Why does Matthew Perry push his “sobriety” AA so hard?

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Why does he have to become the next Nick Nolte of the 8o’s or Robin Williams 20 years ago or any other famous stepper? I’m happy that he got over his booze problem if he really was addicted to alcohol, but why does he have to now make it his life mission to go speak at Drug Court and The Congress and create his own special sober living. That sort  of pressure to carry around in front of the whole world is kinda of heavy weighted…isn’t it?

What happens when he decides  he wants to leave the cult and drink moderately. . We have seen that before. Robin Williams wanted to.

Does Matthew Perry know or care that he is outright breaking all of his glorious AA traditions. Not that I believe that they are anything worth listening too….But for gods sake…cant these movie stars , fuck up, get their shit together and get on with their lives?

I guess not, we are  in Hollywood… the land of the cults,. The land of AA is so cool that a character  had to go to a meeting in the “PLAYER ” to take  a meeting . What horse shit that was.

I feel as though we are up against such a monster with this type of preaching from someone as famous as Matthew. I sure would like to show him the film .

Yet deep  down I know that AA is dying from within. IF we can stop the court ordering it will shrink by 50%. I was invited by a women in San Fran to take the film to Drug Courts and show  it. I think I will.

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138 thoughts on “Why does Matthew Perry push his “sobriety” AA so hard?

  1. I hope you do show that film to the courts. My brother was court ordered about 20 years ago into AA because of DWI’s. I’m happy he’s sober, but he is so screwed up in other ways now thanks to that stupid cult. He believes if he gets angry it will cause him to drink. The result is he now has a wife that talks to and treats him like crap and if he starts to get angry she tells him he better go to a meeting. What a load of nonsense! Personally I don’t know how that kind of treatment hasn’t led back to drink.

  2. He is one of the converted. He has no real knowledge of the entire recovery playing field, just his new found beliefs brought to him by AA indoctrination. He is a mouthpiece for the “Movement” of AA. I say “movement” because that is how they have described themselves on tax returns. The real objective – that he is a pawn for – is to spread Oxford Group gawd control via the “movement” and the more uninformed, but true believer, mouthpieces the AA corporation can get to do that, the better. IT SELLS BOOKS AND PAMPHLETS. It doesn’t matter that it is pseudo-religious, faith-healing nonsense that is less effective than a placebo and there are many alternatives that are actually healthier and more successful in the long run. IT SELLS BOOKS AND PAMPHLETS. He is a tool of the AA Corporation and they don’t even have to pay him. When he finally wakes up from his AA trance, like most of us do, I don’t think he is going to be very happy about being lied to and manipulated.

  3. This is why AA is so dangerous – it is not just stupid people who fall for their scam.

    Matthew Perry is not a stupid person, but AA got him just at the right moment, just like they did with me. If you desperate enough you will believe anything, no matter how bizarre.

    • Jeff- Very good point. But what if it was Chuck Lore, a big powerful Hollywood Show Runner/ Producer with millions is pushing AA.
      Chuck Lore held a Fundraiser and President Obama came just a few months ago. Now thats influencing our White House and Government Big time….They have to be stopped. They have to be exposed.

      • There is a grim reality here. Stopping AA now, is like trying to “stop” Scientology or Mormonism. AA has its true believers in powerful and influential places and possibly a couple million adherents and is embedded in the fabric of American society and trying to burrow like a tick into other countries as well. Reason and logic don’t sway the majority of their adherents, even after they see it is an ineffective medical joke and blight on society. It was designed to spread like distributed cancer with no head to cut off to kill it. Every adherent is empowered to start a new metastasizing node to further expand the cancerous movement. It will take a huge scandal or legislative action to topple it and, even then, it will continue because of the very nature of religious belief – some believe so strongly, despite evidence or legislation, they vehemently refuse to let it die. Even though the “program of AA” is packed with nonsensical pernicious woo, there will always be those that claim it saved their life and that is a very hard testimony to counter. To me, one of the more interesting aspects is that those who argue for it today, will come to realize it really is just nonsensical and pernicious woo and will eventually leave AA in anger and disgust, yet it is the strength of their pro-AA arguments and activity that keep it alive today. In essence, it is being defended today by mostly future detractors. As long as AA has enough people to be captivated by the AA trance, they have defenders. Tomorrow doesn’t matter as long as they have them today. The fragmented anti-aa environment today is less than a non-biting gnat in the big picture. Annoying, but not really threatening. Should the anti-AA environment ever get organized and well-funded it would be a different story however. Also, AA will probably not just go away, it will be forced to morph over time and with each forced change it will claim victory because it is now more safe, or proven effective, or less misogynistic, or whatever. “See, we put new stories in the back of the book, we understand and are changing with the times and being more inclusive.”

        It is a religious movement, not a product that can get recalled or pulled from shelves because it is dangerous or defective. It was designed to be an amorphous blob that absorbs attacks and keeps expanding because no one speaks for it except lawyers, who are precisely the people that keep it going through court participation. “Bringing down” AA will be an impossible task without wielding more power than they already have. That means money and organization and proposing a better, more proven solution to remedy the societal blight of substance abuse. It isn’t enough to continually point out AA is bad, there must be a substitute that accompanies the criticism. A remedy for the crisis.

        My probably not popular 2 cents.

        • My reply to your 2 cents. It is embedded from the top down. Two words Betty Ford. The presidents wife. To this day AA is recommended at the white house website. Can’t get a higher recommendation. From this brief mid seventies presidency spawned changes in legislation which saw the proliferation of rehabs and the treatment industry which promoted steppism 90% of the time. The treatment industry serves as a recruitment centre for the 12 step cult and explains the rapid expansion of AA since the 1970’s. It was driven from the top down just like in the 1940’s with the Rockefeller involvement and the celebrity endorsement of Marty Mann. Mathew
          Perry is just the latest celebrity endorser. The expansion of AA can be explained by a concept called cultural meme theory. Whereby an idea seems to take on a life of its own and evolves as if by natural selection, not dissimilar to your cancer analogy.
          But here is the good news. The anti AA movement is also a cultural meme now and will evolve in the same way as biological organisms do, by natural selection. No individual will wield the sword that slays the dragon but incrementally things are changing.
          There are a lot more options nowadays for treatment than there have ever been before but how effective are they? You ask for a substitute that accompanies the criticism – a remedy for the crisis.
          Here is my 2 cents.
          Neuroscience and pharmacology will play a big part, just maybe not in our lifetimes. It took a long time and a lot of science to get those polio and smallpox vaccines. So what about now? What have I got?
          Abandon all cookie cutter approaches to the substance misuse problem, every recovery program must be a tailored nuanced client specific response. We should no more seek substance use treatment in a group than have our prostates examined en mass. My opinion is the dual/multiple diagnosis also known as co morbidity should be taken as the norm rather than the exception. In doing this the disconnect between addiction and the rest of mental health can be ended. Bill Wilson hijacked addiction treatment 80 years ago. Society must take it back where it belongs. In the healthcare system where it belongs.
          So what does good mental health/substance misuse treatment look like. Hint; nothing like AA
          Specialized treatment of the whole person not just the addiction —- a multidisciplinary team of professionals who coordinate and discuss client progress —- this includes professionals who can prescribe psychotropic medications —- treatments that focus on mental health issues such as depression anxiety PTSD and are evidenced based ie motivational interviewing, CBT. There that’s a start, no praying, no inventories, no group meetings, no faked gratitude. you see there is no such thing as alternative treatment. there is just stuff that is proven to work at some degree and that is called medicine. Then there is other stuff which has never been proven to work at all.

          • Not to get too tinfoil-hattish here, but Ford’s veep was Nelson Rockefeller, and Ford was also involved in secret societies and appointed Bush to run the CIA. Could mean nothing but interesting, nonetheless.

            • I lean very heavily to the thoughts of some kind of back-channel dealings when it comes to the Oxford Group and its progeny, Alcoholics Anonymous. There has to be a larger reason why the nonsensical, faith-healing organization has been allowed to exist, prosper and become embedded in society(s). It surely isn’t because of its success rate, of which, it has none. Well formulated and accurate criticism of this organization has been going on since its inception, yet it continues to exist as some kind of treatment for substance abuse, which it is not. True believers can say it is the work of gawd, I say it is something different and is related to money and power at some level.

            • Interesting. I don’t know much about President Ford but it is an undeniable fact that the rehab industry and 12 steppism multiplied manifold times after his presidency. Also after Richard Nixon declared the ‘war on drugs’. Now how is that war going?

              • Swimmingly. Money is being made on all sides of the conflict. Prison populations are up, drug sales and volume are up, weapons sales on both sides are up, rehab churn is up, hospital stays are up, emergency rooms are hopping and then there is all the jobs created. Why would anyone want a real solution to substance abuse to mess with this lucrative game? Just leave the ineffective faith-healers in place so it looks like society is actually doing something about the problem.

            • jeff- I read a bit of a book called The Family. It in DC area – a house where the fallen go to recoupe – so similar to AA insider thing. If they love Bible Study, The Family- they will love AA and they love The ideology of AA making people succum to powerless and broken for life.

      • One huge problem is that the AA “powerless” meme is drilled into most people via powerful media messaging long BEFORE one takes their first drink. As one’s habits worsen there can be a slide into the defeatism of step one (puke). I am just over one year free of the beast (after a mere 20 months–which I know earns me no bragging rights on this thread). My drinking has moderated to what I find to be acceptable limits–if that changes, like in HAMS, I’ll adopt a modified plan. I don’t have the answer to the AA cancer–except for myself and anyone that will genuinely listen. That’s enough for me at this time.

    • I was desperate but never wanted what they had to offer. The cure always seemed much more harmful than the disease, as they referred to it. Could it be stupid or simple minded or both:

      Being stupid is to know that you’ve made mistakes but not learning from the experience. Being simple is not being aware that you made a mistake in the first place.

      I feel like I was kind of stupid for continuing to go back to AA and not learning sooner from the experience; yet I forgive myself and understand why I Did it; false hope. Eventually I was aware that it was a mistake in the first place.

