The Long And Winding Road

This is our never ending thread, home of our ranting and sharing of stories. A place for encouragement and community. Begin any topic or discussion and keep it going till it fades.




Be Sociable, Share!

1,834 thoughts on “The Long And Winding Road

  1. Rarely Have we Seen a person fail …

    Those who do not recover are usualy young men and women who are led to belive if they are not good at A.A they won’t ever get better, everything is there fault so they might as well just go back to drinking and using. They seem to have been born that way. There are those too who suffer from social anxiety disorder but many of them do recover if they just do some honest sharing in front of alot of people mosty there because of the courts, rehabilition treatment centers ,sober livings and halfway houses .

    • Those who do not recover are wrong, less then, and not good enough to stay sober like we have. They are born broken like us. They suffer from metal disorders like thievery, sexual divients, murders and rapist, and Oh yes Pedophiles because we cant control what we do to woman and children when we drink. Men suffer too under the hands of predatory women but we don’t address that here in AA. We’re a boys club. You can recover if you put the plug in the jug, let me yell at you and insist I know how you should live your life even though I am a total loser and have not one decent relationship with anyone.

      • `And for those who are not happy going on to lead normal lives (Sssh! Don’t tell anyone to do that! Oh no!), your misery will be refunded to you when you “bring the body” and the “mind follows” back to the “rooms”

  2. I heard a radio programme today. A cook prepared jugged hare to be eaten by the ‘celebrity’. He said that he added sherry or something. The ‘celeb’ revealed cheerily that he was ‘alcoholic’, and hadn’t drunk any alcohol since the eighties. Then the cook revealled that he, too was ‘alcoholic’. Then the presenter did the same. Interestingly he liked the taste, so presumbably now he is on a mammoth bender and will end up in the Priory/gutter.

  3. First, catch your hare.
    Marinade hare in red wine and blood for 24 hours. Keep some blood.
    Cook for hours. Add liver and put the lot through a blender. Put it in a jug. Top up with remaining blood. Hare is red meat, so serve red wine.

  4. Said ‘celebrity’ apparently takes only Communion wine. I like AAs like this, the ones who give the lie to the self-fulfilling prophecy that one sip leads to a lack of control.

    • Self fulfilling prophecy and scaring the life out of people who haven’t yet considered the true nature kind of person they are receiving such information from.

      That is the kind that needs to round up a good tale to tell when people are tired of listening to them say the same stuff like they got a flat tire and didn’t have to drink about it. They know better too.

      • Jill is here!!

        Be strong. You can make it. Remember, they cannot deprive you of protein to break you down, not yet……just remember that Simpsons episode with Homer chanting the old Batman song about “The Leader”….”na na, na na, na na, na na LEADER!!”. That somehow helped me…..

        • Jill, if you are put under any pressure, tell them that, ‘the only requirement is a desire to stop drinking. Do keep a diary; just write 2 lines after each meeting to look back at in March. Look out especially for what they say about people who have either left, died of alcohol/drugs or committed suicide, OR, appeared to have gone on to get on with life, the dry drunks them.

        • Perse, Your blog is great, I signed up. I think I have to sign up again before I can comment, tho. I promise you that I don’t snort when I laugh – but I snorted (more than once) when I read Klanboy!! The absurdity of it all is confounding.

          • You shouldn’t….but then I’m so bad at web stuff I can barely use google! I should post some more of the wacky stories…..haha….Klanboy and Elkwoman and the world’s seediest rehab romance ever.

            Next up, ChristianGirl! She can’t keep going to her “dealer” the pharmacist, because she’s a “Christian, and Christians don’t use drugs!”….or have sex with the first rehab guy they latch onto all over the campus? Hell no, Christian girls in recovery do it where you can see it ALL! (I really do love these people….and hope they’re doing just great still).

        • Hey Jill. I assume this is some kind of sentence. I don’t recommend this, but here’s what I saw one time. There was a man sentenced to AA. When he was forced to talk (and I will make this benign) he said in short that:
          1. There were festivities present.
          2. He partook in the festivities and
          3. He had a good time.

          No one really had anything to say to that.

          I don’t recommend abusing anything. But they had absolutely no reaction to it at all. There was no default for it I guess.

  5. I had a driver actually try to bully me off the road. Sounds odd, yes he was. He was on my butt so close I think I got a Hickey. The disturbing parts to this scenario is that a police car was two cars ahead and there was one two driveways down. I can’t even conclude what he was attempting so I pulled halfway into the bike lane and waved him by. He (still on my ass) shook his head no. Ok, this is going to be a long ride before we get to double lane traffic and I’m not going to stop. I tapped my breaks a couple of times he didn’t flinch. Finally, we got to an intersection and he was coming up on my left. I was fuming and ready for him. He, Mr Passive Aggressive, started slowing at my rear fender. He wasn’t going to come up to the intersection line which he so desperately craved 10 minutes ago. I hit the breaks and we were side by side and he starting yelling , ‘you must have voted for Obama over and over’. I said, ‘you must be an AA member’ and he took off like a bat out of hell. I remember from many years ago that there is a meeting hall not to far from where he started his intimidation. I’m going to scope out that meeting and see if his truck is there. Also, the timing coincides with the 12 noon meeting coming to an end. Pretty interesting. Obviously, one of our most stellar citizens attending meetings because he has ‘the desire’.

    • NOTE: The idiot was a male 6 foot 180 pounds & I’m the opposite and was minding my own business. Not trying to be a hard butt, just got fed up.

        • WHAAA! Hilarious. I always have a few extra HRC stickers…..though he’d probably not get it….I am known to share stickers with anyone, I just draw the line at my sharing my life story in front of a bunch of court ordered bikers (sorry, NA joke. Not defaming the AA crowd).

          • Hi Kan,

            You know, what’s wrong with a little privacy and dignity? The idea that one has to share personal aspects of their lives with strangers who healthy people would go out of their way to avoid is to open one self up to the criticisms of a room full of gossips, slanderers, and nut jobs. I’ve even heard of sponsors spilling sponsee secrets… what a system. YUK.

  6. Jill, read Blame’s contribution to, ‘Why I left AA’.
    How long will your scarf be by March?
    Massive, I do not use the words, ‘alcoholic’ or ‘alcoholism’. They are constructs of the cult. A hundred people may drink in a damaging way, and they will have a hundred different reasons. I think that CBT sounds the best option but, most importantly, the ‘alcoholic’ will need intensive deprogramming. Which is what we are here for.

    • WSS
      By March my scarf should be long enough to stretch “across the pond”….to you!
      Wow, great post by Blame! How is it that after only a brief period of cult attendance and zero participation on my behalf, I completely understand everything he was saying?
      Speaking of defining an “alcoholic” (I eavesdropped on your comment to Massive)… Prior to my sentencing, I had to take an assessment at a place owned and staffed by AAs. Of Course, the assessment led to me taking (paying for) 12 (twelve-coincidental?) hours of education and group therapy. So at some point I describe myself as a “social drinker” – meaning, I thought, that I drank while socializing, as opposed to self medicating. WRONG! I apparently had the definition of “social drinker” all wrong! A social drinker is one that can drink without consequence. Since I had the consequence of a dui, I was not a social drinker, but an alcoholic.

        • I like that better..ab-use, miss-use,over-use..issues. Seems that AA’s are very proud of the “alcoholic” label…but hush hush about their “spiritual” beliefs & practices. I have to find that Simpsons episode online.

        • I don’t like the term ‘alcoholic’ either. I just say, “I am powerless over alcohol”.

          I asked someone at a meeting the other day, “Just what the heck is a ‘spiritual disease’?”

          I have been in and around AA for many years now, and I really am more confused than ever before abut this ‘spiritual disease’ crapola.

          • Andy- I bought that crap for way too long too. It was my son that made me see the truth.

            Spiritual Disease is such 1930’s crap!

          • Disease thing is good for the insurance companies. The organization of dim wits just picked up on in unknowingly.

            There’s no spiritual disease.

            For those of them who know better it is a disgrace that they compare themselves to a poor diseased person and then wear it like a badge of honor. They are shameless.

    • OMG! Too funny, WSS!
      That telephone makes me wish I had a sponsor to call,
      “Hello. What should I wear today?”
      But now I have another food question!
      What is on that breakfast plate? I see bacon and eggs, toast and sausage links. I think (guess) those are baked beans to the right of the eggs? Sliced tomatoes -on the left? What are those two round things at 1-2 o’clock?

  7. I saw Massive on/at Occupy LA with a bullhorn. I’m sure she educated people and knowing her enlisted them. Way to go!!! Massive never threatens or wishes-SHE ACCOMPLISHES!!! I’m proud to be your friend and supporter.

    • me you too. Oh KAN…I just needed to rant and anyone can pick up the horn and talk at certain times of the day. I just got lucky. I had my long list of gripes and let it rip. I hope it doesn’t wind up anywhere…I might be embarrassed… but maybe not

      • Never, you have a good heart a strong healthy message, solutions and the willingness to help….how can that be embarrassing?

        What IS embarrassing is the fact AA has a multitude of complaints, the knowledge, means and opportunity to help their very members (the ones that had supported their sick system faithfully for decades) yet refuses to take any action.

        “A person who tries and fails is more admirable than a person who doesn’t try at all”

      • Are they going to be there on Nov 17, 2011. I can meet you for a business meeting and head to Occupy LA. I have a lot to say!!!! Something to think about. We both have such busy schedules, it may not happen until Dec/Jan. I don’t have your schedule in front of me. Shoot me an email.

      • I went down to occupy LA again on Sat and I spoke to a young new Journalist. Guess what she was a member of ? AA!
        She had a triangle around her neck and a tattoo of the AA symbol on her neck under her ear. She saw me starring at it. She giggled as I said, Well maybe you won’t want to cover my story. SHe told me she was non biased.
        I told her I was working on a Documentary about exposing criminal behavior in the addiction recovery industry!

        SO here it goes my imaginary sign. Im not going to bring this there because I think there are bigger issues to be addressed there. But if I occupy an AA clubhouse I guess it would say…

        EMPOWERED AMERICANS 2011 =the 99%
        Not Powerless =1935=helplessness

        Stop The 12 STEP INDUSTRY ABUSES
        in our Courts , Culture.

        Alcohol Rehab Reform NOW!
        Replace with Empowering Programs- not powerless made up rehabs & Bullshit.
        Demand Science based Cognitive treatment for Health issues around substances.

        I just came back from court where I watched a judge tell a person they had to attend 50 AA meetings. I was furious. He is making them do something that is illegal to do. SO I marched into The District Attorney’s Office and introduced myself and gave them my card asking to speaking to the Judges, lawyers and DA’s. Then I walked up to many lawyers and told them about our movement and handed out my postcard which you can see here and feel free to download and print if you need to.

        • (falls over backward)
          An aa tatoo? Which step is that?
          This is from JimmyG’s post, and I hope it is ok to repeat it,

          ‘I can’t talk to family or friends because I had told them clearly that my life was mortgaged ot AA’

          Poor tatooed woman.

          • Yes I wanna throw up when I see it. But Ryan and I have some ideas about how to change this insanity. Our Government has NO business funding a religious based program with a 5 % success rate and sending people there all the while AA headquarters and the judges …some know that they are sentencing the heavy hitting criminals. I am so mad about this I will work to change the laws for as long as it takes to expose, empower and change.

        • it is insane to me that a young, female reporter (you do not meet many ppl who go to journalism school who are dummies) would be in a-fucking-a. sucks. if she’s reading this now, honey, please think straight. yer not powerless!!!!!!!

          • AA owns a non profit Journalism school; not promotion just attract the right prepaid AA student. Named for the renown Alcoholic founders: AA College of Journalism, B.S. degrees only.

          • persehone E thanks for calling in.

            Jill I would love to talk with you about how a judge sent you to AA meetings. Are you in a state where it is already illegal to do so as well?

  8. Massive,
    Fantastic job with TAGGING the courthouse! ONLY MASSIVE CAN TAG A COURTHOUSE AND STILL WALK AWAY FREE =) If they do anything at the moment or not, at least they know how far we are willing to go……the courthouses. That’s where it begins and where it has to end!!!!

    P.S. I took care of that story I text you on. I think it may have done the job!

    • I just went up to lawyers and starting talking to them about the problem. It was fun. I went up to people who looked like they knew pp with problems. Everyone in Criminal Court is freaked out and has problems.

      Thanks KAN! I didnt tag. That’s illegal. Thats a ticket in LA.

  9. Hey, Everyone.

    We’ve put the ST blog back up (sans comments), and added two final posts. We’ll keep it up there as an archive.

    Have a good one!

  10. Wasn’t sure where to put this, but found it rather, um, tasteless to say the least! Pathway Family Center in Indianapolis is alleged to be a Straight, Inc. spin-off and has endured a few protests. Their website has a page now dedicated to their “critics”. They have no media links (those are on YouTube, etc.) but note how they’re attacking the people who are spreading the information:

    Reporting on their critics’ facebook activities (and whether or not they’re “still using”)? General digging up of dirt against these people? Posting forum quotes stating that the disease theory is garbage? What IS this crap?

    • Note what they say about writer Maia Szalavitz, introducing her with this statement:

      “An author and journalist, Szalavitz, a former injection drug user, is frequently quoted in, or has articles published, on , and other print and online media.”

    • P – Hi there,
      At the bottom of the home page, it says this site is a “private collaboration of graduate parents.” I guess not affiliated with Pathways proper. Yeah, hey, they’re rude…but I think it’s kinda funny that they (inadvertently) created a convenient one-stop-shop for all of this Pathway criticism to be read. It’s like AA having a link to Orangepapers on their website saying “read what our critics are saying about us.”
      Still, that crap IS B.S.

      • Yes, I finally noted that bit. My bad, there. Sorry. The 1st few pages I read seemed a bit personal for an actual site, but I still thought it was just their old site from when they were open & being protested by Straight survivors. Then I read the whole thing and started to feel it was even worse! I’d already seen the videos posted by one of the “critics” named on the site from local news media about SAFE in Orlando, this center, etc. This site never mentions the media coverage (negative) that’s posted online, oddly, just that these people are all a bunch of “addicts” and “drunks” still….wow.

  11. God won’t…snip… You were created… snip…delete….delete
    inappropriate post. Go somewhere else and blog.

  12. Hey just found this new site didnt know what happen to stinkin thinkin havent been there in awhile what extactly went down? Just go cut off from my last so AA firend 25 years sober howver she is on all kinds of meds. telss me i have to get sober for 6-12 months then we can talk because this so called person i consider a real friend told me she is focusing so much me and her sponsor and therapist told her to not speak to me anymore because i left those FU rooms and to never return. she said enabling. how funny is tyhat when her husband her sponsor and her therapist are all calling the shots. its either there AA way or no way. I am the worng FU one here and i have just about everyone deleted from my life who is in the program. Selfish ego narissictic bullshit. I wont say i am not hurt however i look at it as a blessing. mind you she wrote an email didnt even have the respect to call me. AA after 25 sober still behaving like some victim. just had to vent thank you

  13. Alex,

    Nice to hear another person vent. I am new to these blogs too and also heavily utylize them to express my frustration. I too cut myself off from everybody AA. A family member in AA sent me a polite email saying she missed me and when I responded that I was no longer in AA and opposed to it, I haven’t heard from her since. It’s a shame. It stole a lot of my life and some of my family. I hope if people continue to speak out things will change. I’ve become a little bit less concerned over what people think of me since leaving. I’m careful as to what I hear or read regarding anything concerning mental health or addiction, even on anti-AA forums like this. There are greedy, narcissitic people out there who prey on people who’ve had these issues. Good luck to you.

  14. Alex,
    That’s what happens and it DOES hurt! We think we have made good friends. When entering AA we are told we HAVE to change everything including our friends. So now our only so called friends are AA members, which are sponsor/group approved (our family is sometimes excluded if not on board and placed behind AA). When we decide to leave AA, we honestly believe we have cultivated a few good friendships within the program that can sustain our divisive beliefs.

    Some hang on for a while either to give the friendship a chance, while the majority stay to get information on you and your perceived failed status; are you drinking (validation for AA & good gossip about you). Ultimately, they DO want us to fail; if we don’t their world, beliefs and sanity are nonsensical and their lives are at stake. The Big Books says if cessation of AA occurs we will be institutionalized, jailed or end up in the morgue.

    An Alcoholic Anonymous member’s world is precarious; so many rules, no power over their own lives and constant negativity. This places the member on shaky grounds to maintain a relationship with a HEALTHY ex Alcoholic member without tarnishing their own reputation. Hence they have labeled us “Dry Drunks” to deter any followers and to discount our SUCCESS.
    Statics speaks for it self= AA 5% WORLD 95%.

    • Utterly absolutely thrilled to find these boards and blogs. I just left AA after many unsatisfying and frankly insane years..and I’ve been reading all these messages with my mouth ajar. Esp. This one!! Thank u thank u thank u for validating me!!!! I’m not crazy, sick, diseased, insane, or in denial. I’m a human being. I struggle….yes. But powerless?? No Sir! Soooo sick of the psycho babble doubletalk and narcissistic hypocriyical bs in “the rooms”. Today I am not drinking because I choose not to. Period.

      • There seems to be a process –

        In AA
        Sense something is not quite right
        Investigate where you really are
        Learn the truth
        Get the hell out of AA

        If there are 2 million members there must 10’s of millions that have gone through that process. A lot of us simply don’t return to make a “grand departure” speech because it is like trying to talk lemmings back from the cliff – it is meaningless. Eventually, most of them will go through the process like the millions before them. Gotta say though, there is validation, but also some anger for being duped by a very slick quasi-religious con that is full of lies and manipulation and very little truth. The more you dig, the more you see of how fake and made up it all is. Once you start seeing the obvious holes, they are everywhere. Bill Wilson was a sociopath and made most of it up as he went and I based my life on his bizarre ramblings for far too long.

  15. I just acted like Massive kinda. I was @ a Further show in Western Ma. tonight. They’re members of the Dead. Anyway.. They’ve got something called the Wharf Rats during the show. It is not AA, however, many members of Wharf Rats are AA members. They have meetings at intermissions. Whatever.

    My point: My bf encouraged me to go talk to them, to tell them about anti AA. It would not have been appropriate or at all cool to interrupt the whole deal, esp. as they were not AA specifically. But I did speak to two men. And I could not think of this site off the top of my head, so I gave the old stinkin’ thinkin’ website. I asked the two ppl I talked to (both were men) if they had any women friends who’d been harassed or, and they knew the term, 13 stepped. The second guy seemed a lot cool than the first. He was from Vermont. He talked about understanding the plight of the new woman, vulnerable, etc. But he did mention that it could happen anywhere. I did question, “But maybe more so in AA, right?” But then I let him know I did not want him to miss his meeting. Plus, these ppl. are cooler than reg. AA if only that they like the Dead (not that all Dead Heads are cool. They most certainly are not…)

    I woulda stayed for more of the meeting to get an idea of how strong the affiliation is. I am not really into the Dead; I only went to the concert, as the bf is a Dead Head. But I knew this: if I were going to have any sort of a good time at the concert , I needed to get away from ppl who were concerned with “SOBRIETY.” One show at a time.

    Not sure if Gunther knows

    • Hey Violet, I almost went to the Further show in Portland last Friday night but didn’t end up going. I’m a big Phish fan and they have “The Phellowship”. It’s not supposed to be affiliated with AA or NA but was using the NA format as far as I can tell. I’ve only been to one NA meeting so I can’t be sure. I’ve visited their table at Phish shows when I was still in AA. It was helpful at the time to know that amongst all of those heavy drug users there was a safe place to go. I will say it was straight up bizarre to be holding hands chanting the serenity prayer in the middle of a Phish show. It helped me at the time but the last few shows I went to I just stayed away from there, I was leaving AA and didn’t want to deal with it. I went to a 3 day Phish festival and stayed clean and sober the entire time. If anyone is familiar with that scene, it’s littered with any drug you could possibly want. I was proud of myself for doing that and remaining clean.. and I had a great time.

      • we almost woulda been there, too,in portland… but our son had a “dance” to go to. old man was @ the previous further show the night b4 in manchvegas.

        • Hey, that’s great, if you you guys are ever in Portland, let me know 😉 If you are cool with that of course. Yeah, cell phones/joints… who can tell anymore!

      • i know, i could grabbed a a bagga shrooms like eight times. and it is a hoot to look out into the audience and try to differentiate between the tokers and the cell phone users. the light looks the same in the dark.

    • Wharf Rats huh? I know some of those guys here in SF where I live. They are pretty nice. Not so preachy as some groups.

  16. Just need to vent. I have a bad habit or getting into debates with a particular group on a music site that has a “recovery” thread. They are all steppers and I can’t help but get into debates and such. “Non alcoholics’ chime in as well and call it a cult, ask why you have to believe in a higher power etc. Long story short, I am somewhat of a AA villian around there but I “keep coming back” for whatever reason. Sometimes people post about being on the fence about AA or that they have problems with it, to which I respond with my experience and that it is ok to not like AA and can even be quite healthy. Anyway one of these threads got out of control and they started calling me names. Idiot, dim-witted, not bright, narrow-minded, unwilling, angry, bitter and resentful etc. What the hell is wrong with these people? I don’t understand why I am the narrow minded one because I can’t get around all of the aspects of the program I find offensive, intolerant, useless or harmful to “take what I want and leave the rest”. Ugh, just pissed. I need to stop going there. Everyone have a good day.

  17. that “i’m not sure if gunther knows” above had to do with a homeless vet. but i decided not to post it. sorry for the mess it left .

  18. I just got off a two week stint of work with some AA’s. These AA folk got me this part time job in my specialty which I enjoyed for about five years. Going back as an X-AA caused some awkward feelings. I got the feeling that my colleagues were using AA to control me; I got the same impression from certain family members who need malleable servants. These people like me in AA because it makes me manageable. The problem I see at this point is the manageability makes me so pliable that I don’t live my own life. I get caught in a pattern of doing the next indicated thing which is frequently another person’s chore. I have a very strong instinct about the life I want to live and it does not include wearing a suit or the mass accumulation of money or things. I live in the city now and hate it. I want to go back to the desert where it is quiet and isolated. I have never been happier than when I was there. I had a feeling of belonging on the earth, my surroundings were natural and oh so beautiful. I am stuck here for now but will be able to leave in a year or two.

    • Hello,
      Do you mean you are going to meetings or are working with AA members? I find the more distance myself from them entirely, the better I feel. It’s like their dogma still has a grip on me even though I haven’t been to a meeting in months.

    • discolsure,
      i went back as an x AA, it was horrable. and the same managable.
      humbled crushed.
      when i think of how i was after i went back it makes me cringe now.
      i left again over a year ago this time im ok.
      i too have no interest in the acumulation of things. They couldnt get it that i didnt want a big house or car.
      and i didnt want to conform to dress .
      im a hippie type. keep myself clean but dont like suits or high heels.
      i live in a city and looking forward to the day when i can leave here and travel.
      i want to live near nature.

  19. ok I was at a therapy appointment with my hubby and she knows what I have been up to. She wanted more of my “Is 12 step now working for you ” cards. Wooo she said that she sees plenty of people who say that they do not WANT TO GO TO AA! Isnt there another choice.
    She grabbed them and said humorously “No I want more!”

    It was great.

    So please ask me I will send you 20-30 of them that all of us can pass out to our Dr’s Lawyers, business people, hairdresser’s. It all matters.

    or go to tools and download and print them your self on Vista print works well too.

  20. Right. I have only been involved in this cause because I Have been under the impression that I have been trying to get my monumental tit of a boyfriend out of and away from this ridiculous cult.

    I have just applied to see my medical records from 5 years ago.

    Apart from any thing else, and that would include the five years trying to get my tit of a boyfriend out of this duck-face inducing cult, I am absolutely incandescent at the cost that this farago might (has) cost the taxpayer.

    I am reading stuff about ME and my massive refusal to get involved with these idiots.

    Decon, if you are reading this, would you send me an email, or GK2, or ftg, wrt the amazing Alice in Wonderland notion of ‘denial’.

    Jill, I was intending to leave a light hearted message to you along the lines of a warning; from my reading of st, it seems that people get involved with this cult with a cynical heart but end up being sucked in, so I wanted you to beware.

    But I am so angry that if you listen to the BBC you may hear that I have eaten Wales. I have practically munched out my own teeth.

  21. I have just been on the phone for about an hour with a ‘healthcare professional’. (called Kevin, Monica!) He is going to meet me with one of his colleagues to discuss the situtation. He suggested meeting at my house, or at a venue of my choice so (could not resist) making the meeting place a pub. (It is not a ‘bar’, like Cheers, more of a big sofa-open fires-overprized coffee venue, but the devil in me insisted that I have two ‘healthcare professionals meet me in a pub.

    I apppear to be taking this piss beyond my own imagination.

  22. I may pass out at the idea of discussing the ops, st etc with two professionals in a pub. Could this be an indication that they might be afraid that I could sue them? In which case, what do you all want?

    (And if hs or mfc is reading this, then I do sympathise with the obscene (OBSCENE) use of your taxes. Two of them! In a venue of my own choosing! Under strict condition that the meeting (IN THE PUB!) goes ahead if they have both read the ops and st essential reading).

    We will be sticking to lime and soda, as if you needed to know that, but, after 5 years of wanting to discuss this woo, it amuses me that the venue is a pub.

  23. (that faint thud was the sound of wss keeling over with amusement that she is going to meet two ‘healthcare professionals’ in a pub. I have insisted that they read the ops and the essential reading from st before I meet them in a pub. What other essential reading should I insist on before this meeting? Cause and effect, do you have any ideas beyond the Hestor and Miller stuff? I would appreciate your input.

    This bloke had not heard of the ops or st or ‘muckraking the 12 step movement’.

  24. Jill/ Massive/ whomever, I seriously want to compile a list of required reading for these people. I have insisted upon them reading the ops (although not the letters, just the ;don’t miss!’ bits would be ok, the essential reading from st, and not all of the posts; I had a re-read yesterday and the posts get a bit tiresome. I want to cull annazed/ml/lucy, but those seem to have got buried beyond a reasonable expectation to ask a layperson to plough through.

    ‘More revealed should be on the list.

    Not sure what else. This person was completely unaware of the exposeaa movement so it is a bit of a blank sheet.

    Monica’s site appears to have the shock factor, which has worked so far.

    Which is pitiful.

    • You gave them my letter, the letter to professionals, Paul Clearys letter and the stories?

      Hank HAyes new book “YOU’VE BEEN LIED TO…available on Amazon I have been reading is great. The first half all he does is expose and he has done extensive research.

      Let me know how I can help more if I can. ALso I too am going to my DR and I am going to drill her on what she knows about addiction when I go. Period!!!!

  25. Jill, I have aske massive to pass on my email to you, if that is ok, but it is only to share the details of the (not a pub, I now see) eighteenth century Coaching Inn, which is my chosen venue to discuss AA. xx (thud) I would appreciate anyone’s suggestion of required reading before I meet them.

    (Rebecca Fransway’s 12 Step Horror Stories. BlameDenial’s Youtube stuff, especially the post-suicide comments)

  26. This is all a bit odd, but in Britain healthcare is free, so it might be differnt to America. I have had had no involvement with the nhs for the last 5 years, but I had a weird skin infection in September (too much information for you all) and needed antibiotics (this is all finished now, and was not really a bother at the time; just served to establish a relationship with a doctor, which I documented on st).

    The doctor rang me at home today, for over an hour. He is my age and he speaks to me on an appropriate level. I have had very little involvement with the cult apart from five years ago. I think that we had a fairly good conversation, and I know that I channelled ftg, in terms of dealing with bs.

    I am really not sure how the healthcare system works in America. In Britain they seem to ram it down your throat. I have not been involved in this system since Nov 06, but I appear to be on the receiving end, and I want to find out the cost, of this abject nonsense.

    I am really not sure what to make of this.

    I would be very very interested to know the cost of these ‘doctors ringing me up for an hour’. and ‘two senior health profesionals arranging to meet me in a pub’ farrago.

    This is all a bit odd because these are events from November 06.

