too much of an ass hole to sit at these tables trying to cover my flaws. We all have them. We are all human. Why lie?

    I wouldn’t even be sitting at these damned tables telling people my business IF I didn’t know something, something SERIOUS amiss with me… Or I’d be off writing or sketching in my pad at the river…or singing…or playing with my baby nephews & nieces…

    I would NOT be HERE if I was feeling half-way “Okay”!

    All I want to do is treat people like I want to be treated and live a balanced, creative, free and full life.

    Character flaws?

    I have bunches of them…who doesn’t?”

    They would just look at me and SMILE… Cause really, the Truth is the Truth and most human beings respond to it if and when they hear it. Now, people with true Narcissistic Personality Disorder would likely not be able to discern candid, honest words if they conflicted with their fragile self-image…that they know they “invented”…

    Bill W. seems like a classic example of Narcissistic Personality Disorder. He did all that religious study, teaching and re-writing on the Old Oxford Religion text. Was it totally lost on him that he was an adulterous predator, cheating on his “beloved” wife while taking sexual advantage of vulnerable young woman?

    Did he ever honestly ask himself such questions?

    A Narcissistic Personality Disorder sufferer would like NEVER ask such questions. They would have to face a fear greater than their fear of death to do that. Look at the pathological nature demonstrated by Bill W.’s actions. This is the man AA’s read, worship, preach, follow and revere to the point of dedicated their lives, sanity and health to spreading.

    The danger is that real people with real issues that they deserve help with end up with these AA factory-freaks.

    People deserve to get real counselors to help them with any emotional or mental crisis they are dealing with. Going to AA members for help is a very dangerous mistake whether one has a mental disorder or not. AA will make it worse or activate a dormant predisposition in some people I think.

    My 2 cents for Sunday!

    😀

    • Has anyone ever heard of two dynamic women named Jill Stein (Green Shadow Cabinet) and Margaret Flowers (www.PopularResistance.com) ?

      http://www.popularresistance.org/category/educate/

      POWERFUL! The information, resources and education provided on this site could really help us… These are some cool, powerful, AWESOME women…

      I am just now learning about what they have been doing in greater detail.

      BALLZ

      PS: Just when AA-sharks were trying to think it was safe to go back into the water. It’s just an entire new age now. Illegal, fake, lying, predator-filled old “clubs” like this cannot be sustained as they have been.

      The writing is on the meeting walls y’all!

    • illbfree.
      XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXxxx
      i think the people who are trying to tell me im fiery,may be narcists.they dont seem to have any understanding or empathy towards me. And dont seem to realise that they arent perfect themselfs.
      They are a few from PREAA who once knew me but havent saw me in years and years,but have came back into my life.
      your right no one is perfect…pre aa i knew i wasnt pefect,infact i was the opposite of that..pre aa i saw a pycologist,and she asked me to tell her 5 good things about myself and i couldnt think of one.
      PRE AA while i was seeing the pycologist i was in a relationship with a man who was terrable violent to me,and also my second x husband was stalking and harrasing me and doing lots of dam age to me
      and he also punched me in the face at that time.

      Both these men were makeing my life hell and them along with other partners i had qand rapeists i encountered. put me off men,then AA came into my life and really put me off them more..
      i havent been able to really get involved for years.

      i think i shall have to keep away from all the people i knew PRE AA.
      and also keep away from AA.