    • Another victim of the cult. Rob Lowe’s another stepper sadly. Charlie Sheen’s my hero! He calls the cult out on it’s bullshit. That’s why I love him!

    • What a load of horseshit. If you don’t like AA don’t go. Stop watching “Lifetime for women.” You sound like a bunch of little bitches. AA is Dangerous? ahahah please. Enough with being a dramaqueen. Don’t fucking go it is easy as that. I love my life in AA. As far as the courts go don’t fucking drink and drive if you don’t want to go to AA. That is your fault and no one else’s.

      • I will leave this post up to show the world how AA members really act. Not like on shows on CBS like MOM with Alyson Janey Produced by Chuck Lorre. What a farce.

  4. I went to AA, court ordered in my 20’s and I found awful. Ran back in my 30’s but it didn’t work. Then, at 50 I went willingly and have stayed.
    I get that it can feel like a cult. It isn’t.
    Except for when court ordered I have never gone when I didn’t want to.
    I am not a Christian and the whole God business frustrates the shit out of me. Mostly because the christians seem to think that Jesus is the only god and unless you’ve found him (whatever the hell that means) you aren’t okay.
    But, I can’t go to atheist meetings in my area because they just sit around and complain about god talk.
    There is no way that AA is a cure all. But, it is not a cult.
    And, the entire country would be done a great service if courts quit sending folks to meetings. The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking and most of them don’t meet the requirement.
    What makes it feel like a cult is those folks who don’t get outside help and stick to some stupid party line that may or may not be a part of the “program”.
    Outside help is a MUST for anyone serious about the AA program.

    • Ironjaw- But you are in AA now and you like it…So why are you here writing on a LEAVING AA blog? WHAT’s THE POINT. I don’t see you need help leaving AA at all.

    • if outside help is a must why did they tell me to get rid of mine?
      and my first week in AA, i was told my old beiefs and relgouse views
      were no good didnt wouldnt work and to find another.
      i was not a practising christain.no church dweller and didnt talk about god often.
      but my god was the one of christains.at that time.
      and if people dont like talk about god well AA causes them to talk about that since AA tells people to do just that.
      (Find god work steps then go tell other people abouty it.)
      im also fed up of hearing about gods and higher powers.
      but people have a right to there gods and higher powers, or there athieisim, and to talk about that.
      in AA its expected.after all thats part of cult or religouse life. go to church and expect to hear about god.go to AA and expect to hear about a whole bunch of gods and atheisim.
      AA is a cult of its own.
      yes stop sending highly dangerouse people to AA,AA is not safe!
      i had a desire infact a need and want to quit drinking pre AA and dureing it.i would be told to stop pulling that card out my pocket.
      i was terrafied to drink pre aa but drank.
      i left AA 3yr ago, and im no longer afraid to drink.
      and there you are again classic of AA.
      BLAME !
      now its blame those that dont get outside help.
      before that it was blame the addicts
      and its been blame the non alcoholics
      and its been blame the victim.
      fuck you! set of religouse spiritual athiest AA steppers.

    • What part did AA play in it?
      What they didnt do none of it?
      They are not responsable for nothing?

      I had been for help around drug use and alcohol use to a few diffrent places prior to going to AA.
      I was haveing very seriouse problems with my alcohol and drug use.
      At the time of me being fished in i was trying to keep clean/sober alone.
      i managed a couple of months and used and drank again.
      a few weeks into that relapse.
      I was fished into AA recruited in. by an AA member.
      on the banks of a lock in scotland.
      i went and was further recruted by other stepper AA members.

      AA invited me in.they fished me in recruted me and wanted me to go there!

      They spun me the tales..wondefull life..do it or die..

      From then on ..may 2001 untill i left i was slowly becomming one of them.
      and also began to talk like them do as they did.

      Sit with the monkeys long enough and you become one of them!

      im sorry to all the people i then when on to effect in a bad way,by my own fishing and recruiting.

      AA fished me in and i went.AA wanted rid of me later..and i left.

      im glad i left, im happy to be out of AA..and if any of them tryed to fish me in again i would tell them to piss off!
      i dont blame me for nothing around it .

      i only feel sorry around people i may have effected badly,by my own AA talk.

      AA YOU DID IT!

    • I know this is an old er post but AA has many markers that qualify it as a cult.

      Alot of popele like to Fight about this topic but here goes—-

      Its very cult like—-how bout that ….NO ONE IN THE WORLD has the right to say ” ONLY WE CAN HELP YOU” —especially non professionals.

      “IF YOU EVER LEAVE US YOU WILL DIE< GO TO JAIL OR GO INSANE -----" and-- If any group or person tells you that you must come to these meetings forever.....be it AA------a yoga group---- or Scientology----or The Mormans, or oh ---- btw The Catholic Church doesn't even say that kind of Sh*^T Ummm that is a marker for a cult. There are many more I could list here about AA but I'm tired and off to bed. Night night.

  5. wow- some great stuff. I went out with my hubby for a dinner date. Lovely. I see some really intelligent discussions that I need time to ruminate and respond accordingly. But here is my 2 cents for now…

    I will say this …if I didn’t believe that I, my film and a small group of people, a large quiet group of professionals (Dr Marc Kern, Tom Horvath, Andrew Tatarsky, Jeff Foote, Ken Anderson, Lance Dodes, Ken Regge, Stanton Peele, Jim Christopher, Marc Lewis, Dr. Carl Hart, Dee- Dee Stout, ), who have been waiting for us Anti AA;s, Anti AA bloggers, Anti AA Facebook pages to be here, to speak LOUDLY about our distain for “It” including Gabrielle Glaser, who single handedly pissed off and educated thousands of people with her book and articles on Pro Publica, The Wall Street Journal and The Readers Digest to name a few, http://gabrielleglaser.com/articles/ got real media to print it and Lance Dodes who wrote the seriously critical book THE SOBER TRUTH, The BUSINESS of Recovery a heavy hit at AA and it’s infestation in rehab, it will be released hopefully soon, I could not go on with the fight to expose, educate and change what is going on without all of this good progress that has been made .

    It is depressing sometimes when I discover another high ranking official might be an AA member like Gavin Newsome or the Matthew Perry’s of the world.

    But there are some things brewing that are really wonderful that keep me going. I can not speak yet but …We did get CBS 48 HOURS to tell the story of the Karla Brada Murder last November, and they mentioned my film. Katie Couric did have Gabrielle and me on her TV show …I know we need to be more organized…but did you know that even the gay rights movement had a lot of infighting during its heyday in Miami Dade. ( I saw this on a Doc last month on PBS and it was very inspiring considering some of the infighting some of us have endured.)

    I sometimes feel like spj and that …well…it’s hopeless. But My film has not been in distribution yet and I have AA old-timers who are glad I made the film and they want court ordering to stop and they think AA has become to culty….not that most of you care about this… but.. so there are issues we agree on…I mean steppers and anti AA’s .

    I like what swami wrote and this… is the world I have to live in. I have to have hope that just like the Moonies and Scientology AA can be shrunken to the size of a peanut and or The Elks or Lions Clubs. That something big can happen so that the head, its arms and legs of AA may be cut off , and the Goliath, falls flat on its face, and or it collapses in on itself. …more likely that is what will happen, I predict.

    One big A list HBO or Netflix Series fictional show that really takes on AA would help
    A few Indie and A list films that tells true horror stories about AA would help
    A few big stars talk in media who hate AA
    We stop court ordering as a practice nationally would help
    We stop the ordering of violent sex offenders to AA,
    We have a massive AD Campaign to educate other options

    I feel as if we are the brink of something really breaking wide open …until then, I will get the film to as many Film Festivals as I can and if I don’t get distribution I will distribute it myself on Vimeo or try through GATHER.

    I hope I get to meet most of you one day in person.

    • Hi Massive,

      One thing in your post that struck a cord in me was how you mentioned that so few of us Anti-AA’ers have been willing to speak out. I have wondered why our numbers are not growing exponentially and I think that it may be because,

      1) Those of us who have left and are willing to speak out often get criticized for members and NON-members alike because the world has been so brainwashed. It’s hard to be a lone voice so we get silenced.

      2) People who leave AA are so glad to finally be free they just go on and live their lives without looking back. Not everyone is cut out to be an activist because it takes time, dedication and can be very emotionally draining. I know that there are times during this last two years when I have melted down and had to re-group.

      3) Some of the members of the Anti-AA crowd have been flat out bonkers and have spewed nonsense on the net – repeatedly. This type of thing makes regular people shy away. Some times it is hard to ‘Stand fast’, ‘Carry On’ and look respectable when there are crazies in your own camp.

      4) Then there has been some infighting. That is normal within any group of people but can still be distracting when trying to keep one’s mind focused on the task at hand.

      5) It’s not easy. We are not ‘the hero’ or ‘the prodigal son’. I think people like Perry who go public with their sobriety are doing it as a Public Relations stunt because they want the world to think of them as ‘A good guy’ and ‘A Champion for worthy cause’.

      Pffffft……. what nonsense. I think members of AA who are loud about their affiliation simply have their own agenda. Like the Church of Scientology – being a member can greatly affect a persons career.

      Finally, 6) It is a thankless task. We don’t have legions of people (even on our own side) telling us how wonderful we are to help us continue. We don’t have tshirts, jewelry, books…. none of that stuff to help us stick around to help us feel like we belong to a group that is doing something great – when times are tough.

      I believe all of this will change for us activists, but it will take time. Like any group that is trying to affect social change – it is thankless in the beginning.

      But it is a worthy cause.


      • Librarian- how you mentioned that so few of us Anti-AA’ers have been willing to speak out.

        Yes this is a problem which I entirely understand. Poeple are embarrassed they were even in AA. Some think it will hurt their careers …also true, some fear they will be further ostracized…also true.

        But its like the GAY RIGHTS Movement… but harder. We both know that. So even with that said, I think the more they want to talk freely about “I’m in Recovery” in public, just like our Drug CZAR MICHAEL BOTTECELLI who also used his GAY card to endear the public to see him as “a Human being” a man who fucked up and made good” on and on….and now works in the WHITE HOUSE spreading his AA agenda cult beliefs.