    Hey ho. Big wave to GK2 and Violetxx

  27. General question for all:
    Do you think that AA truebelievers read the anti-AA literature?
    Mondotuna did, and there are a few on the Orange Blog.
    If they are aware of the facts, the history, the lies and the assaults, how can they continue to be involved.
    (None of the doctors or health workers that I have gone to the trouble to educate have been aware of the anti-AA stuff, but then they are generally not fanatical members of a whackadaisy cult.

    Perhaps someone who still attends could answer this.

  28. I need a collection of AA slogans if anyone cares to participate.

    I will start it with, “Your best thinking got you here”.

    Write as many as you wish; fill up a whole page, call your old sponsor (maybe there are new ones since we have departed and decided to live a happy full life).
    Greatly appreciated-ME

  29. Funny, but one of the things that got me the most about this entire system (meetings, treatment, etc.) is not what they were asking me to participate in in terms of myself. That I didn’t like either. Self-identification as an addict for life, a bundle of character defects, the unhealthy living in the problem constantly. I obviously wasn’t game for that either, but it was what they were asking me to participate in regarding others that bothered me on the most fundamental level–or at least that’s not what I was able to reject as just myself. Asking me to either participate or to merely sit back and watch as people were drowning in their own circumstances (often fatally), to sit back and watch as others were attacked on what were really personal grounds in the guise of “helping their recovery”, asking me to “let the experts handle it” while people were denied adequate medical care, all of this. It was (and still is) intolerable to me, and on a very deep level. And in every case it was not ever necessary, certainly not for any of these people’s “recovery”. But you cannot ask someone to participate in such a system and then not expect them to speak out in their outrage about it. It doesn’t work that way.

  30. Per,
    Thank you. Exactly where I was headed with this project. You explained and summed it up beautifully. Now I need the quotes to validate what you said, where I want to go and interlace the experiences with the program. Thus showing the negative impact of these “cute” slogans and how the members/sponsors/bullies/therapists/etc. use them to ostracize, belittle and shame the independent member to do what they deem appropriate. SICK SICK SICK

  31. Here is one that had me confused for many years:


    One of the affects the brain washing had on me in AA was; for many years I thought having secrets was wrong and I even experienced some discomfort if I did. Since leaving AA over a year ago, I have recently come to realize that having secrets is perfectly normal, healthy and I rather like it. Experience has taught me that Sharing secrets with steppers is a huge mistake and will create major problems in your life. When I realized this, I was extremely pissed off. I consider this major progress.

    • What does that mean, “we are only as sick as our secrets”? Really kinda of a stupid slogan that is supposed to be slick but in reality it means nothing like the rest of those idiotic sayings. The only saying or slogan that rings true for me is ” even a parrot can quote the Big Book” That one I understand!

  32. Frank,

    I have to tell you that in 30 years, I never heard that one but you made an excellent point. I think the old timers are beyond repair. I dont think you could find a wrench to fit those nuts.

    This one really brought back bad memories;


    I suppose that would be true if you consider confusion and depression to be a part of recovery.

    • oh yea. That was said a long time ago. AND even though I was a teen.
      I thought to myself that they were nuts. I never believed that.

    • Amy,
      Been a while since I heard “there is no such thing as a bad meeting” When I think of sitting through another meeting, well, they just all seem so lame and irrelivant to actually helping anyone. They are just a total waste of time, meeting up with people that are there to take advantage of others……… People there that I don’t want to associate with, do they say anything about terrible or dangerous meetings?

  33. Carolyn,

    Sorry about the internet problems. I was down for a week not long ago. If Mr. AA acceptance and serenity had let me handle it, we would have been up the next day. Stupid idiot !!!!!!!!
    Guess I should be grateful because I dont have to pay the bill.

    Good subject you have brought up and an important one. Those slogans are a bunch of endless contradictions and lies. They lead a person to talk to themselves. Very damaging to the mind of a vulnerable person over time.

    Happy Thanksgiving to you. As far as I know, I will be home thanksgiving day. Maybe we can say hello, if your on the computer at all. Bye for now.

    • Amy,
      I’m being told I have used too much memory and need to purchase more. I say print and delete! I constantly get the swirling death beach ball. It takes forever to write, send or delete. That damn ball is bouncing all over.

      Thanks for the good subject comment. My purpose for gathering (which you expedited tremendously) was to see how many were actually positive, helpful and re-affirming or self fulling. I knew I didn’t receive any and wondered if there were any and finally what effect did these negative slogans have on AA members and especially the vulnerable newcomer’s lives.

      Let’s put it AA way and use a slogan “You get more Bees with Honey than Vinegar”.
      Meaning, they would have had a healthier, happier member without all the belittling and negativity! But then, we wouldn’t have been able to be brainwashed as easily!

      WSS they are not in the BB, because they could be sued for an array of different charges. This way AA can deny any involvement with the development and implementation of the harmful slogans. A parent could be charged with emotional abuse if they were caught raising their children the way AA has fostered it’s members.

      Ryan, I hope you are doing well. I have been thinking a lot about you =) God/Buddha/Tree/doorknob you all a happy holidays

  34. Who invented the slogan nonsense? They are not in the BB.
    I have heard people say this sort of thing, ‘As they say in AA…’, and then quote some of this nonsense if it is anything more than a silly nursery rhyme.

    There is a list on st of, ‘unofficial’ slogans. But how did the,’official’ ones become, ‘official’?

  35. I am the founder of the Grass Roots Movement to Make AA Safer.

    I will defend anyone who has been victimized by any AA member.

    I am a victims right activist for anyone who has been harmed by an AA bully or abused or harassed, or raped.

    I am an advocate for empowerment for anyone who wants empowered sobriety. Wait…is there a better word for sobriety? Abstinence. ????

    What about those that want to try moderation. I want you to feel welcome here.

    I dont’ believe everyone is a Black and White situation where you have to be Abstinent the “AA way” for example: Kenneth Anderson Hams Harm Reduction. I know many are able to drink moderately after leaving AA. I choose not to, but this is not always the case and I am surely not an AA NAZI.

    Wait …it’s none of their business either if another adult decides that they are going to do it their way. Like live your own life. WOW as I write this I get what a bunch a freaks some AA members are with the bullying, judgmental aspect.

    I wrote a letter to the judge who sentenced the pedohphile to AA mmetings in Nebraska that Anti denial had up on the website
    Natural Accountability website.

    Walter, a VET who had some trouble up in MASS. I will be following up with those women who bullied him with their AA jargon like they are GOD! Give an AA member a Social Worker degree or a phd or an MSW , look out. The arrogance level can be off the charts. However I know a few who are really good people.

    For the most part ….they need a good wake up call.

    SO, I encourage everyone to start filing repots, making calls , sending emails to anyone ‘s superior’s and filing a complaint. Make sure to file a complaint with the state attorney General in Ny State against Alcoholics ANonymous and in your own state against your local rehab, treatment center or AA local chapter.

    here is the link…

    address needed;

    Alcoholics Anonymous
    475 Riverside Dr 11th Floor
    New York, New York 10115

    Phyllis Halliday

    President- General Service Manager

    Fill in, print, then snail mail. PLease forward to anyone you think will also send it.

    thanks so much

        • I saw it on a VET’s truck (bumper sticker); extremely poignant! It says it all and AA better take heed. They are skating on thin ice with all the illegal activity, criminals and lack of help crisscrossing every state in our Nation. They may be able to ignore one’s cry for help, however, it’s hard to shush thousands; it’s going to get very noisy. I don’t care if they are sleeping with the courts, rehabs and churches; AA’s luck will run out. They are already getting admonished by other countries complaining that the US isn’t taking care of their own; U.S member’s have been going to other countries AA headquarters for help. This was in a 64 page report issued Oct 2011 from a country overseas.

    • thankyou for your post i will be writeing to AA at this address and make a formal complaint in past i wrote to the area of AA where i live i had no reply i have opted for harm reduction and may go to there web site

  36. I found this on Yahoo; “50 secrets a Nurse won’t tell you”

    8. “When you tell me how much you drink or smoke or how often you do drugs, I automatically double or triple it.” — A longtime nurse in Texas

    Isn’t that ethical, reassuring and compassionate! I believe she is projecting and will stay as far away from Texas hospitals as possible. A nurse like this can cause major health insurance issues that follow a patient.

  37. Check this out; This man is a “RECOVERED ” alcoholic. I repeat, “recovered”. He will die if he does not receive a liver transplant. However, he has been forced to stop using medical prescribed marijuana for pain and other symptoms and attend AA meetings, in order to even be considered a donor recipient. On top of facing the final stages of liver cancer (hallucinations) he has to endure AA meetings and be exposed to all the Germs when he is terminally ill.,0,3264105.story

  38. That poor man! What do they mean by, ‘counselling’? Can you contact him? He must have read the ops, etc.

    Carolyn, it is normal for doctors to add another third onto what ever amount that patients tell them that they smoke/drink. Whether it is one small sherry at Christmas or a bottle of gin a day. The recommended maximum in Britain is 14 units a week for women and 21 for men. That would be one homemade gin and tonic for my mother. And they have a couple of glasses of wine with about three meals a week. So my mother is already well over her recommended dosage. Doctors know that people are not going to admit to drinking over the government advice. I definitely used to lie about how much I used to smoke.

    • WSS INC,
      I guess I either confess I’m in the cult or let the medical staff have their way with my personal info. I wonder what else they alter??

  39. If I were sentenced to AA, I would end up suicidal. It is so difficult trying to explain why I think that AA causes suicide. The standard answer is, ‘But tjhey were alcoholics’, or, ‘how do you know they wouldn’t have done it anyway?’ amd, ‘but they were depressed’.

    Someone said something interesting recently about seeing suicides in AA but none when he was, ‘in the bar’. Does anyone know much about suicides of drinkers who have NOT attended AA?

    Or, who would rather drink themselves to death than go to AA, if they had a normal reaction to this ghoulish cult? I know one person who, when 12 Stepped in hospital, said he would rather clean windows than go to the cult. And he immediately drank himself to death on his return home. This story was told to me by the 12 Stepper.

  40. Massive said;

    “Is he upset about going to AA”

    I dont know but I would assume that he is because it wasnt his idea. Sending him to AA makes no sense in this situation but then it makes no sense any time. I cant help but think if he were a high profile person or had celebrity status, he would not be faced with these problems in addition to his illness.

  41. Amy,
    Got on a little here. Take a glace @ Gunthar’s site. Some Humor-catch up with you soon and glad to hear Sarah is doing better. =)

  42. WSS,

    I too have been pondering that. I referenced the fact to someone I messaged recently, conveying that I believe it’s the conflict between the believed sinful core of a person striving in vain to achieve the moral ideal presented in “recovery.” I think attempting to reconcile these too disparate things (which are completely bogus by the way) generates quite a bit of mental/emotional suffering in the indoctrinated individual. I imagine that within that rigid framework of no escape they think they’re in, suicide seems appealing and perhaps even rational, serving to cease the prolonging of irremediable suffering. Something to ponder. I know many are too polite to say that AA causes suicides just as they are in calling it a cult (but I don’t think beating around the bush is going to stop the harm). Cognitive dissonance probably plays a role in intensifying depression too, as well as the frustration HONEST atheists must feel when told to do the steps or die.

  43. Hi Ryan, Nice to see you here. I agree. You are not the first to say that AA causes suicides.

    If you read and search suicide we began a thread that talked about all the suicides we knew. Look around the date June 30, 2011. That is when my brother in law killed himself and I posted it that night.

    The Daniel Inouye Case in Hawaii was brought to fruition by his son because he died in the mean time. Some one had alot of passion to make this stick.

    Take care RYan.

  44. I agree with you, Ryan. The last two suicides I heard of were both oldtimers who had not had a drink in years. Apparently their mistake was, ‘not going to enough meetings’. A few people at st said that they left because of the cognitive dissonance.

    Ryan, would you keep a look out for suicides of people with drink problems who have NOT gone to AA? I personally think that AA itself causes suicides. Especially if they have followed the fairly predictable path of starting out being hyper-enthusiastic. And if their family have been infected with al-anon.

    In this case, as JamesG wrote in leavingaa, the person who has decided to leave AA is stuck. If their family are brainwashed through the ‘aftercare’ of al-anon, which preaches that AA is the way, the truth and the light, their objection to AA will be viewed as, ‘denial’. Of course, none of the origninal problems or circumstances or personal problems that caused them to drink in the first place will be given air space. By this stage, the problem will be around the tricky situation of leaving a cult, a cult into which your closest family and friends have been suckered.

    (waves to Jill! Is she still knitting?)

    • hi wss. jill, you knit? (or is this a joke, soorry.) i crochet. i know , i am a boring dork; but i love it. it is my protestant rosary. i want to learn to knit, as i like how the stitches look closer, while the crochet is a bit too bulky for my taste. peace and love to all. xo

  45. I used to say ‘i’d rather die from drink than go back to a/a”, the lack of REAL empathy for fellow human beings was shocking,i knew of a few who commited suicide,the response from the steppers was “they didn’t do the steps”

    I’m sober 5 years, no groups or anything, i just done what the majority do who stop drinking (just stopped)it was a struggle for a while but it got easier,you don’t hear about most of these people who just stop because they are getting on with life and are now non drinkers.

    There are a lot of surveys online that show that groups and therapy are no better than just stopping on your own, but the recovery industry doesn’t want people to know as they make a fortune from other people’s misery.

    • welcome mick! I think it’s important for people who want to stop to hear this. It’s the truth.

      I know a woman who is struggling here in LA. Can you post your story on Why I left AA thread?

  46. The Best-Kept Lifestyle Secret in America

    The most underreported lifestyle story is the fact that the majority of American alcoholics who make successful recoveries — sixty per cent — do it outside of AA. [Source] If you ask Dear Abby, Dr. Phil, and any other number of other media lifestyle authorities, all you hear is “go to AA.”

    Every year, thousands of people who have a problem with alcohol take that advice and try AA. A huge percentage of them get turned off and drop out. According to AA’s own membership surveys, out of 100 who start AA, only 5 are still attending a year later. [Source].

    Almost nobody writes about the 95 per cent who dropped out of AA, or about the unknown numbers who never approached AA at all. The general assumption seems to be that they drink themselves into oblivion. That can’t be true. Sixty per cent of alcoholics who reach the five year sobriety level — statistically, a benchmark for stable lifetime recovery — did it without AA.

    The majority of people who find long term sobriety stand in the darkness. Only very rarely do their voices find print [Example]. That’s a shame. Alcoholism is a major killer. Those sixty per cent have found solutions that work for them. Shouldn’t we try to find out and let the world know what those solutions are

  47. Oh, this feels so good. I sometimes get overwhelmed and have to stop even thinking about “recovery stuff”. I stop posting, writing, even checking my recovery related email. Then I can start fresh again.

    Today I finally (and it’s been quite a while!) cut open the return envelope to my last treatment center containing my reply that yes, I’m clean and sober, and no, I don’t want to be “recognized” for it with a medallion ceremony, certainly not at the center itself, but not even by mail. My “thanks, but no thanks” reply on their form. I wrote and enclosed today, before mailing it, a letter I wrote requesting that they end the abusive confrontational “therapies” they practice, specifically (but not limited to) “Hot Seat”. I gave my reasons for why I find it damaging and abusive, then I gave HAZELDEN’S. I mean, honestly, if even Hazelden has decried the practice, it should mean something to these people, right? That is where they get their literature, after all.

    It just feels really, really damned good to have mailed that letter, and I just had to share. Thanks!

  48. WASHINGTON (Reuters) – British-born journalist and atheist intellectual Christopher Hitchens, who made the United States his home and backed the 2003 U.S. invasion of Iraq, died on Thursday at the age of 62.

    Maybe never a poster boy for sobriety but absolutely a strong voice against the evils of Sobriety Cults and other religions. R.I.P.

  49. The kidney donor stuff is completely outta control. i do not really have time to read ppl’s posts, but miss all of you and hope all are well and are holding up ok due to holiday stress. weirdly, i am doing well. i am broke and am not working, but feel happy. it is weird. i guess i have some hope. 🙂 peace to all of you.

    • violet- I dont think so. I believe Ilse is writing her book and mark living his life blog free. I miss ST so much sometimes too. Happy Holidays!

  50. hey-
    just want to thank everyone for taking the time to process leaving the cult outloud. My husband and I left the cult after almost 2yrs (although I have been exposed to it because of my mother for over 10yrs) and the only people we still have contact with are in the cult and either trying to lure us back, or accuse us of every sin in the book (not sure whose book- certainly not mine lol)
    we have been socialy isolated at the suggestion of the group, other than these people, and the grandparents I provide care for, we have no one. we are attempting to reastablish connections with dear old friends, but until they forgive us our neglegence, or we find new ones, I am feeling very alone. Glad to see there are others who have left, and are better for it. please email me if you have advice… we are kinda scared…not of using, but the realization that we have no one hurts.- Call me Baby Doll

  51. so is there any reason that yall are ignoring me? is it the holidaze ? I understand that otherewise: why will you not support a sister in need?

    • Welcome Melyssa!

      Maybe find new friends. I did. ALthough because I was in AA for a long time I did have some “real” friends in Hawaii from those early years. Now in LA thats not the case. I know a few who are real, but truthfully I dont believe in that way of thinking anymore and Actually I am so sick of “AA SPEAK” if anyone does it I stop them and tell them I dont believe in this or that.

      Since I left last May 1 called. A few sent an email and a few facebooked a hey…

      I feel it’s an illusion created by the meeting atmosphere. Its not true. Sitting in a small room with 50 woman of many ages each talking 3 minutes to share just about yourself is not communicating.

      Im sorry this is happening to you and your husband. Blogging helped. But making new anti AA friends from blogging who I could get together in person has really helped. ANd attending some Smart Meetings really help me too. There are millions of people who came to AA , stayed for 3 -9 months and left never to return because they hated it and it didnt work. SO the truth is there are many who are out there who feel like we do.

  52. Baby Troll,
    A bit passive-aggressive and pushy. Maybe that’s why your old friends weren’t standing in line waiting for your return. If you are that desperate and in such a time crunch; may I suggest a crisis hotline. I hear from some ex sponsors they have a team that take their calls within the hour-sounds like your time frame. Good luck

    Good Call!! What a Narcissistic demanding wakaloon!

  53. I feel like I’m going psycho; I just called Amy-Sue-my apologies. Didn’t mean to confuse anyone. At least I know the difference between committing a wrong and owing an AMENDS; something the 12 steppers spout off frequently about but it never comes to fruition. I guess they are full of hot air and slogans.

  54. Carolyn,

    You forgot arrogance, most cannot manage their own miserable lives, but are quick to tell you how to run yours! Then there are the panhandlers and thieves, wait…. Sounds like I just gave the definition of a Sponsor!

    • Yes I can see everyone’s ip address. I was busy with family and Christmas. I guess I missed this.
      Love seeing you guys here! Merry Merry Christmas.

  55. Frank,

    Well, I felt it necessary to respond to Melyssa (aka. Baby Doll) because clearly being ignored, disturbed her. Wonder what happen to her?? Maybe she off attending AA meetings. You know, the holidays are a trigger for an alcoholic.

    Merry Christmas Frank

    • Thank you Amy, Merry Christmas to you as well. That Baby Troll sounded like a real piece of work. I enjoyed the way in which she was handled.

      • She has probably been up all night attending a non stop Alka-thon. You know being around your true friends during the Holidays is extremely comforting to the still struggling.

      • Frank,

        To be honest; I wasnt positive but I was 99% sure so I could not resist. When your sane for the most part, some individuals are very difficult to understand. However, with age and wisdom, I am getting better at it. Also, living with a stepper keeps you from letting your guard down.

  56. Ryan,
    It’s called the “Scrooge Syndrome”; anyone remotely happy outside the rooms has to be done away with and turned into the miserable sap of a human being that themselves have become by paying their allegiance to the almighty Bill W. Having to spend your holidays at the “alcothon” and serving sexual deviants, criminals and egotistical assholes, whom have never left their ego at the door, is depressing in it’s self. What do they talk about for over 24 hours??? They are so quick with the slogans and gossiping; they shoot their wad in the first hour and have to suffer with the program and the drunk-a-logues for the remainder of the time.

    I on the other hand, I have founded two charities and today I get to do my favorite one. The charity is called: “Christmas on the Second Floor”. I have a professional Santa Clause deliver new stuffed animals to the children’s hospital. It’s heart breaking and incredibly rewarding at the same time. I AM MAKING A DIFFERENCE unlike my participation in the alcothon, where all I heard were complaints about the food. What a selfish group of people. I get to give a frightened child a companion for when their parents or nurses can’t be there. A few years ago, I had to shave the fur off a couple stuffed animals for two patient’s (their immune system would be jeopardized-cancer & leukemia) and they weren’t allowed to have one. That was unacceptable, so we shaved them. The kidz were happy, because they looked just like them!! =) That’s freaking Christmas—CARING, GIVING & LOVING!! Not putting more $$ in a can at the Alcohothon, gossiping and complaining, but making sure everyone sees you there–SICK!!


    Who said, “Leave and let leave”? I like that…….impossible for the butt-in-skis. I will add that to my real life Lexicon.

  58. Amy,
    Thank you. Like I said it’s a double edge sword with your emotions! It’s amazing what it does for the child! Stuffed animals get band aids too, take meds, are their confidant and relieves parents from feeling guilty for not being there 24/7. It just gives me the goose bumps-that’s all I can say. No meeting or interaction with any member or the self serving alcohothon (whom helps no one) can beat this; I wish you were here to experience it, as well.

    • Carolyn, now that is truly helping another person, not just a bunch of phony lip service like we received in the cult.

      Merry Christmas

        • Carolyn,

          You know sitting in meetings can be awfully hard on you. I think some “Preparation H” would be a very useful, thoughtful gift.

          • Carolyn

            I think we should have a contest. Who can come up with the best christmas gift for a stepper. Would you like to be the judge. I was trying to think of a prize for the winner. The only thing I could come up with is; the winner gets first shot at the next troll that drives through.

  59. Frank,

    One person on orange, in particular, is behond Nasty; thats certifiable. Talk to you later, going out to run a few errands. Been working so hard lately, Im looking forward to doing nothing this evening but relaxing.

  60. Ha. Good for you Carolyn K. What a nice way to spend the time. What’s nice is you can do wonderful things like that and not broadcast them in church basements to people who think they have a disease (which they don’t).
    Amy, yes i did get the name of the book you reccomended and will be checking it out shortly. Looks very enlightening. Glad to see it had some negative reviews on Amazon. Most true writings are detested by know-it-all Americans. The more the better. Steppers love to post their opinions on the internet as much as possible (after having had their “spiritual awakening” of course). Thank you.
    Merry Empowered Christmas!

    • Ryan,
      Thank you! Many years ago I asked my group of close to 200 members for donations; guess how many I got??? You’re right a big fat ZERO like themselves. They are a selfish bunch of “Baby Doll” nit wits. That says it all.
      Have a very Merry and Peaceful Christmas

  61. sorry this post belongs here.

    I am overwhelmed by what I am reading, here and on the orange papers forum. WE need a conference room, some money and an executive assistant, a research analyst, money to pay them and about 8 solid board members that meet weekly.

    WE need a weekly talk show on TV to discuss all that we are discovering. So we can let the public in on the big secret that AA is not a GOLDEN CHILD.
    WE need a good HBO series that understands all of this and writes a great show exposing it as a sub plot.
    We need to form support groups, face to face in every city for ex steppers that want to just meet up with other anti aa folks.
    Sorry for my rant but there might be some ideas worth implementing here.
    my hubby is sick I am got the sniffles again.

    btw there is an ip from phoenix…
    a gift to a stepper…Hank Hayes book or a piece of paper with blogs like
    orange papers, stinkin thinkin and expose aa and my site. Many more.

    If all of us went to a bigger meeting and just shared truthfully and in that share talked about orange papers, leaving aa, stininthinkin and Smart and Rational and WFS and SOS in the share we would all carry our message and they would all go home a google this shit.

    Just an idea.

    • Oh Good Lord. I’ve just been reading this site, then this thread and went over to delphi to read Mondotuna? He still believes himself to be above everyone else. Sorry but the way he resorted to personal attacks on Gunthar makes him a lot lower on the ‘how to treat others’ example list. God he makes me sick. Also read the ‘irks and quirks’ post from the cat and he did the same there. The cat was asking the group to get on on track and Jerry agreed, BUT and there’s the BUT, he just couldn’t help but go BACK to slandering anyone outside AA. Here’s his quote. Talk about looking in the f’n mirror. Sorry, just venting. I’m not a member here, just read now and then and hate the AA higher than thou attitude.

      “”As far as the anti (Auntie?) crowd, I’ve yet to see one nastier than I was when new. By and large I find them tepid, repititious and lame. Maybe I’ll give lessons on how it’s best done at some future point. Like anything else in life, endless whining about something one is not involved in isn’t required to be boring and juvenile. I believe I could get that point across at the level they could understand it. But, maybe not.””

  62. lioness242 1:22 am
    To: ALL (1 of 1)


    Wanna address our “anti a.a.” inclined visitors with this note:

    Don’t post any more “hate mail” here… please! Yes, you have a right to your opinion.. and yes, there are enough kindred spirits around who love your point of view–and there’s a plethora of forums where people feel the same way.. that’s what draws them. But this forum isn’t one of them, as you may have noticed by now.
    Asking you to please respect this and refrain from posting any more “hate mail” here.

    Just posted a bit of my history with certain observations I was making, for a while.. which were a lot like what you talk about. [841.3] Not “deaf and dumb” now… even though an eye-opener I recently had has made for a bit of changed perspective on a few things. Just need you to know that the hostility that oozes from so many of the ‘tossed around’ posts is ill-placed here; valid concerns are not falling on deaf ears, here. Not all are ignorant of issues in A.A.’s fellowship-family.. no need to bombard this forum to “wake ppl up” to that.

    Some of these issues will be talked about here–without the hatred and hostility. So if you can manage to put those aside you’re welcome to participate in the discussions [most certainly welcome also to share how you ended up feeling the way you do]. I’d like to not see the same old propaganda getting spewed all over the place though.. so IF you’re interested in actually talking about certainly disturbing matters you’re welcome to to so, with us.

    Please, do me the courtesy to let me start the ball rolling & give topics some actual thought.

    In the meantime please respect my sincere request for restraint. Thanks, neighbors!

  63. From: lioness242 Dec-29 5:30 pm
    To: ALL (1 of 7)


    Been thinking.. about how long I actually wanna ‘watch in tolerance’ this constant plastering of anti A.A. crap “my new found friend” –whom I invited to check out RF, under the impression she was looking to find out if she wanted to stop drinking– keeps wanting to toss around here. And to be honest: I’m getting fed up with this. No point except wanting to aggravate.. from what I can see. No interest in quitting drinking, just in scattering more crap.

    I’m sorry the person in question was, or feels, so hurt that there seems no end to the hard feelings.

    But I am fairly sure this group did not cause the aggravation in her heart and soul. Just became subject to venting and venom.. which reminds me of a story about a man walking home after a long winter’s day and a snake calling to him: “I’m freezing, I”m freezing.. please don’t leave here here, I will die.” Man has compassion, picks up the little creature that’s cold as ice, puts it between his chest and his shirt to warm it and goes on his way. Snake wakes up after a while and jams those poisonous fangs in so close to his heart that it ain’t long before he lays dying. As he thinks about how he’ll never see his family he says to the snake, upset and hurt: “Why did you do that to me? I picked you up and cared for you.. and now you’re killing me for it?” Snake looks at him and says, “You knew what I was before you picked me up,” then slithers away. (Moral of story: whatever you need it to be.)
    Didn’t realize it was poisonous.. he could’ve said. Kinda like I feel right now.

    Didn’t “come back” wanting to share good stuff just to get buried in crap. Not looking to deal with this.. or bring it here. Sorry guys, my bad. All out of tolerance already.. towards ppl thinking they can do what they like and nothing can stop them. Out of patience with ‘having to watch’ a spiritual Program I cherish get picked apart here, and people I love and respect too… for no reason I can see. What’s the point when you seem to have no point except to do this because you can? Myself have always tried to ‘extend the hand’ if I can.. or go the extra mile when opportunity arises.. for folks getting sober.