    • I’llBeFree, I remember how relieved I was when I first discovered anti-AA sites on the internet. It was refreshing to find people who were actually expressing anger. They were actually behaving like mere mortals. What a concept!
      I came to hate “The Promises” as much as anything else about AA. They aren’t just extravagant. They are completely unrealistic and childishly stupid. Their only purpose is to give false hope to newcomers.
      “We will not regret the past…” Seriously? Hell, I have a list of regrets a mile long, and most of them have nothing to do with “alcoholism”. In my opinion, those things are just part of becoming an old human being. Why pretend otherwise just to dupe newcomers?
      I don’t think that current concepts of narcissism existed or were well understood when Bill wrote the big book. He simply projected his symptoms onto his version of the “alcoholic”. He had no clue that’s what he was doing.
      “Did he ever honestly ask himself such questions?” I think he developed some awareness of what he had done over time, and that’s also why he sank into a deep prolonged depression while writing the 12&12. I suspect he had some vague awareness of what a complete fraud he was. Just my theory anyway…

      • Illbefree wrote: “I came to hate “The Promises” as much as anything else about AA. They aren’t just extravagant. They are completely unrealistic and childishly stupid. Their only purpose is to give false hope to newcomers.”

        It sure the hell gave me false hopes, It truly saddens me how one can be manipulated so sneaky-like. 3 years ago when I bought my home, I named it “Mi Casa de las Promesas.” My Home of Promises. And to think (!!!) I actually gave those religious idiots credit for my being ABLE to have a damn home! I went in those roomz and shared how LUCKY I was, and that I OWED it ALL to the fellowship of AA, and how if I had not been a member, then NONE of this would have EVER been possible for me. Someday I shall have to write up my own Rainbow Promises. “Mi Casa de Rainbow Promesas”

        Glad to hear you are okay, Illbefree. 🙂

        • The promises are ridiculous wishful thinking. Passively believing this nonsense has caused many people to waste years of their lives sitting in the cult waiting for a new freedom. Recovery is about getting a grip. Saddest thing is that when inside the cult it is obvious that the promises don’t come true but few will admit to this because to do so is to challenge the whole program. Willingly delusional.

          • “…has caused many people to waste years of their lives sitting in the cult waiting for a new freedom…”

            If you ever felt like you maybe had acquired a smidgen of a new freedom (without having asked permission for such), members will quickly pull you off that pink cloud, while demeaning and shaming you. Because, seriously.. who do you think you are to be feeling anything as precious as Freedom.

        • “Mi Casa de Rainbow Promesas”

          Sounds even more BEAUTIFUL, Meaningful and POWERFUL.

          It is yours.

          It always was, is and shall be.

          AA tries to take credit when we SUCCEED and blame it all on us when we die.

          I hate AA so fn MUCH!

          Thanks Rainbow… I was kinda messed up yesterday when I realized that they actually hurt me deeper than I thought.

        • Rainbow,

          You reminded me of something. One of the many times I returned to aa, i was driving a car that was real old but it was ok car. Shortly after my Dad passed away and i inherited a few bucks; so i bought a nicer old car. My stepper landlady said; ahhhhhh, look what the program has done for you already. Im like my Dad kicked the bucket; thats how l got a better car. Now how screwed up is that. The sad part is, I think she really believed that. OMG (:

          • sue-My stepper landlady said; ahhhhhh, look what the program has done for you already. Im like my Dad kicked the bucket; thats how l got a better car.

            Yea , for some AA fixes everything. We know this is not true.

            • I think the “kick the bucket term” was a bit harsh. It’s just that its what ran across my mind when she made the ridiculous claim. i mean; she knew my father passed away and left me a little money. It didnt come from the donation basket. (:

          • Sue,
            Aye , i get you on that one.
            AA thinks AA do everything for a person.
            when it don’t do much at all if anything.
            I would rather have my Dad than money.
            And if my dad leaves me a few bob when his numbers up .its him i shall thank not AA.
            Hes the one that went out an d worked for it.
            all his life since age 14yrs old. And my dad only ever had half a day off sick,for a hand burn he got when a boiler he was stockin back fired .
            he has never been out of work.

  18. Even with all of the issues mentioned on this site, (many of them deserve national attention, but main stream media ignores this) there is no awareness of what AA specifically is doing to our rights in this country. Again, I think most people simply do not have a clue to that fact that as soon as you are charged with a D.U.I. in this country, your Constitutional Rights can be utterly ignored.