        I think you made good points and its all true. Each person who left and really knows how deep it goes can make a difference by talking to just a few people.

        Eventually we will need big National Media to get through to millions. I have a PR person now working with my film . She usually represents actors, so we have been covering lots of ground since May 1. We are making progress and I expect this fall to be very good.

        Thanks all for a great conversation all started by my Music guy Leon Luis in London, who posted this story on my FACEBOOK page. And he knew how it would get me ….going….:)

        • It looks like Botticelli has been reduced to speaking at drug courts and engaging in small scale efforts. I wonder what happened? He is the US Drug Czar and should be working on huge, multi-billion dollar programs, not the penny ante stuff he is doing. Me thinks there isn’t much real confidence in him at the White House. Great interview, bad follow through. Sound familiar?

          Also, for an interesting look at some types of future addictions brought on by technology, check this out

          If addiction is primarily about changing the present, virtual reality is poised to provide near total removal from reality. Its gonna get interesting.

  6. There are some clever insightful thinkers in that list of professionals, I could add several others, all of them contributing quietly to the evolving meme wherein people demand better than a faith healing cult for addiction and in so doing expose it for what it is. Also Monica Richardson belongs on that list.
    You know Mathew Perry has no idea that whatever he is doing he is just a pawn recruiting for the cult. Russell Brand is no different. The stark reality is that the vast majority eventually leave the cult. True believing old timers are really quite rare. It relies on endless churn, continuous recruitment. Marty Mann Betty Ford Martin Sheen Mathew Perry – got have that celebrity endorsement.
    Everyone s contribution plays its part in the evolving meme but I think more than anything it is making the wider public aware of just how dangerous it is that will bring about the shift. That is why your work is so important. Oh and also if people would wake up and realize that it doesn’t work.

    • Thanks SWAMI- Yes I forgot about Martin Sheen. He still talks in front of Congress. He was the past years DRUG COURT Professionals Opening Speaker. I really should go that next Conference and have a booth of my own or picket the event. I know Nick Nolte was sober a long time and left- but I think he is done with it by the look of him.

      If I did that would any one here work the booth with me ?

      SWAMI – could you tell those Professionals you know working quietly to contact me ?

  7. Compare whatever it is Matthew Perry is doing with this. It is like night and day. This is so refreshing it has an ‘Emperors Clothes’ quality to it.

    ‘Chris Raine was a party hardened young (23) advertising professional from the Sunshine Coast, Queensland, Australia who gave up drinking for a year — partly as a social experiment and partly because his friends told him he couldn’t — and documented the experience on a blog Hello Sunday Morning, a movement towards a better drinking culture. every Sunday morning the HSM community share highlights of their hangover free day.
    His insights into his relationship with alcohol inspired some of his friends to follow suit. Soon the site became home to a community of those taking a break from drinking. When I looked at it I was struck by the potential of what he had started. Here was a network of young people all enjoying life and achieving their goals, simply by cutting out booze for 3, 6 or 12 months and blogging about their experiences. This public commitment was the key to the movements success, helping to keep people accountable and therefore boosting their chances of making the distance. Posting links to their blogs on Twitter and Facebook had a ripple effect encouraging others in each writers social network to take up the challenge.
    There were fewer than 50 bloggers (now over 59,000) when I first visited the HSM website but the unflinching honesty in their posts was powerful. These were young people largely in their twenties, drowning in a culture that implored them to drink at every juncture. What I found disarming was how dissatisfied they were with the culture they inherited — but they knew no other way.
    When I first interviewed him over the phone when Chris spoke to me from his Caloundra home, I was astonished at his level of insight into the complex connections that Aussies have with alcohol. His ability to articulate his own motivations for drinking was even more impressive, especially for someone who was just 23. I remember wondering where I would be now if I had that degree of clarity about my own relationship with alcohol at his age.
    When we met in person he was relentlessly upbeat and energetic, he had a passion for his work that coursed through him so violently he was practically luminous. here was man on a mission — to change our drinking culture and unlock what he believed to be Australia’s greatest untapped resource: Sunday mornings…….Chris reckoned that 3 months off the booze was the minimum time it took to fundamentally shift a persons relationship with alcohol.
    I admired what he was trying to achieve but was a little suspicious. Was HSM a modern day temperance movement? A slick front for God- bothering puritans?’
    High Sobriety; My year without booze; page 11, Jill Stark 2013
    No not really. It is an uplifting spontaneous grass roots movement and another manifestation of the evolving meme. this easy to navigate website with smart phone app allows people to share there Sunday mornings without a hangover through all the media that the modern digital/social networking world allows. it is very 2015. No sign of 1939.
    It is not temperance, it is a variation on moderation. Inspired by the incisive clarity of youth it is a game changer in the whole approach to alcohol issues. I encourage all to take a look at Hello Sunday Morning.
    No one is diagnosed with an incurable lifelong disease, no dogma, no church basements, no abusive creepazoids,, just a simple evaluation of ones relationship with alcohol and a commitment to change just for a while see what happens. And you get to celebrate and share the rewards straight away.
    So, there we have another beautiful alternative.
    Now what is Matthew Perry up to again?

    Jill Stark is a Scottish journalist now living in Melbourne. her book High Sobriety is a good read.

    • Pretty cool stuff. Maybe AA was good for the 30’s and 40’s, but its time is over. It’s relevance has been waning for quite some time and something like Hello Sunday Morning is a proof point of that. So is the Sinclair Method, SMART, SOS, etc. If AA truly worked, these other things probably wouldn’t have evolved into existence. They evolved because there is a need and that need is created by the dismal failure of a dangerous social experiment to address substance misuse called AA and the 12 Steps.

  8. Sadly every silver lining has a cloud. Here is what happened when Jill Stark ( author of High Sobriety) and Chris Paine ( founder of Hello Sunday Mornings) were invited to appear to on a national television talk show hosted by Australian daytime royalty Kerri Anne Kennerly. I groaned with recognition at this, as it reveals how successful the Matthew Perry’s of the world have been at influencing the entire way that the subject of alcohol is discussed. Here it is in Jill Starks own words.
    ‘During the week Kerri-Anne’s producer is in frequent contact. I’m told that the interview will largely be based on the content of my article, and will be centred on the challenges faced by a binge drinker who takes a break from alcohol. Chris and I are advised that we’ll be sent a series of questions, and that our answers will be presented to Kerri-Anne as ‘background’; I’m not sure why this is necessary, but I’m happy enough to do it. yet when I get the questions alarm bells ring. One reads, ‘When you were having a lonely evening at home with just a bottle of wine for company, did you ever feel ashamed?’ They also want to know how many drinks I had a day, and whether I drank at work.
    I call the producer. “It sounds like you are trying to paint me as an alcoholic,’ I explain. She tells me that’s not the implication, and these questions are just to help Kerri-Anne ‘get across the issue’. I’m wary, but she is persistent. I tell her that some nights I might have had only a couple of beers or, if I stayed home, nothing at all.
    ….When we arrive at Channel nine studios in Willoughby,…… we’re seated on a pastel couch under lights that make me squint. The camera is trained on Kerri-Anne, sitting opposite as she wraps up the previous segment. We’re presuming she will then throw to a commercial break, allowing her to introduce herself and put us at ease before we are on air. Instead, she begins introducing our segment. “On a big night of partying, my next guest, Jill Stark, was drinking about 15 drinks a day…”
    Fifteen drinks a day? My mouth drops open, and a snort escapes…. I compose myself as she continues to tell her audience about why I quit drinking. “After one to many hangovers and a few regretful alcohol related incidents, she decided to turn her life around.”
    The interview is a train wreck. She infers I was a booze-hag, calls me Irish (I’m Scottish), and asks if I had ‘big issues’ with alcohol; the implication is almost that I was sneaking gin in the toilets at work just to get through the morning. She introduces Chris as someone who ‘wrote a blog’, without offering any further information, and depicts him, too, as a problem drinker. But it’s live television, so we keep smiling and try to bring her back to the point: that we live in a culture that makes not drinking increasingly difficult. We are no different from thousands of Australians our age. It is disappointing that she either does not accept this, or chooses to ignore it. Even more disappointing is the caption — ‘Jill Stark, reformed alcoholic’ — posted beneath a link to the video on the Channel Nine website the next day. When I call up to complain, the producer apologises, telling me it was human error. But it feels like a stitch up.
    In hindsight I shouldn’t have been surprised. It’s not the first time I have had this type of reaction to my temporary abstinence. The assumption is that if you have to cut out alcohol completely, you must have a problem. this idea fails to take into account our culture’s unrelenting social pressure to drink, and drink to excess.
    Tellingly as we left the set, Chris asked Kerri-Anne what it would take for her to stop drinking. She rolled her eyes theatrically, saying with a smile, ‘Oh, there’d be manslaughter charges,’ and proceeded to regale us with tales of the entertainment industry’s proud tradition of heavy drinking. ‘Work is my handbrake,’ she said, with a forced laugh. The hypocrisy nearly choked me. But I smiled and said nothing. What would be the point? I was learning that although this drinking culture touches us all not every one is willing to own their part in it.’
    High Sobriety; My year without booze; Jill Stark page 85.
    I can just imagine the grovelling uncritical reception Matthew Perry would get on this show. it is not a fair fight. Interestingly Jill Stark experienced what it is like to be labelled ‘alcoholic’, and it was not nice. She also found how hard it is to discuss alcohol in different ways that don’t defer to the AA script.
    Mainstream media is a long way behind where the discussion takes us on blogs like this and people like Matthew Perry serve to keep it that way.

    • Yep, they have folks right where they want them. Nice tight package.

      Ever drank too much? You are most likely an alcoholic.
      Rehab is the preferred method for dealing with alcoholism.
      Once you leave rehab, you must stay abstinent for life, most likely through AA.
      If you ever drink again for any reason, it is a relapse and you need to go to rehab again and get back to being abstinent.
      And that’s just the way it is. Like gravity.