    NOT seeing a desire to get sober here, just a love for drama. There’s a time and place where one ought to continue being tolerant.. as long as it takes or you can stand it. Thriving group, big group, can take disruption longer than small and somewhat dormant group. Not gotten off to a good start yet in going back to getting more active.. so no, not up for this nonsense on group level or personal level. Long year of a lot going on and reserves getting depleted in every way… not overly tolerant right now, and not apologizing. Cause online or off there’s a time and place where enough is enough. IMO that time has come. I say:

    Enough already! Censor or ban.. or whatever other option there are.

    • Why are you even writing here. This blog is for people who want to leave AA, have left AA or never liked it and were coerced to attend 12 Step.

      Also, are you drunk….your writing sounds like you are. What’s that about.

      Your attitude I find perplexing. Why would you care to come to a site that is about Leaving AA? Let’s look at all the reasons I have posted and the hundreds of stories of Sexual Predation, Rape, Violence, Criminals attending now unknown to even AA old-timers who are living in the dark about who is coming to meetings, AND THE FACT THERE ARE GREAT ALTERNATIVES TO AA LIKE;

      SMART Recovery, SOS, Rational Recovery, Women for Sobriety, Hank Hayes ON TRACK AND BEYOND and Hams Harm Reduction. Sorry my finger hit the cap button…

      Spiritual Program my ass. How is it that a women gets grabbed in a meeting and the fellow AA members tell her to have a better sense of humor. “Get more spiritual ” they said. Go to women’s meetings they said.

      If the guy did that in the Local City Hall Meeting they would all run to her aid and call the police. They even physically grabbed me when I was still going and handing out the “Make AA Safer Pamphlet” which BTW over 62 meetings are already using.

      Spiritual people …what does that mean. AA is religious as deemed by the 9th Circuit Court.

      • Lion

        Now, if this is not a joke; why are you taking other peoples inventory, that you know nothing about.
        AA frowns upon that.

        No drama here, just the truth. This is not an AA meeting.

    • Lion,

      You must be bright enough to recognize this is an anti 12 step forum. We all have heard the bull shit nonsense that A.A. promotes. I think that you will be a lot happier if you surround yourself with like minded, diseased, powerless sheep. If A.A. does it for you, that’s great, have a wonderful life.

  64. Lioness,
    You are doing exactly what you are accusing this other person of doing and that is vomiting your disdain against us. The public restroom is down the hall. May I suggest you use it prior to logging on here. We all thank you in advance for consulting your sponsor before administrating your vile judgements against us. Also, do steps 6-10 before coming back. As you are well aware, an AA member is NOT allowed the luxury of being angry….”It will rot your soul”. Of course Amends are in order, however, for some reason that has never applied to an AA member with more than a month of sobriety…we won’t hold our breathe. Nuf said.

    • LOL! hi Carolyn. Love it. Love it. Love it!

      I am no longer along. When I see the kettle is black and I call it black I am sane. See I am not in AA anymore. The people on this blog see the truth, speak it and know that we are not lying to ourselves any longer.

      Peace out man….

      • Thanks massive. In AA’s case, the kettle is brown always has been and as long as they keep making up “Bull Shit” rules, will always be Brown. Right Newt; the new BS AA Ambassador of the month; now serving the United States.

  65. I’m doing well, hope you are well too. I’ve just been debating over at another site and it seems as if I’ve won, for the moment at least. Anyway, massive, just wanted to warn you that this Lioness may actually be JD. We all know how duplicitous he can be….

  66. That was funny. When I read the snake story the people that came to my mind were the sober ones I met in AA who fit the snake personality to a tee.

    • I use to go to a womens meeting where they really got excited when they chanted: “It works if you work it and it wont if you dont; so work it.” I would be in the circle with someone forcing my hands up and down but I could never bring myself to join in the dialogue.

      • Hi Amy, that’s just one of the rituals that they use on their way to creating mindless robots. In time, most advance into walking around, a blank look on their faces, and all the stupid slogans running through their minds. You can tell, just ask one of them a question, you will likely hear one of the patented slogans as a response. No more individual thinking, no self will, they have become a spiritual, 12 step Zombie. Be very careful though, they can still bum money!

        • Frank,
          And grab asses and blame the Zombie next to them, because you know all of them have taken a “Searching Fearless Moral Inventory” and said NOPE that isn’t me! (I have never meant a more spineless group of people-fess up own your own shit, apologize, learn from it and move on)! For heaven sakes we are adults teaching this crap to kids???

          Sponsors suck when you had a real problem a typical slogan was “It is was it is” or “Let Go; Let God”, but then they were in my everyday business (unsolicited) spouting the most ridiculous slogans and advice i.e. “What was your part in this”? Okay, I will bite; I go to the gym and work real hard to have a nice ass so your old timers & felons can get a cheap (on their part-memberships are expensive) thrill. I sit on my ass when I can not to tempt the vultures; does that count for anything? Wear baggy clothes, don’t do your hair or make up was actual advice given to me. I told her maybe if she took a little pride & interest in her own appearance her husband wouldn’t be my most frequent sexual offender (he grabbed my ass more times than Newt Gingrich lied, cheated, violated ethics, contradicted himself just in the month of November)!!! ETC, ETC. ETC.

          THESE CRIMES AGAINST ME WILL BE RESOLVED WITHIN THE FIRST 6 MONTHS OF 2012. I will NOT take NO for an answer and mediation and mitigation IS NOT AN OPTION! I’m going for PROFESSIONAL Licenses, Jail time, $$$$$$$, Relocation of Pastor and eliminating POP Happy Hour meeting from the AA meeting list and anyone who gets in my way.

          Oh dear, I can hear the co-secretaries coming after me again to lie in court proceedings and altering more evidence to get me COMMITTED INSANE ( for those who don’t know this actually took place over a course 3 1/2 weeks this last August.) Two stellar member of the AA community serving as co-secretaries didn’t like that I fought for my legal/civil rights (I had Massive by my side PHYSICALLY). I talked to everyone and finally went to the parents at POP church to let them know what was happening around their kids by placing warning flyers on their cars during church service. This damaged the co-sec perceived prominent reputation.

          The Pastor told the sectaries to take care of me (I’m not one to be manipulated, lied to or placated, which they try all). So they cooked up a plan to ruin me {note: I am the current live-in girlfriend of one secretary’s ex}. She, a millionairess, wanted me not only deemed/committed insane, but removed from my home & around her kid). Obviously, I won that round which had separate three rounds. I know there is more to come; she used her illegal trump card and I have very good attorneys.

          I want ASSES NOW; it’s my turn and I WILL GET THEM LEGALLY and JOYFULLY.

          I did my steps in reverse and just like a country song I GOT MY LIFE BACK and then some!!!!!! I highly recommend it! It’s called give your crap back to the assholes and AA program, praying/chanting/or not (what works for you), give the UNEDUCATED ILL ADVISED USELESS CRAP back to your sponsors, take back your personalities (deemed character defects), leave that powerless crap in the ROOMZ (with all your love bombing friends) and EMERGE AN EMPOWERED INDIVIDUAL!!!

          HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL!!! =)

        • That is when I would go to the restroom. I smoked back then so I lingered outside to WEAR away the time. GOD, I hated those drunk-a-logs!!! I wanted to hear solutions and how to handle stress, pressure, bad news or cravings. My sponsor told me to sip water slowly. Why do we have Educated Therapists, Drs etc; when it only took a sip of water and that could be done in the comforts of my own home without anyone grabbing at me??

  67. lioness242
    To: All

    Gee thanks,

    Without the (wink wink) “subtle” hint you just ‘xasually threw out’ here we sure would be “too dumb” to know what’s to be found on the net about mondotuna.. you know, that old slandering mess that followed the mudfight over at Lifering what ought to be his priorities and focus?

    Seen it. Seen you all in the mudraking and throwing too, and a few others that pop in here. Who all — for reasons that are beyond me — seem to wanna keep coming back to throw mud.. and can’t let bygone’s be bygones.. (mondo made a mistake) like kindergarden we need to grow up.

    Not sure what i’m trying to get started with this one.. again

    My advice to you though is: just don’t. And definitely don’t do it here as we have connections in the gutter cause we are bottom feeders [snip]high places,


    Just like in the kiddie story..[snip]

    Thanks for showing your true colors amigo’s. Hast La Vista!

    Henny the lion mamal

    Moderated until further notice Happy New Year!

    • Lioness,
      You are giving advice? Are you drunk or just plain long stupid? Neither condition is very attractive. I will give you one compliment though, you are very amusing, you are a joke! Maybe you should head off to a meeting, where they will love you until you can love yourself. See how that works out for you!

    • Cat, please help me understand how it is okay for Mondotuna to respond in unkind to anyone who disagrees or is anti AA? Isn’t that against what God or Bill was preaching? Is that someone who should be sponsoring people? The words are horrible. Even in a thread ‘irks and quirks’ YOU created to steer the group he went on about anti aa people. He DIDN’T respect your request to forgive, forget and move forward but took it back to the cesspool he seems to be fond of. I can’t believe you can’t see how nasty this person is to anyone? Two wrongs? Is that what your 12 steps teach you? To treat others as they treat you and treat them like they are lesser human beings?

      From Mondotuna in Irks and Quirks on Delphi:::
      “As far as the anti (Auntie?) crowd, I’ve yet to see one nastier than I was when new. By and large I find them tepid, repititious and lame. Maybe I’ll give lessons on how it’s best done at some future point. Like anything else in life, endless whining about something one is not involved in isn’t required to be boring and juvenile. I believe I could get that point across at the level they could understand it. But, maybe not.”

      He’s SICK. And sorry, but nowhere in our Constitution does it read ‘thou shalt not have freedom of speech unless censored by the Lioness” Please tell me you have some sense of understanding in all this.

  68. @Lion man said My advice to you though is: just don’t. And definitely don’t do it here as we have connections in high places, stinkinthinkin is well aware of our power,wink wink .

    Are you threatening anyone here? Better not. I have already called Police and FBI once. I will call and file online again. Get off my blog.

  69. Sorry to this site. I just came across it and was venting. I’m ex AA and have been on the receiving end of the Fish or whatever he calls himself around forums.

    • Sarah- Welcome- At The Blog is called leaving AA, that why I created it. FOr you and me and the hundreds of thousands of others who dislike, hate and have left AA.

      Blog away.

  70. Mondotuna
    To: alien22

    I’m not sure why i’m so disliked, but I have a theory…

    I’m the type of person who in an infantile way gets a thrill out of being a nasty rebel and being bad in front of people he is sure will treat him nicely and try very hard in a friendly way to change him.

    A good comparison is shower [snip] him with attention and [snip]smilingly say

    He doesn’t like it very much [snip]


    you will be moderated until further notice.


    • Mondotuna/Jerry,
      Sounds like a cyber bully whom would back down in a heart beat if ever questioned or challenged in person. The bully behind the screen.

      I have a question screen to screen ( I am not stupid enough to have my IP in yours or any of your pals shit filled hands).

      I can understand your nastiness towards us anti aa individuals whom have been harmed by AA’s program and have been abused either verbally, sexually or financially and have the courage to stand up for ourselves (you may get there one day), however, (and here is the question) why do you treat your fellow members poorly? I get you are a rebel and get a thrill out of it, but is this a part of the indoctrinated program you are defending?? The exact reason why many people have left??

      You are a bully and WHEN confronted you will backup like you do with your boyfriend. I wouldn’t brag too much of this type of behavior, statics prove one does get caught or called on this type of Shit. If you are a true AA believer; you should be supporting the anniversary your founder and not bringing into public controversy and harming members to fulfill your jollies.

      • Carolyn- So true. If Mondotune aka Jerry were a good AA Christian he would never act this way. He would be looking at his own part in it and writing a spot check inventory and then quickly putting his mind on how he could help another.

        Perhaps 12 step someone, or give someone a ride to a meeting. Perhaps he could say a few prayers for us for 14 days. You know, that sort of sweet loving AA behavior we all remember so well.

        Instead He will be moderated. Why would Jerry come to a Leaving AA site. I could see with ST which was an anti but neutral site. But LEAVING AA….I mean hey, even in the title we get the point.

        Ahh it feels so good to be free from this sort of thing. Thank God for WordPress, Ilse, Mark and orange and Paul. All with whom without them I would not have seen the light!

        Happy New Year Carolyn.

        • Massive,
          You are so right. Life is so nice and bright outside the roomz without all that stale BS air clogging my head & lungs! So good to be out amongst strong, free thinking, caring individuals. Jerry probably charges members for a ride-lecture and insults are free of charge and non negotiable!

          Happy New Year to you & big guy!

  71. This man is ill in many ways. IMO he does not even like AA. He has no love of self and he is a miserable human being who spends his life “attempting” to make everyone he comes in contact with miserable. To try and analyze him any further is futile. Everything he says is evil, meaningless and manipulative to get the attention he craves. Here is how I see him:

    Compliments of Ryan.

    • Amy,
      Hahahahahaha thanks I needed that. Jerry, see how it works; we support each other and we are healthy and sound enough “IN OUR OWN SKIN”, that we don’t have to knock people down to build our self up. Take heed our tiny little TROLL!

    • I’m on a kindle and it will take me forever to get to the bottom, so I’m posting this here.

      Omg just saw my psych nurse. Bc I hate AA and was Fucking abused in it the docs have labeled me. First, most don’t believe the abuse part I think. They have no idea what goes on in AA.

      When my disc ruptured my general practitioner would not give me any pain meds. He had been my Dr for 11 yrs and I had never ever asked him for any kind of pain med. But when they see, oh u were in AA u are labeled. It wasn’t until I saw the surgeon then I was put on pain meds before the surgery. Worst pain of my life. Childbirth was a cakewalk compared to that pain. And the surgeon was furious. He was like, that was unethical…

      Now bc I opened up a little to my psych nurse about what happened to me in AA, she’s saying she wants to drug test me bc I’m on a low dose of lorazepam. I’m like no problem. That startled her. I’M NOT A DRUG ADDICT!!! Yes in the past I abused alcohol. But just to warn u guys I would never mention any affiliation with AA or history with it.

      It sucks…they all think AA is this pure, wonderful organization. Smh, if they only knew….and I’m done opening up to professionals about it. They are all brainwashed in a sense too. It’s f’ed up!!

      • Hey I hear you, I had double strabismus surgery so I had stitches in both eyeballs and I was discharged with no pain relief because in a moment of madness, years before, I disclosed I was in AA to a GP and now every note about me has ‘alcohol dependence syndrome’ on it (present tense despite the 12 years off the booze!!).

        I was in agony and the registrar was very rude as it says something about AA in my hospital care summary, and said ‘we can give you an ibuprofen’ the total bitch, she thought I was drug seeking!!!

        Fortunately I had some codeine left over from thyroid surgery (where the surgeon was a pet and believed me and in fact dismissed my alcohol issues as all related to my thyroid problems) and so I used those as soon as I got home.

        But like you I will never, ever discuss it with a professional ever again ….


  72. Hi all

    Looks like we’ll be heading back to the States [snip] around mid 2012, I believe I could get that point across at the level they could understand it.


    you are be moderated. One more and I will ban you.

    Hello Mr intelligento This is an anti AA site. btw Jerry, go back to where you came from. Don’t let the door hit you on the ass on the way out …what is it you say…wink wink.

      • Hi G2K – I was thinking of calling you.

        Happy New Year. GLad to see you here. 🙂 Our blog talk radio on CHAPTER 5 has had over 520 archived listens!

        I guess your parody on Chapter 5 of the Big Book of ALcoholics Anonymous is a big hit!

  73. I have NEVER posted here myself until today. Posts showing up with my name here were hi-jacked from other sites, without permission. Quotes out of context, you get half the story. Just like reading the Enquirer. Compliments for the MUD PIT, since you ‘trace’ me u know what I mean by that. Be well, harm none.

    Lioness herself (this one’s not hi-jacked)

  74. Massive, I want to tell you: Thank you so much for this blog and for continuing the tradition of
    I could have still been going to AA and going crazy were it not for that blog and the bloggers there.
    Instead, I put the plug in the jug of AA after 30 days.
    I don’t need marathon drunkalogues, or giving AA all the credit, to stay sober. I’ll just keep doing what I’m doing. It’s working quite well.
    Thank you. Massive.
    You too, JD/Lioness.
    Some are sicker than others. I’ll pray for you. Good luck with that.

    • Ive come to the conclusion that AA had the same negative affects on me, as my disfunctional family did; in many ways. Once I eliminated both of them from my life almost 2 yrs. ago; I stopped abusing alcohol.

  75. SMSM- Thank you, thank you so much back ….I needed to do it . I still needed ST when it shut down the bloggers and when ftg asked me… I felt like I just had to do something for us that needed to blog currently.

    You are so lucky you only spent 30 days there. ALthough I have friends form the early years in Hawaii that are still my friends I feel so good to be gone. I must admit sometimes i feel the inkling to go and blast them with the Orange truth and ST truth My truth. Not that of a cult.

    Happy New Year. WE can talk in the new year about some activism you can do with us if you want.


    Empowered 2011

    … powerless 1935………you choose 🙂

  76. What’s kind of funny is how AA members seem to believe it is their duty to deny that AA life centers around God. Here’s a little something I found in the AA Big Book that proves this fact…

    “This is the how and the why of it. First of all, we had to quit playing God. It didn’t work. Next, we decided that hereafter in this drama of life, God was going to be our Director. He is the Principal; we are His agents. He is the Father, and we are His children. Most Good ideas are simple, and this concept was the keystone of the new and triumphant arch through which we passed to freedom. When we sincerely took such a position, all sorts of remarkable things followed. We had a new Employer. Being all powerful, He provided what we needed, if we kept close to Him and performed His work well. Established on such a footing we became less and less interested in ourselves, our own little plans and designs. More and more we became interested in seeing what we could contribute to life. As we felt new power flow in, as we enjoyed peace of mind, as we discovered we could face life successfully, as we became conscious of His presence, we began to lose our fear of today, tomorrow or the hereafter. We were reborn. We were now at Step Three. Many of us said to our Maker, as we Understood Him: “God, I offer myself to Thee — to build with me and to do with me as Thou wilt. Relieve me of the bondage of self, that I may better do Thy will. Take away my difficulties, that victory over them may bear witness to those I would help of Thy Power, Thy Love, and Thy Way of life. May I do Thy will always!” We thought well before taking this step making sure we were ready; that we could at last abandon ourselves utterly to Him.”

    ~Alcoholics Anonymous – How It Works

    If that ain’t religious, I don’t know what is.

    • WOW HI gunthar! How are you?

      I love it. Lets mail this paragraph along with my letter to judges, lawyers and parole officers! Great point.

  77. In AA when we speak of love we mean unconditional love. Dont want anything from you property money an affair absolutely nothing. Just want you to have the same chance of sobriety we had


    • The problem, Brian, is that those are words. People on this site are discussing actions. Flowery words I guess are somewhat useful in an attempt to tell people to STFU in a nice passive-aggressive way, but they still have nothing to do with actions people discuss on this site that have harmed them.

    • Ummmmm…..unconditional love in AA? If you tow the party line you’ll get acceptance and with some time popularity. But look closer – are these the kind of folks from whom it would be wise to find acceptance and popularity with? Now that I have seen AA close up, I’ll pass on their “unconditional love” requiring unthinking and unfeeling acceptance of insane dogma. I’ve got healthier things to do with my life these days and I also have some self esteem back again after some years out of the rooms.

  78. brian

    Your really should think twice before you Post statements like the one above on a site like this. The first thing I said to myself when I read your comment was; “I wonder how old this person is and how long they have been involved with the cult.

    We are intelligent people with more than enough knowledge about AA and we are exposing the organization for what it really is; with facts. Stay in alcoholics anonymous, educate yourself some more with an open mind and then, if you feel it’s necessary come back. If you ever see the truth and need support; you will be welcome here too.

  79. There are always conditions underlying unconditional love. The concept itself is authoritarian through and through, as it measures unconditional love as morally superior to its correlate, so-called conditional love. Naturally, one who professes himself capable of providing unconditional love is covertly pronouncing his putative superiority, often to conceal and excuse the inevitable abuse he purports to deliver in the name of “spirituality.” Unsurprisingly, all dysfunctional relationships are founded upon the ideal of unconditional love. Expounders are usually narcissists or liars or both.

  80. Ryan,
    Very well said. This unconditional love that brianh75 speaks of without sexual or financial harm is manipulation prior to covert abuse. This experience you (brian) describe rarely occurs, but keep praying for us. Maybe it will become the norm at a the new Millennium.

  81. Hmmmm, wonder what happen to all of those unconditional friends who loved me that disappeared when I left AA and chose to start therapy. I was most puzzled by my sponsor whom I was working for at the time that cut me off, causing me a loss income. Funny part is; she knew my situation and that the result of her actions would create a lot of financial stress for me. If I had not been familiar with situations like this in the past, I would have been crushed. I was hurt but not surprised. I fully expected it.

  82. From: Mondotuna Jan-12
    To: All

    ‘The truth sux but it’s still the truth.’

    Many aspects of alcoholism seriously suck. Learning about this thing was a seemingly neverending series of disheartening news.

    I can understand why so many prefer to ignore and deny the obvious expressions of it in their lives, and in the sickest cases to assign the blame for their inability to live well to others. Fighting with only the shadows of unconcerned people who aren’t the least aware that these poor hapless victims even exist.

    You may be the frightening Spectre of Sobriety to wet drunks or the temporarily dry reading here, Henny (lioness). You could represent the remembered spirit of their long ago short periods of sobriety or (what may be even worse in their agitated minds) the ghost of sobriety still yet to come.

    Bringing up statements like that about truth, when people are doing every mind twist they can accomplish without permanent brain damage to avoid seeing the truth of themselves could be considered very cruel.

    But, please don’t stop spreading the word.

    • Your obviously intense desire to seek out others who disagree with you, and attempt to belittle them for it, is more than a little creepy.

    • AA knows nothing about the truth about alcoholism. AA has NEVER done any studies or any research of any kind.

      I know a couple that 12 stepped more alcoholics then BillW and they might have some answers. AA wants you to believe a nutjob sex addict Bill WIlson who dropped more acid for many years and was severely depressed and was a rip off scam artist.

      I will be happy when the world knows as much about Smart Recovery, Rational Recovery, AMy Lee COy, Hank Hayes, SOS , WFS and the like so many more people can get help.

      The GRavy train of Rehabs and treatment Centers paid by our health care system needs to stop. When I got sober

      None of US went to rehab!!! Its a waste of time & $$$$$.

      • Well that didn’t work. I’m doing therapy on what all happened to me in AA as well as some other abuse I went through. My therapist is not a stepper and agrees with me that AA is not safe or healthy. However, we are having some issues. From my experience in AA I feel that AA is full of predators, the victims of the predators or ppl that aren’t predators themselves but cover up for the predators. I’m curious to those of u that have left what do u think? My experience was I was heavily preyed on and when I would complain my sponsors would tell me either, “some are sicker than others” or tell me to pray for them. That to me is excusing their behavior. Old timers were the ones that were trying to get me to hook up with them. I didn’t take their offers. I was 19-26 in AA and saw most of them as creepy old men. I only dated men in AA that were around my age.

        So I’m stuck on this and feeling that my therapist just doesn’t get how bad it is in AA.

        What I’ve noticed since I left is that younger ppl are more apt to hear and acknowledge how sick AA is. Older ppl have been fed AA propaganda for years and in a sense even the ppl not in AA like therapists, doctors etc have been brainwashed in a sense for generations.

        what was ur experience? Did u see a lot of predators and ppl covering up for them? Or was my experience not as common as I think it is? It’s frustrating bc even after telling her everything that happened to me in AA I feel like she still just doesn’t get how sick it is and thinks my experience was just unfortunate. I beg to differ. I think my experience in AA is bad and I think it’s fairly common. I may be wrong though. What do u guys think?

        • Btw massive she read the book. Idk what to do. I’ve invested a lot of time with her and with my insurance I won’t be able to just go out and get a new therapist and I may have the same problem with a new therapist anyway. Sometimes I feel I need a therapist that specializes in cults. Most therapists just don’t get how sick AA is. The ones that did were younger. I can’t afford to just get a new therapist. Idk maybe my experience isn’t that common. But I have to say that I thought my experience with AA was bad, but now with the media finally reporting on it it’s not nearly as bad as other ppls. The average therapist, doctor, etc have no idea how sick AA is. It’s so frustrating…

          • Aa actively goes into hospitals and institutions to spread the news. There is a general service officer that carries it out. It is also going into high schools and to health fairs. It is called public information. The only thing that bothers most professionals about it is the medication issue and the religious aspect. I have read of some therapists who have had patients that were sexually predated on in AA. They do not realize that it is common.

            • Yeah I don’t think they understand how common it is. I don’t get the going into hospitals etc. Isn’t AA supposed to be about attraction and not promotion. Isn’t that going against the traditions?

              • its very bad I agree. But my husband has been running into a lot a people who are still in AA. He is now come up with a new comeback. I think its fantastic, Here it is. Yes AA has some good people in it, but even those good people are sitting there doing notning about the bad stuff going on . Hence …as you said ..turning a blind eye. Without saying this last part he ssays they just shut up after he says that!
                I think a cult therapist might be great. Can you ask Dee Dee Stout if she could rfer you to someone up there. She as on Penn & teller Bullshit about AA. She knows a lot of pp in the filed.
                ANd yes suntime. Lots of AA membersw became therapists, social workers, nurseds and really got into that filed. Its a big cluster fuck.
                I have been too busy filming and editing all this week and more tomorrow. Ill call you back when I come up to breath…

              • duntime,
                it isn’t uncomman.That’s another thing they say if you bring it up.
                “That’s not typical for AA.”

                Even if it only happened to one person,it still needs bringing up and delt with.
                Because it’s not about number’s, its about human dignity.
                And it can effect one person diffrently to another.
                It breaks any trust the person may have had in the organisation.For me it triggered Panic.
                I also felt shame,even tho it wasnt my shame…
                i was made to feel i caused it..
                It lowered my already low self esteem.
                I’m glad i left there.i hope things work out good for you.

                • Suntime..
                  im sorry, i hit the d key instead of the s key when typeing your name…
                  the letters are disappearing from my key pads…
                  no not yet.

              • Thanks massive and Sally. This is getting really skinny to type in, lol.

                I think that I just need to accept that she’s just not gonna get it. And exactly there may be good ppl in AA, but their letting all the bad stuff happen.

  83. CoachDonSul
    Hi All
    First you should know that I got sober in AA and attended thousands of meetings and chaired thousands of them. Much of the AA program is based on some very good psychological and philosophical principals, but for a born again atheist I can really sympothize with many of those who have been unable to handle the religious basis of AA.
    I can and have coached or sponsored people who were dedicated AA’s , but I am often frustrated by the inability of these clients to reach there stated goals so I have limited my coaching to persons who have no strong religious beiefs. I wonder if the same sort of thing (frustrations) would bother you if you were to try to coach someone who was a confirmed atheist?
    But I am also a believer in “harm reduction” principles of recovery so I think we shall have to be open to any of the belief systems that our clients may currently have


      • Harm Reduction is not abstinence. You try to decrease the harm you are doing to yourself and others slowly. I think this is a great tool for teens and young people over AA cray Black and white must be an alcoholic out the gate which is not true.

        See Hams Harm Reduction on the right hand side to follow the link . Kenneth ANderson has a great book available on amazon and has a blog talk radio show as well.

        AFter you try this some decide that not drinking at all is in fact easier and is what some decide to do. Praying to God on your knees in not needed for this. Turning your will and your life over to reduce harm also doesnt work. Begging on my knees to shed a few pounds also doesn’t work. I love learning new ways. I was stuck in the AA rat wheel for way too long. I want my money back!!!