  19. Hey… You guys kept me such good company thru the storms…till my power went out…then my cell lost juice. They just got power back on here for some people last night…but many others are still in the dark and the cold.

    For some reason I have been getting unusually reminiscent about what happened to me last year when I left—RAN from those damned tables. I guess it does not help that someone whom I thought was a friend but was ordered to stop speaking to contacted me… (some of you saw the email exchange)… And you know, at first I felt like, “Well, at least she still cares about me and we did have a valid human connection…Right?”

    WRONG…

    It wasn’t until AntiD pointed out how very tacky it was for her to contact me right off the back to try to hire me to ghostwrite her book after she never paid me to do re-writes and edits of her horrid play a year and a half ago.

    My ex sponsor used to tell me that due to my “character flaws” it was I who did not know how to really be a friend (None of my REAL FRIENDS agree btw) but I think iy is AA’s due to their deep brain-washed state and mental incapacitation who can not be real friends or even real people.

    They really hurt me… I thought I had let go most of the PAIN…but there it was. I guess the storm, power outage…no way to distract myself from my thoughts brought it all up. Plus I’ve been doing more research for my suicide piece…

    Anyway…

    Thank you all…

    I look forward to the T-shirt, book club & call… have to still work out DETAILS…DETAILS…DETAILS

    😀

    • illbfree,
      hello we are also in stormy weather here in England,i watched the first snow fall tonight.
      BRRRRRR very cold wrap up keep warm and hybernate till spring !

  20. illbefree- glad you are okay. 70 tornados swarming around the mid part of the country. Glad your power is back on and sorry for all that you had to go through. The world needs to know that AA woman can be really mean.

  21. good posts.i’m up late again…but not tired..I have had sleep.

    i’m okay now. the things that were troubling me the last time i posted have gone.
    i went to my work that night, and the main boss came in, he asked how i was.
    i talked to him somewhat about PTSD, when i did i really didn’t think
    he would have a clue what i was talking about…after all he is the head of a medical cleaning company..right…wrong!

    As it turns out my boss was in the army,and in the army he was a counsellor who treated soldiers for PTSD,So if i need a counsellor in the future, maby i got one.
    For some reason even though i didn’t fully discuss much, things with him. i felt a whole lot better for haveing talked with him.

    anyway long story short…i went home sat and contemplated the things that
    were troubling me,when i last posted…..what were they again…
    lack of confidence…trouble with sex and love relationships…being acused of being things im not..gay..sad..no one would want you..haveing feelings of anger…raising my voice at times….all that.

    And i was sat there alone, and my counsellor said ..
    There is nothing wronge with feeling angry at times about the things you sometimes feel angry about…there is nothing wrong with useing a firm voice with some people sometimes…there is nothing wrong with being single or celabate..there is nothing wrong with haveing sex with another concenting adult if you want to..
    You are confident…

    you are recovered..you are liveing your life the way you want to and doing things you enjoy doing your not harming no one and your ok.

    i think i’m a good counsellor.

  22. Guess it “didn’t work for you” ?
    Where is the logic in criticizing a program that saves lives? Sounds to me you need some anger management. AA is about helping others. It’s primary purpose is “to stay sober AND help other alcoholics achieve sobriety”. There are plenty of nuts in AA though…..sorry that you must have been exposed to too many of them. Your exaggerations are on the level of “Trump haters”. 🙂

    • Hi rob- AA is not always about Helping Others. When you are forced there which 60 -70 % are– they are being forced a religious dogma from 1935. Not very American – Not very AA like either — They are breaking their stupid traditions left and right.

      SO many are gas lighted

      so many are sexually abused in AA.

      Read the blogs – thousands have posted why they left AA – AA fails 95 % who go.