      • And if you disagree with any of this you are in denial which is a symptom of your incurable disease. If you look for other explanations of the drink issue or look for other solutions then it is just your disease talking. Now shut up and listen to Matthew Perry and his beautiful share about how everything you need ever know about alcohol was revealed to an angel of the lord in the 1930’s.

        • Amen brother and pass the Belladonna, we got some white lights to see !

          Now, where is the recipe for that wonderful gawd-producing elixir?

          Ohp, here it is

          Take enough of that shit and the gawd of the preachers shows up and blows right on through ya after a grandiose white light entrance. Gawd is kinda theatrical that way. Doesn’t want ya to miss him when he shows up.

          • I hear ya, once mine eyes were no longer blinded by the white light I always pictured him as kind of like Liberace, theatrical is thy word. And of course the gawd of the preachers knows that old showbiz maxim ‘always leave them wanting more.’ Hence he only delivers sobriety in 24 hour increments. Even the Tsar of the heavens has his limitations. Of course I’ll have another a swig of Belladonna, bring on the miracle that only lasts for a day.

  9. AA ignores socio economic factors and social pressure as influences affecting a persons drinking and instead turns all of its focus on character defects and a ‘spiritual disease.’ Thus making the person themselves rather than the behavior the problem. It then sticks the abusive label alcoholic on them and strives to ensure that it stays there for life.
    In contrast Hello Sunday Morning recognizes not only the significant impact social pressure has on peoples drinking but also quite brilliantly uses it as a solution.
    I can remember reading something ( I think it was by Stanton Peele) about why alcohol abuse was at a much lower level in the Jewish community than elsewhere. The only explanation was that it was due to strong social pressure not to drink too much within that community. Traditional recovery, especially 12 step has failed to recognize this. Chris Paine has. You see he starts in the right place with ‘What is your relationship with alcohol?’ HSM is about the behavior and not the person.

  10. Here is a bit more from High Sobriety; My year without alcohol. Relax, nearly finished!
    ‘Chris Raine calls to congratulate me on my year without alcohol. We reflect on how much has changed since we first met. Hello Sunday Morning has grown from a small network of his friends and acquaintances to a movement of 3500 people in Australia, New Zealand and the UK (FYI it is far bigger now, the author is writing on new years day 2012 ). He has been selected as Queenslands nominee for Young Australian of the Year, and I am so proud of him — he has come a long way from the sober freak at the party in a gimp mask and red undies. For me, it has been the most rewarding and productive year of my life. I feel as if I have achieved more in the last 12 months than I have in the last decade. I learned to run, I sang in public, I saved thousands of dollars, I shed my self consciousness and danced on a bar with my mother, I took the leap and started grown up dating, and my dream of writing a book came true. All I had to do was lay off the booze.
    Today as countless Australians wake up to a world of pain, some are drawing a line in the sand. The Hello Sunday Morning website has gone into overdrive: one person is signing up every 4 minutes, (WOW!). It seems there is an appetite for change. Sometimes, I don’t think Chris realizes just how powerful this thing he started is, but others do. If he can win this award it will change everything. the publicity would catapult HSM to a new level of community awareness. I can picture a time when taking a break from drinking won’t be a big deal. You won’t have to cop flak from your mates, convince people you are not a religious zealot, or face claims of being unpatriotic. ‘I’m doing HSM’ will become such an accepted part of the Australian vernacular, that it is all you’ll need to say.’

    High Sobriety; My year without alcohol. Jill Stark page 281.

    • My, my. People just making a conscious decision to lay off the booze and it works for them with a little support. No dogma, no self-deprecating labels, no Bill Wilson religion, no bullying or manipulation from old timers that know best.

      Cool stuff !

  11. I hope the next time someone turns up on this blog saying we only bash AA and offer no alternatives they can be directed to this thread and the stuff I have provided about Hello Sunday Morning. I have been occasionally asked about what is going on Down Under but I didn’t want to offer anything until it was substantial and completely different. HSM fits the bill and there are other interesting things occurring here.
    People like Matthew Perry shout their message so loudly no one can hear any different message, but thankfully this is changing. There are many ways of looking at and framing an alcohol problem and therefore many different solutions, most of them more effective and less harmful than AA. It is time everyone including the likes of Matthew Perry stopped reading from the Bill Wilson script, it always was pure fiction. HSM is reality in 2015.

  12. “… he used his comedy to put the audience at ease…”
    When did he become a comedian? What would Bill Burr, Louis CK or the late George Carlin have to say about this? He is a fuckin actor, he reads words written by someone else. How many thousands of stand up shows did he do?
    Yeah he is an actor, and now he is just reading from the Bill Wilson script.

  13. swami- I know—so depressing 🙁

    Such BS too- We need some famous people who either left AA and or stopped over using some other way and would be willing to talk about that…but that’s alot to ask…or is it.

  14. What a sad world it is in that cultworld, constantly harping on about the past and terrified of the future. Perry is going through the mad merry-go-round like most of us did in that cult. If the message was to talk about alcohol & drug abuse it would be ok but when the mind-warping cultspeak is pushed I have a problem with that! Religious woo woo dressed up as science is dangerous to a persons mind-set and I am suprised that medical professionals haven’t spoken out publically about it. Guess it shows how much that cult is ingrained into the mind-set of mainstream society.

    • One of the problems is the medical and scientific communities have been calling bullshit on AA and 12 Steps for decades and it hasn’t really mattered – the cancer still spreads. The tide may be turning but it will take legislation or something severe to shut it down. I would start by making AA declare that it is not a substance abuse treatment and that it is religious faith healing with a super high failure rate.

    • I have found that many medical and legal professionals genuinely believe that AA is a support group. They appear shocked when I tell them no it is not, it is a cult religion. They are also shocked when I tell them it has a success rate less than spontaneous remission, that means less than zero.
      You see it appears to have government approval here in Australia as well as the USA. For instance anyone who wants to work in a place that sells alcohol has to get a certificate, like a licence to serve alcohol. It is easy to get, you can do it on line. Amongst the questions to be answered is one about support services for problem drinkers, the only one offered in the study materials is Alcoholics Anonymous. So it is essentially government sanctioned. No mention of any other recovery modalities whatsoever.

  15. I returned sooner than planned.

    Some of the famouse AA people
    really make my stomache turn.they promote it so openly.
    they use the media to do so,i wasnt very learned on all there traditions, but isnt there one that says they shouldnt do this?

    And im sure i heard , one famouse AA, say “theres no other way” on a television programme.
    they might as well set up there own television show, and call it sunday worship and conversion with AA .
    do it or die show..theres no other way..save your evil soul with bills 12 steps.

    its a long story but i didnt get to spain, i parted company with my companion
    and i ended up sleeping outside for a night. i got as far as folkstone in dover,and i did a car and train trip and all of it without any drugs or alcohol.
    And i wasnt craveing any. So im just keeping off them because i want to.
    and i havent really did anything to try to keep off.
    its just me myself thats doing that.

    as i was layed in my sleeping bag under the stars on the white cliffs of dover i recalled how AA always seemed powerfull to me. most of the other members also seemed very powerfull.like the whole thing, and those in it, the big fish, were untoucable.they had power over me, as im sure they have with many people.and some abused that power.Im sure many of them were power mad.

    im glad i got out before i became like that.

    “Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.Great men are almost always bad men.”

  16. The power-trips in those rooms were a sight to behold. Some of the most arrogant .a..holes I ever came across, I can only imagine the way Bill Wilson was like. Behind all the “humility” lies a arrogance that is repulsive to say the least. In my last days I called up one of my exSponsers and called him a deluded fool, I am so glad I did as he was an insulting arrogant prick.

    • bitter.
      in my last call to my last x sponser around 3 years ago.
      i said aa is run by bullies and i dont want to become one of them.
      Theres a lot of do gooders in and out of AA. Who come across
      as good people doing good things. They have another side and an agenda.
      The internet videos around cults and there leaders show this.

      well i know they wasted years of my life nearly drove me to suiside
      caused me extreme mental and emoitional anguish cost me a career..i could say more.

      bill wilson and his god expierance, remind me very much of joe
      smith and the mormons among other cults.

      I wish i had turned to another form of help back in 2001. For what was a drink problem, not alcoholisim.
      back then i had no intenet and knew nothing of other forms of help.
      such as smart, or life ring.

      my first sponsor was power mad in the extremes, i heard she ran off with the kitty money. she had 2 sides 2 faces like most of them do. AA was makeing me the same.

      we are lucky we got away. but its taken its toll on us all.

  17. that accpetance teachings havent did me any good.
    just accept everything. thers someting not good about that part of aa doctrine.

    i no longer accept the things i cant accept.

    i no longer accept that im an alcholic addict.
    i no longer accept that im evil or black hearted with no good in me.
    i no longer accept that i cant run my own life or think my own thoughts or that my emotions are bad sick and to be got rid of.
    i no longer accept that i must turn the other cheek.
    i no longer accept people talking down to me.
    i no longer accept that i must ask permission to piss
    i no longer accept rape was my doing
    i no longer accept anyone is above me in authority over me or has the right to control my life
    i no longer accept bad treatment from others
    i no longer accept the big book its teachings or bill wilson as being right correct or the only way
    i no longer accept AA

      • thanks i let it rip sometimes its good for me.its taken me most of my life to get to the point where im at right now.
        If i had not gone to AA, but stuck with support and survial
        abuse counsellors there , and my one to one phycology sessions,
        i would have got to this place a lot sooner and easier.

        AA set me back, not only set me bavk but was makeing me
        more of a doormat than i was pre AA.
        there teachings are not right for people like me.