  84. On their own
    There is a high rate of recovery among alcoholics and addicts, treated and untreated. According to one estimate, heroin addicts break the habit in an average of 11 years. Another estimate is that at least 50% of alcoholics eventually free themselves although only 10% are ever treated. One recent study found that 80% of all alcoholics who recover for a year or more do so on their own, some after being unsuccessfully treated. When a group of these self-treated alcoholics was interviewed, 57% said they simply decided that alcohol was bad for them. Twenty-nine percent said health problems, frightening experiences, accidents, or blackouts persuaded them to quit. Others used such phrases as “Things were building up” or “I was sick and tired of it.” Support from a husband or wife was important in sustaining the resolution.
    Treatment of Drug Abuse and Addiction — Part III, The Harvard Mental Health Letter, Volume 12, Number 4, October 1995, page 3.
    (See Aug. (Part I), Sept. (Part II), Oct. 1995 (Part III).)

  85. On their own
    There is a high rate of recovery among alcoholics and addicts, treated and untreated. According to one estimate, heroin addicts break the habit in an average of 11 years. Another estimate is that at least 50% of alcoholics eventually free themselves although only 10% are ever treated. One recent study found that 80% of all alcoholics who recover for a year or more do so on their own, some after being unsuccessfully treated. When a group of these self-treated alcoholics was interviewed, 57% said they simply decided that alcohol was bad for them. Twenty-nine percent said health problems, frightening experiences, accidents, or blackouts persuaded them to quit. Others used such phrases as “Things were building up” or “I was sick and tired of it.” Support from a husband or wife was important in sustaining the resolution.
    Treatment of Drug Abuse and Addiction — Part III, The Harvard Mental Health Letter, Volume 12, Number 4, October 1995, page 3.
    (See Aug. (Part I), Sept. (Part II), Oct. 1995 (Part III).)

  86. I’m 4 years sober without any groups,i believe i was held back (brainwashed) by my short spell in the cult of a/a,the repeat droning of “you’ll drink if you don’t go to meetings” “a/a is the only way” had it’s desired effect on me,i really believed for years that it (a/a) was the only way and had resigned myself to a life of drinking.

    For anyone struggling with a drink or drug problem, never give up trying to stop, you’ll succeed if you really want to stop, the power is within you,it’s amazing what can be accomplished if you just believe in yourself.

  87. Horatio,

    Thanks for bringing this up because this was my experience. I never wanted to blame AA for how my life turned out and I still dont. However, you made me realize that what i have suspected in the last couple of years may very well be true.

    For 30 yrs and half a dozen times I went in an out of AA for brief periods, longest being 10 months. Each time I left, I would return to drinking heavily (by the way, not “more” like they preach). I believe the brain washing held me back too. Basically, if I leave, obviously I will drink. Well, the drinking sounded a whole lot better. I would grow weary of all of it after a period and would become discontent and depressed, in addition to hopeless and unable to see how AA could be of any benefit to me.

    Until I finally got it and said; ENOUGH! I left this time after 6 months in AA and did not drink. Im free from AA and alcohol abuse for 21 months now. I have more confidence in myself and what I have to offer others. Im not angry and feeled with guilt, remorse and shame. All of those things you are suppose obsess over in order to work a good program and become more spiritually fit.
    Oh, and so much happier!! 🙂

  88. By the way, I think that I never wanted to admit that the brainwashing held me back because it would It appear that I was “simple” and making excuses. I realize now that brainwashing is a very powerful tactic.

    Im still not sure if that is exactly what the problem was or if I just was not ready but it sure looks that way to me right now. Ive given it a reasonable amount of time before coming to that conclusion.

    • Amy & Horatio,

      I think y’all nailed it. I really believe that if you want to drink or use, anything that A.A. / N.A. has to offer is not going to stop you. If a person has truly had enough, and is ready to stop, I believe the programs can actually erode a persons resolve to quit in time. The programs just don’t make any sense. It is all up to the individual in my opinion.

      • To add, that is why we didn’t see a lot of old-timers in the rooms, most people that quit getting high do so on their own and get on with living their lives. I can’t think of anything more depressing than spending the remainder of my life, listening to all that negative feedback that we have to endure in “the program”. After a while, it just gets down right silly!

        • Frank- I agree. I was really embarrassed that I went for so long although in the end , I mean the last 6 years I didn’t go more then once a week and there were years when my sons were little I went even less. Some years I went to more Al Anon and more BODA. Actually they were far saner then AA as a whole. Of course until I saw it as a cult and saw through it all.

          • After someone have been in AA for a long time (sane people, not old time meeting goers) and they begin to cut back on meetings or feel the need to check out Al Anon; I think it is because they are grow very weary of hearing the same thing over and over again. This is where the brainwashing applies again. Fear has been instilled them; to stop all together. It happen to me.

            Over the years I have talked to so many while attending and many after leaving and when this happens, they are told to try al anon or increase their meetings.

            Ive had women tell me the more i go, the more I want to go. The less I go, I find myself not wanting to go at all. In another ex. a woman said; “I watch my grand chrildren now and I really dont have time but I go once a week. I dont really need to go and Im kind of tired of it but I guess I do enjoy it and I dont want to stop going all together.” Another said; Ive been sober 25yrs, I dont have to go, my family ask why I still go but I enjoy watching others grow.

            I think these are all excuses and reluctance to admit that they are just sick of AA; yet afraid to leave. It’s understandable because thats what cults do; they instill fear in the members to leave. It just happens to be loss of control over alcohol in aa’s case if you leave.

            In the time I have been blogging I have seen many people show up on the blog that are still in AA and very unhappy but making what appears to be excuses to leave.

            I thought for 10yrs that AA was a cult and mentioned to someone in the program. He said it was a good cult. As Massive said; you have to be unhappy and certain that it is before you can finally make the decision to walk away for good. Unless you dont mind being in a Cult and giving up a certain amount of control over your life.

          • I’d like to add that in many case, you find yourself observing problems like “sexual harassment” and when you attempt to address it; your ignored or ostracized. If you, rightfully so, cant accept this and live with it; then you have to leave.

  89. Good point Frank.

    Many leave and get on with there lives. They dont “GO OUT” and end up in jails or an institutions or dead.

    Many old timers are not working any kind of a spiritual program at all. They are “sober meeting goers” that take great pride in their time and focus solely on that.

    • Amy,

      I truly believe that the vast majority of abstinate people just quit without treatment of any sort. They just decide to change the direction of their lives and their decision is final. When the thought of using enters their conscience, they just quickly dismiss it and move on. They have fully come to terms with where experimenting takes them and just don’t entertain the thought for more than a brief second or two but quickly shrug it off. I believe any thought of use is quickly countered with the end result of that use, which as we know, is VERY ugly! It just simply is far easier not to let the Gorella back out of the cage again, and they believe that with all their being.

    • Amy exactly- in the old days many were very proud of becoming good, better citizens. Becoming rigorously honest and really changing, working on character building. 13 stepping was really frowned on.

      Nowadays one would be laughed out of the room.

  90. I found AA used tactics to train dogs on the newcomer, reward & punishment (shunning, name calling,constant negative interactions). If an AKC official would observe you treating a dog like AA did it’s members, they would be black balled and possibly charged with cruelty to animals.

    The second huge mistake AA and it’s sponsors do is diagnose the member with a disease, allergy or alcoholism, which only a licensed physician can do. Then they discount any type of emotional, physical or sexual abuse, which should also be attended to by a specialized doctor. Sponsors play God and Russian roulette at the same time, however, they are dumb enough not to realize this for their ego is over inflated and can’t see the whole picture. Many people simply drank not to feel the pain of their abuse and aren’t doomed for the rest of their lives. This was my case, however, I was handled the same way as every Tom, Dick, Jane & Lisa who entered the place. Break them down so we can build you up. Didn’t make sense then and still doesn’t.

    At the beginning, I was told I was the most important person in the room. How come they didn’t protect that infamous newcomer when sexually attacked. They have no back bone especially when it came to standing up against the group. I have been up against the worst of the worst BY MYSELF there wasn’t one person with a back bone willing to jeopardize their status to help an innocent female. If AA grooms males to be this way……I say find an AA women. We want a man with a brain!!!

    • Carolyn- You know, when you write , you are so sane and make so much sense. Why is it that AA so freaked out on you and I when we were just initially addressing sexual harassment? The more I see you write, and the more I see how how sane you are and many other bloggers, I wonder what kind of drugs are they on that they are so lost and falling down the Rabbit hole.?? I guess they are so brainwashed!

      A friend and I were talking tonight about being in bad relationships and it is like being brainwashed. AA is a super bad relationship.

      It is refreshing to read your posts. Thank you SOOOO much. I did this alone for way too long. I am not alone anymore.

    • At the beginning, I was told I was the most important person in the room. How come they didn’t protect that infamous newcomer when sexually attacked.

      carolyn- great point I will bring up at my next outreach meeting with a committee.


  91. Looks like a great blog. Glad to see their are other alternatives being discussed other then AA. Seems many do not seem to find AA appealing.
    Many leave AA because of the all consuming rhetoric that is hurled at you early on. In most cases people that bump into AA are not looking for a lifetime program but a short term answer to a very confusing time in their life.
    AA is not geared this way nor is their message they send out.
    I don’t believe that AA necessarily has a 5% success rate but a problem with their message to 95% of people coming into AA. 95% probably don’t even belong their that are there right now, 95% of the people who show up for their first visit don’t belong there and this % could be higher.
    AA (IMO) was designed albeit unprofessionally for the hopeless cases not your average person experiencing problems with alcohol, people with emotional and mental difficulties coupled with alcohol problems ect….
    We could almost say that with the advances studies on alcohol addiction and the progressive treatment for it that AA maybe almost obsolete.
    But to say that AA is purposely hurting people I think is a great stretch. That the GSO is looking the other way when it comes to the societal abuses that happen every where humans congregate ect….
    The Treatment Industry and the Judicial System has taken over AA has a inexpensive way of treating everything related with alcohol.
    There is very little the GSO can do about this. You don’t need the GSO’s permission to open a homegroup in AA, you don’t need anyones permission.
    That maybe the problem.
    Take Care

    • Leroy Strong- Hi and Welcome. I agree. We are doing some serious outreach off the blogs to change what is going on in the courts.

      Smart and SOS and growing. Hank Hayes new book You’ve Been lied to… is going to take off .

      PLease see

    • You said you think that AA was designed for “people with emotional and mental difficulties…” not just excessive alcohol intake?

      That’s interesting. Steppers are always using the excuse that “AA was designed SOLELY for people with alcohol problems, not other mental illnesses,” to account for why mental illness is addressed so improperly in the roomz.

      I agree your post overall but I have a problem with that one statement.

  92. Thank you Lee Roy. Very sane insight you have. You say: “95% of the people who show up for their first visit don’t belong there and this % could be higher.” I agree. I would argue however that no one BELONGS there. Sure people can choose to go. Many of us who have left AA think that it has many front groups, the NIAAA being one. Here is their website:

    They are a VERY POWERFUL voice for national temperance and AA faith healing. You will not see either of these two things mentioned on their website however. What you also won’t see is anything that contradicts the AA ideological monopoly on addiction. Keep in mind this is a federal government agency. If they find the cure for addiction they will no longer exist. They know this too. Everyone would be out of a job, I suppose after the pharmaceutical formula for the brain disease cure is sold to pharmaceutical companies. I couldn’t imagine them going away anytime soon.

    No AA doesn’t intentionally hurt people. An extreme example of people being hurt by others who don’t intentionally hurt them would be child molesters who also suffer from a “disease” and so don’t intentionally hurt the children they rape. The DSMV will include not only “pedophilia” as a “mental disease” but also “hebophilia” (kind of like pedophilia except the kids are a little older).


    I just came to the site to post this link to a great site I came across that exposes Synanon and Straight I had never seen before:


  93. Marketing is a huge part of why the public buys something.
    A certain Malibu rehab is probably the best known non-12 step due to its heavy marketing on Discovery Channel alone. Its slogan: “This is not a 12-step. This works.”
    Search engine optimization techniques–redirects, swamping all known social media/portals with maketing– serves to bury the negative, the most notable being a 2008 article in LA Weekly.
    This place costs $67,000 per month.
    Just because it’s not AA doesn’t mean it’s good.

  94. OK then…..I just found out that these two guys who were in the (oh-so-fabulous) treatment center I was at (they were brothers) went off after treatment and murdered someone! Very, very bizarre. Both are now in prison (separate prisons, they apparently wanted them separated for a LONG time).

    From what I know so far, it was a drug dealer they were attempting to rob of both money AND drugs. And instead they murdered him. Guys we were all in group and meetings with, housed with, meals with, well, everything with. Murderers! Brilliant.

    When you add to that that out of close to 50 people we can only find possibly 6 who are actually not relapsing and requiring more treatment, I’d say this place is a grand success story! (Seriously, in prison for murder, I still can’t believe it!)

    • PIE =I know the feeling. Long ago in the early 80’s I befriended a new asian guy. He was like a cool local guy. I had no idea who I was dealing with. He liked me I liked him as friends, we drank coffee and smoked cigarettes…..Later he relapsed and went to prison, then they put him in the secret program where they change their idenity..sorry Im so tired I forget what they call it. Plus I got the flu again from my kid. Ughhhhh!

      When I found this out and it was years later I was like Holy SH####T.
      I know now he never felt he was powerless. He was a show. He was really a thief. His poor kids. Sad sad story for them.

  95. I heard a great definition of recovery the other day, recovery is “not getting worse”

    My soon-to-be-ex sponsor told me I wasn’t in recovery because I had been dishonest about my ‘clean time’ – I was “not getting worse” at the time, even with the dishonesty. I will continue to “not get worse” as I tear myself away from the clutches of XA and eventually leave.

    The Big Book told me that I may well be a ‘real’ addict, it made me fear for my friends who I think may be ‘real’ addicts too. They don’t work a program and they are still clean. The same sponsor told me that they will get sick and probably use again whilst also telling me to keep it in the day and that this was not only taking their inventory but playing God.

    I was told that I could have any God (as I understood him). My sponsor told me that I didn’t need to go to church to find this God, even though I like to go to church. Her God is an inner voice or God conscience, I was told not to listen to any inner voice as I am insane and my thinking is diseased. So do I ditch my church God and take on a God as my sponsor understands it?

    The Big Book told me that no amount of self knowledge about the condition or disease (that I don’t believe I have) will help me stay sober, it then sent me on an extensive mission of self knowledge through a searching and fearless (or long and rambling) step four where I would digest large chunks of truth about myself.

    Step 11 told me only to pray for God’s will for me, Step 10 asked me who was in my prayers today?

    The Big Book told me that nothing would be more effective at maintaining my sobriety than intensive work with others. Everytime I finish a session with a ‘sponsee’ I have more using thoughts than ever (I guess it might be all that talking about drink and drugs).

    The NA program told me that we had tried Medicine, religion and psychiatry without success, the AA program was written by a Medic (Dr Silkworth), a Psychiatrist (Carl Jung) and is adapted from the Oxford Group, Christians? I see a lot of Quasi-religion or maybe a God of Bill W’s understanding… should I be confused or am I being misled?

    The Big Book tells me that I need to unblock myself from the Sunlight of the Spirit, I think that sounds like a whole lot of nonsense!

    Dr Silkworth says I have something akin to an allergy towards alcohol (and I guess drugs), I told the XAers I didn’t believe I had this ‘allergy’. I was told that instead of breaking out in hives I would break out in handcuffs and Jail cells, I said that was ridiculous, they said I was over analyzing… I have NEVER been to prison

    The Big Book tells me that if I don’t agree with it I can throw it away, I may do just that!

    • neiko- I think your writings here are a perfect example why most of us left AA or NA. I was once a stupid sponsor who said stupid stuff. You post is reminding me of one more person- sponsee I need to call up and tell her I am sorry. Thanks for that.
      I do a radio show. Would you be willing to call in next thursday and talk about exactly what you are going through now? Gunthar 2000 is hosting with me? He is a Blogger I met On and he was in and out of AA for 18 YEARS and after he left he found all these other ways and he now has 5 years and he is very happy about it. There are others who I know drink moderately. I will not judge. Let me know. No pressure, but it seems you are clearly seeing the forest from the trees and the Bu####it is apparent.

      My topic is on AA, Religion and make up POP psychology.
      let me know

      thanks for posting!!! you are not alone….

      Empowered 2011

      powerless 1936

      You choose…..

      • I have a ‘sponsee’, I helped the poor girl see ‘her part’ in the sexual abuse her Father put her through, it feels horrible writing this. She has an eating disorder, the prescription, be more honest, do more amends, work more with others and go hell for leather on getting that ‘vital spiritual experience’. It makes me sick to think I told her all this 🙁

        She’s still in the program and still clean and terribly worried about me because I won’t engage with my sponsor or do any tedious work. As she’s okay and seems to be doing well I guess I’m still very programmed thinking that if I tell her I’m leaving and why she might relapse. We set up a meeting together too which I have to go and take tonight, that is gonna be HARD!!!!

        The one good thing I guess I did was open her eyes up to Smart, I believe she is training as a facilitator.

        I will email about the radio show later 🙂

  96. Azelea said;

    “The Big Book tells me that if I don’t agree with it I can throw it away, I may do just that!”

    “That is exactly what I did shortly after leaving AA. The big book, every piece of AA literature and sobriety chips.” In all of the years going in an out of AA I would store the Big book and the 12 & 12; As if fearful to throw them out. The pages had yellowed over the years. Literally, one morning I woke up and took one look at those items and said to myself; where is the nearest trash can. Very freeing experience.

    • Amy-

      IN my move, from one house to another, Im finding all kinds of bronze chips for the many years I wasted in AA. I was trying to decide what to do with them. I can’t part with them yet.

      However, I got the idea I may use them in my film. Talking about what they meant , what I was going through when I got them. It will make the AA lovers who watch the film see me in a different light. I hate it now. But I once was such a fool. Oh well. I can deal with that now. I am moving on “Inside”

      Then I’ll give them away or throw them away. We’ll see. 🙂

      • Massive,

        What I did, certainly may not be for everyone but it was the right thing for me. Doesnt mean that my time was not worth anything. Besides, mine were plastic chips and key chains that had rusted, not bronze. 🙂

      • Massive

        You werent a fool for staying in AA; anymore than I was for going in an out of AA for 30 years. I drank most of that time and you were sober. In that case; I could call myself a fool but I wouldnt think of it. In both cases it’s the past and we came out of it alive. We are not our past.

  97. Still coming to terms with the navigation and protocols on this site so I’m thinking this might be the right place to post, it’s certainly likely to be a bit long and winding 🙂
    I went to my last NA meeting yesterday, thank God (that would be my God that I believed in prior to my latest XA encounter!) I lost my service ‘cos I lost my ‘clean time’, which was fake anyway so it’s really no loss!

    In some ways I am possibly lucky (although have yet to see real evidence) ‘cos I mostly do CA where going to too many meetings are discouraged so I don’t have a vast amount of them to untangle myself from.

    However, the way they take the steps I kind of feel I was pushed into “working with others” when I was far from ready and said a lot of those horrible ‘do I really know what I’m talking about’, ‘if it isn’t in the book just ignore it’ kind of things that I believed sponsors were supposed to do 🙁

    I also feel that I was rushed/pushed whatever into setting up a meeting with a ‘sponsee’ by people who had a bit longer around but lived in a different city. Well, I have been to the meeting tonight, I have service there which I haven’t had to lose due to losing clean time as clean time means very little in these meetings, it’s how far you are in the steps that counts, I think but then again what would I know?!

    I’m pretty devastated that we have this meeting going, I don’t believe in it anymore and certainly am NOT prepared to ‘sponsor’anyone ever again the way I feel right now. I already have apologies to make for the BS I came out with when I did that before.

    I think most of us in this fellowship (CA) felt that other fellowships (AA/NA) were somehow doing it wrong and we were taking the steps the wrong way and if only we did it more like Bill and Bob did it we would be okay. That was the problem – not many seemed to think that the actual program was the problem, why would we, we’re supposed to look at ourselves all the time?

    So, we’re running this new little meeting and encouraging others to take the steps in the ‘right’ way, only now I realise that it’s all just wrong, wrong, wrong 🙁
    I looked around the meeting and we’re all so young and have been so horribly deceived. These guys are my friends and they are promoting the ‘to use is to die’ stuff that I don’t even believe. I feel sad, I feel guilty and I feel scared to tell them what I really think is going on. If it is a cult (and this style of CA would be the cult within the cult) it is one bloody insidious cleverly designed cult. There is no live central figure, no-one is telling us we must all kill ourselves in the name of XA though a lot of them believe that without the program they will become suicidal. It’s just horrible. They are upset with me for not doing the work and admitting that I am not doing the work. My sponsor told me that I was gonna use again and that I looked a mess again and I sounded f****d – from not doing the work. If it is a cult can anyone shed any light on the advantages of persuading people to set up meetings, our money doesn’t go anywhere especially, we have plans to buy some big books but it doesn’t go up the chain to any integroup or area as we don’t have one.

    I look around at all these fresh faced kids, who are my friends and I am genuinely worried for them. They are various states of recovering/recovered from a disease they haven’t got and they truly believe this and it’s ME that they are worried about. This is a very scary situation. I don’t really sound like them anymore when I share, I can’t ‘fake it’. I’m not so scared about getting shunned by them anymore, I’m scared that they are deep into something and don’t even know.

    I am relieved that I don’t have to do all this inventory and these amends anymore but I am starting to be pretty angry about the mass hoodwink that is going on and there is absolutely nobody to pin it on. These people genuinely believe that it is ‘do the work or die’ they believe that to drink or to use is to die. The mission has been acheived but I don’t know who’s mission it is and to what ends 🙁

    I would love it if someone has any ideas on this…

  98. Neiko – yes I do. As you know I got sober/clean at 18, so WHen I was discovering all the lies about Bill W and AA 3 years ago, I found Orange Papers. Have you read OP? If you go to the forum beware of some very mean trolls there.

    Then I went to my meeting and talked about what I was reading. When I finally realized what you have realized…I attended some Smart Recovery Meetings and also went back to my home group and talked about that AA was not the only way and how much I liked Smart and why and how I felt cheated by AA when I was young. Im now over 50. SO needless to say I was a bit pissed off. 36 fu####king years I wasted in AA believing this sh###t. Sorry but I was really mad and then sad last year around this time.

    But being honest as I went through the process not only helped me cause I like speaking the truth and not lying, it carried the message about Smart to other’s. ANd believe me there were always 4-5 women would come up to me after I shared and say “what was the name of that other group you went to?” Smart? Even the old timer women at this meeting all know someone that AA has not worked for. So in essence I was promoting Smart and the other choices like SOS and WFS and Rational Recovery every time I shared. I did this for the final 4 months I attended. I also decided to wean myself from my meetings. My plan was to stay till June, but I just couldn’t take it anymore. Each meeting is became horrendously difficult to listen to ANY OF THE READINGS!!! Especially Chapter 5 and the stupid made up traditions which are 50 % lie now along with the preamble which is not true either anymore.

    It sounds like you are going to more meetings then I was cause you were in your first year. I use to go to 4-5 a week when I was newer. It doesn’t matter. Make your own plan. Many here and on ST did it and shared with me how they left.
    So in Dec of last year I planned to go every other week to my one home group. I would get someone to cover my treasury commitment and not feel guilty about that either ( more of the cult training). ANd if there was any excuse not to go I chose my family over the meeting. Every time I choose my family over the meeting I noticed how FREE I felt. Every Wednesday I enjoyed not going. It was kinda funny.

    I decided to try one more Business meeting to forced AA NY Headquarters to Address sexual Harassment and someone invited some Crazy ass women to sabotage the business meeting. I looked around the room that night at the faces of some of the women I though tI knew and Liked and said to myself ” Oh my God…I do not belong here anymore. It got louder and louder. I was not with “like minded people” anymore. I was so alone.

    One last night that I was there a newcomer asked me to read Chapter 5 . I almost said no. Then I took the paper and read it like a robot on purpose. Deadpan and meaningless. Because that is what is had become to me. Total Bullshit.

    I celebrated 36 years and in my pitch thanked those that were involved in theMake AA Safer Workshops and writing the literature. I felt no connection anymore and I was not proud of my 36 years at all. After that I went away for a week with family and when I returned I knew that night was my last meeting. I waited till the very end of the meeting and raised my hand.

    I told them I was leaving AA and I was sick of all the bullshit I had encountered..
    I said more but What matters is that you can go to your meetings and talk about me and others who left successfully. I know a women I met on Stinkin-thinkin last year who left with a whole group of her sponsee’s for Women in Sobriety. I know another man with decades who left for Smart Recovery with 5-6 of his closet AA friends. Just talk to them. Maybe some of them feel like you do! Maybe they dont believe in the 12 step culty powerless bs either. I can send you some postcards I made.

    Im sorry so long but I just really feel for you. Also I hate to see all those young kids believing in powerlessness for the rest of their lives. My life would be so different if I found Smart 14 years ago. Oh well! Thanks neiko for posting and good luck.

    • Hi Massive,

      Boy do I relate to your sense of loss. I got into AA at age 23, got sober and never relapsed. I faithfully worked to “carry the message” for 20 years- only find out that not much good came of it. Hanging out with sick people hurt- and could have killed- me, and the time and effort should have been put into better things like working out, building my career, finding a nice girl to settle down with and build a family.

      What a side track I got on.

      But then that is the insidiousness of cult methodology. I can now see why so many people in Christian churches have deep reservations about AA. Well, I stayed sober, stayed out of trouble, and built a real career, but found out just how harmful AA people can be when one I helped burglarized and tried to kill me by sabotaging my boat.


      I simply would not have been exposed to people like that if I left the cult earlier. By year 4 in AA all cravings and desires to drink left me and have not come back.

      That is when I should have left. My heart goes out to you- perhaps we can build and make up for lost time and opportunity.

      • Yo- thanks:) A common bond for sure…I remember your story..

        perhaps we can build and make up for lost time and opportunity.

        I hope to. I am making sure I have not wasted my time. After the initial anger and sadness pasted I did realize that any service I did… I reaped that benefit karmically for me and my family. Not AA’s BS FAMILY !!!! Boy does that show how culty it all really is. Do it for AA. Sounds pretty Nazi Germany to me. “The Group is more important then the individual “. Looking at it in this context one can see the influence of the Oxford Buchmann movement.

        Bill and Bob had to distant themselves from him as he got more and more radically involved in Nazi ism. ALso the steps were just 4 simple steps in the beginning.

  99. I did have a look at the Orange Papers but I found it a bit heavy going right now. Perhaps I’ll go back at a later date, though I think I read something on there about the ‘disease concept’ – which I never believed in.
    Surely when you’re being told ‘you’ve got a disease that tells you you ain’t got one’ and you’re involved in a cult that says it’s not a cult you really ought to start questioning this stuff. (as long as you don’t over analyze, urgh!).

    Thinking over my time in XA, I felt on top of the world the first time I went through the steps BUT I had just come off a huge amount of benzodiazapines that I had been taking daily for about 10 years – yeah, course I felt great… I was sufficiently programmed to put it down to the steps (how embarrassing).

    I’m feeling mostly great again now, though I’m not allowed to apparently, off kilter shares have people coming up to me after the meetings and asking me what is really going on. I don’t want to tell them ‘cos they might get all scared that I’m going to relapse. Thing is, I might relapse (or at least have a drink or something let’s not be so dramatic to call it a relapse), I believe I’ve said it before, if I decide to have a drink, no praying, meditating or inventory is gonna stop me. And if I have a drink chances are I won’t die either, it’s never happened before. Oh forgot that one, I may die a spiritual death – well I don’t even know what that means so I guess I wouldn’t miss it. And whilst we’re talking about relapse, I’m currently supposed to have, or did have ahem, this is great this one: “a mental defense against the disease (that lives in my mind by the way) that wants to kill me” – I NEVER knew what that meant, I never asked, what the hell is a mental defense against the first one. I was never gonna be any good at this program cos I was stuck at powerless (cos I wasn’t) and the idea of this mental defense absolutely stumped me?!

    I did like the program and I’m gonna be a bit contraversial now, some of it did work. I made amends with my family and I don’t regret it. I was never honest enough with them to say that XA made me do it – ha ha program, up yours! So they don’t think I’m sober down to any program, they all think it’s cos of church, which it might well be now I think about it. ~So yeah, elements of the program appeared to work BUT I never had a clue what it had to do with stopping me taking drugs. I never understood why these ‘defects’ would lead me back to using (I hate that word ‘using’, I never called it that back in the day, they’ve so ruined my language 🙁 ) And I think again I said before there was nothing like working with others to make me want to go rushing out to get high, which I’m pretty sure I probably did on a couple of occasions.