  23. I attended AA for the first time ever about 3 months ago. I’m 48yrs old and did this on my own. I thought that I was attending an na meeting through Google search. Whatever. I smoked pot every day for many years and drank 2 to 10 bottles of beer two to five times a week. I work full time and felt this behavior was beginning to effect my life negatively. And was in desperate need of help. This was suggested by a loving family member who wanted only the best for me. Emotionally terrified of this admission initially. I had to get help, if not i was doomed i thought. So off I went .first meeting was a share. When it came around to me I stated that I thought I was somewhere else but that I have become self destructive and must change my direction in life. Crying while spitting this out. Meeting ends and I’m approached by several. Offering numbers to call anytime I felt the urge to use. It was awesome I thought. Acceptance! The next week I returned. Sober throughout. An older woman. Couple of years only. Approaches immediately stating she had twelve years sober and hands me a pamphlet with her name, number, and address. Others I hadn’t recognized from the meeting prior came and sat with me as well. Also with many years sober told me that If I were to succeed I had to stick with the winners. and they were them. Vulnerable and scared still I thought wow am I ever fortunate to have this happen for me. To shorten my story some, I’ll move ahead a little. The woman tried 13stepping me quite creepily which I resisted throughout a three week duration. I remained sober during her attempts. She then tried through lies to scare me off from returning to the group. I stood my ground and she stopped attending meetings. Strong clean and sober still today I continue going. Now though. It is so hard for me because now healthier and aware all i do is defend against the next predator, or witness others becoming prey to another predator. Sociopaths, narcissists, sexual sickness is so prevalent here. This is a very dangerous environment for those who are unable to see what’s happening. Or maybe so broken and damaged. They become easy pray. At this point I remain. Trying to help some who are unaware. Yet feel as though I have to move on. There are some good people here. I believe that they are blinded somehow.. I need to find another form of help. I’ve never stayed clean and sober like this ever. Is “SMART” a good option for me?.

    • hi RON_ wow – seems AA /NA just keeps getting worse at so many levels. Yes

      SMART Recovery is a great options. Please run to the next nearby meeting. Go Online 24/7 – read their booklet – you can buy it online. I would run from AA before you get brainwashed. Those readings they do at EVERY meeting is a part to that.

      Im sorry you were hit on so many times. Can I ask what City?

      Also we have a few great groups on FACEBOOK if you want to join a community. Your Choice Your Recovery may be good for now . you can always email me at makeaasafer@gmail.com

      Keep in touch if you want more support.

  24. Hi. Just wanted to clarify something. My initial rant was written in haste. I write only when I text. Don’t know how i made it through school honestly. This is new for me, the truth. So,when I wrote that I was defending against predators meeting after meeting. It wasn’t every time attending, close too though. Anywhere from 4 to 7 meetings weekly. Only one creepy sex type, maybe two. The sociopath, narcissistic type are the prevalent ones in the groups. I believe my sponsor was one. I don’t think these people are bad, evil or intentionally dishonest and destructive. It’s just who they are. Researching personality traits helped me understand and gain introspection into myself and others alike. Anyhow, my vulnerability entering the program, believing all we’re saved somehow and tat they could help me. Told to let go and let God i became naive all over again. Dismissing gut feelings and intuition with my head in the clouds my emotional shares provided supply for the narc. At the end of meetings
    gaslight me. Questioning myself throughout the evening and into the next day, feeling that there must be something seriously wrong with me. The next meeting this would happen again over and over. Meeting after meeting until the pink clouds began to dissipate clarity and intuition began to surface. I became able to recognize and deflect. No longer allowing myself to be the willing victim. still returning to meetings and observing others being victimized i would attempt to help some. But feel that i failed in my attempts I am the outsider now. People have to find this out on their own. Some have listened and agree then fall back in.i believe i may have helped one young female victim.this is yet to be determined.. There are a few I’ve grown very close who try to pull me back in still. They must not have read any of this
    Maybe they have.i really don’t know What breaks my heart most is to see young women becoming prey to sexual predators and no one bats an eye. Shame on them!!

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