  18. most of, but not all , of the x cons i met pre AA in AA/NA..
    and since leaving AA, i see a few every day since they live right next to me.

    i have found to be boasting of there jail time.
    they come across as know it alls, who learnt all about human life and everything they need to know, in jail/
    they come across as i know better than you, and i can teach you what you need to know.
    they come across as haveing had to endure more pain in life than others, been through much worse than others.
    how many times i have had to listen to jail; ” taught me everything.”
    and the amount of times these x cons have thought i need them as my protector,
    or guide in life both in and out of aa.

    i think i was stupid not wise for haveing been in trouble with the law for petty crime in my long ago past and pre aa.
    i felt ashamed not proud. I didnt feel sorry for myself or think i had a hard time because i went to court, or probation.
    i dont reckon i know it all or learnt everything i need to know about human life
    just because i was locked in a police cell.
    or have mixed with x cons.
    what i have learnt is, keep out of trouble with the law and keep away from cons.

    im fed up listening to x cons jail storys.both when in aa and since out of it.
    im not saying x cons are all bad people..but most of them these days do my head in.
    and thers x cons runing the show in aa.now doing acts of kindness
    in there comunities, or is it acts of kindness.

  19. How true sally- The ex cons were looked up to in the rooms and a lot of the ex cons knew this. The thing is some of these ex cons didn’t mention what they were in for…

    • and im guilty of admireing some of those x cons.

      thinking how great they were for haveing changed so much.
      now such good spiritual people.
      thinking they cared since they wanted to protect me.
      LOL more fool me.

      They heard an x battered wife, who had been married to 2 x cons.
      share how she didnt jail her partners.how she was praying for grudges to go over haveing been finacially mentally physically abused.

      they heard a target talk.

      one even read my life story then some other forms in step work.
      and 3 years after leaving aa, came to my door to try and use me.
      and when i said get lost sent nasty lying intimadateing txs to my mobile.So much for mr 15yr sober reformed and transformed do gooder AA in the community.

      im watching fright night on telly, horror films, its safer and less scary than AA meetings.

      off to get a cuppa get under my blanket and watch exorsist 11.

    • and no they didnt all mention everything they were in for.some didnt say nothing at all about why they were jailed.
      i only found out recently what mr 15yr sober did for a liveing pre AA.

    • I think that these guys are also looked up to and given kudos in Hollywood and in the kinds of shows like SONS of ANARCHY. I believe he is a stepper. The creator and now he is on the cover of the HOLLYWOOD Reporter.

      So not only in AA but in our society our young people who fuck up get all the negative attention. ”

      Gee look how good you are doing now after you robbed and killed 3 people.” But the Teens and young people who do the right thing are ignored. I want to change this somehow.

      • i definatley agree with this. im off to get ready to meet my daughter.thankfully she has no drink or drug problems. if she had of went there when in her teens they would have had a field day with her.
        and she may get in touch with you in late september..shes going to help me around a letter to the goverment here about this problem

    • i just watched that video.
      this is a good man i wish i knew men like this.the world needs men like this. im going to set up a new facebook page. and im putting things like this and the news articles around aa on it.
      im pretty sure thats why that aa man turned up at my door.because he and some of them have been spieing on my page.and i was putting anti aa things on it.
      im fed up as being seen as a victim.both in and out of aa.
      im know round this city as a beaten wife.i got away from domestic violence 16yrs ago..but thats still brought up to me to this day around town.
      and im sure the amends i made to the x partner, in this city who battered me has served him well.and been gossoped to all where i live.
      they think i would still take it.and the blame the victim isnt just aa people..its the same out of aa.
      i feel like i want to stand outside the aa meeting with a banner saying blame your predators.if they come near me again they will find out im not powerless.

    • yes bitter. i was a shoplifter , mostly dureing my first marrage to a con who drank what money we had. i never saw any money when with him he kept what we had.dureing our marrage i raly drank maby 8-10 times in 7-8yrs.and i had never touched a drug.
      i shop lifted food.
      i stopped after i left him. and then shoplifted again in the 80’s after my second marrage broke up. and i lost my job..

      i started shop lifting as a small child.and im not sure why i shop lifted.but i dont think it was drinking that did it.I did it.

      i got probation in the 80’s it worked i have never shoplifted since.

      years later i go to AA, where im finding long term sober people are comitting crimes when sober and doing the 12 steps.
      the 15yr sober aa man i mentioned told me, while i recently had contact that he had been shoplifting last year.

      also lies. they are so big on getting honest yet most all of them i caught out lieing to me.or lieing to other people.

      some of them will say if pulled there mental health problems made them do it. or there alkie head took over.

      or yes, those new in or relapsers would say the drink made them do it.

      i hope i never sink so low as to commit any crime again,
      theres the card that says we are not saints..i know im not a saint i dont want to be saintly.
      but i dont want to think its okay or right to commit crime or slander people or threaten them rip them off tell hurtfull lies molest or rape murder or hit them either..
      yeh they certainly arent perfect or saints

  20. Hi sally, I was no saint neither but the carry on of most of those x cons in the rooms sickened me, it was the ones who did time mostly. “I took my will back” “It was my disease” etc that grated with me.

    • yes i took my will back thats another they say.
      i just had a call from my youngest daughter meeting her for dinner and coffee in a couple of hours.we talked a little about this problem in aa. shes prepareing for her wedding in september. shes being married in luca italy. after she gets home she is going to help me with getting intouch with our local
      council ,goverment around this court ordering x cons to aa.

      my anna works for the goverment.at one time she was involved with protests but now doing some other work.she said when she gets back she will come on line and talk with massive.

      shes not a high up official but she will know how to word things for me and where to send my letter to.

      yes my will back..no they are just doing what comes natural to them.
      like robbing old people and rapeing teenagers.

      i was raped at age 16 by a middle aged man ..it was not my fault i did not cause it to happen..this is why this kind of thing is important to me.

  21. The more I learn about Bill Wilson the more I pity him, as I now consider him to be a closeted gay during a period of strict sexual mores in America.

    I mean really, think about it.

    I read here the other day that Bill Wilson considered his wife Lois to be more of a mother figure to him. How odd for a straight man to say that.
    And I consider the womanizing to be an extreme case of overcompensating, which was a common phenomenon until men had the ability to love each other more freely.

    Bill Wilson’s overriding desire to destroy himself with alcohol is legendary. His impulse to wound his body is telling, and indicates a severe sense of self-loathing. Now, why would a white man in the 1930’s have such an impulse—most of those men had the world on a string, and enjoyed opportunities that women and minorities could not.

    Bill Wilson’s obsession with the Ouija Board and spiritualism would be considered very odd and weird. Few straight men are interested in that nowadays, let alone then. Most male ‘psychics’ are very flamboyant gays and Bill was no exception.

    Bill’s ‘channeling’ of Boniface, the 15th century monk, was a flaming and overtly dramatic presentation of Bill’s secretly flamboyant side.

    I do not hate Bill Wilson, I feel sorry for him. I always did actually, but never knew why.

    I have now figured it out, and am most pleased with myself.

    • Wow. Hadn’t thought of that. You could be right and you should be pleased with yourself. Wow.

      I have always felt that the Big Book was misogynistic towards women – perhaps there was a bigger picture in the writing of it.

      Very interesting perspective you have brought forth indeed.


    • Interesting analysis. Let’s remember that Frank Buchman, leader of the Oxford Group from which AA sprang was certainly rumored to be gay and a pedophile. Perhaps it was constant repression of desire that facilitated his ability to craft the circular logic in the BB.

    • Yeah, it’s highly possible that Billy Wilson was bisexual and the Oxford Group was a creepy bunch for sure. They were really about money and power and the rest was for show.

      Regarding the spiritualism, it needs some historical context. Their world is not our world today and spiritualism in the broader sense was how a lot of people dealt with the grief of the loss of more humanity from WWI than at any known time in history. http://ww1centenary.oucs.ox.ac.uk/body-and-mind/a-solace-to-a-tortured-world-the-growing-interest-in-spiritualism-during-and-after-ww1/ This would have affected Wilson more or less directly and spiritualism of many forms was very common in his formative years.

      We can also look at cinema from 1939 as a pivotal and “magical” period in mass entertainment. For many years, films had provided comic relief and some poor quality drama and projection, but 1939 was the year of huge and iconic films, the likes of which no one had ever really seen. The Wizard of OZ with technicolor occurring in the middle of the film was nearly a modern miracle. Gone With Wind, StageCoach, The Humpback of Notre Dame, Of mice and Men and many others that are still studied today for their groundbreaking drama and cinematography were giving people a wonderful temporary departure from the drudge of daily life in 1939. Imagine going into a plush theater for the first time and a huge screen in front of you displays the Wizard of OZ? We take everything it represents for granted today ( color, huge sets, fantasy, etc) but it was undeniably new and stunningly wonderful in its day.

      Spiritualism and magical thinking in all its forms were just a part of normal life for a variety of reasons. As an example, look at a collection of “Talking Boards” https://picasaweb.google.com/117647286196676882310/MuseumOfTalkingBoardsCollection?authkey=Gv1sRgCOKzwcW0t4izrgE

      I still think Wilson was a nutcase and it could have been his early childhood trauma that pushed him into the direction of radical spiritualism, but he was hardly unique in that period with his use of Talking Boards, seances and communication with the dead. In fact, he may have been admired for it to some degree. If it was truly considered shameful or outlandishly stupid, they wouldn’t have the spook room on display at Stepping Stones. It’s on display for a reason. I really wonder what that reason is.

    • he may well have been.my second marrage comes to mind.
      it ended when i was find out he was a closet bi-sexual.
      he was also a womaniser and had some interest in spooks.
      classical music was another obssesion for him

  22. Straight dudes simply aren’t interested in having a darkened “Ouija Board” room in their house in which to contact the spirit of a 15th century monk—in terms of straight guy interests, that ranks right down there with scrapbook conventions and Cat Fancy Magazine poetry.

    • c- funny stuff. Never really thought about that. I thought Bill W. was a god when I was new in AA. I idolized him….so stupid of me…but oh well…moved on !!!

    • I’m not sure gay people are into Ouija boards either. I just think Bill was an insanely lazy man who refused to work for a living, just like L. Ron, and figured he would start a religion.

  23. How steppers even steppers with 20 years or more cannot see Wilson for what he was especially his made up cuckoo religion is beyond me!! But I too was one of them beliveing Wilson was inspired by God, that is how powerful that cult or any cult can be. His behavior and his struggles with depression when he was sober should tell people that his steps did not work and his perspective was from a severely depressed mind fuelled by a trip he had on belladonna.