    I’m away for the weekend, I’m off to meet my family and go to the theatre and do nice family stuff so I won’t be going to a meeting for one whole wonderful week now. The smart meeting is early next week so I will be checking that out and finishing my facilitator training.

    Did the steps the wrong way, – ha! I’m sure I will look back on this and laugh in future…

  100. neiko I hear you. I have been changing my vocabulary since I left. Im not sober. I dont drink. Thats it. Al Pacino put it that way too. He hates AA.

    Every work that seems “AA” I leave it out and find a new one.

    Have a great week! I had a very bad first amends with many on my tiny list. I share with you at another time. I was young and naive and actually hurt people with my being so called “honest”. Many did not need to know the whole friggen story.

    I use to go to NA for about 8 years in Hawaii 1975-83 because I once smoked pot,…..can you believe it? It was really all about the fellowship for me and we had dances and roundups and picnics and guitar jams and go dancing in club in Waikiki after coffee and Co Co’s…It was a different time and AA was filled with average joe’s…not court ordered criminals and sex offenders.

    Great post! thanks again.

  101. Hi massive, I hear you on the NA stuff, I started going to AA (cos I thought that at least they had the ‘right’ literature, urgh!), but I am just not an alcoholic! ‘Sponse’ tried to convince me that I was and I in turn tried to convince other addicts that they were, it really was just madness! When I got a bit more ‘honest’ (kind of) I couldn’t introduce myself as an alcoholic and I went off to CA – even though I was never a cocaine addict, what a mess! Then again the CA preamble even says that some members didn’t even use cocaine so I guess I ‘qualified’ for that fellowship, I guess pretty much anyone did!

    Anyway, I digress. I’ve had a wonderful weekend away, I met up with family, did some sightseeing, did some normal stuff and didn’t seek out an XA meeting of any description, I’m starting to see what happy, joyous and free might really be!

    I had lunch today with one of my family members, he was a ‘not willing’ on my step 8 list. I didn’t make amends or apologies or anything to him, but I behaved in a civil manner towards him. I listened when he spoke to me and didn’t roll my eyes when he spoke and stuff. I considered just kind of clearing the air with him but decided against it and just rolled with it. We had a nice time and he hugged me when I left.

    A few weeks ago I would have gone bull at a gate with amends and would probably have been in a meeting tomorrow shooting my mouth off about my wonderful amends from the not willing side of my list (perlease!). I just treated him with respect and he did the same back, it really wasn’t rocket science!

    I had a lot of time to think away from any XA influence (well only 2 days but it seemed long). I feel brave enough to look at agent orange now, it used to rattle my ‘program’ when I was doing it. I have made a decision to NOT take personal inventory I don’t think I collected any resentments and I’m not about to ask God to show me any truth either way it all seems just so irrelevant.

    Someone told me about someone in NA that has relapsed, this guy had maybe 7 or 8 years. I saw him at AA a few months ago when I was going through the phase of thinking all the NA oldtimers (5+ years or so) had maintained that kind of sobriety because they had done the big book too (I really was so badly misinformed). Anyway, this guy had done all 12 steps out of the NA step working guide – it had taken him 6 1/2 years he told me. So I was thinking of him today, NA (well NAWS inc) makes a lot of money out of that book. It occurred to me that if there was any kind of masterplan going on that maybe it was to make people think they are taking the steps by asking all these questions. Sell them this book, make it take ages to get through ergo; it’ll take them longer to start wondering if the program actually works, either that OR they’ll say it didn’t work because they only wrote about the steps and didn’t apply them.

    I tried the working guide (or green and gold as it is affectionately known by some) but I carried on getting high whilst I was writing out my step one powerlessness and all. Someone in CA told me that I was learning more about step one by getting high than answering those questions.

    Well, I’m not expected at a meeting until Friday so I am looking forward to a whole week of total abstinence from the fellowships. I hope my sponsor doesn’t call 😉

  102. Massive I am confused? I don’t mean this in a disingenuous manner either. You told us you were involved with AA for 32 years give or take and that just recently (2-3 years ago) you really began to notice that you had latent feelings of confusion and anger with the 164 pgs of the BB and the males (not all) but many within the fellowship. I know I am glossing this over but I do it to not bore you with what you already know.
    Here is where my confusion comes in, you say you are clean and sober, you grew up, matured got married and had beautiful loving children. You are a accomplished musician and you help I am sure astronomical amount of people. Both on line and personally.
    You say you were 23 years old when you came to AA and know being 32 years later, that is a enormous amount of years between enter and exit. Three decades of life experiences. Wow!!! Your friends were in AA, you used the practices I am sure at times to help yourself through your life. Your AA friends used the same practices to help themselves and you I am sure at times.
    It doesn’t seem like AA has hurt you all that much. I may have missed something, IDK.
    I do want to say this though, I am extremely proud of you for speaking out about the abusiveness that goes on within the home groups of AA. They should police themselves much better then they are doing at present. The home groups (meetings) should always be a safe haven for anyone who chooses to come.
    I also agree that the influence the Treatment Center Industry and Judicial System has over AA is just killing (yes I said killing) the very basic tenet of AA that “if you have the desire to stop drinking”. I interpret if you want to come because you think you have a problem. Not because you are being told and therefore forced to go, mandated.
    Just to tell you a little about me, I too was a long time AA active member. I too left AA for similar and different reasons. I say left but I am still a alcoholic. (meaning when I drink I drink alcoholically, trust me I know, I have been through the stop and go way to many times). At times throughout a year I will attend functions such as birthdays and conventions. (They always have a golf outing the morning of…lol.)
    The religious flavor never bothered me because I never felt any pressure to be one with God. Massive I have been to plenty of meeting from Santa Monica, Simi, Van Guys ect….and never has anyone ever tried to ram god down my throat. I used to laugh my butt off (quietly) because 75% of the people running around talking about God had never seen a church since they were in single digits. I do believe they prayed and prayed hard, they did not want to go back to drinking. I also understand that this is as far as it went and if you tried to discuss god with them then their hair stood up and they walked away. This is where I believe the spirituality idea came from. It is the lazy religious man way to God, sorta like going to church on christmas, easter and christening. I also see where agnostics and atheists can be lazy and not really delve in to there idea of the high power. I hear a lot of yik yak about AA is religious and AA heaves it on you bla bla. I don’t understand why you (Massive) are not telling people that AA (members) are definitely not doing this. I have probably gone to many of the same meeting you went to I can surely attest they are not advocating god strenuously during the meeting or after…lol.
    Think about it.
    My point is this, massive you would have had to have seen this lackadaisicalness when it came to god, religion, spirituality. Todays AA is not as defined with God as it once was.
    I don’t like the fact that Dr. Bob and Bill W. based the steps on a belief in god but I also understand it. The year was 1934 and Bill and Bob were not of your esoteric personality type.
    I guess in closing closing I am asking why?
    Is this really you now, all this passion or it is something that you just got got caught up in?
    I hope you really don’t feel uncomfortable with my questions. If you do then just blow me off and nothing more will be said of it.

    • steve h
      I got to AA at 18 years of age. I left last May. Sober 36 years..age 54.
      Many of my current friends in LA are not members, some are, its not important. I don t believe in any of it’s bullshit beliefs systems at all.

      Its a long story. read the beginning of the blog. watch my videos on youtube. I too tired tonight. I will tell you more later.
      I am not offended by your questions. When I tell you all that played out over my last 2 years in AA you will get it.

      AFter I had my first child 21 years ago there were many things about the book that I thought were BS and I always spoke my experience not reading from rote the BB like it was God….Although until 3 years ago I had no idea Bill W was a sexual predator. Nor a thief. Now I know.

      • btw keep coming works if you work it.

        opps… NOW THAT IS THE BIGGEST PIECE of BS and a lie that they all tell themselves over and over again.

        How many more slogans are there like that?

        just saying

        Can you name one.

  103. Steve H

    I was around AA meetings in the LA South Bay, for many years on and off. When someone hears references to God on a regular basis in AA; when they claim to be spiritual not religious, dont you think that can create a lot of confusion in a person’s mind. On top of that, a majority of the meetings I attended; they recited the lords prayer while holding hands. That is a christian prayer which is a monotheistic religion. Meaning the belief in the existence of one God. “Not the God of your understanding”.

    Do any of the following recovery slogans sound familiar to you because they sure do to me: Many of them refer to God. What God are they referring to??

    I can’t ………He can……….I think I’ll let him (steps 1,2,3)
    If it works………Don’t fix it
    Recovery is not something you join, it’s a way of life
    Expect miracles!
    God is never late
    Courage is faith that has said its prayers
    There is a god and I am not it
    Faith is a lighted doorway, trust is a darkened hall
    We had to quit playing god
    There are no atheists in foxholes
    Possibilities and miracles are one in the same
    The will of God will never take you where the grace of God will not protect you
    When we surrender to our higher power, the journey begins
    I came -I came to – I came to believe
    Faith without works is dead
    Get out of the driver’s seat…….let go and let god
    Fear is the absence of faith
    When man listens, God speaks; when man obeys, God works
    The task ahead of us is never as great as the power behind us
    If God seems far away, who moved ?
    If faith without works is dead; then ………willingness without action is fantasy
    Turn it over, the results are in god’s hand
    Willpower = our will-ingness to use a higher power
    Remember nothing is going to happen today that you and God can’t handle
    Man’s extremity is god’s opportunity
    AA = Altered Attitudes
    I can’t handle it God; you take over
    God answers “knee mails”
    Backsliding begins when knee-bending ends
    Spirituality is the ability to get our minds off ourselves
    There is no chemical solution to a spiritual problem
    Faith is our greatest gift; sharing it with others our greatest responsibility

    Im not longer in AA. Personally, it never helped me. I understand why I kept making the mistake of going back and I certainly had good reasons for leaving but i won’t get into that, just as you didnt.

  104. Steve H,

    Just a few more things I wanted to address before leaving for work:

    Last night, I got caught up in AA and religion. Only because you
    appear to have a strong opinion that they are not religious. I wanted to make it clear that there is no question in my mind; that AA is faith based and some kind of made up religion that looks very much like the christian religion. Of course, the description may differ from person to person in AA. Christian’s dont tell each other when and how to pray like AA does. Christians encourage church but i dont think your accused of not being a good christian if choose not to go. However in AA if you dont attend meetings regularly; Your not working a good Program. I could go on and on. I’ll be very up front with you in saying; if you believe AA is not religious, I think you may be in denial.

    Changing the subject; do you believe that there are a lot of people
    in AA that really dont want to be there anymore but they continue to attend meetings because they are afraid there lives will fall apart if they dont? I dont think that’s healthy. Do you?? Also, if these people have been reasonable successful in their lives; do you think the “so called practices of the program” are the driving force behind their success? I think its because they stopped abusing alcohol and used the power within themselves to accomplish some positive changes in their lives. Ive heard 100’s of shares from people like this in meetings and they all give AA the credit for their success. I think they do that because they would be made to feel uncomfortable by the majority if they didnt. Plus, it encourages the newcomers to “keep coming back”. Did you ever hear anyone stand up and say; my life is on the right track now, simply because i stopped drinking. Well, I tried that once. I told the truth and i was shunned and questioned repeatedly afterwards about my purpose for even being there. I no longer felt accepted by the group so; that was the end of AA for me.

  105. Just my opinion of course:

    All religion is made up religion.
    Religion is a human hierarchy and set of practices and
    scripts ( scriptures) that grows around a set of supernatural beliefs and/or a supernatural being (or beings.)

    Religion is the human structured and defined, collective experience of spiritual philosophy.

    • Yea but Buddha actually was a man who lived a real life that was inspiring to millions. SO was Jesus. So was Mohammed. They were worthy of something. They suffered for others. Jesus was hung on a cross and Bill W f####cked newcomers and scammed the first 100 who wrote the BB with him to receive no ROYALTIES. Just he, Lois and his long time mistress is still getting the royalties brought into NY from the millions made from the BB.

      I like your posts silly me but Bill W doesn’t get to be in the same circle as Jesus, Buddha or Mohammed.

      He was a lier, a wimp, a sex addict, a depressive winer and many more negative expletives I will leave out now…etc….

  106. Well, thank you for sharing that description and I am aware that all religions are made up. I find it interesting that with all of the points I made in the 2 replys to Steve “religion being made up” is all anyone commented on. 🙂

  107. Massive sorry for misquoting some of your life facts. First and for most I want you applaud you for even answering these questions. I am sure many pro-AA folks bug the heck out of you with the same questions. I was genuinely interested to understand if AA had helped, assisted or in any way made your life better.
    I noticed you have a radio show I wonder if you have ever had a person on, that asked you questions such as I have. I am not talking about someone that is going to be a jerk but a sincere questioner. Maybe if you are up for it I would like to talk with you.
    To: Amy and Massive
    I was never big on the corny slogans so I am sorry if I have little to say on this. I am a good ole down to earth (common sense) kind of guy. I have my own colloquialisms inherited from where I grew up and I without being aware use them.
    AA was a handy gem that came into my life a the right time and helped me to curtail the self destructiveness. I stopped drinking. I did not attend AA to gain a god or collect spirits.
    I think that people forget that AA is a teaching tool and not a stopping off place. AA is like a plateau on your way up the mtn. You stop learn and then move on, using what you learned along the way. Somehow AA became the abyss with no end.
    Hotel California, you can enter but you can never leave.
    I don’t understand this philosophy and yes I agree with everyone here if this is the AA you see then it should cease to exist. Because it is doing harm.
    To: Amy
    I think you misunderstood me or I did not explain myself clearly. I was not trying to infer that I was supporting religion in AA. I don’t mind it because I can allow my fellow people (all people) the right to choose as they see fit. I personally am a agnostic and don’t really think much of man made religious practices or the spirituality they speak of. It is all convoluted IMO.

  108. Steve, yes Stanton Peele asked me very direct questions. He thinks I m not an alcoholic. I agree. Im not. How can a teenager be an alcoholic? I think that was 1970’s propaganda by Marty Mann.

    Go ahead and ask. I would be happy to have you call in.

    AA helped for about a second. Then mr Doug A. big 13 stepper hit on me. A downward spiral began. I worked the stupid steps to stop the pain he caused.
    Someone should have kicked his ass literally. He did it to hundreds of new pretty young women. It was only okay in NY but when I returned to Hawaii with 9 months the hitting on my for sex began again. I was 18 turning 19 ..most of the men were 20 years older then me. Looking back now it makes me furious. I was tough I thought…a survivor…fu###kk them…they were all sexual predators.

    Then two older men hit on my sister and I . I turned one year sober and celebrated it with no one. I SHOULD HAVE LEFT THEN. But I was sucked in. AT that point I believed in BIllW and the stupid BB. The Book actually kept me hanging around then. Poor pitiful me. Then it just got worse. I went on welfare and got a homegroup with a bunch of cool Hawaiians. They loved me like their family. SO I was sucked in even more. They were good people for sure. They helped thousands of people for free. They were the “real deal” so again I was sucked in…Thinking this was the true AA spiritual path.

    I went into Oahu Prison every Wed night with them for 3 -4 years. What kind of way was that for me to spend my evenings.

    I look back and see how dangerous AA or NA is for someone under 21 especially.

    more later…its a long story….But AA hurt me. I read other books by Og Mandino to build up my thinking pattern and make it more positive. Back then CHapter 5 was not read at EVERY friggen meeting. Just the steps and traditions. Then straight to sharing. 1 hour meetings as well. not 90 minute wacko PG style.

    • AFter the second 13 stepping ordeal with my sister I wanted to kill myself. I use to fantasize driving off the Pali Hwy. Not a pretty thought.

      I will not stop till I expose the truth about AA and change how the WOrld views addiction and abusing alcohol.

      This current generation hates AA …I mean the 20 somethings. They are not stupid like me.

        • Wow,
          Massive I get it and I am sorry that your experience continued to be a series of one disappointment after another.
          I also believe there are many who are hanging around AA home groups that are not alcoholics and are being given a message that should not be happening. People should not just depend upon AA for their treatment. AA is just a part of the over all health plan. I don’t care if some people in AA say different. It is your responsibility to make sure you are getting the best care you can.
          A real simple fix for this would be to see a family doctor and or a psychiatrist. I did, I wanted to know. Now this just did not happen on a one visit. I went for a series of sessions with both doctors.
          Neither could scientifically or medically prove that I was a alcoholic or addict but what they could explain to me is the symptoms I was exhibiting and how my personality had changed.
          Massive it seemed you were looking for AA to be much more then it could offer. The fellowship per say is not AA. But I also understand that is disputed often.
          See I never really used AA as a social network and I didn’t necessarily gain many friends from AA either. I already had a family, friends and a somewhat social life. I just needed to stop abusing drugs.
          I am totally behind you in advocating for a safer environment for woman and men.

          • steve- yes I can see how very different our experience was. I expected it to be everything. Many of us were fully immersed. I was not the only one. That is why I think it is so dangerous for teens and under 21 persons.

            Thanks for your post.

  109. Amy wrote:
    Changing the subject;
    “do you believe that there are a lot of people
    in AA that really dont want to be there anymore but they continue to attend meetings because they are afraid there lives will fall apart if they dont? I dont think that’s healthy. Do you??”

    Steve wrote:
    Amy, you hit it right on the head. Yes I do believe that the message for the last 30 years has been if you don’t attend AA meeting you will die. This is absolutely the wrong message to send.

    Amy wrote:
    Also, if these people have been reasonable successful in their lives; do you think the “so called practices of the program” are the driving force behind their success? I think its because they stopped abusing alcohol and used the power within themselves to accomplish some positive changes in their lives.

    Steve wrote:
    I think you can say both Amy. I certainly am not going to tell someone that they are speaking untruths when they say they credit AA philosophies for helping them become successful human being. I can also see where as you say Amy, that it is because they stopped drinking and used their common sense to accomplish positive changes.
    Amy, I just don’t think it has been proven without a shadow of a doubt that AA is totally wrong in all aspects and that it is hurting people. I think some members can go off the ranch so to speak and do things and say things that are inappropriate.

    Amy wrote:
    Ive heard 100′s of shares from people like this in meetings and they all give AA the credit for their success. I think they do that because they would be made to feel uncomfortable by the majority if they didnt. Plus, it encourages the newcomers to “keep coming back”.

    Steve wrote:
    Maybe some people in homegroups do wrongly influence people to say such things out of guilt, IDK. Maybe the person saying it is still new and just feels so grateful that he is being subtle in his praises. I am not sure what is so wrong about giving credit to AA at least in part. In my case I give credit to my wife, my job that did not fire me, my friends that stayed ect….. I am not saying AA is this omnipotent force that miraculously made my life change. That would be untrue. Of course we had everything to do with it. We had to take the initiative, we had to show our wives we could be trusted to be responsible, our bosses ect…..But to stand up anywhere and take all the credit for our successes is just arrogant and delusional.

    Amy wrote:
    Did you ever hear anyone stand up and say; my life is on the right track now, simply because i stopped drinking. Well, I tried that once. I told the truth and i was shunned and questioned repeatedly afterwards about my purpose for even being there. I no longer felt accepted by the group so; that was the end of AA for me.

    Steve wrote:
    No I never have, to answer your question. I will tell you why. Because most of the people I know including myself, it just wasn’t that simple. Oh, I wish it was.
    I had a very serious alcohol issue coupled with a demanding drug addiction. I needed detox, treatment for 90 days and then a period of time when I could be around others you I felt understood what I was feeling and was trying to accomplish.
    The stigma we feel when first trying to clean is awful. Then the guilt starts to wear away at your confidence and the lack of patience from folks who know you best.
    By the time I got to AA I had worn everyone out that loved me or liked me. Am I saying AA made that all better, no of course not. But what AA did give me is a comfortable shelter to lick my wounds and start to rebuild a life again. For that I will be internally grateful.

    • Steve, But if you believed that you were not powerless and those around you treated you like Rational Recovery or Smart Recovery does. You might have acted differently. The disempowering of the individual by our entire culture that has been so brainwashed by AA…until you call Lois Trimpey Or Jack Trimpey or talk to someone from Smart…one has no idea how brainwashed the powerless modality had gone. I do . I saw it with my son. WHen I changed how I perceived it he changed.

      • I don’t feel like I was brainwashed or I am in a state of denial. I guess I believe that common sense should prevail. I never took Bill W. or Bob S. to be experts or guru’s. I never thought AA was medically a option nor scientifically proven to be a sound option.
        All I have taken AA for (Big Book) is a experience (memoir) to identify with, a training regiment (so to speak) that alcoholic’s use to get sober. I accepted flaws it could have flaws.
        I understand that the Book can be disputed, argued and even proven wrong.That groups of people can go way off the ranch and practice sick disturbing behaviors all in the name of AA. I get that the judicial system in this country refuses to acknowledge that their practice of throwing serious violent individuals with a hint of alcohol being a issue into unsuspecting home groups is a serious violation of our civil liberties. (I will get back to that thought process later.) I am also very disturbed that sick people prey upon others for their satisfaction.
        The fellowship of AA and the external forces that are taking advantage of that fellowship is the greater problem as I see it.
        Is AA absolved of all wrong doing No, I don’t think so. I believe there should be acknowledgment that abuse can a happen and home groups should be made aware.
        But lets all understand something here. You start going around and posting pamphlets or posters on the walls of AA rooms stating that the courts are releasing rapists, molesters, murderers ect…and you will have every famous civil rights lawyer of the land descending down on AA and suing individuals for posting such things. Just like we can’t post pictures of members who have been banned from a group for inappropriate behavior. This happened in Connecticut and the person singled out got a injunction and the group had to take his pic down. Why because they had not proved in a court room he actually committed a crime and /or we were violating his civil rights.
        AA/GSO will not involve themselves for liability reasons. It is simple if AA/GSO makes a decision to take a specific action and it doesn’t work or someone is injured in some way then they get sued. This country makes it very hard for the average citizen to defend themselves.
        Lawyers , Lawyers , Lawyers.
        Why can’t you get politicians to speak out in your defense. I would definitely get behind a advocacy/campaign to eradicate any and all court related mandates to the rooms of AA. I would also get behind AA stating that the opinions and comments relating to Alcoholism being a disease or allergy is nothing but that opinion. That they have not been medically or scientifically proven.
        We need to get the pharmaceuticals giants, the medical industry, the treatment industry and the judicial industry to stop abusing AA and the people within or associated with AA.
        AA was not meant to be used as it is being today. I get that. It is not a end all treatment plan. Like take 2 AA meeting a week and every thing will be alright. That is bullshit. Massive and Amy we all know this.
        See I really am bothered by the direction AA has taken whether it meant to go this way or it just happened. If the BOD of AA can’t stop it because they are more interested in making there big fat pay check then we need to ramp up the rhetoric find out there names and constantly name them here and everywhere.
        In closing this is how I truly feel about my beloved AA. It has been trashed and I don’t like it.
        We may argue about the message but I have no other arguments as I can see it.

      • Real quick I would like to converse more about the powerless definition. I don’t have the time now.
        Massive you have been great, thanks.

    • Hi Steve,

      I wanted to acknowledge your reply to me and thank you. I want to reply back but to be honest; i dont have the time nor the emotional energy that I would need to put into it tonight and I have to work tomorrow. Im rather a perfectionist and dont want to overlook anything. 🙂

      If I sounded harsh in my reply’s to you the other day; it’s because I was a bit suspicious of what you were trying to say. You have made your position clearer “to me”.

      Because of the radical pro aa’s that have a habit of being vague and then resorting to character assassination and personal attacks; Ive grown somewhat gun shy over the months that I have spent on the blog. Welcome!

      • I came here to read about a almost 40 year member (Massive) reason for leaving AA. I too was a bit suspicious about why she was protesting AA. But the more I read concerning Massive and others I can see the real purpose of your protest, I can see you are true and honest.
        How can one argue another’s pain. I can’t. It is mute.
        Do I feel the same pain, not in all cases. I believe a lot of that has to do with my perception. But still that is not a argument to dismiss what you feel.

    • Steven H. on February 3, 2012 at 7:02 PM said:
      Amy wrote:
      Changing the subject;
      “do you believe that there are a lot of people
      in AA that really dont want to be there anymore but they continue to attend meetings because they are afraid there lives will fall apart if they dont? I dont think that’s healthy. Do you??”

      I met plenty of people in A/A who openly admitted to me that they never had a drink problem,it’s easy to stay sober when you never had a problem with it in the first place,they were there for financial gain etc, one of them who first went to meetings to try to get back with his wife after they became estranged when she joined the cult,decided to stay when he found out how easy it was to pull women (13th stepping) he then went on to become a revered “oldtimer”

      You hear a lot said about A/A having a 5% success rate, i would put it at 0% if you took away the above people and the just plain lonely.

      • Yep, I agree Trevor. There are a lot of AA’s who aren’t alcoholics. That was one element of “the fellowship” that used to drive my sponsor up a wall. One guy who went to a meeting he attended was just nuts, a clearly schizophrenic individual, but admittedly never a drunk. The ladies in the group embraced him and told him to just say he was an alcoholic, and the pastor whose church the meetings were held at did the same! When my sponsor pointed out that the meeting was closed to non-alcoholics at a business meeting he got flamed! I think he still has a resentment over this (yuk yuk yuk.) But he was correct, AA just can’t be all things to all people.

        I am patently against the court system assigning convicts to meetings- it undermines the very purpose of the free will choice to try to change their behavior. It really underscores how a big nanny state can create harm with well meaning ideas. All that being said, I still think there is SOME good that comes from AA. For me in my first year the withdrawal from alcohol and cigarettes (I quit both) was absolutely brutal and they did help me hold it together. I think I grew in AA and benfitted from it until year 10, but thereafter it really started to drag on me. I should have left in year 5 because I had my last craving to drink in year 4.

        But hindsight is 20/20.

        In any case, I think that once a person gets beyond the cravings, it’s time to move on and keep growing. I think the 12 Steps have some value, but I get a lot more out of the Bible- and unlike many folks who have 12 step experience, I don’t have a problem with God or the Church, but I respect the decision of those who choose other views or beliefs in life. So I have adopted the idea that AA was perhaps a necessary evil in my life, but the cult like elements of AA have expanded noticeably and now there is almost no value there for me. Basically, my current suspicion is that when 12 steps programs are done wrong, they become cults and the abuse gets thick fast. My heart goes out to people like Massive who got such a whopping dose of abuse!

        Further, there’s a heck of a lot of wrongs being done consistantly in AA, and people seeking help can only benefit from getting an eyes wide open understanding of what 12 step programs are. I have also met more just plain crazy people in AA than anywhere else. I am really glad to avoid those people because they really only do harm. To that end I have beat the drum for avoiding AA clubhouses at all costs- they are breeding grounds for crime, abuse, and sickness unless they are tightly managed -and most simply aren’t.

        Anyway, I think that Massive has done a real service to get the message out regarding the problems of 12 step programs, and her honest sharing of the horrors she experienced will hopefully save lives and definitely will save a lot of misery!

        I only have experience with one other 12 step program, OA, and that really never worked for me. I am convinced that gaining weight after quitting smoking was normal, not some “disease” – it’s just a health problem. The impact of OA was depressing, demeaning, and I am thrilled to put that “program” aside. Frankly, I’d rather just be overweight than put up with that crap. All the men in my family were big, so maybe that’s just our norm. There’s a lot of acceptance of self in that observation and it’s a great feeling.

        I really enjoy this web site- it hits home on so many levels.

        • Yo, now that was a post. Massive, Amy, Trevor and yourself have been very easy to read. There is a sensibility about your posts.
          You did bring up one point that is absolutely valid. Members staying way beyond the time you should have moved on. I absolutely can not stand that people today in AA have to say if you leave then you shall die, bullcrap. From day one in AA that rankled my skin every time I heard it. Why would you not want people to recover and move on with confidence that their lives could be good without alcohol. I understand the fear, that if we leave we might forget the pain and suffering we caused ourselves and others. But they were not taking into consideration that I would not, that my family and friends all knew about me, that I maintained friends that were also recovered alcoholics and addicts. That on my own I helped others suffering from what I once did. I pointed them in the directions people had done for me once.

        • yo- thanks! 🙂 makes me feel good. I had so many giving me crap in AA when I left about stopping 13 stepping.
          Cool…but now I have better friends that I have met on the blogs.

      • Trevor,

        My quote:

        “do you believe that there are a lot of people
        in AA that really dont want to be there anymore but they continue to attend meetings because they are afraid there lives will fall apart if they dont? I dont think that’s healthy. Do you??”

        I was not referring to people who are in AA that never had a drinking problem. There are indeed plenty of those but that’s a separate issue. I was speaking about those who did have a serious drinking problem, been sober for a reasonable amount of time, yet continue to go simply because they are FEARFUL to cut all ties with AA. I feel fortunate that I over came that fear.

        My last time in AA; I became so depressed and unhappy that I had to walk away. That was almost 16 months ago.

        • I was one of those who were FEARFUL! to cut ties with A/A, i done it anyway and made a concious descision to drink for the rest of my life rather than live in those rooms, thank god i came to my senses a few years later and realised that i can live sober without the12 step cult!

          • Carl,

            Good for you. I went back to AA a half dozen times in a 30 yr period. Each time it looked more ridiculous and I grew weary of all it; in a shorter period of time. I would also leave and drink in the past. Until at 6 months sober this time; I left 16months because I felt like drinking after meetings. Whate I was doing in the past was not keeping me from abusing alcohol so, I decided to try something different and it worked. I guess AA just wasnt a good fit for me.

          • HI Carl Welcome! Im glad to hear you stopped without AA and didnt wind up in jail,institutions or dead, like they always predict.

    • Steve,

      I mentioned to you that after a share in which I was celebrating “sobriety time” I did not give AA credit for my success. I said that simply eliminating the alcohol had changed my life. In that share I stated that I had not worked the 12 steps. However, my life was going much better. I was criticized for not working the program. The people at that meeting were very uncomfortable my share. I was only telling the truth and I was very disappointed by the way I was treated but not surprised.

      You made this comment in your last post to me:

      “.But to stand up anywhere and take all the credit for our successes is just arrogant and delusional.”

      Now, I dont think you were implying that I took all the credit for my success or that I was arrogant and delusional. It’s not important here; if I did give credit to someone else for helping me. The issue at that time was; the group did not approve of the fact that I did not thank/compliment AA, the 12 steps or the fellowship. It wasn’t as if I criticized the program. The whole problem was; I didnt say what they wanted to hear.

      Not a thing wrong with giving AA all or part of the credit, if thats how you really feel. I dont give a damned but that was not the case with me.

      “To Thine Own Self Be True”

      • Wow I am so happy Amy you didn’t clobber me for saying what I did. No I did not mean at all that you are any of those characteristics. What I was trying to say is I don’t believe we do life all by ourselves.
        Now as far as AA members making you feel guilty for what you believed that is wrong and you are right to many members feel they can do that. It is wrong.

        • Steve,

          Oh, I believe you know that they “did not make me feel guilty in any way”. They made me feel “grateful” and I felt pity for them.


          • AMy and Steve. I did stop alone. All Alone. Then 2 weeks sober I met Tom Catton author of The Mindful Addict on the beach in Kailua, Hawaii. Now I was lonely and had no sober friends and already wanted to quit for ‘life” then.
            He was a great guy. Not a creep like his arch nemesis Doug Allmen, currently working for the VA in Temecula, the notorious 13 stepper of Hawaii and the 70’s…Ah am I bitter…I hope not…I thought I forgave him log ago…but many other young women did not make it as he used and threw them away one after another.

  110. I feel sorry for everyone who drinks the AA Koolaid. Good for you Amy for standing up and telling them the truth. And for catching the Stepper’s adhom attack and calling you arrogant. For whatever reason it seems like this site (LeavingAA) attracts a lot of people In AA or still under the illusion that it “works” or “saves millions.” I was coerced in by family when I was 19, however I learned that I was an “out-of-control alcoholic” way before then. I worsened almost immediately. I’m an atheist and I didn’t like the heavy religious/ceremonial aspect, almost as much as I didn’t like the fact that people lied and said it wasn’t religious, but “spiritual.” What I hated the most is that this intial, rational reaction of mine to this and many other nonsensical aspects of THE PROGRAM I had to repress, deny, and keep secret for the next 5 years as I tried to find some meaning in life when every “friend” and every family member told me I had a brain disease and/or “spiritual” deficiency. I’m glad I can understand all this now. I’ve been reading Combatting Cult Mind Control by Steve Hassan and am loving it. It may not apply to everything in AA, but hits very near the mark for institutional AA. I spent a year in such a “treatment” center: Information control, emotional control, thought control, and behavior control–all with the government’s seal of approval and financial endorsement, not to mention the near unanimous local reverence and unquestioning admiration-forget about all the former “patients” and “counselors” who have suicided or overdosed. Hey (and Steve might like this one): “Help doesn’t always feel like help.”

    • Ryan,
      I made a mistake in not being clear with Amy and I am so happy she did not slap me to hard…lol.
      I did want to say this though. Treatment Centers and AA used to be separate and in all reality they still are in a business sense. I understand it is hard to see where the Treatment center stops and AA begins or visa versa. I am saying this so as you learn more about the history of AA and The Treatment Industry and how they became intertwined you will see why they don’t work together.

  111. Ryan,

    Thanks for the great post and the book suggestion. I can really relate to this comment of yours.

    What I hated the most is that this intial, rational reaction of mine to this and many other nonsensical aspects of THE PROGRAM I had to repress, deny, and keep secret for the next 5 years as I tried to find some meaning in life when every “friend” and every family member told me I had a brain disease and/or “spiritual” deficiency

  112. Steve,

    You made this comment about a few of us on this site:

    ” Massive, Amy, Trevor and yourself have been very easy to read. There is a sensibility about your posts. ”

    Thank you for saying that because it’s true.
    Now, I feel the need to repeat something that I said to you last night:

    “If I sounded harsh in my reply’s to you the other day; it’s because I was a bit suspicious of what you were trying to say.
    Because of the radical pro aa’s that have a habit of being vague and then resorting to character assassination and personal attacks; Ive grown somewhat gun shy over the months that I have spent on the blog.”

    I have also learned to trust my instincts.

    • In time you will see this analogy, “what you see is what you get”.
      I have no reason to play games or purposely hurt anyone. If I think it is not working here or it is becoming unhealthy I will leave. I am not a fighter nor a liar.
      I am sincerely at a point in my life that I want to discuss AA in a different way the I ever have. I am not coming here to necessarily discuss the negatives of AA or the positives. I am mixed and a bit confused right now.
      The biggest reason I came back to massive’s site ( about a year ago I was on another of her sites but I left do to obligations) was because of the sensible calm posts that I read here. Yes there can be some passionate remarks but there wasn’t a bunch of arguing and fighting here.
      So I am new and I am trying to see if I fit in here right now.

      • Steve

        I really relate to your posts. I find most of the posts here thought provoking and challenging.
        I firmly believe that I benefit from the support I get from the “fellowship” of AA. I like the bits of AA that I like and dislike the bits I don’t ! If I could find something similar that didn’t have the wacky, unchanging programme of recovery I might give it a try BUT not found anything readily available in UK. I tend to go to meetings where I meet the people who make sense and avoid the nuttier ones. I have learnt a little bit of tolerance too – in as much as I can accept that what some people find helpful is not neccessarily right for me. But this doesn’t have to mean that they are right and I am wrong, just that we have different needs. Having heard a lot of shares (the honest ones – not the formulaic approval seeking ones) that people like us drank and used in different ways so its hardly surprising that we recover in different ways ! The one size fits all mentality is not for me.
        I just try to take the bits I find helpful and not let the rest of the stuff get in the way.

        • We just need to be careful when seeking help. I believe some AA members are trying to manipulate people into thinking they will always be this powerless, confused and weak individual who must depend upon AA to stay alive essentially. Massive, Amy and Ryan are right about this.
          I always thought if we were allowed to experience AA unobstructed and gather the information we needed then moved on when we felt it was time. The sites would not be needed I guess.
          But that is not reality and since we live in a world today where the Judicial System, Medical and Pharmaceutical giants and Treatment Industry view AA as a extension of them to do with as they see fit.
          Because we see AA and its faults so glaringly today I think it is easier to look at the history, its owners and anybody associated with AA in a negative light. AA whether they want to admit it or not brought this on themselves.
          LOL….as you can tell I am not very happy with AA.

          • Steve-I believe some AA members are trying to manipulate people into thinking they will always be this powerless, confused and weak individual who must depend upon AA to stay alive essentially.

            I agree! When I got sober no body did this back then and I am sure that is why I loved AA back then even though there were assholes. and 13 steppers. No body talked about being powerless except Tom C who recently wrote a book. ALl the older people talked about taking charge of your life. Powerless was a thing of the past. AA was very very different pre 1981 in smaller cities.

            When super money health care and treatment got involved it was down hill from there. AND AA in Los Angeles was weird when I arrived but I met some great people here too. Either way, I was too young when I was indoctrinated to the cult.

            Im happy I am out now. I feel like that Director/ Writer who wrote CRASH …he was in Scientology for 32 years. He wrote a great article about it and leaving. I hope makes a movie about it. Paul Haggis …that’s his name.

            I want to thank, Friend the girl aka ilse, MA, Anti D , Carolyn, Keeper, Gunthar 2000, casue and effect, Mona Lisa, Lucy, Sober PJ, Hank Hayes, Ryan, Amy Lee Coy, Evelyn, Dee- Dee Stout, Stanton Peele, Jack Trimpey, Ken Anderson, Tom Horvath, Harriet, Big John Radio, My teacher at UCLA, Kali, Gabriele Glaser and my hubby Kevin for helping me when I left AA and … leave AA.

            I AM ME, not something that some cult told me I was

  113. @ Steve,

    You said: “Treatment Centers and AA used to be separate and in all reality they still are in a business sense.” and are right! No money (that I know of) transfers hands directly from “Treatment” centers to AAWS Inc. or vice versa. But ideologically speaking, 12 Step “Treatment” Centers have become AA “on steroids” in many ways. There are many AAs, I’m sure, who would express disdain for treatment centers (i.e. they are “$30,000 Big Books,” etc…). I think this ostensible liberal AA mentallity is intentionally/unintentionally deceptive and actually paradoxically works to strengthen the legitimacy of both AA and “treatment” centers. What “treatment” centers do (forcibly impose the 12 Steps and “disease”concept) can be seen as “not really” AA, when, in fact, they are. Potential clients are led to believe that what they “offer” is somehow different. And AA gets them all when they walk out the door (i.e. “discharged”), fully informed now of their “deadly diseases” and how imperative it is they remain active, coffee-makin’ AA members until they die, placing their “sobriety” above all else as they stay away from “people, places, and things” so they do not wind up in “jails, institutions, or death”–teachings that are “not necessarily” those of AA.

    Fraud: deceit, trickery, sharp practice, or breach of confidence, perpetrated for profit or to gain some unfair or dishonest advantage. (

    • There are a hell of a lot of 12 steppers running /working in the treatment centres/rehabs, a lot of them jumped on the bandwagon when they realised there was a lot of profit in them.

      They somehow have convinced themselves that they are purely altruistic because they still attend their meetings, the oldtimers are the most corrupt bunch of slimebags i’ve ever come across.

      I wish there was something genuine for people struggling to get sober/drug free but the truth is .. you’re on your own, now as harsh and scary as that might sound, it’s the truth, and not as bad as it sounds, the majority who quit have done it alone.

      • I was contacted by a counselor last year from my stop13stepinaa blog who worked in a rehab in Downy , Ca somewhere…he is not in AA nor is he recovered. He’s normal. He is the only counselor there our of 13 or so not in AA. He contacted me for the postcards I made “Is 12 step not working for you” because he can’t stand all the AA speak and he said that with each group that goes through there is always one who hates AA and resists. He then gives them by postcard. I have them. If you need them I will send them to you free of charge. Or you can download the pdf and make some yourself on Vista Print for a very reasonable price.

        I had a Super Bowl Party tonight and I gave my engineer friend a Jack Trimpey book and my postcard. I told him he too is brainwashed. AA has brainwashed our whole society. WE must do what we can to change this. People die behind this.
        Ryan- HI ! It was good talking to you. I still feel your pain about your own life and your sister’s death. I guess cause I was 18, you were 19. It makes me so sad and mad at the same time.

        Thank you for contributing.

        btw Billy West is going to be on my radio show again soon and he will be talking about Medication, AD and finding professional help “not in meetings” .

    • Ryan, thanks for talking with me appreciate it. I said AA and Treatment Centers are separate entities because first they obviously are and second they both don’t answer to AA/GSO.
      AA/GSO has no T/C’s and they don’t independently through a charity organization operate them.
      I understand many addicts and alcoholics want to work at the centers but I don’t think because of that I can blame AA. I am not defaulting on this subject either. I just think by default anyone can say that since a lot of people who go to AA/NA work at T/C’s that means they are by default AA spin doctor organizations.
      Do I like that AA is being confused as a T/C, no. I think it hurts the T/C, AA and the person needing help.
      AA was not meant to be forced, coerced, taught sitting in a classroom or talked about in a counseling session. All AA was meant to be IMO was a design for living you worked on with another person. This commercial bullshit they are pushing today is just pissing people off.

      • steve- this is not true. Marty Mann, the first woman in AA, systematically planned to promote AA and for her first 5 years of running the American Council on Alcoholism she spoke at 200 presentations for 5 YEARS preaching and very directly promoting AA.

        Read Hank Haye’s new book YOU’VE BEEN LIED TOO…

        the NACAAA and AA are completely in bed with each other.
        AA bOards members are Wardens, Judges, Lawyers etc.

        WE have two Senators that I know of that own a piece of a very large and old treatment Center in the North East.
        If one exposed them to be getting a bill passed in Congress that made the health Care Companies continue to pay for treatment over and over again even though it has failed was attached to the BANk Bail out Bill in 2008. Did you know that?

        Now why would you want to have people recycled into rehabs that are only teaching AA 1936 Wacko religious philosopghy.

        They are not just getting a kickback. They own part in the rehab. They will stand to make millions when they leave the Senate and who knows. I do. Now you do. SOmeone is making a film about this aspect. I pray and hope that Frontline does an investigative story about it. Exposing it and stopping it.

        Remember the story on the front page of ST about the Judges in PA last year that were getting a kickback for sending teens to a private youth center like jail. This shit needs to stop and be exposed.

        I will get the links of of Stinkin-thinkin and post them.

        Steve, you don’t seem like a troll but I understand that when I first found ST and OP I was not ready to leave AA. But after 2 years as a GSR in LA OMG !!!!!!!!!!!

        The sickest F####kers I have ever met were in that group. Oh yea. out of 75 about 15 are ok.

        • Massive , did I missed something? What is not true about what I said, concerning the Treatment Industry.

          Massive wrote:
          Steve, you don’t seem like a troll but I understand that when I first found ST and OP I was not ready to leave AA.

          Steve wrote:
          Massive I have already left AA and have for sometime. I am not going back as a member.
          I told you if and when the time comes you think I am a troll or what ever I will know and I will leave.
          Why this inference must be said is bothersome. Amy said it yesterday and now you today.

          Hey I don’t feel 100% like you do and I have not mislead you at all.

          • im sorry Im very tired from a huge move and I was trying to get caught up on the reading of all the bloggers including you. I read more .

            Again Im sorry. I forgot that you said you left. You are just a little too pro AA for some of us, but no I don’t see you as a troll.

          • I will talk more tomorrow but for now The Treatment Industry is fully indoctrinated with 12 steppers and it’s a billion dollar industry.

            I can see you want to be involved in activism in some way, but I am not sure …have you signed my online petitions?
            Most pp on ST hated AA to the core for many valid reasons. When I arrived on ST they ate me up when I spoke of trying to fix AA from the inside. They were right although we did write literature and over 65 meetings are using it plus it was translated into Spanish and is being used in 23 meetings in Spanish as a poster. SO
            I did prove some of them wrong and made some big waves.

            However during the process I saw their “true Colors/ ANd they were absolutely evil.

            I need say no more for now.
            SO did Carolyn! ANd I think they are many of them insane….and abstinent, but many of them could use a good stiff drink if you ask me.

        • Hey Massive,

          Could you tell us some of your experiences during your 2 years as a GSR in LA? That would be some GREAT material for the site!

  114. Steve H said;

    “Why this inference must be said is bothersome. Amy said it yesterday and now you today.”

    Please dont pretend like you dont know why.

    Steven H. on February 4, 2012 at 11:33 PM said: In time you will see this analogy, “what you see is what you get”.
    “I have no reason to play games or purposely hurt anyone. If I think it is not working here or it is becoming unhealthy I will leave. I am not a fighter nor a liar.
    I am sincerely at a point in my life that I want to discuss AA in a different way the I ever have. I am not coming here to necessarily discuss the negatives of AA or the positives. I am mixed and a bit confused right now. I am new and I am trying to see if I fit in here right now.”

    I can not relate to your feelings of possibly not fitting in. I cant relate because I knew that I fit in instantly when I found the blogs.
    When I came to ST 10 months ago, I was at a point in my life where I wanted to discuss AA but I wasnt confused about the negative/positive aspects of AA. I needed to validate the feelings that I already had and express my opinions about AA; without being criticized. That is the whole purpose of this site. The people here have made up their minds; whether they have left or are in the process of leaving. Maybe you should just read for a while instead of expressing your confusion. However, IMO what you have been saying, does not look like confusion. You appear to be attempting to convince others that they could be wrong. I think we have all been very cordial and up front in trying to address your concerns. I think when you are challenged on what you have said; you turn around and take the middle ground. Possibly this forum is not a good fit for you. Looks like your not interested in a pro AA sites but Im sure there is something on the internet; that might suit your needs..

    Also, Steve if you would learn to be clear about what your saying in the first place, you would save yourself and all of us some time by not having to to come back and make statements like the following:

    Steve said;;

    “I hear a lot of yik yak about AA is religious and AA heaves it on you bla bla. I don’t understand why you (Massive) are not telling people that AA (members) are definitely not doing this.
    ….and never has anyone ever tried to ram god down my throat. ”

    Then I gave you examples of religion in AA (ex. The lords prayer) and numerous examples of reference to God, you said this.

    To: Amy
    I think you misunderstood me or I did not explain myself clearly. I was not trying to infer that I was supporting religion in AA.
    I don’t mind it because I can allow my fellow people (all people) the right to choose as they see fit. I personally am a agnostic and don’t really think much of man made religious practices or the spirituality they speak of. It is all convoluted IMO.

    Steven H. on February 3, 2012 at 3:05 PM said: Massive sorry for misquoting some of your life facts

    Steve H. on February 4, 2012 at 11:23 PM said: Ryan,
    I made a mistake in not being clear with Amy and I am so happy she did not slap me to hard…lol.
    To Amy: No I did not mean at all that you are any of those characteristics.

    Steve said to Massive
    “I noticed you have a radio show I wonder if you have ever had a person on, that asked you questions such as I have. I am not talking about someone that is going to be a jerk but a sincere questioner. Maybe if you are up for it I would like to talk with you.”

    When you made this comment; I dont think you were asking, I think you were insinuating that no one has ever really challenged Massive in a sincere way. Under the above circumstances, being; that you are confused and appear to have a lack of ability to be clear from the start, thus making it difficult to read you. I dont think you are in a position to be the one to do that.

    When I ask Steve if he thought that the program was the driving force behind the success in peoples lives or if was because they stopped abusing alcohol and found the power within themselves to accomplish some positive changes in their lives. “This was simply a question”.

    Steve wrote:
    “I think you can say both Amy. I certainly am not going to tell someone that they are speaking untruths when they say they credit AA philosophies for helping them become successful human being. I can also see where as you say Amy, that it is because they stopped drinking and used their common sense to accomplish positive changes.
    Amy, I just don’t think it has been proven without a shadow of a doubt that AA is totally wrong in all aspects and that it is hurting people. I think some members can go off the ranch so to speak and do things and say things that are inappropriate.”

    I never accused anyone of speaking untruths. I said that people are made to feel uncomfortable if they could not honestly give the program credit and I “never” said; It has been proven without a shadow of a doubt that AA is totally wrong. Do I think it has and is hurting a lot of people? My answer is; “Yes” and I think AA is a fit for some people. It look’s to me like you are twisting what I say at times and putting words in my mouth. Maybe that is another result of your confusion.

    These are just a few instances that lead me to question your motives for being here.
    Forgive me if the occurrences are not in consecutive order but I dont think that’s essential to the points Im trying to make.

    • Amy are you a admin here because if you are then I will take your advice and either not talk or leave. But I don’t think you are.
      I also do not believe that I am causing any confusion as of yet except for you. I am not being defensive I pointed out that you questioned my validity and I felt bothered by it.
      I am sorry I can’t pick up the drum right now and beat along with you. I am happy that you found this site beneficial. I do too Amy.
      Amy we just met and I guess there could be confusion. But know this, I told you I am not a liar. I did not come here to incite a ruckus.
      Let just see what happens.

  115. Steve,
    What exactly are you trying to say and what do you expect to receive from this site and it’s members??? I can see why Massive got confused….your communications are all over the place and mirky in meaning and intention. PLEASE ENLIGHTEN US.

    • Hey everyone I speak the same English language as everyone else. My comments do not hold a double meaning or are they misleading.
      I have not really thought that far when it comes to what I want to receive out of this blog.
      Enlighten you….lol. I am not there yet.

      • As stated previously, your communications are mirky in meaning and confusing to say the least. I am the 3rd person that has communicated this to you. So maybe your English has a heavy accent, because we fail to see your sincerity, “Me thinks thou protest to much”. Why so concerned about being a troll, that isn’t a normal worry for a new blogger-unless they have been one.

          • Steven, please try to understand that a lot of people who are contemplating/or have left A/a are very angry about having been duped, you can see it in CarolynK’s posts.

            This is perfectly natural ,i felt the same when i left,i vented a lot of my anger on the internet,it done me good, now i couldn’t give a toss about a/a or the culties in it, i do try to inform people of the damage caused by 12 step groups but i’m also aware that a lot of the up and coming alternatives are as bad, if not worse,this site is run by a very caring and honest lady and i thank her for opening it up after Stinkinthinkin shut down.

            God bless you all.

  116. I don’t have any probs understanding Steve but I can’t say the same for Carolyn. Mind you she couldn’t understand my answer to one of her questions either !

    • jonthebear,
      I guess like minds beget like. If I were Steven, I wouldn’t want to be classified in the same group as you. Your past precedes you jon.

      • Steven H.
        We are here to help people, while there are many whom want to convert the unwilling and attack the vulnerable. We do our best to provide a safe place for those in need. However, jon has been nothing but trouble and is trying to draw you into his web. If you really do need this site, I would ignore his tempting and soon taunting. He will get you no where fast. You can read some of his work in Dec/Jan time frame.

        • Hello everyone,
          About 14-15 months ago when I finally left the program, sites such O.P. and then Stinkin Thinkin, really helped me. I am very grateful that there were such sites available, as I found others that felt disillusioned with the 12 step doctrine as well. It was very reassuring to know that I was not alone in my thinking. I believe this site continues to help more people than we know, I know it continues to help me. For the life of me, I can’t understand why “the drive by’s” as I call them, would want to come on this site and try to argue a pro A. A. agenda. The purpose of this site is to offer support and discussion for people that are leaving or contemplating leaving AA/NA, hence the name of this forum. Pretty simple, straight forward purpose, wouldn’t you think?

          • Frank,

            Be prepared, Steve will let you know he has left AA.
            His “beloved AA”, as he referred to it the other day. He isnt sure what he wants from the blog. He said this to Carolyn today.

            I have not really thought that far when it comes to what I want to receive out of this blog.
            Enlighten you….lol. I am not there yet.

            Nice to see you Frank, I agree.

          • Frank wrote:
            “The purpose of this site is to offer support and discussion for people that are leaving or contemplating leaving AA/NA, hence the name of this forum. Pretty simple, straight forward purpose, wouldn’t you think?”

            Amy wrote:
            “Be prepared, Steve will let you know he has left AA.
            His “beloved AA”, as he referred to it the other day. He isnt sure what he wants from the blog. He said this to Carolyn today.”

            Your leaving one small bit of information out. The owner and admin when she got to Stinkin Thinkin wasn’t out of AA yet and she openly admitted she wanted to at least try to change AA from within. So I don’t know if it is that clear cut or is the expectation of this blog.
            I have read the mission statement by Massive but I guess I also took a liberty here to identify where she was at when she first got to Stinkin Thinkin.
            Listen I am going to allow Amy to continue on with what ever remarks she feels comfortable with. I will not be baited nor do I feel sensitive about her comments.
            I explained why I came here in my first post.
            I will continue this path and I will not be forced to make any decisions nor adopt any thoughts.
            I am truly happy for you folks. It is comforting to find a group of people who share your feeling and commitments.
            Let me be in my limbo and work out things at my pace. I have thought hard about making comments here because I don’t want to incite confusion or anger.
            So calm down a bit, please.

  117. Frank- Thanks so much for the post. I hope you, Carolyn and Amy can call in today to speak your mind about Leaving AA. That would be great. Maybe some others from the old ST crew can call as well.

    AS Admin of this site I saw this posting that was going on and it didnt get nasty so I let it ride. I was also still moving and it has been alot of work, and I have family and a life…so I missed some of the posts, But when you put it like you just did Frank…I am rethinking it. I may not alow any pro AA blogging at all.

    Again the way you see it really opened my eyes too. Thanks.

    • Massive,

      I believe I said basically the same thing as Frank on February 5h at 10:11pm in a post to Steve H:

      “I can not relate to your feelings of possibly not fitting in. I cant relate because I knew that I fit in instantly when I found the blogs.
      When I came to ST 10 months ago, I was at a point in my life where I wanted to discuss AA but I wasnt confused about the negative/positive aspects of AA. I needed to validate the feelings that I already had and express my opinions about AA; without being criticized. That is the whole purpose of this site. The people here have made up their minds; whether they have left or are in the process of leaving.

    • Massive ,
      It’s often hard to distinguish the pro A.A. ers when they first blog on this site. They first seem to cast their lines innocently in the waters but their true agenda eventually emerges. The honest program that they are working seems to be anything but honest. I personally think they are deeply troubled, but I guess that is understandable considering the program that they have bought in to. Anyway, love the site, it serves an important function.

    • WoW, so people who are confused about AA and what they want to do and come here and don’t cause confusion or incite anger will be asked to leave.
      Massive what if FTG or MA had done this to you for crying out loud.
      What if they said, I don’t care how much of a great person you are if you don’t say exactly what we want you to say, you are out of here.
      I read your mission statement/purpose for this blog and I thought real hard about coming here. I thought I would be safe but I guess I am not. Confusion is not allowed here.
      Guys I am not trying to subvert, for crying out loud!!! I have done nothing wrong here to any of you.
      Amy and Frank these are your issues not mine. I do respect them but I don’t believe your concerns out weigh mine.
      Hey it is your blog and your rules.

      • no steve its my blog. I have not asked you to leave. You are not saying anything that so far has offended me. You and the other bloggers get to disagree. I do not see mean spirited stuff. You can blog here. I have posted what I will tolerate or not.

        You are not breaking that code of ethics.

        Carolyn and AMy have a right to be mad so they are being mad.
        Im okay with that. WE are adults here having a discussion that would NEVER happen in AA. So guess what we get to have it here.

        ANd that ‘s right when I got to ST I was still a true believer. ANd they mad fun of me. I ran back to my stop13 step sight and did my activism inside AA and it was very painful. FTG would come to my blog after months of me not blogging there asking how was it was going. I really like her. She did let the trolls troll many times, even when they attacked me it took Anti Denial really sticking up for me …it was nice to have other bloggers caring when I was really getting ready to leave. I felt supported in the end. Some never said anything. SOme I got their personal emails and we really talked about it.

        I hope you get something from here and figure it out. You will.