    • I think a lot of long-time steppers have done the research. In the spirit of serious hypocrisy, they stick around despite knowing the truth because they don’t have the guts to leave. It becomes part of their lives and leaving would mean a re-assessment of their identity. Many believe they are special precisely because they are in AA and it is the vast majority of their social structure. To leave means they would have to admit they are just people who have been involved in a cult for a very long time. Leaving the cult of AA can be hard.

    • yes his depressions. i often heard in the rooms that if one gets depressed its because they are not working the steps.
      now since bill helped make up the steps, i can take it, he knew them and how to do them more than most.
      so it did not work.
      his vision was from a insane drugged up man,who had been involved with religoun.The same kind of expierances as many other people, have had due to religoun being rammed down there throats along with too much alcohol and drugs.
      (I have actually been there,in my past. the medical people professionals told me it was pycosis. which thnakfully im no longer in.)
      he was just another chareltan. same as the spooky bunch that charge money from griefing people to get messages from there dearly departed.
      he was a cult leader.

    • The reason everyone thinks Bill was a saint is because of that retarded James Woods movie from a few years ago. Pure propaganda.

      • jeff- so true- and what ever happened to Jim Woods…

        They join AA and lose interest in acting … many of them …I could make a list. Jamie Lee Curtis- disappeared too.

  24. Agreed spj, they must surely know the facts but are afraid to admit it to themselves or to others. It is very sad that some steppers look on it as an identity for themselves and a form of status. To know that you are living a lie and pushing that lie on newcomers is quite frankly wrong & immoral in my book. So much for honesty!!

    • For a lot of AA old timers, their sponsors “go back out”, leave AA, or die. Their sponsors are the main interpreter for the nonsense that is the program of AA. Now, they naturally turn to the internet for info and find more than a treasure trove of opinions and commentary on the ridiculousness of the program of AA. It’s everywhere. One would have to be a blind fool to not see the hypocrisy, lies, bullying, manipulation, misogyny and downright ineffectiveness of the AA environment.

      ” Probably no human power could have relieved our alcoholism, but gawd could, and would, if he were sought” . Tell me how any honest person can’t see that critical sentence as faith-healing? The essence of the program of AA is faith-healing nonsense wrapped with soft, gooey, amorphous bullshit. Like a bad green hot dog in a moldy bun with some rotten condiments thrown on top. Yeah, some eat it and live, but the vast majority can’t stomach it.

    • I think that is one of the fascinating aspects of AA. Those that recruit, defend and argue vehemently FOR AA today, will most likely leave it at some point. More than 95% seem to.

      For most people in AA today, there is an eventual, “Fuck this AA shit, I’m outta here” moment in their future. Also, the act of defending it and engaging in debate about its virtues seems to be the catalyst for their eventual departure. When confronted with the reality that AA is a nonsensical spiritualist religion and not a treatment for anything, its like they wake up from a trance and get out. Happened to me and many others I have encountered. The process of awakening is generally the same – the truth comes at them and they attempt to defend their position and realize their arguments are weak as hell and fall apart quickly and easily once they do the research. My own points in support of AA melted when investigated. I was trying to support the imaginary rantings of a crazy man that have no proven efficacy for anything. Not such a great basis for a debate, eh? No wonder so many people leave AA .

  25. the realisation has hit that i have been a gullable nieve fool most all of my life.
    not only around AA, but also my personal relationships, and other things.
    some things seemed right at the time.some were a form of survival.some i knew no better,didnt know how to get away.

    i feel stupid,yet im not without inteligence.
    well i have wised up now,and just want to make the best of it,
    with the rest of my life.

  26. I have been reading up on Edgar Cayce who would have been a huge influence on Bill Wilson during Bill’s youth. Edgar Cayce, the “Sleeping Prophet” was incredibly popular for many years, a real rock star. Even my great aunt who suffered from various illnesses wrote him for advice, although sadly, she died of leukemia anyway.

    Edgar Cayce was a ‘channeler,’ something that Bill Wilson surely took on as a viable career choice. Cayce’s medical advice, which was the result of a trance state and contact with an ethereal being (God), generally prescribed deep message and castor oil pack treatments as a method of recovery. I’m sure the messages helped somewhat but I fail to see the benefit for more severe illnesses.

    Anyway, Cayce’s faith-healing was a flop for most, including my great aunt as I wrote above, but that hasn’t kept any modern faith-healers from extolling the false virtues of channeling. Witness the popularity of the channeling-inspired rhetoric of one Mr. Boniface, who whispered the tenants of AA to the trance-induced Bill Wilson. I don’t think people know that Bill Wilson was also a ‘trance-artist.’

    Cayce was wrong many other things including that tiny bit about California falling into the ocean in the 20th century. Cayce may have been channeling a superior being but that deity obviously never took a community college geology class, because if he/she/it did, they would know that California cannot possibly fall into any ocean.

    And I still stand by my claim that parlour-trickery and seance rooms are not the affect of normal heterosexual men–yes, spiritism was wildly popular at the time but mostly with women, and it offered women a sense of prestige, adventure, and spirituality to their lives. And I won’t declare that to be inherently wrong–after all, who knows what happens to us post-mortem.

    And judging by his photos, it looks to me that Edgar Cayce had a little sugar in his tank too.

    • sorry about your aunt. my grandmother went to the spritualist church. and in her last years my mum did.they both went for
      the spiritualist curch is right next door to me as is a christain church and an aa meeting
      i went to the spiritualist church a few times after i left AA.
      For something to do at night,that didnt involve a pub and drinking.

  27. I read a lot of Edgar Cayce when I was new in AA> Funny how things you write here are true and how they inter connected with AA back then in the 70’s.

    What a ripe nutty new agey time for AA to take on a stranglehold in America….and the UK and Sweden.

    • sweden rings a bell. just before i left aa,the last x sponsor said her and her friends were going to set up drug addicts anon in this area. this was started in sweden. she said it was based on the big book.
      i have set up a new facebook page.i have not put as much info about myself on it this time. and i have used my shortned name.
      is it ok to put some things from here on it. the news articles the clips of the film?

    • I lived in Virginia Beach VA in the early 90’s, after I got out of my first rehab. That’s where Edgar Cayce’s A.R.E. (Association for Research & Enlightenment) Headquarters is. It’s got an extensive library, meditation center, etc. — like a freaking shrine — the same as like what Stepping Stones became.

      It has the all too familiar stench of a cult — just like AA & Scientology — with retreats, online courses, events, conferences, bookstores, study groups, tours, health spa, regionals, offices all over the US, you name it.

      I read a lot of his stuff, my first 6 years not abusing drugs — at the suggestion of my mother dumped all his books on me, and who was also in AA herself at that time.

      Funny how the two are entwined in an odd sort of way. Not sure why I mention this, except that when I discovered Bill W did the Ouija Board / Spook Room thing, things got creepy for me, and that feeling of WTF?

      Haven’t been on this site in a long while. I’ve missed it. I have something to say about a few things that have recently happened that involves how AA has taken over the medical centers, mental health facilities, veterinarian clinics, animal shelter, and more (!!!) in my small town. I’ll save that for a separate post. I feel like a stupid idiot over something I let happen — how I did not see it coming — and just haven’t known where to go to talk about it.

      • rainbow- hi and nice to see you . Yes I read his stuff too. It was pushed on me by older steppers. I feel so stupid right now …..LOL…..not….

  28. The rage I feel because of all that mumbo-jumbo I feel today is enormous. I just want that rage to fully itself so I can move on from my years wasted in that madness. The sheer indignation at them and myself for not heeding my instinct years ago when I felt something was not right in StepperWorld. If there is a Hell then I hope Wilson is in it along with the other scumbags. Either Wilson was mad or he was a scumbag I will never know but all I know is that I was taken for a ride when I entered that madness. Before AA/NA I never expected things from life and accepted it for what it was, I had no illusions nor delusions but years listening to ‘How it Works’ and the ‘Promises’ my head got full of expectations fueled by illusion & delusion of AAs Genie in a bottle religion. I wish I could sue those bastards!!

    • bitter,
      im sorry. i know how you feel. i go in and out of angry thoughts and feelings towards them.
      it’s something like going through a relationship breakup from a twisted partner.
      but worse.
      I reckon it’s natural and human to be angry about it.just part of putting it behind and in the past.
      my rages went away for a while. then came back recently.
      and now simmering down again.
      i went to talk with a lawyer last year,but she said because its not a goverment run place i cant do nothing.
      i might ask another lawyer.

    • At some point in the future, there may be a huge class-action lawsuit against AA and its ecosystem. Something has to be done to hold the supporters and purveyors of the nonsensical horseshit that masquerades as some sort of treatment accountable for the damage they do to most people who fall into its gaping, love-bombing, false-promising maw.

    • bitter- I know how you feel. I hope you can see my film eventually in a theater or on your television. 🙂 Taking some small actions to stop the coercion may make your feel better.

      Have you tried doing something, like writing letters to judges, Doctors or Lawyers to educate them.

      Doing nothing but blogging may not be enough. Get AA out of one church near your house will help with your anger for sure.

  29. Thanks sally, I wonder do the oldtimers who know it’s billshit ans still endorse it feel any guilt? I always felt there was no compassion in those rooms.