  118. Wolverine,
    Thank you for trying to justify my anger from being duped, however, it is a lot my intricate and messier than that. I’m livid that AA, the Pastor, my group and the two co-secretaries (both hold professional degrees) who did nothing concerning my sexual assaults (they agreed that seven of the eleven assailants I mentioned were a problem-they had problems, as well). Then the two secretaries tried to get me committed insane for warning the parents of the church’s youth group of the sexual assaults have occurred. And if that wasn’t enough, one took my blogs, altered them and then entered them as evidence. I’m irate because these people will do anything to someone whom defies or denies the program and there is NEVER AN AMENDS. How come those steps are never followed? I’m still working through this legal mess. That’s what pisses me off not that I was duped!!! AA feels they are above the law (they told me they aren’t, however, their action or rather inaction states otherwise). This has far passed illegal; it’s frightening and is a testament to the sick people sitting next to you in the rooms! The criminals have all the rights and once they have exhausted every angle; then and only then do ones own rights begin. Again, I appreciate your support.


    Remember that our CONSTITUTION is NOT a LIST of SUGGESTIONS!!!!

    If you are physically, emotionally (bullied/intimidated/threatened), sexually or financially violated or assaulted in the ROOMS; it is against the law. Report any/all criminal/civil liberty violations. AA is not above the law (GSO told me that themselves) they work with the law (which GSO refused me). Any rate, AA members are held to our laws of the United States and don’t carry special immunity if they are in a meeting. YOUR RIGHTS FOLLOW YOU ACROSS THE COUNTRY; no matter who you are. Anonymity is not to cover up a crime, that is called “OBSTRUCTION of JUSTICE”! I have received top legal advice from the Attorney General to Gloria Allred to Erin Brochovich. I have many diverse concerns and they have helped tremendously.

  120. In the last few days; I have attempted to debate and understand some comments that have been made. I expressed my opinion on issues that I disagreed with and defended myself by pointing out instances where my words were misinterpreted or over looked. For that; I have been labeled angry, mad and accused of baiting.

    When I first started blogging; I questioned many things that were said but I kept it to myself because my self worth was so low that I didnt think what I had to say counted. Gradually, I gained the confidence to do so. I spend a lot of time trying to be accurate and tactful with every post before I hit “send”. I dont think anyone could say that I have been nasty or beligerent. At this point, I think I need to re-evaluate my purpose for being here.

    My self esteem was low when I went to AA and it got worse over the years while going in and out of AA. Ive said before on the blogs that I do not blame the program. I kept going back because I was never offered “any Other Advise”. It was a mistake for me and I dont consider it anyones fault. I wasnt angry when I left; I was fearful and confused. Ive worked that out and to discuss the positive aspects of AA with someone who feels differently is a waste of time for both of us. Ive come to the conclusion that it’s not healthy anymore for me to challenge anyone who is grateful to AA. It makes no sense when our experiences were so very different. I left because the negative far out weighed the positive IMO only.

    • amy
      Im too tired when I blog these days.

      I did forget that you were not angry when you left like I was…sorry for that mis posting and misunderstanding.

    • I am here to understand why I have so many conflicting thoughts when it comes to AA. I decided to come here because of Massive to tell you the truth. Her 36 years convinced me that if could figure it out so could I. I was with AA for close to 30 years.
      Amy, please don’t think of me as a enemy. I just can’t handle a debate right now. I have proved it. You folks don’t know me well enough and I don’t think I write with as much comprehension as I would like. English composition was not my forte. So we are missing one another’s points, I think.
      I respect your right to be here and to be validated. AA was not a safe place for you and I am truly getting that.
      You take care and I will do the same.

      • Steve,

        Thank you! Just know that I did not debate the issues for the sake of argument. Usually, when I post; it’s with the intentions of helping someone who might be experiencing the same confusion as I did for decades. Your right; AA was not a safe place for me. The last thing I needed was to be broken down anymore than I already was. I needed to by pass that part of the program and be built up. Therapy got me started on that process.

        I think I was upfront when I explained the reasons I was suspicious and I ask reasonable questions. I didnt believe that you were confused but It looks like your are. What they preach in AA can certainly do that to person. I hope you work that all out. Speaking from experience; “It’s a process” but ive come a long way.
        Good Luck to you

      • Steven,
        I had many trepidation about your posts. We have been attacked by numerous “trolls” lately and your “confusion” raised my eyebrow. Please accept my apology for my curt words. We are here to protect the vulnerable, frightened and confused person contemplating their exit from AA or recently have left AA. I believe you experienced my loyalty and willingness to protect the people who participate on this site. I have no problem with being labeled a “bitch”, “mad” etc for the emotional safety of the people on this blog. Many people “stumble” onto our site that have ulterior motives and have the biggest ego thinking they can change our minds by debating, attacking or belittling us. We try to keep that to a minimum, hence your intense scrutiny/profiling. Again, don’t hook up with jonthebear….he won’t bring you any favors!!

        I did want to make a comment concerning one of your posts. We can hang posters educating/warning people of the dangerous people in the rooms (GSO states it is up to the group to handle it and they don’t have any literature-bring your own). We weren’t talking about hanging pictures of people, however, if one does commit sexual assault/harass someone; it is their duty to their fellow members to speak up about it. Pretending it didn’t happen (as 2 sponsors advised me) will only beget more attacks. That was an FYI to all. If they get away with it, they will do it again!

      • Amy,
        I didn’t follow your example and hit “send” prematurely.

        I just wanted to express my sincere thanks for all the well thought out posts you have written. You have been on the ball and very helpful to many. You don’t realize all the “Lurkers” you assist. And Lady, your confidence and writing style has soared to an incredible level. What an asset and help during such busy times of the year and the owner moving. I believe she was able to rely on you and worry less. Thank you for your contributions. I think you are doing a fantastic job.

  121. Amy I second what CarolynK said. Your post was clear and precise. Thank you both for your kind words.
    I will be careful with my posts. For your sake and mine. I do not like to hurt people even unintentionally.
    Last, I do understand the constant badgering you members get from people with different motives. I am not that person. In time I believe this will be seen.
    Here is a piece of my confusion I have had. That AA members (enough of them) are telling others with less time that they will have to go to these meeting for the rest of their lives….one day at a time, of course.
    Now it isn’t so much that the members are saying it that bothers me. Some of the members have more on their plate then just drinking and on that note some aren’t really all there. Getting back to my point of, “it isn’t just the members”. It is the Courts, Judges, Parole Officers, Probation Officers, DUI Staff Counselors and Teachers, Psychiatrists, Doctors, Mental Health Staff, Treatment Centers, our next door neighbors and most of my friends and family. Everybody is saying once a alcoholic always alkie, you have a disease, you always have to go to those meetings…..America and the world is saying Alcoholics are doomed to remain the same. That bugs the holy hell right out of me. I just want to scream at all of them to STFU!!!!!
    There I said and I don’t care if you edit it.
    See I don’t believe initially AA was set up to go to meeting for the rest of your life. It was set up to get people through the steps (I am not saying the steps work) and out the door practicing your new way of life. Staying in touch but remaining out in life. This has been my experience or summations from reading history.
    Some how meetings became so important (maybe because when your drinking abusively you become alone) the focus became more on the meeting fellowshiping) then finding out why your life is messing up. IDK.
    My point is all these agencies finally all sort of got on the same page and determined that alcohol is a disease, it is a lifetime juggernaut and these alkies must go to a meeting for the rest of their life.
    Massive this is where the powerlessness comes in. Well if someone tells me this and I buy into it then in essence I have become powerless.
    Like I said guys this is stuff I have had rattling around in my head for years.
    Please tell me what you think.

    • Steven H,

      I never believed in the disease bit, once a person detoxes from whatever, then to me it becomes their choice whether to start the cycle over again. No one ever made me take a drink or a drug, it was my decision or lack of good judgement that got the ball rolling. It helps me to realize FINALLY, that the consequences of my actions do apply to me. I have found it much simpler to totally to abstain from getting high in the first place. I took me many, many years to finally understand this. I think the whole disease, powerless bit is very dangerous to the addict. In the event of relapse, I believe that sort of thinking renders a person hopeless and makes matters much worse. We have power over all of our decisions, not a Sponsor, not the group, no one else but us. Just my thoughts on the subject.

    • Steve,

      I would like to respond to your post in more detail but I have to many other things to take care of. I found this link awhile back and there is some very interesting reading. Her name is Cynthia Perkins and she covers a lot of; ex. Disease theory, spirituality, Nutritional, child abuse and more. I have it book marked but still have a good part of it to read. She had a serious drinking problem herself. Anyhow, some interesting reading in your spare time. Ive read the child abuse link and I could relate to much of it. I grew up in a very disfuntional family with an abusive father. Just thought you might get something out of it.

      One comment on powerlessness. This is just my opinion but I think many in AA use being powerless when it’s convenient. I could give lots of examples. Personally, when someone told me I was powerless, it made me angry inside. I bought into to some extent for years but absolutely no more. Im kind of all over the place because I dont have time and these are just opinions at this point in my life. I just wanted to share the link.

    • Steven H.-
      I post this frequently from the American Medical Association Wikipedia/Encyclopedia addressing the terminology of “Alcoholism” and how Bill W. danced around his claims.

      Misuse, problem use, abuse, and heavy use refer to improper use of alcohol which may cause physical, social, or moral harm to the drinker.[71] Moderate use is defined by The Dietary Guidelines for Americans as no more than two alcoholic beverages a day for men and no more than one alcoholic beverage a day for women.[72] Some drinkers may drink more than 600 ml of alcohol per day during a heavy drinking period.[73]

      The term “alcoholism” is commonly used, but poorly defined. The WHO calls alcoholism “a term of long-standing use and variable meaning”, and use of the term was disfavored by a 1979 WHO Expert Committee. The Big Book (from Alcoholics Anonymous) states that once a person is an alcoholic, they are always an alcoholic, but does not define what is meant by the term “alcoholic” in this context. In 1960, Bill W., co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous (AA), said:

      We have never called alcoholism a disease because, technically speaking, it is not a disease entity. For example, there is no such thing as heart disease. Instead there are many separate heart ailments, or combinations of them. It is something like that with alcoholism. Therefore we did not wish to get in wrong with the medical profession by pronouncing alcoholism a disease entity. Therefore we always called it an illness, or a malady—a far safer term for us to use.[74]
      In professional and research contexts, the term “alcoholism” sometimes encompasses both alcohol abuse and alcohol dependence,[75] and sometimes is considered equivalent to alcohol dependence.

      I hope this helps with your confusion; that we all have with many portions of the program. It is set up to confuse members with many paradoxes and contradictions. That’s why AA has numerous slogans to ward off scrutiny. They road block, degrade and side track your concerns with the unworkable program. Bill W. is quoted saying alcoholism is NOT a disease, yet the program quotes him incorrectly and pushes the disease concept to the point of nausea-um.

  122. I think it’s necessary in many instances to have a healthy fear of alcohol. However, every time I went to AA; I heard nothing but talk about powerlessness and constantly labeling myself an alcoholic, made “me” feel truly hopeless. So, id leave and drink.

    At this point in my life, I believe I drank because I thought I was powerless. It was easier to drink and avoid difficult situations in life and difficult people; rather than face them. I just didnt know how to. In my case, I think that had everything to do with the disfunctional environment I grew up in. I was out on my own at the age of 17 and I started drinking. Thats how I survived. The first time I went to AA I was 28 yrs old.

    Then I would get sober, feel powerful, good about myself and sort of looking forward to dealing with life even though it was scary. Once again, AA would tell me that my best thinking got me there, and I wasnt capable to make decisions without running it past someone. Im doomed to attend meetings where the conversation revolves around powerlessness, spiritual malady and character defects that require a lifetime of analyzing through these 12 step.

    The last time I went to AA I was 55 yrs old. I was unhappy in less than 30 days but I lasted 6month until I became severely depressed. Literally, I said; This is insane, Im getting to old for this and I have to try some thing different like leave and dont drink. In that situation, I felt powerless and I prayed for an answer because I do believe in a higher power. Yet, I dont believe Im powerless and should turn every thing in my life over to my HP.

    Forgive me anyone who has heard it before. I happened upon one book in particular that I could relate to which validated my feelings and recommended therapy. It was as if a light went on. I went to a couple meetings after that. One of those; being the one I spoke of a couple of days ago where my truthful share at 6 months sober was a disaster. 🙂 That was 16 months ago.

    I think AA makes life more complicated than it already is. AA has some good basic ideas. I think they overdue it and they carry it to extremes, to say the least. Dont remember how it was years ago. If you buy into all of it; you will spend your life trying to figure out who you are. Everyone has character defects that surface throughout life but you work on improving yourself (sometimes running it past a good friend) and you move forwad. Unless, you have some kind of serious personality disorder that interferes with your personal growth. There are a lot of people in AA like that and the program will not solve that problem. They need professional help.

    Sorry for going on but I didnt plan to. I guess the powerless issue is one that pushes my buttons.

    • I absolutely agree with you, Amy. If AA could view “powerlessness” as what can happen after someone who relies on alcohol or drugs to deal with life starts drinking; I can absolutely go with that. Or even what happens in my life when I’m drinking out of control. But if I don’t have alcohol in my body I have some power to do something to better my situation as long as their is breath in my body!

      I have been around people spouting “powerlessness” and character defects to the point where I’ve obsessed for days about what a miserable failure I was simply for not “taking a daily inventory” on my every thought. I end up depressed and miserable at the end of these obsessions. In fact, those phases rendered me almost powerless, like someone mentally in chains. I cannot accept a way of life that has me analyzing my every motive for every breath and always finding fault with myself. The end of that road isn’t pretty, it’s drinking or suicide for me. Some of the people who were considered to have worked the “best” programs that I got sober with now struggle not to drink. I believe they hit a wall with the self-imposed misery, just my opinion. But the truth of the matter is, how do you trust a friend to be a sounding board when all your AA friends are living under the idea that they will have to soundly lecture you for having a problem in the first place? There is no way to even have true friendships in this situation. This is why I have very few true friends today and was never able to allow myself to trust very many women in the fellowship. Who wants to endure a lecture if you so much as blow off steam about your boss or something?

      • Hi Amy,

        What a great post!

        I have seen so many “attack the victim” scenarios in AA over the years, it’s not even funny. People need friends that understand them and share their feelings, not a bunch of self appointed half-crazy wanna be psychotherapists on a mission from God.

        I just had to out grow AA, it’s just too draining and the people in the program are definitely “fellows” and not friends! They are just too programmed to have normal healthy realtionships if they “worked the program” or too selfish and narcissistic to be friends if they haven’t.

        I have met so many ragingly angry oldtimers who paste a veneer of serenity over their rage until they find a newbie to take out their judgement and condescension on. It’s just better to be away from it.

      • bcm,

        When you said;
        Who wants to endure a lecture if you so much as blow off steam about your boss or something?

        Boy, could I relate.
        This is why I rarely shared during or after the meetings. I knew that if I discussed any problems I was having that I would not receive any positive feed back. I learned the hard way that I would be asked if I had a sponsor and had started working the steps. That would start right from the beginning; as a newcomer. I think its because they dont know what else to say. Like robots that just repeat what they have been programmed to say. I knew that even if I had done the steps, then it would be, as you mentioned; “Are you taking a daily inventory”. Followed by a few choice slogans like; “Give it to God.”

        The inability to discuss my problems intelligently, like I did with my non AA friends, left me feeling lonely and isolated. I even shared at a meeting once and said that I felt very empty. I even cried and after the meeting only one person said; “I use to feel that way. My sponsor recommended that I go to more meetings.” Well, I took a yoga class for awhile, went to the movies by myself and read a lot of good books instead. This is why I rarely socialized with people outside of the meetings. My true friends always remained very important in my life. One in particular helped me tremendously when I left AA.

    • Amy,
      Excellent post!! You brought up so many good topics.
      1) The constant labeling and reminding us that we could never drink again-If I told myself everyday, I am a chocoholic or on a diet and could NEVER have chocolate again; all I would think ABOUT would be CHOCOLATE!! I was so tired of hearing what I couldn’t do and not of what I COULD DO.

      2) Powerlessness is only to get you subservient to AA and become a life-time donor/member. If one lives in the solution and not in the PROBLEM they have/develop coping skills to live life. However, constantly degrading yourself by: labeling/negative talk (living in the problem), ruminating over “DEFECTS” all are detrimental to one’s self esteem and not conducive for individual recovery. You can’t improve in any area of your life if one concentrates on the negative and doesn’t propagate a positive way of life!

      3) Therapy helped me discover WHY I drank and what I was hiding (fearful) from. Best money ever spent……I DID NOT HAVE AN ALLERGY OR DISEASE…..I had a traumatic childhood.

      I know Amy just said a lot of this, however, it feels good to state it and concur with others. Thank you

  123. Thanks, bcm, frank, yo and Carolyn,

    I really appreciate your responses. I went to sleep last night wondering if I had said too much but it was truth and i could have said more. I still question myself when posting. However, it seems the longer Im away from AA; the clearer things become.
    I said enough to keep me up until 2am. Ughhhh !
    Your response is very rewarding to me this morning.

    Off to work soon. Have a nice day !

  124. If the meetings described here are typical of AA in the States then I clearly would not have lasted very long.
    Never thought that the big book was meant to be taken literally. It is clearly a post factum attempt to describe what might have contributed to the first few members stopping drinking. In that respect I see it as a shotgun rather than a sniper’s rifle. Some of the suggestions are helpful to some of the people some of the time. The process of working out which bits may be of help is part of the personal journey we all have to go through.
    Take the “powerless” issue for example. I have never heard anyone telling me that I am powerless to run my own life and make my own decisions. However it has helped me in two ways. First it made it possible to me to accept that my attitude to drinking was unlikely to change and that rather than worry about why I drank abnormally (not really sure that I ever had any desire to drink normally !) and that it was simpler to live without alcohol. Secondly I have come to terms that I am powerless over those things that I am clearly powerless over. For example before I got into recovery I was inclined to believe that when I didn’t get the results I wanted it was my fault. If only I had behaved differently, made a different approach, used different tactics, presented myself differently etc. etc. I would have had the dream dream job, relationship, lifestyle or whatever. It now seems easier to believe that whilst I can influence other people, I clearly cannot control them.

    As regards labelling teenagers who get drunk and people who commit offences while inebriated as “alcoholics” and packing them off to a 12 step program or 12 step based treatment – well its unacceptable, bizarre and very frightening.

  125. jtb

    Thanks for sharing. I read your post and I dont know if you read mine but my experiences in AA were not at all like yours. The majority of the people on this site, have had very similar experiences to mine. By the way, Im not denying yours.

    For me there were not enough suggestions in the BB, to make it worthwhile; in assisting with any personal journey. Especially, not enough to justify it being used as reference guide for a way to live life; as Ive heard many in the program say that they do. As far as your not taking the big book literally; most of the people I was around over the years did take it very seriously (there bible).

    Unlike you; when I finally realized that AA was not for everyone who had a drinking problem, stopped repeatedly labeling myself an alcoholic and gave up there idea of powerlessness; my personal journey began.

    • Amy

      Thanks for your post. I do read yours regularly and to be honest if I had had your experiences I wouldn’t have continued my attachment to AA for very long. So I understand and respect your views and your decision to leave AA. And you certainly seem to be doing very well.

      As I have mentioned before things are a lot less rigid in my bit of the UK. I think a true cult would probably have burnt me for being a heretic a long time ago ! I am not denying that we have our fair share of “Big Book Nazis” – a lot are barking mad but others just seem to have a different belief system to mine – and I am sometimes concerned about the direction AA is going.
      Thanks again

  126. jtb

    Im not say you that think AA is for everyone, who has a past of abusing alcohol or those who label themselves an alcoholic. I dont know if you do or not.
    May be confusing the way I put that.

  127. This is why I picked the blog to come to. The respect people have for one another.
    I am enjoying the exchange.
    JTB, there is no way we can say AA hasn’t spun off it wheels.Because it has especially here in the states. I don’t recognize it at all any more.
    I have read what Massive has written and I have to agree now. The more I think about it the “powerless” theory that is being taught in AA today, regardless where it is coming from is wrong and unhealthy. What majority of the members of AA are saying today is that unless you stay with your meeting, sponsor or fellowship you will drink again which = death.
    I can no longer argue this truth.

  128. JTB,
    I have seen your posts, although haven’t read them thoroughly and considering our past interactions; I must ask if you are friend or foe??? It’s seems at the moment you are on board with our site.

  129. I attended a meeting to support Keeper of The Birds yesterday. I drove for hours to see her to a small, dingy room. SHe asked me to come because she said there are alot of Predators there. ANd Although her son was murdered by his sponosor and sexual abused she goes still once in a while to speak her mind.

    Her story is unbelievable. And she is such a powerful woman. Even in her sharing you can see all the therapy work she has done. WHen she tells her own story she does not sound like a victim. ANd believe me her story is one I have never heard.

    Even after she shared, because she really nailed AA and the Sexual predator problem, many did not hug her or shake her hand. They are cold and a callus group for the most part. Her story is heart wrenching.

    SHe also asked me to speak and introduce her for 10 minutes. Which I did. I told my story of being 13 stepped, of Kali’s story, of the Make AA Safer Workshops and the room began to squirm. A few men got up and left right away. Then a few yelled out it was an outside issue. I told them ” No it’s not!”. Then I had to tell one woman it was my turn to speak and when it was her turn she could speak.

    I talked about alternatives (sorry for the word) like Smart and so did Keeper. More got up and left. I kept right on going about how my dad hated AA , etc how he died. Then I addressed the people that were retreads. That AA wasn’t working for. WOW the lights in their eyes were loving me while the rest were hating me. I didn’t care. I spoke to them. The 5 that just took a 30 day chip. After I was done there was a break. Two very young guys came up and thanked me. Anyother older guy said shaking his head ” thanks so much for bringing this topic up, I’m so sick of it all”.

    Then another man came around the table and apologized for their rude , bad behavior yelling out at me. I said “Its okay. I have had worse done in a General Service Area meeting.

    All and all I felt so good to be there for Keeper. Certainly they are not there for her even with her horrific story. What does that say about them. I will say this, having two young sons ages 17 and 21. If I only helped them, they two young guys look at AA differntly….and trust me they are going to go home and google alternatives to AA….I am glad. I hate to see young people go to 12 step anymore.

    And the people who AA has not worked for are also going to go home and google this stuff Keeper and I mentioned. I brought my pamphlets for her and I handed out two to the young guys.

    I also talked about how the literature is ancient and they need to write a new book.

    There is a line in Chapter 3 which they read its says ” science may one day accomplish this , but it hasn’t done so yet” SO that is how I started my talk.
    ABout the fact that they read this literature over and over again from 1936 and science has come along way in the past 75 years ie the difference between the Dentist and my OBGYN in 36 and now.

    Thank God for all the Spiritual work , meditation and chanting I do. Unlike 2 years ago in AA, I didn’t feel their hate. I know it was there but all the work I do and have done….I felt like there was a amour of steel supporting me and its didn’t hurt. I have learned to block it out , even at a close range.

    • I really don’t know what to say to that, though I would have really appreciated hearing that at a meeting especially being told that AA/NA was not the only way.

      I think you were really brave to go right into the lions Den 🙂

      In terms of writing a new book, I have experience of the NA basic text which has been changed beyond recognition in some parts and a change to one of the editions nearly brought NA down from the inside – actually that might have been a good thing! 🙂

      • Neiko- yes the lions den for sure.

        It did feel that way. But Keeper is a pretty powerful part- Native American and we both were carrying our Eagle Feathers for protection. ( she gave me one). 🙂

        Thanks. I did feel from those that took the newcomer chips a great sense of recognition and appreciation.

        Also when the guy yelled out…”your in an AA meeting” I said ” that’s right….and if we really care about the suffering newcomer then we would not care if they leave AA and go somewhere else like Smart or SOS or WFS, right… OR just blog and read a book.

        “We would want to really help them no matter where that help comes from. Right?” He shut up then. Trust me I said this very passionately as well. The rooms seemed to be filled with alot of hypocrites.
        They say they wanna help. Sure. But it has to be there way, even if the BB says ” we realized we know only a little.

        The pompous arrogance is way over the top in AA these days.

        • Love it! It’s great that you have the knowledge and you know the literature, very powerful!

          I’ve been brave with the Orange Papers now and I just love the way he throws the ‘contempt prior to investigation’ straight out on his opening page 🙂

          I used to think ‘open-minded’ meant putting my toe in different fellowships, I now know that phrase in a whole new way. And I thought willing meant travelling 2hours to see my sponsor, naw!!!!!

          I’ll get back to you when I find out what honest means, there certainly wasn’t much of that in XA! 😉

          You could have saved those poor newcomers lives, or at least from a world of believing in powerless and a made up disease 🙂

  130. Yes, WFS is very helpful. Lots of support and info on how to stop destructive drinking and how to stay stopped, what to expect he first year like PAWS and helpful nutritional information. Self esteem building skills, coping skills, all good stuff. What you would expect from a program that is supposed to help someone stop drinking, lol. Plus the boards are a great place for women to vent their fears and issues, give and get support. Not all the F2F meetings are alike as a lot of them can be very similar to AA meetings. I am fortunate to live near 2 F2F meetings so I go to the one that focuses solely on WFS material. WFS has it’s downside as there is a lot of disease talk and a lot of the women also do AA but overall I think it is great. Thanks for asking 🙂

    • etp- interesting. I saw AA’s disease influence at the last Smart meeting I went to. But over all the meeting was fantastic. A great leader and each person really gets a chance to wrk through some current stuff. No drunk stories! LOL GLad to hear you are good. 🙂

  131. Hi All

    Was just coming to this site through Google, and this is one of the Google ads that popped up:

    So, AA should never be for profit, eh? Perhaps one of you might like to buy yourself a gold AA medallion for $1320 ? Could be the perfect gift in order to show your gratitude to your control-freak sponsor or that asshole who 13-stepped you!

    I don’t know if JR Harris ever visits this site, but maybe would be an excellent commercial outlet for him to flog his Spiritual Doorknobs from.

    (Seriously, I think this site must be AAWS approved as they’re using the official AA logo, even on their briefs and panties.)

  132. I saw Narcotics Anonymous is going to stop allowing people to download most of NA booklets, because they said people were printing them and selling them. So know there is a price for the still suffering addict by having to purchase literature. Up until know it was FREE.$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ All about the money.

    • Renegade NA who want to bring down what they call NAW$ (inc) have the literature to download for free:

      A lot of die hard NA bods are deeply unhappy with how NA inc is making money from NA and are trying to change it from the inside. It’s interesting when Massive talks about the AA basic text being mostly unchanged since the 1930s because there has been so much trouble in NA over the NA Basic Text having I think 6 editions now.

      It’s all a mess – I’m so glad that I’m not a part of it. Actually on that note, I have 2 AA big books and one NA Basic Text – what did you guys do with your old literature? Burn it, bin it, keep it for posterity, keep it for a laugh? I would love to know 🙂

      • I have all of mine. I have to use it to discuss on my radio show. like my son says Keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer.

        Or did he say know your enemies. Truthfully about a few months ago I was so ready to burn some Al ANON book i found. Boy was it stupid. I was ready to dump it in the trash and my son mentioned those words.

        I think NA would have not grown as much as it did if it had not written it’s own Big Book. Now I think too bad. I dont hate NA like I do AA. NA addressed sexual predator s at the World Level when a woman was raped by a guy who answered a help line for Narcotics Anonymous. NA’s Board is younger and not as closed minded as AA’s. They are also poorer.

        But I know some of them pretty well.

        • I didn’t know about the stuff that on at world level Massive, it’s just awful isn’t it? I sometimes wonder how much the XA name needs protecting from the inside to avoid the ‘public controversy’ – theft at area level here got covered up for the sake of NA unity as ‘God would sort it out’.

          I used to hate the NA text when I started on the AA programme cos I thought they had changed it so much that it didn’t make sense, of course I realised that none of it made any sense in the end! NA actually ‘suggests’ 90 in 90 in the edition I have. Now I can’t even bring myself to look at my AA books.

          Maybe I will keep them incase I need them for reference in the future, I am very undecided about what to do with all my literature right now and am moving house, certainly all my clean time key tags will be going!

          • neiko- I will get rid of all my coins after I finish shooting my film. I will donate them to my old meeting. OR maybe I will just throw them away. I will keep you posted.

            I have to admit some of the literature I just want to throw into the trash.

            Do what feels best for you. There was a whole thread on Stinkin thinkin where everyone was burning it. There is even a youtube video where a guy was shooting his BB. It is really funny.

            You are not alone.

          • I would love to hear more about your film massive – I am a film maker, I actually have a Masters in TV and film 🙂
            I was going to make a film on 12 step about 8 or 9 years ago when NA failed me the first time! I remember being really outraged by the fish eater’s anon meeting in finding Nemo! I actually got some really influential people to agree to be in the film but my anger subsided (then) and I made something totally different for my Master’s project in the end – still got a commendation though and I was still taking heroin quite chaotically at that point – amazing to think what I could achieve without a habit 🙂

            Oh and I binned the keytags with great pleasure and my christian friend came over and burned my big books as she decided they were works of satan or something – I didn’t stop her but she wouldn’t let me film it – pity really it would be on YouTube by now!
            I also burned my reams and reams of step 4/10 whatever step it was columns – took a long time and a lot of very toxic smoke came off them – I can’t believe how much time and effort I put into writing all that bs!

            Funny thing is – since I stopped doing 12 step I haven’t had a single resentment – well except with the WHOLE of XA but I won’t be doing columns on that one!

        • From what I see Narcotics Anonymous is still doing NOTHING about sexual predatory behavior within groups. Let’s not forget that BOTH AA and NA are promoting sexual offenders to the same meetings as minors. NA still considers it an outside issue. Even though NA is going into our high schools and recruiting new minor members to be subjected to very unsafe meetings.

          In Hollly Hill Florida, NAWS did nothing for a community being terrorized by NA members.

          • anti d – I know you are right… About all of it. I just have a few friends that are good folks, however you still are right 100%.

          • We both agree there are good people in AA and NA. Some know many policies are wrong and do nothing, and some rationalize the policies and really think everything is fine the way it is.

            But whether it is intentional or unintended, the vulnerable including minors become collateral
            damage of AA/NA/CA and Judicial Policies.

            ‘The road to hell is paved with good intentions’

  133. Here’s a question for you guys…

    I am fed up of hearing that AA/NA has saved ‘millions of lives’ – where does this information come from and why is it perpetuated? Am I smelling yet more bullshit!
    Is there any documentation to confirm this or should it be re-written along the lines of “AA has sold millions of big books, 12 and 12s or given out millions of desire chips?”
    Or maybe, just maybe HAS AA/NA infact saved millions of lives? I’m inclined to think not.

    Very angry again today!

  134. Neiko- Sorry to hear your frustration…but I understand it for sure.I was a at a party last night where I was approached by a woman who was having such issues with AA. It was not working for her, she said. When I agreed and explained where I was at after many years, she began to say this exact thing.

    She said ” Well I have a relative who has been a parole officer for 40 years and he said that AA is the only thing that works. I sad flatly ” no it doesnt . That’s just not true.
    AA is a bismal failure. SO we talked, we did not argue. I told her about Smart and the other choices. I got my literature from my purse and gave it to her. SHe really liked it.
    She felt like she wasnt doing it right. SHe had years and would drink and would be sober and then drink.

    She began putting herself down to me , a stranger how she didnt like being told what to do by a sponsor. She was a classic example of all we discuss here.

    I told her, “why do you need a sponsor to tell you what to do.”? You are an adult. That part of AA is really insane, I said. She agreed. It seems where-ever I go I meet someone who feels like this. So I always make sure I take my literauter with me where ever I go. To my haircutter, she too is a member I found out after a year of her cutting my hair. Now she hands out my literature. Both is 12 step not working for you and the Make AA Safer Pamphlet.

    There are no studies Neiko. There are no millions either. AA is declining. Last years the BB sales were down $100,000.

    I encourage you and anyone to become more active. Hand out our letter to all the professionals that you know. Therapists, Police, Lawyers, Judges, Hair stylists. Anyone you know, Just tell them that AA is dangerous.

    If you just tell them that judges are sentencing 3rd level sex offenders and violent criminals un beknownst to its members…. you have done something for our cause.

  135. Hi again

    I have really learned a lot from my visits here. It has prompted a lot of reflection on my recovery. I am also grateful to whoever posted the link to Danny Schwarzhoff’s group where I have learned that I am not a “real” alcoholic and am killing people by going to AA and claiming that I am an alcoholic. Never realised I was so powerful!

    I will try to make this my last post. Its nice to reflect on these issues but I find recovery a bit like playing my guitar – if I think too hard and meticulously about what I am doing, I stop being able to do it properly.

    Carolyn K asks whether I am friend or foe?

    Although it is extremely uncomfortable I guess I am sitting on the fence. So, although it is not my intention I suppose I stand a good chance of pissing off both pro and anti 12 steppers. A lot of the things complained about here are not yet commonplace in the UK and I hope they never will be. For example I had no idea that minors were sent to 12 step based rehabs and expected to attend AA/NA meetings.

    Clearly the exploitation of vulnerable people is wrong. And furthermore the institutional covering up of criminal acts is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!

    I don’t believe that anyone should be coerced to attend AA meetings – by the judiciary, probation or whatever. And AA should not cooperate with such activity in any way.

    I also had no idea of the huge amounts of money involved regarding AAWS. GSO UK – I think – had a total income of around £1.5 million last year. So I don’t think anyone is getting rich this side of the pond.

    And I certainly disagree with over controlling sponsors and members being encouraged to have no life outside of AA.

    Anyhow just to clarify my thoughts today about AA


    · Abstinence from alcohol is the answer for people whose problem drinking was similar to mine.

    · Alcoholism is a clinical entity, multifactoral in origin, difficult to diagnose and poorly understood.

    · Bill Wilson was a human being with significant flaws

    · The twelve steps were NOT handed to Bill Wilson on tablets of stone by a supreme being.

    · The book “Alcoholics Anonymous” is a collective attempt by early alcoholics to explain what had helped them to attain sobriety AFTER it had happened. Thus it is likely that everything that may have been helpful to any individual is included as a suggested aid to recovery. Hence we are left with a program that does not attempt to address individual needs based on the severity or the roots of their problem or take any real consideration of any other mental disorder. Just a one size fits all!

    · Attempts to statistically evaluate the success or otherwise of AA or various treatment modalities are inherently flawed and easily manipulated.

    · AA is not the only way to get well.


    · AA has helped me

    · And I have seen it help others

    So I think I will continue to go to AA.


    I think I have been fortunate that I have been able to find what I need to have a fuller, happier and more enriching life. I was lucky that the chief counsellor at my treatment centre (the devout atheist) gave me good guidance as to what help I should look for from AA. That gave me the strength to take what I found helpful and tolerate the weirdness. In a perverse way that seems to have empowered me to take responsibility for my own recovery. To be open minded enough to try some of the things that have worked for others but to be prepared to reject them if I found them to be unhelpful or damaging.

    I have made some true friends within AA – a lot of whom have done AA “properly”. They are from the happy, tolerant, honest sub-set in the fellowship that treat recovery as a bridge to normal living and (sorry to quote) live in the solution not the problem.

    I will do my best to keep the AA meetings I am involved with as safe as possible for all. I will certainly be a lot more vigilant having read the posts here

    Good Luck to you all on whatever pathway you take towards recovery – and thanks for putting up with me


    • Jon- I agree with some of your posts and I know that AA in the UK is not as big as the US.


      You are welcome to blog anytime as I was a blogger too on Stinkin thinkin when I was still very much “in AA”. The world is big enough for both. Take care.

      Thanks for keeping AA safer and if you want me to mail you my Make AA Safer Pamphlets. Let me know, I will send free of charge.


  136. Just want to say hi to all and i am still around. Gave a copy of the BB to Head of Ward of addiction clinic (not private) and reply was:
    ‘Thank you for the AA Big Book, I will endeavour to improve my knowledge base, for further debate with my colleagues. I shall return the book to you when I have finished reading it’
    (not sure to make of this but, poor woman, having to read that tosh)

    • why did you give them the bb? Not a copy of Smart Recovery Workbook?

      btw great to see you here. 🙂 I miss ST!!!!

  137. I was chatting with her about what rehab means, and I was surprised that she hadn’t read it. It is remarkable how many people have not read it. I even mean people in AA who haven’t read it.

  138. I just heard the show, Massive. I couldn’t log into the chat room to chat but it was great to hear your voice. Still fighting the fight here. Hxx

  139. What is Gunther’s site called? My laptop died and I lost loads of links.
    Did Jill survive her 6 month ordeal?
    Spreading the word over here.

  140. Hi there all, does anyone remember a quotation which SoberPJ quoted a couple of times on st, along the lines of ‘never expect a change of mind/the real truth/something like that, from a man who’se livelihood depends on it’ Meaning that people who run rehabs and sober homes etc make a good living from it so we can’t reasonably expect them to tell the truth.
    Does anyone remember? Spencer something? Norton something?

  141. No. Wish I did. There has been some family tension with me writing or saying anything against AA. I have 3 family members expressly still in and sponsoring (though 2 don’t even meet diagnostic criteria for having drank ‘alcoholicly.’) This is a very frustrating Organization. I used to be nice to one as I was glad she was making friends and getting involved, until I learned about emotional and psycholigical abuse and the cult mind control tactics of AA, I refuse to speak with her. Above all, there is a strong desire of my parents for ‘us’ to ‘move on,’ after Sara’s death, which, perhaps, is healthy for the time being but, for me, on principle, I will never pretend that I don’t know why it happened. Would prefer not to get too personal, but my sister wrote a note in which she overtly expressed her beliefs that she was ‘genetically’ and ‘spiritually’ defective. I wonder where she got those ideas from? I’ve also turned into quite an ‘asshole,’ for lack of a better term when considering AA or blog posts amongst members. I have no patience. I don’t care how ‘nice’ they may sound, the fact is that the believe they have fictitious diseases and work to inculcate others with their flawed beliefs and cult program. It is sad. I didn’t post here but I wrote my brother with several tragic stories of ‘clients’ of the ‘treatment’ I underwent and even he couldn’t bring himself to blame the modality.

    It also got to the point where I didn’t really want to think about it much more, much less have something on the internet tied to me. I tried recreating it on wordpress with a much simpler format where people could just post people in AA who they new who killed themselves or overdosed, but I just checked it today and it dissappeared! Quite frustrating 🙁

  142. I don’t really know where to post this note, these thoughts of mine so will post it here.
    There is a quote from the front of “The Art of AVRT”, by Jack Trimpey. It takes a whole page of its own.

    “I won’t tell you my story, if you don’t tell me yours.” – Jack Trimpey

    I laughed the first time I read it about two years ago and it still goes through my mind when I hear “stories” and drunk-a-logs. So with that spirit, one in which I wholehearted agree I won’t bore you all to tears with another sob story of how rotten my life was nor of how unfair the whole crappy mess of living seemed to be. Enough to say it was or sure felt that way.

    I have about a year and a half of not ingesting any alcohol into my body. It has been quite a trip and one in which I have spent a great amount of time, in and around AA trying to figure out.

    I was told in a 28 day stay in a treatment center that treatment was discovery and that in AA I would find recovery. I was also told in treatment that they had a 97 to 98% failure rate. They didn’t tell me why, when I asked, other than to say, “Well, we are alcoholics. What we do is drink.” In the back, no, in the front of my mind I thought, “Thank you for that information… The food was pretty good here but not really worth the $14,000.00 dollars I spent to eat it nor for your words of great wisdom.”

    I did go to AA and even got a sponsor. He was a great guy and one I could relate to since we both rode Harleys. Never did do a real fifth step. Or maybe I did and will do another one right here in case I missed it or did something “wrong” It was and is pretty simple. Ready? Here goes. Please avert your eyes if you cannot handle this kind of rigorous honesty… I am guilty, guilty guilty of every one of the seven deadly sins. Whew! What instant relief I have received from telling you all about that! I didn’t bother telling god or myself since we already both knew just how guilty I am… I know that my “share” probably comes as a great shock to all of you.

    I was told a couple things in AA. One was, “Fake it till ya make it.” That one seemed a bit odd since they had told me at the same time that I had to be, “Rigorously honest”. They also told me to, “Take the cotton out of your ears and put it in your mouth.” now that one I could relate to very well. So I sat back and listened and never really shared one time in a meeting. More than a few things about AA left me scratching my head and one was the concept of a Higher Power. On one hand they said that no human being could relieve me of my alcoholism and on the other hand they said I could use the group of human beings as my higher power. That one really left me wondering what they meant. One of the other problems I had was God and what “he” would or wouldn’t do. I could only take so much of AA’s arguing over what a higher power is, or who he is? Or, where he is? Oddly enough I could still sort of comprehend what I read in the Big Book with my alcohol soaked and damaged brain. It could be that I am still wrong today (Doubt it) But it all seemed to point to a very theistic God “of my understanding”. I really had no problem with that but really wish they would have spelled it out in the first place rather than beating around the bush. I have always believed that if a concept becomes to watered down it means nothing. If anything seemed powerless it seemed to me to be the nebulous concept of God.

    My biggest problem/argument with AA comes down not so much to the “higher power” idea but to what God will or will not do for me. It comes down to; if I believe in this god of my understanding removing my “defects of character” then what happened to the idea of free will? I believe that free will is a birthright that will never be taken away. Why would god give me something and then take it away? Even the Bible seemed to be pretty cut and dried on the issue that the choices I make in my life are my own, my very own and I own them. If you want to go back to a biblical idea of free will you can go right back to the beginning. The idea that ol Eve made a choice to eat from “The tree of knowledge”… Seems to me that a bunch of us have been blaming the “devil” ever since rather than taking on personal responsibility… God sure didn’t step in Eves way with some kind of “intervention” so hell, who did I think I was to think he would intervene in my life? Little ‘ol me who plopped on the earth after a couple billion before me? Seemed to me to be more than a bit of a narcissistic way to think.

    Ah, responsibility. What an eye opening thought to me. A “spiritual experience” if I ever had one at all. This to me meant true freedom. Free at last to either make good choices or crappy choices of my own free will. I had tended to make some really, really crappy choices! God didn’t have to bite me in the ass. Life itself would do a fine job of biting me in the ass depending on the choices I made. It may sound ridiculous, and it is, but it took me 51 years to accept responsibility for my life and to quit playing the poor me blame game.

    So………. I can’t with any amount of honesty look an AA “newcomer” in the eye and say that God will do what he/she can’t do on their own. That pretty much sums up why I have left AA.

    At the same time I offer no real condemnation of AA. It was pretty silly of me to think that there was some easy way out and it is also embarrassing to say that I would go against some very core beliefs I had concerning God and accept the fact that I bought into a cult for as long as I did. I accept the fact and the responsibility that I was gullible enough to think that in AA I would be offered any kind of lasting solution to my very real problem with alcohol.

  143. Welcome Kent. This is the perfect place to post or on the WHY I LEFT AA thread.
    Im glad you saw it sooner then I. But I was very young and gullible when I got there.

    There is one point you made which I think is so poignant in regards to AA right now , and that it you said, I believe that free will is a birthright that will never be taken away. Why would god give me something and then take it away? Even the Bible seemed to be pretty cut and dried on the issue that the choices I make in my life are my own, my very own and I own them.

    In a nutshell. Awesome post. Thanks for being here and writing your story. I do a radio show every week on Tuesday on where we explore other options besides AA and I tear up what I see in AA that is a lie and harmful.

    • Yes, I absolutely concur on “free will”. That’s a biggie for me, how do we have free will and give it away, when it was a gift from spirit to begin with? And to hear people drone on and on about how they “gave their will to God then took it back” and all Hell broke loose, WTF????? That never made any logical sense to me at all!!!! Why not be honest and say “I had free will, made a screwed up decision, and it had consequences”. But to even talk about a bad decision in life, you have to couch it in a bunch of total nonsense that everyone else has to pretend makes sense. It’s like a scripted play, you know your lines, say your lines, but know it’s written for you deep inside.

  144. I have been reading this site for a while now and thought I’d make a post. I am not an alcoholic, although for a while I was convinced that I was. I was never a member of AA, however I did attend several meetings but I didn’t get overly involved with them because I sensed they were just off somehow and many of the members had a weird look in their eyes. I do, though, have several Facebook friends who are active AA members. I live nowhere near these people anymore and they don’t realize that I am not an AA member nor do they realize that I drink. I don’t drink excessively, I am a moderate drinker, but I do drink. Despite the fact that I was convinced for a while that I was an ‘alcoholic’ I have since rejected the disease theory and I have proven to myself that I can drink without an issue.

    The reason I am posting today is because of a Facebook post that I saw this morning. A guy had posted that it was his 40th (holy crap, he’s only 64 years old) AA anniversary and that he was going to a meeting to speak. This man is a hateful, racist person who chain smokes and hates everyone. He is verbally abusive to all around him and lives in a dinky, drab apartment that is paid for by welfare because he cannot hold a job. The comments he was getting from people were all things like ‘Good job, man, you are an inspiration, I want what you have!’.

    I was amazed by those comments. How could anyone want what he has? If that is what you get for being 40 years sober I want to die drunk.. What a miserable existence.

  145. Green Bean- thanks for the post. Welcome!

    I recently have been contacted by a few others who entered AA as a teen or early 20’s, left AA after 20 years sober and are drinking moderately & Successful. Im really to happy stories like yours now.

    Now about the man with 40 years. What city is this guy in?
    Just curious. AA is filled with these creeps. They should make a commercial advertising that AA is this way.

  146. Thank you for the welcome. I am always happy to hear about people who start drinking moderately after years of AA membership as well. It proves that it can be done.

    The man I was talking about lives in New Jersey, near Delaware.

  147. Green Bean,
    Now all we have to do is get the Media to stop promoting Abstinence like prohibition is still the law!

    Marty Mann surely did her job! Without her, AA would still be tiny.

  148. Massive,

    Checking in after a leave of absense. Did speak with some therapists in the interim at the behest of my brother and am now regretting it. Warning to all ex-steppers interested in therapy: BE VERY CAREFUL MENTIONING HAVING BEEN IN AA. I like to think that there are some out there who don’t promote or sympathize with it, but I’m sure they are very rare. For me, exploring it created far more confusion and frustration than it was worth. I think it would be far more worthwhile to join a book club or an art class of your interest (and cheaper). I’m taking jazz guitar lessons, for instance. Why? Because I want to and I prefer not paying to defend myself every week (no matter how comfy the chair or couch may be). One seemed open-minded but I realized it is not my job to explain the inadequacy of AA to someone in the field when numerous publications by colleagues and others are and have always been available for them to read and consider (psychologist and conventional addiction treatment critic Stanton Peele published his first book nearly forty years ago). The most amenable one I encountered didn’t take health insurance (not that I have any) and charged a rate that would leave most full-time employees in this country eating their meals at a homeless shelter. I’ll keep working on my arpeggios.

  149. Hi Ryan,
    I agree with you about therapists. I had one who told me she was into Smart and she was BUT she was also an AA member which she did not tell me until I had seen her for a few months. I too felt like I was explaining the problems with AA at every session. Why should I have to pay to educate her or argue with her about AA? Very frustrating to say the least and costly. I had another counselor after her who felt the same way I did about AA because of her experience with stepper clients. She could see first had the damage AA was doing to her clients thought processes. She was very glad to meet me and learn from me what she always privately thought about AA. But again I felt like I was paying to educate her. I think that someone who wishes to leave AA and has a lot of fear about that ought to see an exit counselor who specializes in leaving cults as that is exactly what AA is and what is needed when leaving.

    • I had an experience a lot like this recently after leaving. My psychiatrist(who knows my stance on NA/AA and respects it) thinks I may have adult ADHD and wanted me to do some diagnostic tests to figure out what is going on there. Well, I had to meet with this woman for an intake appointment to get the testing done. Pretty standard medical/psychological background interview. She got to my drug and alcohol history. She asked me about if I attended meetings, had a sponsor, if I was working the steps, etc. She acted all surprised that someone would decide to leave and go it on their own. She even said something really similar to the “it works if you work it” line. Unbelievable. I told her I didn’t want to discuss it any further and she wouldn’t let it drop. After all, it was a meeting to discuss my background for an ADHD test, not an intake for drug rehab. She brought it up again a couple more times and I told her we’ve already gone over that and that she should drop it or I was going to walk out the door. She got all apologetic and asked me to stay and that she wouldn’t bring it up again. I don’t know if it was because she felt bad about getting me pissed off, or if she didn’t want the money to walk out the door. I’m still working on the testing for diagnosis, but I really hope that little incident isn’t going to affect the results. I guess I’ll see what happens when it’s over.

      • EXNA, that sounds like a horrible experience. Good for you for putting your foot down. What makes me angry is that once you let ANYONE know you have a history of drug and alcohol problems THEY instantly become the expert and their expert advice is go to 12 step meetings. It’s especially frustrating when it happens within the theraputic commuinity. It really is unbelievable the amount of promotion and brainwashing AA has done in ALL of society not just us over drinkers who were led there.

      • exna- I agree with etp- this is horrible and one of the main reasons I am fighting this fight and making a film as well as speaking at schools etc. Im going to my local police captain next. Then to my city counsel. We have a great letter to professionals if you want it. I can send it to you. As well as my letter as to why I left AA after 36 years.

        How dare this person ask you if you have a “sponsor” .

        CUlt, CUlt and more cult is all I can say. She is an obvious stepper.

        Again Im sorry to hear this and I hope to hear how it turns out. Its cool how you stood up for your self.

  150. ryan & ept – This is a very good argument for for is so seriously wrong with the system. People who have been damaged by AA should not have to ediacte professionals as to how AA is so messed up and doesn’t work and God… who would send their kid to a dentist who was reading his manual from the 1930’s . Agreed.

    But because it’s so bad I feel I have to do it. Spread the word. It makes me so mad when I think of how many pp like you and your sister and ept were hurt, some even to the point of suicide.

    I am so glad that you are taking guitar lessons. I really need to get back to singing and playing music myself.

    etp- But again I felt like I was paying to educate her. I think that someone who wishes to leave AA and has a lot of fear about that ought to see an exit counselor who specializes in leaving cults as that is exactly what AA is and what is needed when leaving.

    Maybe this is something that eventually we will have as support. I agree. She should have not charged you for sessions where you are educating her.

  151. I have been reading this book “Take Back Your Life Recovering from Cults and Abusive Relationships” by Janja Lalich and Madeleine Tobias. I think this book is excellent and greatly describes my thoughts, feelings and experience after I made the decision to leave AA. I emailed Dr Lalich and specifically asked her if she knew Alcoholics Anonymous is a cult. She replied and said “yes, it’s an excellent example of a bounded choice cult. I thought that was interesting. I would like to start a group for people who want to leave AA and I think this book would be an excellent source of reading material for such a group.

    • Thanks for the book on cult psychology- I’m gonna buy a copy. The more I study the functions of AA old timers I have known over the years, the more I realize they are what they are and I just have to stay clear of nuts like ’em. I think that counseling may be a good solution, and have seen some people in AA, who also did years of analysis, grow as a result- but it’s big bucks to do that.

      I am a big fan of EMDR for people who have suffered trauma. I have had 2 friends who used that method and did definitely benefit from it.

      On to a new topic, I was tremendously tempted to send a couple of pizzas and bottles of soda to my old OA group in Florida last week. The people in OA are just impossibly angry and I ran from those jerks. Basically, OA makes people hate themselves for overeating, like everybody is supposed to be thin. What BS, people’s eating needs are largely (70%) defined by genetics. So some people are gonna be fat and die younger, big deal! Last time I checked, nobody gets out of this world alive anyway. It would be amazing to see the group respond to a stack of meat lovers pizzas and a gallon of soda! Half of them would be “ok” with having just a slice (and then go home and binge) and the other half would be pointing fingers and passing judgement- it would be pandimonium. And you know no food would be left behind! LOL.

      Ok enough humor!

      • yuk- I have known a lot of OA nuts. I only know one who as sane.

        They are usually the most unhappy control freaks I have ever met!!!

  152. Agree. It’s easy to play it down after leaving. I’ve been out about 8 months and still occassionally think of communicating with former stepper ‘friends,’ but am glad that I have been able to avoid doing that. It’s nice to hear there are some counselors that do think likewise. Like I said, I talked to quite a few who unequivocally did not. Some even placed or I immediately felt would soon place a very debilitating diagnosis on me I will not mention here, but I believe such stigmatization creates ‘symptoms’ and destroys people just looking for a little help. etp and Massive, it is terrible that people are being thrust into the system of no exit. Some I know would like to leave but feel so stuck. I think of my sister and sometimes wish she just went to more concerts or could just be a hippie for a little bit and smoke pot-fuck it (most everyone grows out of it anyway). All that effort to stop her from being who she was killed her…Staying away from therapy for now I know is the best thing for me. After all, some of the coolest people I ever met who were helpful to me were not therapists or encountered anywhere near a self-help group. Happy Cinco de Mayo!

  153. That’s funny Yuk yuk. I have had similar fantasies of spiking the coffee at an AA meeting just to get them all to loosen up. You reminded me of what happened when I first went to AA. It was not long before I was led to an OA meeting by an AA friend and I took on the label of overeater. Then it was Alanon and CODA where I learned I was co-dependent then DA and I became a debtor. I finally went running from the whole thing when I started going to SLAA meetings. Makes me wonder if those labels created problems where none existed.
    Ryan, I do miss my stepper friends and going to meetings. I have to admit that. What I don’t miss is being over analyzed and controlled. I had a stepper friend that I played music with and I told her once that I went to a club to see a woman perform. She had a fit saying that I was not being loyal to her by going to see her rival. Talk about control issues. Sometimes it subtle sometimes it’s not but the control is always there.

    • I heard a story once that two guys who were PO’d at a group in New York city that mistreated them went into the meeting with Super Soakers filled with vodka and hosed the room.

      That’s pretty damned sick, but given the behaviors I’ve observed over the years I believe that story to be easily within the realm of possibility.

    • etp- Im coming soon. 🙂 We could have our first meet up near you.
      I’ll send you a private email. Im already reading 5 books. I am almost finished with Hank Hayes book. He has some really good exercises to improve self image and such. I think AA really harms this.

      Im looking into getting more involved with the Documentary Community.
      I see how this AA stuff makes me so mad. I want to hang out with other like minded people.

      I just watched Nurse Jackie…wow…what a commercial for AA. She never even drank, she was a pill addict, and we never saw her high…but she’s going to AA….wtf? SO how many stupid people will go to AA because of her and this show? Too many.

    • a very old -old timer man took me to SLAA (some years later I heard he was taken into the mental hospital while attending AA) my male sponsor was also in the mental hospital couple years ago while attending AA and working his programme) at the time i was railroaded into slaa i had been celabate for 8 years pre aa i was faithfull to partners i didnt go out every night on the prowel for sex.i went to 3 meetings and bought there book they consider that if a member of the opposite sex shakes your hand they are wanting to have sex.I wonder why i was taken to SLAA but the old timers who sexually abused me werent taken there.

  154. Great Massive! Looking forward to your visit. Hank’s book is good. Plenty of very helpful information in there.

  155. I just spotted this recent article regarding 13stepping in AA::

    Are You Safe From Sexual Predators Or Murderers In An Alcoholics Anonymous Meeting?
    Posted by cougarblogger on May 10, 2012 in Controversary

    How many steps are there? Twelve, right? Wrong. There are Thirteen. “Thirteenth-stepping” is a euphemistic term used among members of Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) to refer to people (particularly men) who target new, more vulnerable members (typically women) for dates or sex. Previous research suggests that women frequently experience sexual harassment in 12 step meetings.

    • Hmmm…. I’d like to see suicide stats for people who are
      1) in AA sober and out of AA sober.
      2) those who are in and out of AA drinking
      3) and finally those who are in AA sober vs. out of AA drinking

      I’d also like to see the relative suicide stats for the samples above for those using street drugs and those using prescribed pain meds.

      There’s is really not enough data here to statistically define AA as a factor in the suicide- though given my experiences it’s highly suspect.