    • i dont know i never got to being an old timer even though i wasted 12 yrs there. i reckon the ones that leave do.

      i kept leaving and going back.the first year there i near drank myself to death in relapses.on one i was run over by a car.
      as time went on dureing relapses ,i dont know what else to call that.
      i learnt to keep it to 1 or 2.
      the most sober time i got was 4 years 1 of those years i didnt go to AA, but stayed sober.

      i know i felt a lot of worry around people i may have effected by my AA talk.like my children.

      i have started my new facebook page off with a music video.
      “pretty reckless where did jesus go.”
      i get rid of some of my rage by posting some music videos.not sure why but it helps.
      this 1 reminds me of how they were big on makeing people smile all the time. well they were with me anyway.
      i cant smile all the time or be cheery every minute of the day.

      and im sure a young teenage girl whos just been used or molested by an aa member cant be expected to sit smileing in meetings. or some homeless teenager who may have been thrown on the streets and used and abused,turns to aa for help and gets told she did it or look at what you did…or think how guilty he must feel forgive and go make ammends.be of service and stop thinking of yourself.. cant be expected to sit smileing and happy all the trime.
      im going off line now to look for some videos and things from here to put on my page.

      these are the words to the pretty reckless song.if its not ok to post them just delete it please.

      where did jesus go
      I have a tale to tell about a girl whose soul was screwed
      She was born into a life with everything to lose
      Her father sold her to the trade when she was just a child
      She was seventeen and never ever learned to smile

      She took a bullet and she blew out her brains
      She didn’t say goodbye, she just went away
      And now who’s missing her?
      I wish she was here
      Her name was Angel and she’d had a bad year

      So you wanna call me the devil’s advocate
      When you don’t know the half of it?
      Cause I was raised to believe in miracles
      My life is so cold

      Where did Jesus go?
      Where did Jesus go?
      Where did Jesus go?
      He disappeared

      Where did Jesus go?
      Where did Jesus go?
      Where did Jesus go?
      He disappeared

      What’s the point of screaming out if no one gives a damn?
      What’s the point of reaching out if no one lends a hand?
      She had passed the point where there was nothing left to give
      She was seventeen and never ever learned to live

      So if you wanna call me the devil’s advocate
      Well you don’t know the half of it
      Cause I was raised to believe in miracles
      My life is so cold

      Where did Jesus go?
      Where did Jesus go?
      Where did Jesus go?
      He disappeared

      Where did Jesus go?
      Where did Jesus go?
      Where did Jesus go?
      He disappeared

      She needed an angel to love
      And no one sent her an angel
      She needed an angel to love her
      But no one sent her an angel

      But you wanna call me the devil’s advocate
      But you don’t know the half of it
      I hate I was raised to believe in miracles
      Cause life is so cold

      And if you wanna call me the devil’s advocate
      But you don’t know the half of it
      I hate I was raised to believe in miracles
      Cause life is so cold

      And where did Jesus go?
      Where did Jesus go?
      Where did Jesus go?
      He disappeared

      Where did Jesus go?
      Where did Jesus go?
      Where did Jesus go?
      He disappeared

  30. i have put 2 videos on it now
    why do i keep attracting narsissists
    and what is the stockholme syndrome.
    these videos have been really helpfill to me.
    i know why i got into relationships and aa and stayed so long now

    • True Massive- AA uses this suppression of anger as a control method so people will doubt their truth and their true self and rely on Wilsons Religion.

    • If I had known that AA was based on Bill Wilson’s channeling sessions in a darkened seance room I would have never stepped foot in the joint.

      What a bait-and-switch that one is. You think you are entering some glorious support group that specializes in counseling drunks and what you actually get is a free-for-all cult of new age maxims and ego-degradation.

      Don’t get me wrong–I have met lovely people in AA, made some great friends, but everyone moves on eventually. Sooner or later you question the validity of the “Promises” which is a lure to keep you coming back, and I especially ‘love’ the one about freedom from financial insecurity. Apparently, somehow AA weaves it’s magic right into a New Age Prosperity gospel, which is similar to those t.v. evangelicals selling their “Prosperity Water.”

      Do they still run those ads with the preachers asking you to mail in $36 dollars to receive a “get rich’ blessing?

      I think the Promises drive people to suicide. They even had “Promises” meetings. And there we all sat, like schlumps, waiting for the big return on our devotion only to find out that 99% of us will never, ever, be free from financial insecurity in our lifetimes. How much has that hurt fellow AA members who lost jobs, grew poorer and were made to downsize their expectations. In the real world, no such promises are made unless you had actively sought out a wingnut cult or surrender you $36 to the prosperity television evangelist.

      And Massive, you are SO RIGHT about AA destroying the American Spirit. Our country was not founded by these principles, nor was it founded with magical thinking. The twelve steps, along with it’s sibling New Age thinking has dampened the courage, boldness, and creativity of the American people.

      And on a basic level, just think what that two hours a night we would give going to a meeting could do for our life if we had spent it in a college class or learning a new instrument.

      Why, we would have something to show for it, wouldn’t we?

      • AA is the “religion of slaves”.
        Stop fighting anyone or anything.
        Anger – bad
        Resentments – bad
        Self will – bad
        Thinking – bad
        Groveling humility – good

        What else does a slave owner need is a good slave?

  31. It is true that the more you stay away the more insights you get on 12stepworld and it’s powerful grip on a persons life. Basically it is “you wanna stop using/drinking? then join our religion!! I used to pride myself even when in that cult that I wasn’t religious and didn’t believe in organised religion, how wrong was I? I was religious and in an organised religion!! Thats how powerful it is with it’s slogans & gaslighting, I fight feelings & thoughts of self-loathing that I was hoodwinked but smarter people than me were as well. I still have that split in my mind with Real World & Stepper World which causes me anxiety & self-doubt. I take the Real World anyday otherwise I will sink.

    • bitter,
      why bash ourselfs for it.We have been bashed enough.

      I take it the people who post here must have had some kind of drink problem to go there in the first place.
      i was trying to help myself around the problems my drinking gave me.thats not a bad thing to do.i was doing what i thought was the right thing to do.at first i think everyone went for good reasons.
      and the indoctranation, began early on.by the time i wanted out i couldnt get out.

      i also was looking for a better life than what i had pre AA.

      its been 3 years now,and i havent fallen to the the depths that were predicted for me.no jails,or instatutions, and im still alive.

      my life is not wonderfull, but its not “No Quality of life ”
      i was told if i left and stayed sober i would have no quality of life.
      my lifes okay, but not great and thats due to illnesses i have and
      lack of companions.

      pre AA i had lots of friends..dureing AA i drifted away from them.
      in AA i wouldnt say i made any friends.i could have lots of friends now if i wanted,but i wont entertain most i meet. because i rarely meet people who are ok.

      mostly, i stick by my 3 children 4 grandchildren my father and sister.

      i wrote some letters over the last 3 years and sent them in,i dont know or care if it helped them any..i did that for myself. im writeing a letter at present, to post to some place higher up like the UK goverment. Thats for other people who are in there being abused right now.

      even though no one replys,(i dont expect to get no apologies
      from them) it still helped me to do that.

      I know, that they know, what i know !lol
      district 12 is on tv

      .thats the film about the people who get sent into the jungle and told they will die if they dont get sponsors to send them tools to help them survive.

  32. i met up with my sister today shes been working at the music festival round here.
    she said she met an x na member who had been in one of there rehabs. he told her how bad they make people feel about themselfs.

    i tyred to tell her how its a religoun bills religoiun.and not a good religoun.

    bill wilson never got the programme he invented.
    so there fore he didnt have his own programme,and therefore could not have passed it on to other people.

    i often heard in aa, you cant pass on what you havent got.

    lots of the early mebers drank again, did they all stay in aa?
    so they didfnt get it either.
    most who go to aa leave aa some drink again.

    actually no one has it, no one got it, cause theres nothing to get.

    people stop doing things that arent good for them ,when they want to.
    when they have had enough.
    the people in aa that go and stay abstinant for life,are doing it themselfs.

    • “…No one got it because there is nothing to get…”

      Bravo Sally!
      I couldn’t agree more.
      I’m currently going through some anger at AA for having tricked me into a lengthy participation (although I never worked the steps) and misled me into following a cult founded by a ‘trance artist.’

      I first attended AA at the age of fifteen and even though I had lived through quite a bit of trauma I still put my faith in Jesus Christ. He got me through the worst times, and I will always praise him for that.

      I remember feeling spooked by my first AA meetings as a teenager but went back later around the age of 20. AA’s preaching of powerlessness contradicted my faith in Christ, who made all things possible and empowered us in our lives. This should have been a huge red flag to me and a sign to get out permanently. But alas, I had a hard time staying sober, and i enjoyed people’s company.

      I now believe AA to be anti-Christian completely as any member who openly discusses faith in Jesus gets shot down, insulted, belittled, or ostracized. Catholics are hounded out.

      The whole issue with “finding your part in it” is placating evil.

      There is something afoot in AA that is dark and dirty. And it ain’t about Jesus, that’s for sure.

      • Hello C,

        Thanks for discussing the issue of how faith is handled in the rooms. I can’t tell you how many times I have heard rude comments back at people who have expressed faith of any time. The worst is hearing comments like ‘Up there (meaning the church above) they are praying for miracles while down here we are making them happen’.

        Pardon me???

        One day I lost my patience and talked about how grateful I was to the parishioners who donated their money/time to build the building that I was sitting in for that meeting. Then I went on to talk about the cheap rent that was subsidized by those same parishioners – and that without their belief/ faith I would probably not have a place to sit in and get sober.

        You could hear a pin drop.

        Afterwards I had practicing Christians come up and thank me for speaking up.

        AA members take the praise for other peoples work and ideas. Using the church rooms for less rent than all other groups is another example of how members feel entitled to special privileges just because they got sober.

        Well…. they aren’t – and it’s about time they stop badmouthing the congregations/faiths where they so often hold their meetings.


        • thats right as well. its mostly christain churches rooms the use.but for people that preach gratitude
          they fall very short on being gratefull to the church people. they sit knocking them and pulling them down.

      • 15years old,i dont think its right that people that young should go there at all. yes i found them to be hatefull of catholics, and all christains.
        theres nothing to be got by those steps.
        i regrett trying to do them .in the process of trying to i went through a kind of hell on earth.because i kept being told to get rid of my old pre aa faith ,god, and find another.
        and that was just part of step work that near sent me to the edge of suiside while sober.
        and i know what its like for someone in there who has beliefs
        in jesus christ. because i did pre aa and early on in it and at times throughout.
        they did stuff in my mind around this.
        im not a practasing christain,my roots were christain.very early roots. childhood and younge adult. as a young mum i joined another cult mormons ..after i get away from them i hoped i would never join a cult again.

        so i wasnt a regular church person. or follower of any church teachings. i just said my own little prayers,in my own words.

        a good few years back in one of my last NA meetings, after trying it again from being out, an old timer told me NA had got together to get rid of me because i sometimes talked about jesus.

        i no longer have belief in anything.
        however i still reckon jesus had a lot of good things to say.

        dureing my time there i changed gods more than i had hot dinners.

        pre aa a prayer to god in jesus christs name at times was good enough for me.

        that night i spent recently in my sleeping bag under the stars in folkstone.i spent it under a cross in a christain church yard.

        thats a long story,but maby jesus was right there with me.

        AA is filled with people who have differing faiths,catholics methodists scietologists jehovas witnesses mormons spiritual athiests all people with differing faiths.

        however i reckon the real or original AA are evangalists.

        its good that you have your christain faith and church if you have a church.
        im sorry they got you so young you dont need them or there steps.

  33. the promises i read the posts around that.
    AA the false promises, if you do it, life will be wonderfull no fear of poverty
    and death and destruction promises. if you leave here you will destroy yourself and die.

    i was terrafied my life would go back to how it was pre aa.
    i kept being told if i drank again or left it would go back as it was.
    i was getting out of horrendouse domestic violence when i went to aa
    and thats just a small part of what i was terrafied of getting back, in my life.

  34. The promises are so far-fetched and no professional would give people false hope like that. Down right dangerous. It takes time and understanding to overcome trauma in your past. Insincere apologies and taking responsibilities can be very even more destructive to you; when you had no part.

    I believe AA did nothing for me but prolong any justified fear and anger that I needed to be dealing with. I didn’t want to suppress my feelings but discuss them with an intelligent person who understood and then be as free of them as possible. I needed to be around kind people who were not insincere, hypocritical, angry, hateful and resentful; because they weren’t making their own decisions in their life.

    One of the many, many things I learned in AA, was when they would tell me (after debating their program); “it’s your program and you can run it any way you like, just keep coming back”. Personally I found that not at all to be true; until I had exhausted myself. I hope anyone still attending has better luck. For me it has been much better since “leaving AA”. I do not believe it is a safe place for people going through any emotional place in their lives. They are capable of dragging you down further. Its up to you.

  35. Leaving AA wont give you complete peace of mind but its a road to recovery. Just stay away from anyone in the cult, if at all possible. I am in a position where i have not accomplished that yet and it’s difficult. However, it is my greatest hope and desire. Don’t deal with inappropriate behavior and others lack of your boundaries; if you dont have too.

    • i left aa 3years ago.and i stopped all contact with them apart from some letters i wrote to them.

      i went for counseling after i left that helped me around some things.
      i put domestic violence and traumatic events from my past behind me and no longer blame myself.

      the ammends i made to an abuser from my past also caused me damage.however there were things i did wrong to him as well and i did feel remorse around those things..

      i dont let people push me around anymore.after i left aa people have tried to,including an aa old timer.
      i stopped it in its tracks.

      i dont put up with people abuseing me any more.
      however most of the people i meet try to.
      i dont meet people who are okay.ad i mostly stick around my family.
      every time i meet a stranger,,as it starts to turn into a friendship ,they start to show signs of abuse.

      the last friendship that was forming for me ,and i thought she might be ok ,she was a non drinker non drug user who didnt smoke or swear and seemed like a nice person.she had never been to aa.
      her and some of the neighbourghs round here who dont drink i thought i would try and be more friendly towards. since they all were sober.and i live in a comunual area. and lack companions.

      and they have been repeatedy telling me i should mix more with them.and that i should be more friendly with them .they also said it would be better for me than mixing with the drunks across the road who also tryed hard to get me to be more friendly but when i did tryed to bullie me so i stopped it.

      i met her 2 years ago ,she comes here to visit one of my neighbourghs,shes a friend of his.
      he dont smoke or drink but isnt aa.
      she turned out to be a finacial scammer who was ready to scam me.she was also trying to bully me put me down.this didnt staert untill i was on a motorway 100 miles out of town in her car.
      as soon as i realised this i told her to get lost. i was in folkstone at the time in her car waiting to go through the euro tunnel.on route to spain.

      glad i realised before i went through the tunnel. i slept under a cross in a curch yard then got a train back home..at 6 am next morning.
      thats how determined i am to walk away from abusers.

  36. is it interesting i dont know.

    i wish i could spot abusers and users quicker.
    im getting quicker at it .but not quick enough.the last 3 men in my life i spotted it quicker than i did at one time. when they started talking about and pulling down the other women they had once knew. there x partners.

    saying things like i cant get her to leave me alone, and she gets jealouse, and pulling down the way they looked all sorts.
    i thought if they are doing it to them they will do it to me.

    i got out a lot quicker than i used to.
    i can get them to leave me alone if i want them to.

    im also aware that i can be abuseive to.

    thats why i spend some time each day to study and work on things like that.
    the internet helps.

    • hi Sally- sounds like you could use some counseling around this. attracting still abusive people. There are things you can do to change that.

      and its NOT TO write another 4 th step !!!!

      But you probably have patterns that are deep seated that need to be addressed. I had alot of therapy. It changed me forever.

      • yes im going to ask my doctor if i can get some help around this.
        i watch videos on the internet that help.
        if i had only kept doing what i was doing pre aa instead of listening to them.
        i got rid of the people that really were helping me.
        i have had counselling ,that helped me but thats not the same as therapy.
        at least im not takeing it anymore ad getting away quicker.

  37. AA is an abuseive cult filled with many abuseive people.
    Some are worse than others.

    when someone abuses me i can give it back,fire back at them.
    then im abuseive.my responses can be.

    in AA , I was continually being told to be patient.tolerant,turn the other cheech take it on the chin.forgive stay friends with someone even if they have abused you.
    So most of the time i didnt fire back.

    when the last troll came on here,i stuck out in rage at him/her back of hills or something like that he/she was called.i was rarely that fiery in AA. they knocked that out of me.

    i dont want to let other people abuse me or use me. and i dont want to abuse other people. but im not so sure its a good thing to get all the fight knocked out of you.

    where i live, its hard to meet people who arent bullies, criminals users abusers.
    i keep hopeing. i need to join some groups or something again.try to mix in with other humans.

  38. i want to say hello to anyone whos just came to the leaving aa pages.
    i see names on the welcome page. but i cant get on that or some of the other pages.
    im not sure why.mayby its time i got a better computer.
    anyway i hope things go okay for everyone who comes here and everyone who leaves aa.

  39. How it Works and The Promises are downright dangerous alright and hve led a lot of people to breakdowns & suicide. The damage that cult did to my life still induces me with indignation and rage and I am glad I feel that way for now as it is good for me to feel my true feelings. At least I am glad that I know the Truth now about that crap rather than later. I hate the Bastards!!

    • bitter,
      most of them in there are surpressing how they really feel.
      at least we can let it out and deal with it and be rid of it.
      most of them will be sitting with smug faces saying how wonderfull aa and there aa lifes are, and going home and strangling there cat.
      bastards is too good a word for them.what i call them would be too offensive to put on the internet.
      and that happy sad thing.
      if i smiled i was in the wrong if i was down, depressed i was in the wrong.
      i found it very hard to have any expression on my face at all.

  40. they arent very good with understanding that some members have problems other than alcohol.either are they.

    its like i had a 12 year old at home when i first went there.
    i couldnt always get someone to care for her when i went to a meeting.
    they would tell me i was useing that as an excuse not to go.
    they told me i left her alone at home to get drunk…i didnt pre aa i drank once a fortnight and had a baby sitter.

    i was 42 when i went there half crippled in body and mind.
    my spine has got worse over the years there are injuries and illness
    that cant be cured and get worse in time.

    they couldnt understand that sometimes i cant even put my foot on the ground without terrable pain.
    no that was an excuse.gulit trips put on..and we have old timers getting here on there scooters.

    they want know why your not at every meeting ..you tell them i was in too much physical pain to walk.i couldnt put my feet on the ground i had to take painkillers and lay down till it wore off.

    and what you get is…
    thats an excuse we have people dieing of cancer here running round smileing and being of service.( well my opinion, They should be at home takeing care of themselfs or being cared for and around there family…not in there being slaves for aa.)
    or we dont come here to talk about our problems keep it to talk about drinking.
    oh yeh well dont ask why im not at every meeting then!

    fuck meetings steps big books fuck the lot.!

  41. It still suprises & delights me that more & more people are coming out about that dangerous cult. Facebook alone has pages that are anti-aa along with other areas of the internet. I again today am feeling the rage against them as it completely wasted 10 good years of my life and I am still paying a price for it today. The brainwashing is still in my mind-set at the best of times and I fight it with all I got to keep me sane. I stay away from steppers the best I can and when I do bump into one I have no hesitation in telling them my feelings on Wilson & his cult followers, I hate them with a passion!!

  42. Hello Bitterness,

    I felt that way for a very long time after I left AA. The internet helped me ALOT to vent that rage. I fought with AA members in every comment section that I could for articles that had been out about AA; it gave me a chance to fully speak my peace about the program.

    Now that several years have gone by – my rage is gone. Finally. 🙂

    So don’t feel that you are abnormal or attempt to crush your rage – my suggestion is that you channel it in a HEALTHY, productive and safe manor.


  43. Christians use the saying about Jesus Christ ” I am the Way the Truth and the Life” Steppers use that saying about AA & Wilson. The program was everything and the ramblings of Wilson will lead you to believe you will have heaven on earth. How can be anything but another religious cult with a charismatic leader, though I found nothing charismatic about Wilson.

  44. I’m the original “c” and I don’t understand why you would use my moniker on this site. If you have a point, please use another initial or name.
    Dear recalcitrant reader/poster, your alacritous usurping of my identity won’t fool anyone, especially Massive, of whom you harbor special feelings for, I’m sure.
    Best of luck to you in all of your endeavors,
    the original “c.”

    • hi C- Nice to see you here today- at doctors all day — so just catching up . WHAT fools some of these trolls are …..kinda laughable.

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